View Full Version : Obama's true religion
COBRADOC
09-11-2008, 10:31
There has been much speculaltion and discussion, both here on PU and many other locations concerning Barrack Husane Obama's religion - is he Muslim or Christian? Actually he is neither.
Obama embraces the teachings of Black Liberation Theology. The best definition I have read about this religion is: "Black liberation theology is radical theology that preaches racism and Marxism disguised as Christianity."
This is the "theology" that is preached in many of the redical black churches that call themselves "Christian" churches, including the one that Obama attends in Chicago. It's the message of "God damn America", it is the message of, "The U S KKK of A", etc., etc.
Please take the time to read up on this "theology". There are some aspects of it that resemble radical Islam, but I don't think you will find anything in it that resembles "Christianity", even in the slightest.
Mrblackguns
09-11-2008, 15:33
Good job COBRA, I've come to the same conclusion.
It's very interesting how the "black liberation movement" has fallowed step for step the NAZI movement in early 20th century Germany. And also the racist rederic that is spouted from their "pulpits".
The scary thing is both groups have veiled themselves in "Christianity" where none of the teachings of Christ are fallowed or even acknowledged.
The basis of the movement has been to gather power through political and social rederic, with all of these movements the scary part is the main course of thought simply becomes "the end justifies the means" whereby they eventualy condone anything even violating their core "beliefs" to accomplish their objective.
Yea I saw his "former pastor" on TV talking about it. Essentially it's overthrow whitey and take all his stuff.
Sounds status quo to me.
planeoldguy
09-11-2008, 17:52
I'm thinkin even if he gets elected He'll be in the ground before feb 20th.
AR15_Fanatic
09-11-2008, 19:55
The big problem here is that while they are a black church that does contain a lot of radical 60's ideology, it still is a Christian church which believes in the same basic tenants about Jesus Christ. There is a difference here and it does not constitute saying that Barack Obama is a Muslim or any other religion for that reason (remember that you don't have to bo a Republican or a conservative or a capitalist or even like the USA for that matter to be a Christian).
The big problem here is that while they are a black church that does contain a lot of radical 60's ideology, it still is a Christian church which believes in the same basic tenants about Jesus Christ. There is a difference here and it does not constitute saying that Barack Obama is a Muslim or any other religion for that reason (remember that you don't have to bo a Republican or a conservative or a capitalist or even like the USA for that matter to be a Christian).
Ouch! Well said. We waste too much time on speculation and not enough time for real dialogue or condemning his real agendas.
COBRADOC
09-12-2008, 08:30
The big problem here is that while they are a black church that does contain a lot of radical 60's ideology, it still is a Christian church which believes in the same basic tenants about Jesus Christ. There is a difference here and it does not constitute saying that Barack Obama is a Muslim or any other religion for that reason (remember that you don't have to bo a Republican or a conservative or a capitalist or even like the USA for that matter to be a Christian).
AR, that is just exactly what the BLT folks want you to believe. Just because they occasionally quote the Bible (either in or out of context) and shout the name of Jesus does not make them a "Christian" church.
You need to do some readings from the works of James Cone, Dwight Hopkins, and the better known Jeremiah Wright, who founded the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. All three of these guys are radical Marxist and come out of the University of Chicago School of Devinity. And you should know by now that the UoC is a hotbed of radical Marxist from the dean on down.
The big problem here is that while they are a black church that does contain a lot of radical 60's ideology, it still is a Christian church which believes in the same basic tenants about Jesus Christ. There is a difference here and it does not constitute saying that Barack Obama is a Muslim or any other religion for that reason (remember that you don't have to bo a Republican or a conservative or a capitalist or even like the USA for that matter to be a Christian).
Sorry, but that "reasoning" doesn't hold any water and I am going to tell you why.
If someone gets on the witness stand and tells the truth for 90% of their testimony and gets caught lying once, their entire testimony gets tossed out because they have now committed perjury.
I can go back and look at the policies of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or (insert whomever you like here) and find, without question, that some of their policies were "good". Are we going to argue that Hitler was a good leader because he took Germany from a 3rd world country to the most powerful nation on earth? Of course not, because his other policies discredited everything he did.
The teachings of Jesus (I am not a chapter and verse kind of guy) are very clear: you are either 100% with him or you are against him. So even Jesus doesn't give people who are not wholly committed a pass for the parts that are not committed.
Obama's church is exactly what it is: a blame the white man and white establishment for all our ills & we need to punish the whites for it type establishment.
There is no Jesus in that at all despite how they label it.
The teachings of Jesus (I am not a chapter and verse kind of guy) are very clear: you are either 100% with him or you are against him. So even Jesus doesn't give people who are not wholly committed a pass for the parts that are not committed.
Obama's church is exactly what it is: a blame the white man and white establishment for all our ills & we need to punish the whites for it type establishment.
There is no Jesus in that at all despite how they label it.
We need to also use this reasoning with the Supremist "christian" churches and those conservative southern churches that held KKK meetings, hate by any color is unchristian.
We need to also use this reasoning with the Supremist "christian" churches and those conservative southern churches that held KKK meetings, hate by any color is unchristian.
The reasoning applies to anything and everything that purports to be Christian and is not regardless of which side of the political spectrum it resides.
AR15_Fanatic
09-12-2008, 19:22
AZ-Mike and COBRADOC,
You are confusing a political and philisophical point of veiw with a religious one. There is no passage in the Bible that states you must be a conservative republican in order to get into heaven in the Christian faith! And for God's sake, comparing the poor guy to Hitler of Stalin because he's a member of a Black church?!?!?!? Give me a break! Certainly communism was officially atheist when it was implemented in the East Bloc during the Cold War, but the philosophical aspects of communism really are not intertwined with religion.
Yes Obama attends a black church (or used to). Yes his (former) pastor is nuts. But I see nothing in his statements or his behavior that states or suggest that he is posing as something he is not in his religious faith. You're making baseless arguments against the man that aren't true and besmirching him because he doesn't believe in your brand of fundamentalist Christianity. So much for loving thy neighbor as thyself, eh?
And what's all this crap about Barack Obama being against Jesus?!?!?!?!?! How's he against Jesus because he attends a church other than your own? As much as you seem to hate the guy you both bow and pray before the same God. And perhaps if there is aught between himself and God, shouldn't that remain a matter for God Himself to deal with and not you? Who are you to pass judgment on the man in this matter? Worry about the plank in your own eye.
Until you can show me that Barack Obama does not believe that:
1) Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the second member of the Triune Godhead.
2) Was born of a virgin
3) Lived a blameless and sinless life
4) That His suffering. death, and shed blood on the cross was a divine atonement for all of mankind's sins, the only one acceptable to God.
5) That He rose from the dead after 3 days, demonstrating his mastery over sin and death.
6) That He ascended into heaven and now stands at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty.
7) and that All who believe this, repent and are baptized in His name are saved.
Then you really can not claim that Barack Obama is not a Christian.
Now the political and philosophical aspects of his Church are another story altogether........
You missed my point by light years, so I will attempt to approach it a different way.
When I used the perjury and Hitler reference I was not talking about Obama, I was talking about "Pastor" Wright. The reason that I used those references are these:
1. Credibility goes to zero once you start telling lies, regardless of how much truth you have actually told.
2. Once someone starts doing "insane" things you cannot attribute "sanity" to anything else they do. You cannot "parse" insanity; You are either crazy or you are not.
Based on the rest of your post you seem to subscribe to the "I heard about Christianity on TV so I know a lot about it" philosophy.
I will try to address your points as best I can, but some are really convaluted.
1. Christians are supposed to love their neighbors but that doesn't mean that they have to subscribe to their neighbors belief system or hang out with them. Christians are supposed to stay away from people, behaviors and beliefs that might have a negative effect on them. So if someone is teaching stuff that is wrong or bad, Christians are not supposed to "jump right in with both feet", keep their mouths shut about it or pretend it's ok.
2. I have no idea what God anyone else worships. I hear what people say but even the Bible says to "judge them on deeds not words". That translates into "don't believe everything you hear" especially from politicians. This is a guy who spent a good deal of his life trying to take guns away from people, now all of a sudden he is pro 2A?
Deeds, not words.
3. You are absolutely correct that judgement (final judgement anyway) is left to God, but your premise that Christians are supposed to be like sheep and get led to slaughter because God is going to bail us out is unfounded. Christians just like everyone else are tasked with making daily decisions about everything they do, who they hang out with and who they believe. We are not supposed to allow ourselves to be conned by every snake oil salesman because we cannot make "judgements" of our own.
4. I don't have to show you what Obama believes with regard to Christianity because I don't know. I discussed all of that above but it is impossible to disprove a negative. So I will "show you" your 7 points as soon as you "show" me that you have never had sex with a goat.
I think I covered it. The reality is that I don't care what he says, he may very well be a Christian and he may very well tear chickens apart over a pentagram drawn on his basement floor every full moon. Either way it makes no difference to me because he is a liar and I can see that.
AR15_Fanatic
09-12-2008, 20:05
I think I covered it. The reality is that I don't care what he says, he may very well be a Christian and he may very well tear chickens apart over a pentagram drawn on his basement floor every full moon. Either way it makes no difference to me because he is a liar and I can see that.
And this pretty much crystalizes it. You could care less about what the man claims or looking for any evidence that the man is not this. You just hate Obama, a man you have never even met and know very little about, and think he's a liar no matter what exists to the contrary (really "Christian" of you, isn't it...?)
And this pretty much crystalizes it. You could care less about what the man claims or looking for any evidence that the man is not this. You just hate Obama, a man you have never even met and know very little about, and think he's a liar no matter what exists to the contrary (really "Christian" of you, isn't it...?)
What it crystallizes is that you can't read or you lack the cognitive abilities to formulate thought.
If the above quote is what you got from my posting you're in bad shape.
EDIT:
And while you're at it, show me some of this:
and think he's a liar no matter what exists to the contrary
I can't wait to see the proof that he doesn't lie (this ought to be some good stuff).
(really "Christian" of you, isn't it...?)
How do you know I am a Christian? Did I say I was? If I did am I telling the truth?
How do you know or do you?
AR15_Fanatic
09-12-2008, 23:53
Let's get a few things straight off the bat, cowboy. I will not tolerate you using this board to smear myself and other people. You've got a 10 day ban from this forum. Further smartaleck remarks will get you more.
I think I've been fairly clear what my position is on this matter and you refuse to read it.
COBRADOC
09-13-2008, 08:44
Let's get a few things straight off the bat, cowboy. I will not tolerate you using this board to smear myself and other people. You've got a 10 day ban from this forum. Further smartaleck remarks will get you more.
I think I've been fairly clear what my position is on this matter and you refuse to read it.
Personally, I think you both need to be banned. Who's the chief moderator of this forum?
Yeah, let's just make the Political Chit Chat forum a full-on hate Obama site. There aren't enough of those yet. <_<
COBRADOC
09-13-2008, 14:01
Yeah, let's just make the Political Chit Chat forum a full-on hate Obama site. There aren't enough of those yet. <_<
freesw, I don't hate Obama. Actually I don't hate anyone (Jane Fonda comes close, but I don't hate her). But he is asking me to vote for him to be the next President of the United States.
I'm not going to vote for anyone for anything unless I totally evaluate them and their positions, warts and all. And the more I look at Obama, the less I see. Furthermore, the more I know of him, the more it just scares the mortal crap out of me that this man may actually get elected to this office. God help us if he does. The man is an empty suit - a hollow rhetoric. But I don't hate him.
... But he is asking me to vote for him to be the next President of the United States.
...
And you appear to think that excuses repeating tired accusations against him. At least that's what one must conclude from your OP. You say to read up on liberation theology, but what do you actually know about it, other than what you've read of it on sites that condemn it? Its roots are in the old testament accounts of the exodus, the old testament teachings of the prophets, which, I might add, make for very interesting reading that will make apologists for cutthroat capitalism nervous in direct proportion to their faith, and in the plain and unmistakable teachings and example of Jesus Christ himself. it is true that liberation theology has been misused by some to justify their prejudices and biases, and I think it's clear that some of Wright's speech is in this category. But this guilt by association is nonsense. Obama himself has never given any sign whatsoever of having any of those kinds of views. You and the rest that slam him for his membership in that Church are either just using it as an excuse to bash him, or else seem to think that people should live in a cocoon, a ghetto, of those just like them, and should constantly guard against even hearing any points of view that could possibly be contrary to what the predominant culture says are mainstream American values. This point of view is, in fact, fundamentally unAmerican. As is guilt by association.
The best definition I have read about this religion is: "Black liberation theology is radical theology that preaches racism and Marxism disguised as Christianity."
Yeah, so where did you read this "best definition"?
Do you believe in letting people speak for themselves?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89236116
Yes, please do read up on the subject before you go repeating what someone else with an agenda only to bash purports to know about it.
AR15_Fanatic
09-13-2008, 15:40
Yeah, so where did you read this "best definition"?
Do you believe in letting people speak for themselves?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89236116
Yes, please do read up on the subject before you go repeating what someone else with an agenda only to bash purports to know about it.
Which comes full circle back to my original point that Obama's church is a Christian church with a black liberation philosophy and interpretation of the Bible, not a completely different religion as some have speculated.
COBRADOC
09-13-2008, 19:01
AR15, freesw, When someone, anyone, mixes a lot of truth in with untruthes such as racial hatred and Marxism it becomes very easy to accept the entire doctrine or theology as all truth. Watch this interview it James Cone and make your own judgement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1X5sZ6Q4Fw
COBRADOC, if you have a problem with Cone's emphasis on "blackness," why are you criticizing him?
Better you should look towards those that imposed "blackness" and all that entailed (and to some extent still entails) on black people for the last 400 years.
Their point of view is entirely understandable. Place the fault for racial divisions where it belongs: on white racists.
Yes I'm playing the history card. It is what it is.
COBRADOC
09-14-2008, 10:03
COBRADOC, if you have a problem with Cone's emphasis on "blackness," why are you criticizing him?
Better you should look towards those that imposed "blackness" and all that entailed (and to some extent still entails) on black people for the last 400 years.
Their point of view is entirely understandable. Place the fault for racial divisions where it belongs: on white racists.
Yes I'm playing the history card. It is what it is.
Mix a little "Jesus" in with just about anything and you can sell it to somebody.
"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and done many wonderous works in your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of iniquity". Matthew 7:21-23
Rugermann
09-14-2008, 11:11
Bottom line fellas----whether Obama is a Muslim or Christian or atheist or whatever-he is a Marxist!
His beliefs indicate his desire for MUCH more Government control of our lives!
EVERY aspect of our lives.
I , for one, do not want anyone (Democrat, Republican, Independant, Anarchist, Libertarian.......) with those world views in the White House.
PERIOD.
Jeff
Rugermann
09-14-2008, 11:23
And this pretty much crystalizes it. You could care less about what the man claims or looking for any evidence that the man is not this. You just hate Obama, a man you have never even met and know very little about, and think he's a liar no matter what exists to the contrary (really "Christian" of you, isn't it...?)
Wow, does one have to have met a person to have an informed opinion about them?? You see AR15 Fanatic I do ALOT of reading, especially history, I love history.
So, based on my reading(I have never met them personally) I detest these people:
Karl Marx, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Goebbells, Heinrich Himmler, and many, many others. And quite frankly, I will add to this list Barack Hussein Obama. He is a Marxist to the hilt!
Jeff
We've already had a discussion on whether Obama can be properly classified as a "marxist," and I proved his record corresponds to mainstream Christian social teachings (I specifically chose Catholic, being the largest, but it would apply equally with virtually any sizable denomination, aside from some differences with one that I can think of off the top of my head). I stipulate that abortion is the one major - and yes it's important - difference. But you can't make a case for "marxism" from that. And I'm not suggesting anything about non-denominational churches by this; only that it's impossible to characterize their teachings on social relations.
Equally important, Obama does not have some of the fundamental characteristics of marxism. No one here has made an even slightly effective case that Obama is marxist, and for good reason: He isn't.
http://perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64149
If you think anyone has, point me to the thread.
Mix a little "Jesus" in with just about anything and you can sell it to somebody.
"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and done many wonderous works in your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of iniquity". Matthew 7:21-23
I wasn't sure whether to respond to this or not, but I think it needs to be responded to. You're on dangerous spiritual territory when you start passing that kind of judgment -- oh sure, you may say you're just tossing that out for people to consider, but why would you do that in reference to Obama specifically? Does not that warning apply to all? Why would you imply such a thing about Obama and not any other politician?
AR15_Fanatic
09-14-2008, 14:42
Wow, does one have to have met a person to have an informed opinion about them?? You see AR15 Fanatic I do ALOT of reading, especially history, I love history.
So, based on my reading(I have never met them personally) I detest these people:
Karl Marx, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Goebbells, Heinrich Himmler, and many, many others. And quite frankly, I will add to this list Barack Hussein Obama. He is a Marxist to the hilt!
Jeff
All well in well, Jeff, but the original discussion in this thread was on Obama's religious beliefs and not on his philisophical and political beliefs. Of which you will find nothing in his background to indicate that the man is of the Islamic faith.
AR15_Fanatic
09-14-2008, 14:44
Bottom line fellas----whether Obama is a Muslim or Christian or atheist or whatever-he is a Marxist!
His beliefs indicate his desire for MUCH more Government control of our lives!
EVERY aspect of our lives.
I , for one, do not want anyone (Democrat, Republican, Independant, Anarchist, Libertarian.......) with those world views in the White House.
PERIOD.
Jeff
Err....I think you mean Statist and not Marxist here.
Actually, Obama and the Democratic party generally are too statist for my liking. But I prefer that to today's GOP, which bloats government, turns every appointed position into a plum for partisan cronies, and thereby renders it incompetent.
And I will say this, on the slimmest thread of hope, if McCain is elected, and if he actually does turn out to be the reformer he claims to be, then perhaps the GOP can be restored to its former glory. But I view that as a very slim hope. When it first became apparent that McCain was likely to be the Republican nominee, I thought that was great. To say that I've been disappointed by his obvious selling out to the special interests at the rotten core of the GOP is a massive understatement.
COBRADOC
09-14-2008, 22:56
I wasn't sure whether to respond to this or not, but I think it needs to be responded to. You're on dangerous spiritual territory when you start passing that kind of judgment -- oh sure, you may say you're just tossing that out for people to consider, but why would you do that in reference to Obama specifically? Does not that warning apply to all? Why would you imply such a thing about Obama and not any other politician?
It's not about Obama as much as it is about Black Liberation Theology. But if he's riding on the bus, I don't care what he says, he's going where the bus goes.
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