Like Tree5Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-29-2010, 17:27   #51
Full Member
Points: 1,659, Level: 23 Points: 1,659, Level: 23 Points: 1,659, Level: 23
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Devil Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by HighDesertWolf View Post
Because............ how exactly do a 338 fed, 338 win mag and 338 lapua over lap??????????? yes they all the same diameter but thats all they have in common....learn some ballistics and its quite self explanatory..............
Excuse, me. You presume I know nothing about ballistics. How did you make that assumption? I was asking to enlighten us and received common knowledge. Reading easily available ballistics charts is not convincing.

And you have yet to address how your assumptions are even relevant. Care to start over?
__________________
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em."
Lt. General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC
Devil Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010, 17:30   #52
Full Member
Points: 1,659, Level: 23 Points: 1,659, Level: 23 Points: 1,659, Level: 23
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Devil Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by BlkHawk73 View Post


So how many fps does a cartridge need to have v another cartridge to have it be "far enough apart". Same with ft/lbs? I'm pretty sure the game animal won't be able to tell the difference and range isn't going to be an issue with either.
Good summation, BlkHawk. It was, how should I say... relevant.
__________________
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em."
Lt. General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC
Devil Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010, 20:01   #53
Full Member
Points: 14,278, Level: 77 Points: 14,278, Level: 77 Points: 14,278, Level: 77
Activity: 11.9% Activity: 11.9% Activity: 11.9%
Last Achievements
 
HighDesertWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cherry, AZ
Posts: 1,482
Originally Posted by Devil Doc View Post
Excuse, me. You presume I know nothing about ballistics. How did you make that assumption? I was asking to enlighten us and received common knowledge. Reading easily available ballistics charts is not convincing.

And you have yet to address how your assumptions are even relevant. Care to start over?

do you care to start over??? I never directed anything at you personally but yet you jumped on me!!!!
__________________
HighDesertWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010, 20:13   #54
Full Member
Points: 14,278, Level: 77 Points: 14,278, Level: 77 Points: 14,278, Level: 77
Activity: 11.9% Activity: 11.9% Activity: 11.9%
Last Achievements
 
HighDesertWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cherry, AZ
Posts: 1,482
Originally Posted by BlkHawk73 View Post


So how many fps does a cartridge need to have v another cartridge to have it be "far enough apart". Same with ft/lbs? I'm pretty sure the game animal won't be able to tell the difference and range isn't going to be an issue with either.

when you consider variables such as different grain weights, SD's and BC's velocity differences become a major variable and even 100 to 200 fps less or more at the muzzle can make tremendous performance difference down range....

you either want to learn something or you dont??? im done arguing with you armchair ballistics experts...... anybody can look at a ballistics chart and pass judgement on a cartridge performance level.....
__________________
HighDesertWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010, 21:27   #55
Full Member
Points: 10,047, Level: 66 Points: 10,047, Level: 66 Points: 10,047, Level: 66
Activity: 3.6% Activity: 3.6% Activity: 3.6%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Mountain West
Posts: 637
Originally Posted by Perferator View Post
Since the .32 Special is pretty much obsolete due to age and being passed up by so many other rounds.....I wont say this one should be kicked out, out right. But I gotta wonder, "what were they thinking" when this one was legitimized. There must be a good reason that I'm missing (probably due to my not reading up on it more).

I think the only reason the .32sp held on was due to it's being chambered in the winchester lever actions.
I remember reading in a gun magazine some time ago about the .32 Win. Spl round's development. As I recall, it had something to do with the advent of smokeless powder and its use in the .30-30 negating the use of black-powder in the new Win. Model 94 and other contemporary makes. Many old black-powder holdouts lobbied the gunmakers to provide a platform that they could continue using their pet loads in and that's where the .32 Win Spl came into being.

The article explained that it didn't make a lot of sense either then or now to most people, but money talks and Winchester didn't want to lose part of their market segment to the competition. Not being an expert on BP myself, I don't understand how smokeless wouldn't be able to out-do BP under any circumstances.
hoplophile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2010, 01:03   #56
Full Member
Points: 14,278, Level: 77 Points: 14,278, Level: 77 Points: 14,278, Level: 77
Activity: 11.9% Activity: 11.9% Activity: 11.9%
Last Achievements
 
HighDesertWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cherry, AZ
Posts: 1,482
Originally Posted by hoplophile View Post
I remember reading in a gun magazine some time ago about the .32 Win. Spl round's development. As I recall, it had something to do with the advent of smokeless powder and its use in the .30-30 negating the use of black-powder in the new Win. Model 94 and other contemporary makes. Many old black-powder holdouts lobbied the gunmakers to provide a platform that they could continue using their pet loads in and that's where the .32 Win Spl came into being.

The article explained that it didn't make a lot of sense either then or now to most people, but money talks and Winchester didn't want to lose part of their market segment to the competition. Not being an expert on BP myself, I don't understand how smokeless wouldn't be able to out-do BP under any circumstances.

in those days folks werent handloading with smokeless yet, at least not for a few years later after the introduction of the 30-30. theres lots of different ideas and theories on this subject but I personally believe it was based more on bullet construction and selection more so than the powders.
__________________
HighDesertWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2010, 06:40   #57
Full Member
Points: 1,659, Level: 23 Points: 1,659, Level: 23 Points: 1,659, Level: 23
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Devil Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by HighDesertWolf View Post
do you care to start over??? I never directed anything at you personally but yet you jumped on me!!!!
HDW, I asked you to enlighten us on your knowledge of ballistics and why what you said was relevant. In your first response to me you said "learn some ballistics and its quite self explanatory...". I then asked why you made the assumption I know nothing about ballistics. Go back and reread the thread... Now, who jumped who?
__________________
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em."
Lt. General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

Last edited by Devil Doc; 08-30-2010 at 11:13. Reason: spelling
Devil Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2010, 20:25   #58
Full Member
Points: 14,278, Level: 77 Points: 14,278, Level: 77 Points: 14,278, Level: 77
Activity: 11.9% Activity: 11.9% Activity: 11.9%
Last Achievements
 
HighDesertWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cherry, AZ
Posts: 1,482
Originally Posted by Devil Doc View Post
HDW, I asked you to enlighten us on your knowledge of ballistics and why what you said was relevant. In your first response to me you said "learn some ballistics and its quite self explanatory...". I then asked why you made the assumption I know nothing about ballistics. Go back and reread the thread... Now, who jumped who?

do you understand what ballistic coefficient is? take a said bullet of say .308 dia in 165 grain then take multiple bullets of different design and construction that all meat the criteria of 308 cal 165 grain. Most if not all will have different BC's if you pushed them all at the same velocity the laymen may believe they will all fly the same which is sorta true at short range but when you get into longer ranges their points of impact can vary as much as a few inches to a foot or more from each other. this why its good to have multiple loadings that offer different levels of velocity even as petty as you may think 200 fps is it can be absolutely crucial to have that extra 200 fps to hit your mark but then in some application you may not need or want that extra 200 fps because of added recoil maybe in a lighter weight hunting gun that wont be used beyond 200 yards and its nice to be able to go to a lighter loading. So yes 200 fps differences between cartridges is relevant in my opinion.
__________________
HighDesertWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2010, 05:13   #59
Full Member
Points: 4,455, Level: 42 Points: 4,455, Level: 42 Points: 4,455, Level: 42
Activity: 1.2% Activity: 1.2% Activity: 1.2%
Last Achievements
 
bquick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: East Tn.
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by HighDesertWolf View Post
do you understand what ballistic coefficient is? take a said bullet of say .308 dia in 165 grain then take multiple bullets of different design and construction that all meat the criteria of 308 cal 165 grain. Most if not all will have different BC's if you pushed them all at the same velocity the laymen may believe they will all fly the same which is sorta true at short range but when you get into longer ranges their points of impact can vary as much as a few inches to a foot or more from each other. this why its good to have multiple loadings that offer different levels of velocity even as petty as you may think 200 fps is it can be absolutely crucial to have that extra 200 fps to hit your mark but then in some application you may not need or want that extra 200 fps because of added recoil maybe in a lighter weight hunting gun that wont be used beyond 200 yards and its nice to be able to go to a lighter loading. So yes 200 fps differences between cartridges is relevant in my opinion.
using your own definition of B.C. you have omitted some ballisticly superior cartridges and left in some duds.
bquick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2010, 06:40   #60
Full Member
Points: 8,778, Level: 63 Points: 8,778, Level: 63 Points: 8,778, Level: 63
Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,162
Folks, I'm not a mod, but can we stop with the ****ing contests, please? Thanks.

Jim
jimbobborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2010, 11:49   #61
Full Member
Points: 1,659, Level: 23 Points: 1,659, Level: 23 Points: 1,659, Level: 23
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Devil Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by jimbobborg View Post
Folks, I'm not a mod, but can we stop with the ****ing contests, please? Thanks.

Jim
And the congregation said "amen"...
__________________
"You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em."
Lt. General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC
Devil Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 13:48   #62
Full Member
Points: 1,454, Level: 21 Points: 1,454, Level: 21 Points: 1,454, Level: 21
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
whtsmoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kearney Mo.
Posts: 78
Sorry guys but the correct answer to this is keep them all, isnt that what we as shooters have wanted VARIETY and we have it.
__________________
We were brothers then, We are brothers now, We are brothers forever. CURRAHEE
whtsmoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 19:53   #63
Ray
Full Member
Points: 963, Level: 16 Points: 963, Level: 16 Points: 963, Level: 16
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 30
I think the .358 Win cartridge could be dropped from production. Simply because .358 Win cartridges are incredibly easy to make from .308 brass. The only thing I see getting from commercialy produced .358 brass is a head stamp that .358 win.

Last edited by Ray; 03-03-2011 at 23:26.
Ray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 21:21   #64
Full Member
Points: 5,539, Level: 47 Points: 5,539, Level: 47 Points: 5,539, Level: 47
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 405
As long as someone owns a gun in that caliber, there will be someone who needs that ammo.

I would love to pay less for my ammo, but not everyone shoots the same as me.

@ side convo
I agree that 5.56 is not the best battle round, nor a great medium to large game round, but it does the job for either if it needs too and it's a great plinker. I think the biggest problem with 5.56 is that people get carried away with them... I cant see the sense in having a $3000 tacticool super carbine in a caliber that is a glorified .22 WMR.
GDKPIKPWG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 23:39   #65
Ray
Full Member
Points: 963, Level: 16 Points: 963, Level: 16 Points: 963, Level: 16
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 30
I'm new here so bear with me, but I don't understand the sentiment of making an incredibly popular cartridge such as the .223/5.56 obsolete. Seems to me to fly in the face of logic and the OP original intent for starting the thread...

Last edited by Ray; 03-03-2011 at 23:39. Reason: I to an o fat friggin fingers
Ray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 02:42   #66
Full Member
Points: 1,766, Level: 24 Points: 1,766, Level: 24 Points: 1,766, Level: 24
Activity: 3.3% Activity: 3.3% Activity: 3.3%
Last Achievements
 
Win_94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 153
Originally Posted by Devil Doc View Post
Tailgunner, not necessarily true. Police snipers have a choice and they choose .308 Win.
I don't have a dog in this 308 vs 30-06 fight, but was under the assumption the police used the 308 because it has the least energy of the factory sniper set-ups; therefor less of a chance of a pass-through injuring innocent bystanders.

If I was a military sniper, I would want a 338, or something that will remain supersonic at ranges beyond 2000 yards. The 308 isn't in contention.

I don't agree with the article. The market determines demand and in turn price. Have the market discontinue a cartridge well liked as the 30-30, and I'll start making them. Supply and demand, that is what drives prices.
__________________

...nuff said.
Win_94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 06:19   #67
Full Member
Points: 5,539, Level: 47 Points: 5,539, Level: 47 Points: 5,539, Level: 47
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 405
^What he said. Capitalism will assure that these calibers stay around.

After all, one day I'll run out of 7.62x54R spam cans and I'll need to buy new production.
GDKPIKPWG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2011, 04:08   #68
Full Member
Points: 1,042, Level: 17 Points: 1,042, Level: 17 Points: 1,042, Level: 17
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
83Enforcer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18
Very interesting; I'll throw my 2 cents.

1. All cartridges based on .223; .308; 30-06 are here to stay in the US. Many will fall in and out of favor, but will always be viable and commercially profitable.

2. These three cartridge families will cover every living thing on the planet ........ yes everything. The 30-06 can be loaded to .300 win mag. specs and perform similarly. Hornady even commercially loads a 30-06 magnum cartridge. My loads are freakin' hot!

3. Because all three families of cartridges are manufactured in such large numbers, they are less expensive to produce and will eventually push all others aside. Reloaders only need .223; .308; and 30-06 cases to reload any in the family. Again, cheaper and more commercially viable. Capitalism at work.

4. We have a bias towards these cartridges because they are OUR MILITARY cartridges. They will always be around when others fail.

5. The "Big Bore" .338 to .50 cal cartridges are just farking kick arse; bloody your nose; in your face awsome. Who wouldn't want those around! they'll stay because..... hey we're men, and we like to have the occassional neanderthal, grunting experience Neanderthal experience aside, we're not all farking stupid when it comes to dangerous game and two legged predators.

6. Any cartridge that can be loaded into a lever action is here to stay; heritage and romance will always keep it around. Can anyone say "cowboy action shooting" or "SASS".

7. Any cartridge in the .22 rim family is useful.

8. All cartridges that fit in the above categories I'll keep; the rest can go. However, because of us darned reloaders; the "rest" will continue to linger. There will always be a few who just want to be different

9. Snipers get whats issued. They generally have little choice. Those decisions will be based on familiarity and whats most economical. .308 gets the nod in all category's.

10. Snipers, if given the "choice" will choose what's most accurate; efficient; comfortable to shoot and what wins. Thats why .260 Remington and .338 Lapua are gaining favor in the inner circle.

Last, I love the Enfields and Swedish mausers; if the American mfg's choose to drop the cartridges, I'll buy european and continue to reload.

Last edited by 83Enforcer; 03-05-2011 at 04:32.
83Enforcer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 03:03   #69
Full Member
Points: 897, Level: 15 Points: 897, Level: 15 Points: 897, Level: 15
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kaysville,Utah
Posts: 23
I still prefer my 118 year old cartridge the 7x57 Mauser. If it had not been invented you would still be using 30-40 Krags and 45-70's. The 30-06 was based on 7mm's head design along with all the other cartriges using the .473" rimless head design. The 7mm Mauser has ample power for all N.A. game and some African game without the heavy punishing recoil.
Crazy Reformer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2011, 04:01   #70
Full Member
Points: 810, Level: 15 Points: 810, Level: 15 Points: 810, Level: 15
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7
I would not go out hunting without my 6.5x55 swed, or my 7mm Mauser! You can scrap the .25's and the .26's, there is no need for them. It's all a bell's and whisle's marketing ploy to get people to buy new guns. My 7mm Mauser was made in 1895, and it will out shoot almost any "new" gun...
tasman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2011, 09:01   #71
i like the details
Points: 3,444, Level: 36 Points: 3,444, Level: 36 Points: 3,444, Level: 36
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
thinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas hill country
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by tasman View Post
I would not go out hunting without my 6.5x55 swed, or my 7mm Mauser! You can scrap the .25's and the .26's, there is no need for them. It's all a bell's and whisle's marketing ploy to get people to buy new guns. My 7mm Mauser was made in 1895, and it will out shoot almost any "new" gun...
6.5 IS a ".26"
thinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 11:23   #72
Full Member
Points: 17,777, Level: 84 Points: 17,777, Level: 84 Points: 17,777, Level: 84
Activity: 1.8% Activity: 1.8% Activity: 1.8%
Last Achievements
 
45K20E4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,120
We all now these rounds are only produced because the gun companies want to convince us we NEED another rifle/pistol in that caliber.

Sure, variety is always better, but I only need 3 or 4 calibers to do it all in the civilian context:

.22LR /.223 /.308 /.338

The .223 could be covered by the .308, but my .223 is a carbine, whereas my .308 would be a bolt rifle. A .300 or .338 magnum can do everything else needed, assuming you need it at all. I will likely NEVER engage anything beyond the effective range of a .308 in civilian context, so the magnum rifles are unnecessary for me. Elk hunters on the other hand..........
__________________
A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.
45K20E4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 20:29   #73
Full Member
Points: 897, Level: 15 Points: 897, Level: 15 Points: 897, Level: 15
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kaysville,Utah
Posts: 23
I only need components for 4 rifles or calibers; 22LR,7x57,7mm Rem. Mag. and for real uggly beasts my 58cal. loaded with 450gr. slugs. I feel that I am pretty well covered for anything that roames the north american continent.
Crazy Reformer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 09:32   #74
Full Member
Points: 965, Level: 16 Points: 965, Level: 16 Points: 965, Level: 16
Activity: 1.1% Activity: 1.1% Activity: 1.1%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by Marlin 45 carbine View Post
just my opine the .243 win and 7mm-08 are newer designs that are of little or no practical use.
Respectfully but you crazy! .243 has killed every deer mounted in my house with one shot. You just have to know what you're doing and load it correctly!

No disrespect intended, just jerking your chain..............LOVE my .243's!

Art
Tazman1602 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 22:09   #75
Full Member
Points: 2,106, Level: 27 Points: 2,106, Level: 27 Points: 2,106, Level: 27
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Model06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VA
Posts: 36
I'm sure there is a limit to how many cartridges the market can support, chamberings manufacturers can offer, and buyers will buy - but I don't think we have reached it yet. And certainly there can be advantages in a number of the new cartridges, especially with new powders and bullets.

My take on 'obsolete' cartridges where there a still shooters with good rifles in those cartridges who want to buy factory ammo or or reload, then we shooters should be supportive as much as we can. If one has a good rifle 30-06 and does fine with it, they may tend to keep shooting it and not buy a new rifle in .308 because the .30-06 cartridge is 106 years old and the .308 is only 60 years old.

My old .270 made in about 1960 is staying in the family because it is a really powerful and versatile caliber and the rifle still shoots 1 - 1.5 MOA. On the other hand I can also see myself being convinced to buy a .30-06 or a new short magnum. And I want to have a good selection of ammo for whatever I either keep or buy in the future.

So firearm and ammo manufacturers, give me all the choices possible!

Model06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
223 remington, 243, 30-06, 308 winchester, 7.62x39, best rifle rounds

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:28.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
All information is copyright by Perfectunion.com unless already under copyright.

This site is Gunny Approved