I have a .270 and I want to know what loads to use on coyotes. I want to use the most destructive bullet so I know they wont get away (Im not shooting for the fur) they are attacking baby cattle and goats and I want to go out and shoot some
I use Remington Express 100 grain PSP's on coyotes. It's fur friendly (I know you said you don't want that, but bare with me) to the point it gives you a smaller than dime entry and dime to nickle exit. The 3300fps 100 grain pointed soft point (psp) doesn't kill by the bullet blowing apart, it kills by the sonic shock wave by the mach 2+ bullet passing through and holding over super sonic speeds and exiting. The sonic shock wave, in my experience, ruptures most blood vessel in a 6" diameter and every nerve across the height of the coyotes torso. The blood vessels and nerves are rumptured by the rapid contraction and expansion from the shock wave, causing them to rupture and break. Bone that is close to the bullet path will also have fractures from the wave as well. On the coyotes I've shot the coyote is parallized from the bullet path point to his tail, plus a few inches towards his head.
The first coyote I shot with this load was last January (pic in my galary thread) at a little over 100 yards broadside. I hit the yote at the very back of his lungs, as far back as you can shoot something and have it not be gut shot. Another 1/2" back and the bullet would have crossed his guts. Also the shot was very low, with the bullet going across the inside bottom of his rib cage, so as low as you can hit a coyote and not shoot under him. It was not my best shot...
Anyway, the coyote went straight down. He got up on his front legs, his back half paralized (hitting a coyote as low as you can still had enough sonic shock wave to paralize his spine!). I put a dispatch shot in him although it was necessary since his heart and lungs had stopped and all the blood vessels ruptured, he was very dead but his blood pressure hadn't dropped in his brain yet.
I drug that coyote a 1/2 mile or so back to the truck and it left a thick red blood trail all the way back to the truck in the snow. You can see in the pic of the january yote that he was still bleeding even after I got him home.
The second yote was in February, hit in the chest at 50 yards facing me. I put the crossairs on his chest and adjusted a little and aimed through his body at his back hip (to stop the bullet from exiting) and there wasn't an exit, but the bullet sure did sit him down. He was also dead before he hit the ground and the pelt was perfect.
The third yote I've shot with that load was in March, hit through the heart lungs at a little over 100 yards from my deck, a perfect shot. The yote went down like the other two, like lighting had hit it, and he didn't get up either, just like the second yote didn't. She was instantly dead.
I missed a coyote in april..... So far nothing this month but I'm carrying the mini, maybe it's cursed... I don't see many yotes when I have that rifle...
I've used standard velocity (a little over 3000fps) 130 grain loads and they work the same pretty much, but have more recoil. The 100 grain 3300fps load is light on recoil. As a comparison a 100 grain 243 WSSM is around 3200fps, so the .270 100 grain load is a little hotter.
If you want handloads, and you want to blow them up I'd recommend the speer 90 grain tnt bullet. I have some loaded up (don't remember the load, many moons ago...documentation is with my dies whereever they are...long story...) and they were accurate in my weatherby and a buddies Savage but I've never used them on yotes although I'm pretty sure what they'd do.
One worry I have (because I've experieced it) is "spashing" with varmint bullets at close range. Under 50 yards a hot varmint load can "splash" on the entry side leaving a 4" crater. I've had coyotes with the big crater run off to undoubted die by bleeding to death.
The PSP's I've used from 50 yards to a little over 100 yards have been consistant lightning bolts. I also have two other friends, one with a 25-06 and one with a 6mm rem, that have switched from varmint "blow em up" bullets (they're also experienced "splashing" close up) to 100 grain PSP's for yotes because they hit like lightning, even on a bad shot. The bud with the 6mm rem has one kill out at 350 yards and another half dozen closer so far this year (it rides in his chore truck when he tends the horses). My buddy with the 25-06 is like me with a few kills, all bang flops. So between the three of us with similar 100 grain psps loads (6mm rem 3200fps, 25-06 3200fps, .270 3300fps) we have a dozen lighting bolt kills and counting.
But to each their own. If I were really pissed at some yotes I know I'd get the 90 grain tnt's and use them, just to blow them up for the damage they've done. Just be sure if the coyote is close to be ready in the event the bullet "splashes", he'll need a followup shot to finish him.
Hopefully I'll be able to post some May coyote pics taken with the weatherby .270 using the 100 grain psps. I thought the "thunder stick" was going to rest until this fall but I got asked to address a coyote problem (calf kills, yotes walking the open pastures all times of day, etc) on a farm nearly an hour from me. I printed off some tera server satalite images to do some "scouting" before I drive down there and it's alot more open then I would have guessed. So "thunder stick" is getting called up for this one. And from the images I have a better idea where I think the yotes are most likely located, where to set up my initial stands, how the yotes will likely approach using timbered creeks, low spots, etc., how I will approach my stands without being seen, and when I meet with the farmer face to face before heading out calling I'll know where and what he's talking about when he describes where he's seen the yotes walking during the day and howling at night.
Well, I didn't get a pic of last nights yote, he was mange from head to toe and ran across a creek into some tall grass where he ran out of steam.
Mr coyote had popped his head around the steep side hill looking at the e-caller. Confused on why he was hearing dog pups but not seeing any or smelling any since he was downwind of the ecaller, but not downwind of hunting partner and I, he stood there staring at the cammo'd motionless caller. I could only see his head, neck, and tops of his front shoulder so I put the crossairs on his neck and squeezed the trigger. The coyote, almost exactly 200 yards away, flew backwards from the hit. Then he got up and ran down the hill and across the valley where my buddy fired a 6mm rem at him but missed. The coyote dropped from mach 3 to mach 2 at around 75 yards. Then slowed to mach 1. Then jumped the creek and ran up the other side through some thicker grass. He was headed for 3 trees and when he cleared them my buddy and I were ready to send some 350 yard lead parting gifts, but they were never sent. As the coyote reached the trees he'd slowed to a trot and then stopped, dropped, and disappeared in the grass/weeds. We waited 15 minutes, both of us looking for any sign of movement since he couldn't leave that spot without being seen, nothing. He'd gone around 150 yards after beeing shot with a 100 grain .270 in the neck (I'm assuming I hit him in the neck since it obviously wasn't a head shot....). The diagonal 15mph crosswind undoubtly made me shoot to the right of POA a couple inches so I missed his spine but still took out a bunch of blood vessels. Which is why he ran at hight speed for a bit and then as his blood pressure dropped he slowed down and finally dropped.
So to update my previous post, the 200 yard shot didn't seem to have a "shock wave" as the 50-125 yard shots did. It's probably a combination of the bullets velocity being less and the bullet just barely hitting the yotes neck, not giving it much of an oppurtunity to do damage.
But hopefully in the coming weeks I'll get some more "ballistics tests" on coyotes completed.
The farmer who's ground I was hunting, who had a calf kill last week, also has a neighbor that had a calf kill a couple days ago. The neighbor was checking on a cow out in the pasture and saw two coyotes jump out of a creek bed, run over to the delivering mom, bite and pull the calf out of her, and drag the calf down into the creek. The neighbor farmer ran the coyotes off but not before it was too late, the calf later died (the vet couldn't put it back together). The neighbor said it happened so fast he couldn't stop them, him yelling and trying to run them off, nothing phased the coyotes. (he needs a rifle...rifles work wonders on coyotes...)
Anyway, the yotes are so thick there that after I turned off the gravel back onto the pavement and got up to speed a coyote ran across the road 50 yards ahead of me. They're definitely thick. So my .270 with 100 grain psp's should get some more testing in. And if they don't drop em anchored out at 200 yards I might consider loading up some 90 grain tnt's as my summer load and leave the pelt friendly 100's for when I'm hunting for pelts.
How prevalent is mange down your way? Our coyote population here is pretty healthy but the fox have really taken a beating from it. For the past several years I have seen more fox with mange than without it. Sometimes the only fur on them is on the end of their tail or right around their feet. Nothing as ugly as a hairless fox!!! For some time it has been real difficult to shoot a fox that was even saleable.
We may be getting past the worst of it now. There is presently a den about 200 yards from my house in a hillside overlooking a creek. I see either the male or female returning to the den from hunting most mornings and they look pretty healthy.
I only see a few foxes a year nowadays and usually only one a year doesn't have mange, the other 2 or 4 have mange, usally like you describe, very balding. The coyotes on the other hand are much healtheir, maybe 1 mangy one for every 10 good ones. I'm not sure why the difference.
Back in the fall of 2003 I saw a coyote without a hair on it's body, looked like a skinned yote. At first glance it looked like a gaint possum, with the bony tail. He was over 150 yards away and all I had was a 22 mag with me that day. I aimed high, too high, and shot over his back. I don't take shots over 100 yards with my 22 mag (actually I quit using if for coyotes, just not enough range or margin for error) but for this poor soul I made an exception and tried to put him out of his missery. The temps were going to drop below freezing that night and that following week, but I missed. He trotted off. If I would of had my .223 or .270 it would have been a different ending.
Anyway, I really miss seeing foxes, their numbers keep declining here, they just can't compete with coyotes I'm afraid, both for food and because of mange.
I think in addition to mange our dwindling fox population is also due to competition with coyotes, and the coyote population has expanded southward as the timber wolf numbers have increased. The wolves used to be pretty much isolated in the far north but as they increased they needed more territory and have moved south pushing coyotes ahead of them. Estimated that we have something over 2500 wolves in the state now and they have been sighted quite far south. A boy deer hunting near Rochester shot one thinking it was a yote a couple years back. There is some talk that the state may be able to have a limited hunting season on wolves when they are taken off the endangered and threatened status.
A couple weeks back a fox barking outside my bedroom window at 3:00AM woke me up. I threw some light out there with my flashlight and there was a fox and a large cat having a standoff between two spruce trees. They didn't pay any attention to the light, the fox kept circling the cat who kept his back to a tree trunk and spun around as the fox circled. The fox finally got bored and trotted off into the trees.
I took a fox at 244 yards with my .270 WMS last fall. Only had a second or two to shoot and didn't know how far it was till I checked it with my rangefinder after he went down. Nice to have a gun where hold over isn't necessary unless the shot is super long. Got one later in the winter with the Mini while hunting with my grandson. That one was close and running, nailed him on the third shot.
Good luck on keeping those yodel dogs under control.
Scruffy were you shooting the 100 grain psp's or were you shooting the vmax's? The vmax's are a much better bullet for what you are doing IMHO. With the PSP's you would have to hit some bone of some kind to expend more of the energy otherwise it is wasted on teh shoot through. The whole idea with teh vmax's is that the bullet is going to expend 100% of its energy into the target. I've shot coyotes with my .308 using the vmax's at 150-300 yards without a shoot through which is a consideration if you are hunting in pastures containing other livestock... There is alot of good info here varminthunters.com on the different bullets and their intended uses. If you partner is shooting some 6mm variant there are a ton of good varmint bullets in that dia. as well.
I also saw that you had some 90grain tnt's. Those would probably do a better job on dropping them where they stand......
Originally posted by fishnfst@May 19 2005, 10:38 AM With the PSP's you would have to hit some bone of some kind to expend more of the energy otherwise it is wasted on teh shoot through.
If you look at my earliest post you see my description of a PSP's super sonic shock wave effect that ruptures at 6" diameter of blood vessels and every nerve from the top to bottom of the torso on a broadside torso shot out to 125 yards (fartherst torso shot so far). They look like they've been struck by lighting. They are paralized, heart/lungs stop, and often the only thing they can move is there head which they have lifted up to look at me and look around as they're blood pressure drops and they drift off to coyote heaven. I don't feel you can get any deader than that, and at those ranges (50-125 yards) a 90-100 grain vmax pushed over 3300 fps from my .270 would have blown a huge exit hole in the coyote pelt, ruining it. So for my winter pelt hunting there's no comparison to me, the PSP kills as good as lightning and saves the pelt.
For this time of year using predator distress instead of prey distress sounds my normal shot distance of 50-125 has changed to 200-225 yards. The coyotes just don't come as close. A e-caller speeker in a bunch of tall grass coaxes a coyote in thinking a rabbit is in the tall grass. But the sound of a coyote fox fight or coyote pup in distress the coyote coming to the call figure he better see or smell a coyote from 200 yard away or much more or else he isn't moving closer.
That's been my experience the last month anyway, in the past I've been prey distress only caller and this time of year through till fall was a big long dry period. Now using predator distress sounds I'm continueing to call coyotes in but they aren't coming in near as close.
So I'm making some changes. On my ecaller I now have small predators in distress as my 3rd and 4th tracks, which finish out my stand. The 3rd track is canine pups which will hopefully coax a coyote a little close (although it didn't Tuesday evening but sure did hold his attention, he couldn't leave) and the 4th track is a housecat in distress, which will hopefully bring him right to the tuff of tall grass I put the ecaller speaker in. I'm hoping the kitty cat sound will end my 200+ yard shots and get my shots back down to the 50-125 yards range where I hardly ever miss.
But as far as which bullet would work best at 200 yards, I'm not sure on that one yet. If the PSP's can lightning strike a coyote hit in the torso out to 250 yards (only a 400 fps drop from 125 yards where it lightning kills to 250 yards so there's hope) I'll probably stick with the PSP's. If they don't I'll consider changing to a summer load with tnt's or vmax handloads and continue to use the 100 PSP's for my winter pelt friendly load (I blow pelts up with my .223 with varmint bullets at my winter ranges, so I know my .270 will do the same).
So hopefully tonight my updated mp3's call sequence will help coax them closer. If not hopefully the dang coyote will present more than just his head and neck for a shot so I can test hitting him in the torso with the 100 grain PSP's at long 200+ yard ranges.
Well, the field tests continue but nothing new to report. Called in a pack of coyotes on the first stand, aggresive sounding buggers but they wouldn't step out of the thick timber so I could see them. I'm guessing between 6 to 8 coyotes all yipping and howling. I've never heard so many coyotes in one place. Came from over 1/2 mile away but stayed on the opposite thick timbered hillside 200 yards away, top of the hill being around 275 to 300 yards away. Finally one coyote, not a hair on it's body from the tip of his nose to the tip of his tale, started walking the other side of the creek and I could only see him through little holes in thick brush. I barked and got him to stop a couple times but he kept stopping with a tree or bush over his vitals. Finally he stopped in the last hole in the brush I'd be able to shoot through but turned to face me and lowered his head down over his chest to look up the hillside at me. So instead of a nice torso sized target I have a small head sized target. Anyway, I missed him (range finder'd at 196 yards). Calling in a pack of coyotes and having them yipping and howling so close for so long really gets the heart pounding, pounding hard enough it was hard to get settled for the shot.
Thirty seconds after the shot echo'd through the valley they started up again on the howling and yipping. They carried on for another few minutes and then went silent. Usually I'll wait up to 30 to 45 minutes to see if something will come in but I didn't last night. We had just enough time to make another stand on another part of the farm so after 10 minutes of silence I signalled to my buddy that we were going to slip out of the area.
We went back up to the truck infront of the farmhouse to get some water out of it before heading to the next stand. As I was fumbling with my keys I glanced over the back of the truck and a coyote was circling us 125 yards out. Dang yote followed us??? I dropped my keys while taking off my caller bag, took off my hat, stayed low out of the coyotes sight and snuck up to a dumpster that was sitting 15 yards behind the truck. Slowly raised up behind the dumpster, sliding the weatherby up onto the lid, the coyote was still slowly stalking around us. I took aim, barked, the coyote stopped, BOOM, down she went. The shot was range finder'd at 106 yards, right through her heart/lungs, maybe an inch higher than perfect but it's also zero'd at 225 yards so it's an inch and a half high at 100 yards.
We walked over to her and she was fine in front but her back half was all mange. I drug her to the coyote killed and half eaten calf carcus and tossed her on top as a message to the other coyotes that come up to eat the calf that eating calves will get them killed.
We then made one final stand, called in a couple of deer that tried to run us off. They came at a run from over 400 yards away and stopped 75 yards infront of us, then took off and circled around us and came up behind us, downwind, to 25 yards and huff and puffed and stomped their hooves. They didn't like us much, but I don't think they realized we were trying to kill the coyotes that undoubtedly kill alot of their fawns. It got dark and we called it a night.
Just before we left we took a moment to reflect on the evening's calling and take in one last breath of farm air. Then as we climbed into the truck the pack of coyotes whipped up again howling and yipping their good bye. Probably totally unaware for the time being that another one of their number has been silenced. Two evenings, 4 hours of hunting, 4 stands total, 2 stands where coyotes came in, 3 .270's 100 grain psp's fired, 2 dead coyotes and 1 miss. I can't wait to get back down there next week!
__________________ -NRA Life Member -Eagle Scout -"We must all fear evil men. But, there is another kind of evil, which we must fear most; and that is the indifference of good men!" -Boondock Saints "In life, we can never escape the rain...the rain must fall." -Myron Carter
Originally posted by adaman04@May 20 2005, 06:55 PM I gotta learn to coyote hunt like you, Scruffy! Hey mods, we need a "Scruffy's Coyote Corner"!
Nope, the corner won't be necessary. A few years ago I went into retirement for a year after I got married. Then after a year I started hunting for sport again during the prime pelt months. Now I'm back at doing ADC work again and hunting year round. But in less than a month I'll likely go back into retirement for a year or three when little scruffy jr arrives. So these last few weeks are the last hurah for probably some time.
And on that note, I called in three monday evening, didn't get a shot at any of them. The .270 never fired a shot, sucks.... The first yote came from behind us and before it could get around infront of my partner (only had to travel 10 more yards forward) a mad momma cow charged up the hill at the coyote (and my partner). Almost had a bunch of hamburger since my partner didn't know a coyote was behind him and a cow was charging! From my angle I couldn't shoot the coyote without hitting really close to my partner. Plus the muzzle blast might make my partner shoot the cow thinking I was shooting it since he didn't know about the coyote, it was a mess. But the cow stopped just short of being shot in the head with a 6mm rem. After the stand I informed him about the coyote, then it all made sense to him.
The next two coyotes we didn't get a shot at because the ecaller ended a calling track at the worst time as the coyotes were working in. When a continous call stops the coyote stops, looks everything over trying to determine what changed, get wary, and usually gets back into cover. When a coyotes coming in and you want to stop him for a shot cutting the call will stop him 9 out of 10 times.
The reason the call was ending in the middle of their approach was my fault. I had 5 minutes of calling with 3 minutes of break between calls. So Monday night when I put the ecaller infront of us 50 yards in a brush pile 50 yards from a creek in an open pasture with my partner and I halfway up a steep hillside next to a couple big oak trees and pushed play on the MP3 the first track was 3 minutes of silence. This give me 3 minutes to get up the hill, sat down, rifle up on shooting sticks (just made a carbon fiber set), get my gloves on, etc. After 3 minutes went buy the MP3 went to the next track, 5 minutes of distressed fawn. 2 minutes into that the coyote behind my partner incident happened. After the 5 minutes were up the call went silent for 3 minutes, then 5 more minutes of fawn, the another 3 minutes of silence, then 5 minutes of distressed rabbit, then 3 minutes of silence, the 5 minutes of rabbit. On the last 5 minutes a coyote was moving through tall grass circling and right before he'd cut into the open the 5 minutes were up and the call quit....
On my previouse 4 stands, instead of having repeated fawn and rabbit tracks I had 4 different tracks, each 5 minutes long. The 5 minute tracks are fine for quick comers, but theses yotes are obviously getting call shy and are coming in slower and need more time. So I'm going to have 3 minutes of silence, then 15 minutes of calling sound 1, 3 minutes silence, 15 minutes calling sound 2, 3 minutes silence, then calling sound 3 for 15minutes, end (end meaning I usually get on my 'scruffy screamer' open read antler howler I made and do some lonesome howls just to see what happens). I'll have 3 different sounds, 15 minutes each seperated by 3 minutes of silence to let things calm down and reset before the new sound starts.
The entire play time will now be 54 minutes from start to end, a long time to sit still, but it'll be worth it. Over the last week on this 200 acre farm I've called in coyotes 4 of 6 stands, 5 coyotes in all came in, plus the one dumpster coyote as a bonus. So I don't want to change the ecaller setup too much. I just need to improve the called in to dead ratio, right now it's 5 called in, 1 dead, 1 miss. That's not good. If the call tracks were longer we might have gotten 2 more last night because they wouldn't have stopped prematurely and had a ratio of 5 called in, 3 killed, 1 miss. That's a whole lot better. So I want to keep the 3 minute gaps the same, just increase the time a coyote has to come to a particular call sound by increasing from 5 to 15 minutes. And to keep my calling under an hour (about as long as I can sit in one spot without standing up...) I'm going from 4 sounds to 3 sounds. I hope it works well. I'll probably find out this weekend during the afternoon or possibly an evening later this week. Right now the plan is 15 minutes of fawn distress, then 15 of rabbit distress, then 15 of housecat distress.
Oh, and the walk between the two stands Monday evening, at one point were were walking the top of a ridge up a hill, thick timber dropping down below us, the coyote pack hearing my howling (I assume) came into to kill the invading coyote because they started yipping and howling 100 yards below us at the bottom of the ridge. We could hear sticks breaking, leaves crunching as they approached but they wouldn't come to the top of the ridge. I howled again but they wouldn't do it. I squeeked on a mouse squeeker, wouldn't come.... But man were they loud! With the trees and brush so thick we couldn't see them much less shoot them and we still have no idea how many there were.
My partner wanted me to use the ecaller and pull them up from right there. I said nope, the wind was wrong, blowing out scent the rest of the way up the hill. The coyotes would circle downwind and be above us. With centerfire rifles you never want the coyotes to have the high ground. I told him we needed to get the heck out of there, get downwind, get to high ground. We did and made one final stant as it was getting dark. My partner was setup to my side and back aways to get any coyote coming out of a timber finger to my left to circle the call (me since I had the ecaller next to me this time). I played 1 track (5 minutes) of fawn distress and my partner said he heard the pitter patter of paws on leaves come up and was about to cross out in the open 15 or so yards infront of him when the 5 minute track ended. I didn't know a coyote was coming in, it was getting dark, I left the call off. The coyote stopped when the call stopped, just inside the brush, waited a second, then moved back deep into the cover. My partner only needed the call to last a few more seconds...
And this illustrates why I like to hunt in pairs. I saw a coyote 10 yards from my partner he never saw (a nice red one at that!) and my partner saw a coyote that came in and would have circled out of my view behind me (which is why I setup so I can see my downwind side so this doesn't happen when hunting solo!). Alot of coyotes come to calls but you never see them. Another set of eye helps spot the coyotes.
But anyways, the coyotes certainly won Monday night after having defeats the first two nights. They're getting smarter, but so am I. I'm learning from my mistakes, I've been calling coyotes for years but you're always a rookie when it comes to coyotes, and like they say - you learn more from failures than successes. I learned alot Monday evening, more than the other two previous successful nights combined. We'll see what happens when next we meet.
Hopefully the .270 will put some more fur down (and it won't have to be used on a charging cow!!).
Keep the episodes coming Scruffy. Always enjoy reading them and I can just picture the landscape as I used to live just up the road from you in Indianola. My grandfather had farms south of Indianola, just west of Pleasantville, one just east of Winterset, and one outside of Knoxville. I have roamed those hills many times in years past. Beautiful country. I hope you won't let the new addition keep you from a little occasional relaxation out in the timber.
Regards and good shooting,
Post some pics if you have any luck in the near future.