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Old 09-10-2007, 13:25   #1
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Why isn't 25-06 used more in long-range competition?

I've been comparing ballistics of rifle calibers for long range. When I plug in the best competition loads for say 308 (typically some brand of 175gr BTHP), plug in a good long-range load/bullet for the 25-06, and compare their ballistics out to 1000 yards, the 25-06 comes out not just a little better off, but WAY better off. It shoots flatter, and with less drift by far than the 308's best load. For example, taking a load of the 308 that had the best ballistic results I could find at 1000 yards (it was 155gr BTHP), and taking a best load for the 25-06, the 25 had over 100 inches less drop, 15 inches less drift in a cross breeze, and only 41 pounds less retained energy! For all practical purposes, the 25-06 would be a better competition round at 1000 yards.

And it isn't just the 308 that the 25-06 can best at long range, I compared many other leading types of competition or "flat-shooting" rounds, such as .243, .243 WSSM, 6mm Rem, 6.5 Grendel, .270 Win, .260 Rem, 6.5 x 55 Swede. You know what? Unless there are a LOT better loads out there available in some of these calibers than what I was able to find, it appears to me that 25-06 is one of the flattest shooting, best long-range calibers available. With the exception of a few specialty magnums and specialty competition calibers, I could not find any of the conventional calibers that shot flatter and with less drift at 1000 yards than the 25-06.

Maybe I missed something, probably there's a load here and there in a conventional caliber or two that WILL exceed the 25 with just the right powder and bullet combo, but that's not my real point. The point is just that the 25-06 overall has incredible long-range ballistics and performance potential, if loaded right. It seems to have LOTS of loads that do well at long ranges, apparently because of the high BC's of many of its cartridges. And when you take it's relatively lighter recoil (compared to say a 308), it seems like a real winner for competition.

Which leads to my question. I know 25-06 is a very popular hunting round, but why on earth is this round not being used more in other applications, especially in long-range competition, and perhaps also in some tactical settings? Am I missing something, does this round actually NOT work well for some reason at long range? On paper, it seems like it would be the perfect round.

And if it's really as good as described above in ballistics, plus you factor in its proven track record as a great hunting round, you have to wonder if it could be a very effective tactical round as well. Take for instance the 6.5 Grendel, a round that I've been interested in lately, and a lot of folks have been talking about as a possible complement to the .223 on the AR platform. When you look at the Grendel's ballistics with its best ballistically performing bullets (123gr Lapua Scenar and 129gr Hornady SST), even in its absolute best performing load at 1000 yards, the 25-06 still beats it: the 25's best load (that I could find) has 30 inches less drop at that distance, nearly 200 more ft/lbs of retained energy, and 400 fps higher velocity. And also important is the initial energy from the muzzle. The Grendel's best load only has 1593 ft./lbs energy at the muzzle, while the 25-06 has 3007 ft/lbs, nearly DOUBLE the muzzle energy! And even at 300 yards, the 25-06 still has 1902 ft/lbs to the Grendel's 1054, again almost double. I'd be the last one to say the Grendel 6.5 isn't a good round that has its uses, but when you look at these numbers and the proven performance of the 25-06, again you have to wonder why the 25 isn't being used more.

Would like to hear some other perspectives on this.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:48   #2
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it might be because a projectile from a 25-06 doesnt have the stability of a 308 also the 308 is alot less picky on components when it comes to handloading. ive loaded for my buddys 25-06 and it was pretty aggravating at times trying to get a load dialed in. My 308's on the other hand I can pretty much pick any load out of a book and just throw it together and it will shoot decent out any of my 308 rifles. there are many cartridges out there that easily outperform a 308 from the aspect of trajectory but the 308 seems to be the most consistent at printing good groups at longer ranges.
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Old 09-12-2007, 15:50   #3
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Timlt, the 25 is a big case, believe it is the 30-06 necked down, so would not be for any AR type platform. Many people complain it isn't a fast "stopper" on deer size game and above, that being said a local state cop uses one for a sniper rifle. I love mine but have not taken any big critters with it. A source of great frustration, let me tell ya.

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Old 05-06-2009, 11:20   #4
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Wow!

Somebody else out there realizes the potential of the 25-06. About them not being a quick stop on big game, that's BS or probably just crappy bullet placement. I've shot deer with a 250 Savage and they don't travel too darn far. The 250 Savage is about on par with a 243Win except a little bigger diameter bullet.

Varmint gun? Oh yeah! Target gun? My 700 Sedenero shot 5 shot 1/4" groups when I did my part.

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Old 05-07-2009, 17:23   #5
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I have a Savage 110 Tactical with a 6.5x20 Burris and a varmint stock, a plain jane Bell and Carlson. It will outshoot me all day.
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Old 05-07-2009, 18:16   #6
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...the longest shot I ever saw, was a 25-06 with a 4x Weaver at 900yds...dropped a 200#+ swamp deer...it never quivered, just hit the ground...shot was dead center of shoulder, broke the shoulder, took out the heart and lungs...shooter claimed he was aiming about 4" above where bullet hit...I was impressed!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-08-2009, 06:47   #7
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Originally Posted by p35bhp55 View Post
I have a Savage 110 Tactical with a 6.5x20 Burris and a varmint stock, a plain jane Bell and Carlson. It will outshoot me all day.
I have a few Savages, only one isn't the shooter I thought it would be. Hopefully, a handload can cure that or it'll be on the rack. The rest are ba!!s on and group very well. One of them is a 110 Tactical also its a pre-accutrigger model in 7mm Mag. I read that the Secret Service uses or used the 7mm Mag round in their tac rifles so I thouhgt it might be fun to put one together. Sold another gun found this gun for a real good price, threw a Rifle Basix trigger in it, used the same stock that you did and it pushes 100 Sierra Hollow Points at 3550pfs into a 3/4" group and it blows holes through 7/16" steel plate. Haven't shot anything with it yet (hopefuly yotes soon) but whatever it will be it won't go far.

Really didn't need this gun having had a 25-06 but do we need half of what we have? Did I mention that the 25 takes less powder and doesn't bark?

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Old 05-08-2009, 07:02   #8
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Originally Posted by madjack View Post
...the longest shot I ever saw, was a 25-06 with a 4x Weaver at 900yds...dropped a 200#+ swamp deer...it never quivered, just hit the ground...shot was dead center of shoulder, broke the shoulder, took out the heart and lungs...shooter claimed he was aiming about 4" above where bullet hit...I was impressed!!!!!!!!
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He said he aimed 4" high a 900 yards? 4"? 50 miles north of me lies an item called the Brooklyn Bridge that use to be sold to unsuspecting immigrants about 20 times a week back in the day. The shooter could come north and make a pretty penny. At that distance the shooter would have had to hold WELL OVER 4 feet. At that distance a 50 caliber bullet might retain enough energy to do that kind of damage but not a 25 caliber. The parameters that are laid out here are more indicative of a 900 foot shot (300 yards) than a 900 yard one.

Even at 300 yards, thats still a good shot with a 4x Scope and would still be admirable terminal ballistics.
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Old 05-08-2009, 07:19   #9
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Originally Posted by NJCOP View Post


He said he aimed 4" high a 900 yards? 4"? 50 miles north of me lies an item called the Brooklyn Bridge that use to be sold to unsuspecting immigrants about 20 times a week back in the day. The shooter could come north and make a pretty penny. At that distance the shooter would have had to hold WELL OVER 4 feet. At that distance a 50 caliber bullet might retain enough energy to do that kind of damage but not a 25 caliber. The parameters that are laid out here are more indicative of a 900 foot shot (300 yards) than a 900 yard one.

Even at 300 yards, thats still a good shot with a 4x Scope and would still be admirable terminal ballistics.
...welllll, we all called him on the 4" deal BUT he continued to swear to it...I was laying over the top of a pickup, alongside the shooter, when he took the shot, looking at the deer with a 2.5x7 Weaver onna 30.06 and watched the deer drop in his tracks...as far as the distance, there were 4 other people on hand with range finders and all agreed, within 50yds of each other...keep in mind this group of hunters, regularly took long distance shots, most of them shot some form of small caliber, hi ballistics rifles and his "sight in" was set for long ranges...all I know, I was there and saw the shot...and that's all I know.............
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:04   #10
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Anything's possible. Hell, I once took a shot at a pidgeon with a 12 gauge at about 80 yards while a group of us were shooting clay birds from a Trius Trap. The dam bird fluttered a couple of times and dropped out of the sky. We all scratched our heads and went what the heck. Found the bird, one piece of shot hit it in the eye. Not one other piece of shot could be found. I don't profess this to be anything other than a lucky shot.

I got to get me one of those reange finders ... any reasonably priced recommendations?
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:42   #11
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...ya know, after posting and reading your response, I went and looked up the ballistics on the 25.06 and realized the size of his "tale"...so, I called the guy up and in the conversation I asked about the 4" deal and he denied ever saying it...I reminded him of all the witnesses and he laughed and said "OKOKOK"...he then admitted he was more like 4'4"s over the TOP of the shoulder...as far as the range finders, this was like 30yrs ago and there were no electronic range finders, the ones in question were your basic mil type gradient scopes...ya know, the ones with all them little lines in the site picture...anyway ya wanna cut it, it was one helluva shot!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-08-2009, 12:34   #12
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I had a fellow cop tell me just yesterday that he shoots woodchucks at 800 yards with his 22-250 with no problem. He reminded me of my teenage days when there were those who built engines and those who talked about doing it. Those who built them didn't talk horse power those who didn't build all had stock Slant Six Dodge Darts that were pushing 400 horsepower and pulling 12s in the quarter mile. I looked at him with a raised eyebrow and he replied, "What?"

Hey, at least down there in Louisiana you have the opportunity to take some lengthy shots. You can't hunt in NJ with a rifle leaving the likes of myself and others to go to Pennsy and Upstate New York.

By the way how do swamp bucks taste? Sounds stupid but NJ Pinelands deer don't taste the same as the grain fed bucks from the Catskills. Just an observation...
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Old 05-08-2009, 14:01   #13
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Originally Posted by NJCOP View Post
MadJack

I had a fellow cop tell me just yesterday that he shoots woodchucks at 800 yards with his 22-250 with no problem. He reminded me of my teenage days when there were those who built engines and those who talked about doing it. Those who built them didn't talk horse power those who didn't build all had stock Slant Six Dodge Darts that were pushing 400 horsepower and pulling 12s in the quarter mile. I looked at him with a raised eyebrow and he replied, "What?"

Hey, at least down there in Louisiana you have the opportunity to take some lengthy shots. You can't hunt in NJ with a rifle leaving the likes of myself and others to go to Pennsy and Upstate New York.

By the way how do swamp bucks taste? Sounds stupid but NJ Pinelands deer don't taste the same as the grain fed bucks from the Catskills. Just an observation...
...like acorns and briers and palmetto...hill deer taste like acorns and briers and pine cones ...ya know, I played around with the Remington ballistics software some more AND if he held his shot where he said, 600yds was about the max that shot could have been taken successfully...sometimes I think it better to wallow in ignorant bliss (it was still a helluva shot)............
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Old 05-08-2009, 22:41   #14
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The longest knowen shot in the world for the time was with a 25-06.If I remember right it was back in the cowboy days.I cant remem the guy's name.Anyway's he took a 1200 yrd shoot off of a horse.Its somewher in the school book's.My 4grd teacher told us about it.
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Old 05-09-2009, 08:47   #15
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Originally Posted by NJCOP View Post
I have a few Savages, only one isn't the shooter I thought it would be. Hopefully, a handload can cure that or it'll be on the rack. The rest are ba!!s on and group very well. One of them is a 110 Tactical also its a pre-accutrigger model in 7mm Mag. I read that the Secret Service uses or used the 7mm Mag round in their tac rifles so I thouhgt it might be fun to put one together. Sold another gun found this gun for a real good price, threw a Rifle Basix trigger in it, used the same stock that you did and it pushes 100 Sierra Hollow Points at 3550pfs into a 3/4" group and it blows holes through 7/16" steel plate. Haven't shot anything with it yet (hopefuly yotes soon) but whatever it will be it won't go far.

Really didn't need this gun having a 25-06 but do we need half of what we have? Did I mention that the 25 takes less powder and doesn't bark?
Mine is also an oldie, very close to the change in models I think, can't say anyting about the 7 mag, just not in my realm. As far as the posts about the long shot, depending on how you use the scope calling 4" high could really be much more. Had to go to the B plex reticle cause I was shooting over stuff way too much. On a duplex it seems if the point were it gets fat is used as the aiming point and the horizontal crosshair is at least at the top of the back it has a good chance. A buddy who makes a lot of these shots says his rule at looking thru the scope is, "If ya ain't seeing brown it ain't goin' down."
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Old 05-09-2009, 19:23   #16
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Interesting thread. I've been debating the last few months whether to go w/a 25-06 or 6.5-06 for longer range target shooting. It's seems that the 6.5 has a better variety of higher BC bullets available, but I haven't had the time to actually input anything into any ballistic software yet.
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Old 05-09-2009, 19:49   #17
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This is interesting to me, because of something I got to shoot, last weekend. A friend of mine had some 30-06 "accelerators". They are a .223 bullet loaded into a 30-06 case, with a plastic sabot. Remington claims that they leave the barrel at 4080fps.

I first laughed at them, because I figured that they would eat that plastic when shot and rattle down the barrel, going who knows where. I was wrong!

Five of us shot one time each. All five of us made solid hits, on a steel plate that was 10"x24" at 500 yds.(Measured, not guessed at.)

The first guy that shot said that he put the cross-hair on the target, then came up until the bottom line of the cross-hair "got thicker" the first time.(It got thicker twice.) Thats what we all did, and we all hit.
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Old 05-09-2009, 20:28   #18
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All the claims of old times shots with 25-06 are bogus. The wildcat version came about in the late 1920s and the cartridge became a standard caliber for Remington in 1969. So anything prior to that wasn't a 25-06.
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Old 05-10-2009, 10:49   #19
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yeah I think maybe there's some bs involved w/this thread.
few years back some feller that had bought a rifle in one of the new magnums w/an exotic name spoke of seeing a 'vapor trail' in the path of the bullet on a foggy day!
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:51   #20
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Vapor trail?!

Originally Posted by Marlin 45 carbine View Post
yeah I think maybe there's some bs involved w/this thread.
few years back some feller that had bought a rifle in one of the new magnums w/an exotic name spoke of seeing a 'vapor trail' in the path of the bullet on a foggy day!
THIS THREAD JUST KEEPS GETTING BETTER!

Don't you know that the vapor trail is from the new solid fueled rocket projectiles? Yeh, its the latest thing that I heard about from some guy who knew someone who was an engineer at Boeing. These bullets are being made for effect only as a bullet would have to being burning a propellent (solid or liquid) in flight and while consuming oxygen or another flamable gas. Yeah, a new bullet ... Boeing.

I agree with MadJack , I would rather be blissfully ignorant. I really wish I was just one of the yahoos at the range who was happy shooting some crappy AK47 that grouped about a foot at a hundred yards and think it was great.

I'm 49, my dad is 78. When I was 7 he took me chuck hunting. He spotted a chuck two pastures over that I couldn't see with binoculars. I wear glasses and he has had 20/15 vision at the time. He got down into a low kneeling position, the 243 boomed and we took a walk. He paced off just over 400 giant steps. On the ground near the slate rock fence was the remains of one fat little chuck. My dad was: 1. a farm boy. 2. A winning Olympic style small bore shooter. 3. One hell of a shot. 4. My hero. The gun? A 1965 Remington 700 BDL with a 3-9 Redfield Traditional. No heavy barrel. No Winchester Short Mag. No bipod. No 20x varmint scope. The Round wasn't any new fangled offering. It was a simple handload consisting of a Sierra 75gn Hollowpoint, IMR 4350, REm casing and primer.

During scores of hunting trips with the old man I learned some things from my dad. 1. You don't need a cannon to shoot 90% of what walks. 2. Little bullets in big cartridges travel fast (243/22-250/25-06). 3. No gun can compensate for a bad shooter and a badly placed shot. 4. Never brag as your shooting should speak for itself. 5. Never BullSh!t as sh!t smells and someone will always sniff you out. I'm lucky to have had this man as a Dad.

Getting back to the topic of this thread. The only other guy I use to shoot with who had a 25-06 was a friend who became disabled in a trucking accident. He was a good friend but he had the tendency to embellish. The best one he told was of his brother in law, a former military man, who shot a wild dog on a dead run at 500 YARDS IN THE EYE! WOW! .... Cough Cough BULLSH!T Cough Cough.

The Good Book says Ingorance is Bliss and by God it is!

Anybody got a Ruger varmint gun out there and if so how do they group?
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Old 06-22-2009, 20:41   #21
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You guys are costing me $$$$$. I just put a Sendero in 25-06 on lay-a-way at the local pawn shop.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:29   #22
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Yahoo!

Originally Posted by cne411 View Post
You guys are costing me $$$$$. I just put a Sendero in 25-06 on lay-a-way at the local pawn shop.

You won't be sorry! The Rem Sed is one hell of a gun. Not knowing the trigger in the gun all I can tell you is that if the one in the gun is a bit heavy and creapy don't ditch it. The Rem triggers can be cleaned up to be nearly as nice as a replacement model and Brownell's sells light weight trigger springs made by Wolf spring. You can find directions on the web as to adjusting them and if you don't feel confortable doing it (its easy) have a smith do it. IF YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS INFO NEVER MIND. THE 700 IS MY FAVORITE BOLT GUN AND I'VE WORKED ON A LOT OF THEM. The great thing with that gun your buying is that you don't have to screw with pillar bedding and glass bedding because it has a aluminum bedding block and all you have to do is screw it in at 50 inch pounds (NOT FOOT POUND) and your golden.

PS Put me on your friend list because if you don't like the gun shoot me a message and we'll talk. S-E-D-E-N-E-R-O ! Cool...
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:37   #23
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Originally Posted by cne411 View Post
You guys are costing me $$$$$. I just put a Sendero in 25-06 on lay-a-way at the local pawn shop.
NJ COP beat me to it, was gonna tell you that if you are unhappy, there is probably someone in my area who would return your money in exchange for the rifle
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Old 09-12-2009, 20:31   #24
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25-06 vs others as match rifles

One of the reasons I can think of for the .25 being ignored by match shooters is that match-grade bullets have historically been more available in .223, 6mm, 6.5mm, and .308 than in other calibers. On the other hand, the industry as a whole has made substantial improvements in bullet quality in the last decade. It will be interesting to see what happens as some good shots get brave (or stupid) and try the .25 in meaningful matches.

In the meantime, I think you'll find the 6.5 awfully hard to beat either as a match or as a hunting/plinking caliber. For hunting, look at the exploits of the 6.5X55. In the 6.5 Grendel, deer-class game are reachable out to interesting ranges. In the '06 configuration, the heavier (up to 160 grains) bullets allow you to go to slightly larger game.

You can go to Hornady's website (http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/hits_calculator.php) to explore bullet capability by weight, caliber, and velocity. You can also go to the articles section in http://shootersnotes.com for a comparison between the 6.5 Grendel, the .257 Roberts, and other medium-sized deer-class cartridges.
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:40   #25
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NJ where the 2nd Amendment is trampled
Posts: 166
It's not that I'm getting old, your music really does suck. How true!

How is this thread still alive?
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Patton, George S. "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
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