View Full Version : This what we should unite against!
Instead of worrying about Edwards affair, complaining about Obama, or th e Tyson union contract we should all unite against the attack on America that happens too often!
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/08/md-mayor-to-cal.html
kralizec
08-10-2008, 01:50
Funny how no disciplinary action for the shooters has been mentioned. They haven't even been identified. They must be the "secret police". This isn't the first time something like this,or worse has happened in MD. O'malley, the governor, recently unveiled a new assault vehicle to be used by the state police for some purpose which was never fully explained.
mnottfam
08-10-2008, 09:43
Oh no, I mistook that (playful bark of a dog for a pre-attack growl;), a child's squirt-gun as an attempt to kill me;), an insulin pump under a shirt for a gun;), etc.) and shot the individual DEAD.:D
OH NO!!:o NOT A MONTH OFF!!! WITH PAY!?!?!?!:o I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE A <snif> PAID VACATION!!!!! Oh the HORRORS!!:o
Now, if this individual WEREN'T a police officer, but an average citizen, they'd be frog-marched to jail with the MSM blaring LOUDLY that this particular "criminal" is finally off the streets.:blink:
This is just the tip of the iceberg here, folks...
Remember, the War on Drugs is a misnomer. It's a war against people. And sometimes against dogs.
Plenty of blame to go around for this. Follow the money, and follow the rhetoric. As long as politicians can't speak out about the folly of the drug war without being defeated in the next election by ads portraying them as siding with drug dealers (as if drug dealers don't benefit from prohibition), this will go on.
mnottfam
08-10-2008, 17:01
In case it's not obvious by now, I have a problem with racism. If you think you should get special treatment because of your skin color, you're a racist.
Now that said, to get to my point...
I was in Kansas City a few years ago, got off our train, and got into a cab to go home. The driver was black--who cares--and was a friendly and intelligent sort. We got on well. The conversation gradually turned to "law enforcement officers," and the cr@p they get away with. He then tells me that it's a "racial issue."<_< I quickly started to turn him off, he caught my quickening look of disinterest, and said, "yeah, they're the blue race." My intrigue peaked, and the discussion resumed. His point: the cops get a superiority complex that has them better than us, as well as being above the very law they're supposed to be upholding. It only applies to us. NOT THEM. Receiving their badges, they become members of the elite "blue race."
I went (for fluid power--hydraulics, pneumatics, and their electrical controls) to a tech school that had one of the largest "law enforcement" programs in the country. Many was a time we'd head down to the student lounge, and there'd be a table full of these cop "wannabe's" all whining about how they felt they'd been "screwed over" for all of their (18 year-old) lives, and how they were going to get badges and it was going to then be THEIR turn!! I love having to share my highways with these "super-race" members.:angry: Their numbers are only going to rise as socialists in favor of big government realize that they need a bigger and bigger loyal police force to jackboot our rights into the ground. Their atrocities will only become more pronounced and more common-place as they become more and more emboldened by a more and more power-hungry govt. For those of you who are "bush-haters," you ain't seen nothing yet. If the liberals don't get their Mr. Obama this time around, and we get Mr. McCain, guaranteed, the one they use instead of Mr. Obama next time around will be worse.
I'd like to know how fired-up this Mayor was on this topic when it was only us peons waiting for the knock on the door. It's a little different when it's you're own door, isn't it Mr Mayor?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlUVGf8B2yc&feature=related
Why would he ask for a federal investigation? The feds are experts at using these type of tactics.
The problem with this system is that it hires thugs that WANT to hurt people. It won't be the Army or Marines coming for your guns it will be your local Gestapo.In my humble opinion the mayor should get to kill the pigs that killed his 2 dogs. After all in most jurisdictions if you kill or harm a police dog its the same as if it were a human cop.When in fact the dog has much more integrity than the pigs. Again in my humble opinion there are no good cops. Just thugs that enjoy harming decent human beings. Frank
p35bhp55
08-11-2008, 08:32
"Again in my humble opinion there are no good cops. Just thugs that enjoy harming decent human beings." Frank
While there does seem to be a decline in values, that statement is too far out there for me.
That over-generalization just sets you up to be proven wrong, RDHNTR, as well as making sure your demeanor at your next encounter with an officer is not one ensuring a short, hassle-free contact. I wouldn't want to go through life assuming everyone else was evil, or an idiot, or whatever assumption you could lump everyone into. At best you'll end up with a reputation as a curmudgeon, at worst someone who is considered confrontational and potentially dangerous.
Seen that video of the driver in a red SUV cursing a blue streak at a trooper over a speeding ticket? You couldn't ask for a more patient cop.
mnottfam
08-11-2008, 11:11
Well, yes, that is a little TOO generalized, but it's not very far from the truth. It's a huge power play, inflating their egos to the point of bursting. I've met far too few cops who refused to exchange their membership to the human race for their badges. It's a shame that the majority of them are these egotistical, "better than the rest of us" types. There was once a time when the majority weren't that way. The cop on the street was a guy that, 9 times out of 10, you could trust. Those days are LONG GONE.
The other statement was right, as well. Our forefathers were terrified of a "standing military." Why? Something we never understood in school was that they could be afraid of the US Army, or Marine corps. Why? Well, for starters, it WASN'T our nation's (or even their previous nations (totally, anyway)) military they feared. It was jack-booted thugs in government uniform that had the ability to kick down your door, with you having no recourse against them. BATFE? HELLLOOOO??? Department For Homeland Security? ANYBODY THERE!?!?!?! We NOW have the "standing military" that our nation's forefathers were so terrified of. "Security Forces" that have to answer to no one. Ask the Branch Dividians. Ask Randy Weaver what kind of penalty a 1st degree coldblooded murderer gets when he's wearing an FBI jacket when he commits his crime. How about an angry (alleged) lesbian for an attorney general, Janet "for the kids" Reno. Any system that allows someone like her, with her track-record of shenanigans she had in Florida, to become someone of such power in our nation's govt as she did is WAY WACKED!! No folks, our nation's "law enforcement community" is out of control, and it's just going to get worse.
azsigman
08-11-2008, 12:19
As a retired LEO, I DEEPLY resent the assinine opinions and comments on this thread. Since it has not been locked, nor have any of these cop hating jerks been chastised by the moderators, I can only assume that you must agree with them. Great forum you run here.
I'll readily agree there is way too little accountability in law enforcement sometimes, but I think it is a symptom of a systemic lack of it. Where is it written that simply because you didn't mean to, that you were told by a known criminal (under oath or not) that something was so, that you then take it upon yourself to wreck someone's life that it turns out had nothing to do with anything? So, who's fault is that? Whoever authorized the kicking of the door, that's who.
There have been way too many instances of innocents having their doors kicked in simply because an informant picked their house out. And heaven help you if you exercise your right to self defense after "police" is (shouted? whispered?) and the door caves in, because there aren't many grand juries that will ding a cop that had a gun pointed at him for shooting that innocent homeowner. The cop may have been legitimately afraid for his life, but with the whole act of entering the home tainted from the word go, I think whoever believed said informant and decided that was enough to go against a house like that should be liable for the homicide. But the buck gets passed, nobody wants to take the blame or point the finger at someone, unless its the informant, and he's as likely to already be doing time as not anyway.
So, you think they believe they are better than us? Some probably do, but I think most of it is trying to maintain the position of authority they have been sworn into. Much of it is also called "esprit". That attitude of being part of a uniform service. It what gets the Marines in so many fights with the other services. Esprit de Corps. Most cops in larger organizations worked hard to get there. Most fell short, sometimes as much as 90%, leaving the rest with a sense of accomplishment, of overcoming a great many obstacles to get where they are. The ones that have forgotten what they learned getting there are left with simple arrogance, risking being proven wrong should they go to court, since they've not maintained a sense of pride in knowing their job inside and out.
I will not, however, go out on that limb and declare most cops are crooked, evil, bad, guilty of criminal acts or whatever. Nobody will ever know the doors that did not get kicked in because a good cop told an informant they'd have to do better than an address. Nobody notices when good cops do what we expect of them, because nothing bad happens. Do we notice when a cop goes the extra bit and actually gets our stolen property back from that little **** down the street? Not likely for very long. They've got a virtually impossible job to do, that we've asked them all to do whether we admit to it or not, and since we're from the same gene pool as the police hire from they are a reflection of the public they serve, whether by their inherant attitude or the way they are trained and supervised. And you can't opt out of society simply by saying "I didn't hire them", since you are part of the community and the people you elected supervised the hiring. The public has the responsibility to let their government know in no uncertain terms when those that serve them go too far, whether its the Mayor, Chief of Police, Nuisance Inspector, whatever.
Now, can we please stop lumping people together like we have? I wonder how some of you guys would feel if someone made a negative generalization about your branch of service, your church, drivers of certain vehicles, race, level of schooling, or whatever. It wouldn't be right then either.
And if someone wants to go back and find an instance where I've done just such a thing, I'll take my lumps while I plead temporary insanity.
Seems you hit all the important aspects of this issue, and I agree 100%
Just as having physicians spend a few nights in a hospital bed can make them more aware of how they impact a patient's life, maybe putting the police through the receiving end of some police actions can point out better how the public sees what they do. Just an idea.
Don't give up on the whole forum, azsigman.
..........Now, can we please stop lumping people together like we have? I wonder how some of you guys would feel if someone made a negative generalization about your branch of service, your church, drivers of certain vehicles, race, level of schooling, or whatever. It wouldn't be right then either.........
Amen! Take the high road guys! Not every fill in the blank is evil.
As a retired LEO, I DEEPLY resent the assinine opinions and comments on this thread. Since it has not been locked, nor have any of these cop hating jerks been chastised by the moderators, I can only assume that you must agree with them. Great forum you run here.
Sometimes we need to talk things through, locking up threads before giving them a chance to wade through the intial anger isn't always right. I think that you might be suprised that some have and most likely will come to the defense. 1st A can work.
As a retired LEO, I DEEPLY resent the assinine opinions and comments on this thread. Since it has not been locked, nor have any of these cop hating jerks been chastised by the moderators, I can only assume that you must agree with them. Great forum you run here.
Please do not ASSUME that we, as MODERATORS agree, or disagree with anyone. Moderators here at PERFECT UNION are in short supply as of late, and we cannot jump into every single thread the instant things may seem to go awry. We also cannot read every single post, and every single word in a thread.
We DO have a great forum, thank you very much. It is asked that you be PATIENT with things.
For Everyone. This BOARD has a strict Policy of CIVILITY. Please keep insulting comments at bay.
We do value freedom of speech here, and encourage peoples opinions, but NOT when it comes down to INSULTING others. No one has that right.
If you have NOT done so, PLEASE read the BOARD RULES.
This thread will remain OPEN, with the agreement that it will resume, and REMAIN CIVIL!
Thank you all.
mnottfam
08-11-2008, 18:49
I'm tired of apologizing. I can only state what I've seen. For the record, I HAVE met several decent police officers:). Usually (not always, but usually) they're members of small-town, rural agencies. The kind of HUMAN BEING that reminds one of Mayberry. They DO still exist:D.
But the MAJORITY of police officers I've met have had HUGE chips on their shoulders. I treat them with the DECENCY and RESPECT their UNIFORM deserves,:) and I get hostility and attitude back from them:o. No.:angry: No apologies. I refuse to feel sorry for disliking condescending elitists.
I do understand that a lot of the problems stem from a rampant, runaway court system that I've been victimized by--I hate that term too, but what do you call a $335 fine and suspended month in jail for passing on the right (in MN, 20 years ago)--when a multiple convicted drug dealer gets a $100 fine and 1 month detox, with all kinds of court ordered socialist programs thrown his way? I CAN understand a cops frustration with having to operate within a system like that, but that is NO REASON TO TAKE IT OUT ON Mr. John Q. PUBLIC!!!!!!!
NO EXCUSE!! I've worked a lot of jobs over the decades, and came to this conclusion a LONG time ago--Life is too short, and you spend WAY too much of it at work, to hate what you do for a living. You don't like it, QUIT!!! Find something else to do for a living, but for cryin' out loud don't stay with it and take it out ON US!!!!
I'd buy that for a dollar. +1.
I really don't think we're all that far from agreeing here if we think about it. Everyone deserves to be taken as an individual and treated decently until proven otherwise. For the most part, we all do that. If I get attitude from someone, I just smile, say yes sir/ma'am, and get through it. If it's over the top, there's always the phone later, or a letter. It all works the same, whether it's a server in a restaurant, DMV, or contact with a police officer.
DocWagon
08-12-2008, 20:18
There are several LEOs on this forum, some more open about it than others. Have any of them displayed the attitudes that 'the cops' are having attached to them in this thread? Personally, I was more arrogant as a 19 year old combat engineer (C-4 brings out the evil in me...;)) than as a 30 year old cop, but that's just me.
As far as the kids sitting around at the community college talking, how many of them earned a police badge and how many are mall guards or chasing some different goal now?
I highly recommend you try a few ride alongs with a local PD/SD and get involved a bit. See what you think after a bit of exposure to the realm of LEO.
mnottfam
08-12-2008, 20:38
As I've said, I can only go by what I've personally witnessed. It's very unfortunate that so many of our LEO's are this way. I'm sure not all are that way, as I HAVE met some who DID refuse to surrender their membership to the human race for their badges. They are a unique and (to me) cherished minority. Sorry to any of you who ARE or HAVE BEEN "Peace Officers" who have taken offense to my dislike for the status quo "Law Enforcement Officers," but, as again stated previous, I do NOT apologize for disliking the condescending elitists I've had the distinct displeasure of having had to deal with, who even after I've given them my polite and courteous interaction, refusing to get indignant with them, they still act like the hotheads they are. I show ALL officers the respect their uniforms deserve, regardless of the fact that the majority of those I've met filling those uniforms DESERVE the same level of respect of your average back-alley thug. Both live by terrorizing others and get off on their ability to cause pain and suffering.
I CAN ONLY RELATE THAT WHICH I HAVE WITNESSED IN MY "Exposure to the law enforcement realm."
The bottom line of that observation is that the "Peace Officer" is a dying breed. The majority of cops out there today have little respect for the rights of their fellow citizens, and are nothing more than tax agents of the state. Face it, the majority of what your average police officer does is collect income for his/her state/county/municipality, and has no desire whatsoever to actually promote public safety. I REALLY wish my personal observations have seen differently.
I cannot change what I have witnessed.
You seem dead set on assuming that the few examples you've been exposed to, possibly including those related to you in other rants, and maybe what you've seen on TV and in films, are representative of the majority. IMO that is one huge assumption.
I second Doc's suggestion. Get out and see for yourself, first hand and with an open mind. If you witness something you don't agree with, when you're back in the car with the officer have him explain it to you. If he's wrong, he's wrong, and it's your right to disagree, but there are often very good reasons for how things are done.
...I highly recommend you try a few ride alongs with a local PD/SD and get involved a bit. See what you think after a bit of exposure to the realm of LEO.
I've done that, but I also witnessed some things that I should not have seen the police doing. Some officers don't like riders. It's not because they fear for your safety, but perhaps they don't want you to see them as they really are. They're human, but nobody should be above the law. Some officers see the public with an us versus them mentality, as if they were the only law abiding people out there. Many officers look away when they see or know of a fellow officer involved with drugs. Perhaps they fear that when they really need back-up, it won't be there because they snitched on a co-worker. This is why every department should have a random drug testing policy. I could go on and on, but perhaps the police should address some of these issues instead of denying them or being offended when they are brought up.
DocWagon
08-13-2008, 13:58
Face it, the majority of what your average police officer does is collect income for his/her state/county/municipality, and has no desire whatsoever to actually promote public safety.
I wish that were true in my area. Maybe it is in Mayberry, but not where violent crime is fairly routine. If all I had to do was write tickets it would be both easier and safer. This month I have more felony arrests than traffic citations, although that's not the norm for me because I like to run traffic and issue more than the average district officer. The average for my district is in the neighborhood of 4/month. That said, traffic enforcement is public safety. For the majority of you a traffic crash is your most likely source of injury or loss of property as opposed to violent crime, which tends to be criminal on criminal.
I understand that the majority of citizens only contact with the PD is through traffic stops, but just because that's how you meet us doesn't mean that's all we're doing or even most of what we're doing. As a district car/beat car what I'm doing mostly is responding to calls for service.
mnottfam
08-13-2008, 14:46
I've done that, but I also witnessed some things that I should not have seen the police doing. Some officers don't like riders. It's not because they fear for your safety, but perhaps they don't want you to see them as they really are. They're human, but nobody should be above the law. Some officers see the public with an us versus them mentality, as if they were the only law abiding people out there. Many officers look away when they see or know of a fellow officer involved with drugs. Perhaps they fear that when they really need back-up, it won't be there because they snitched on a co-worker. This is why every department should have a random drug testing policy. I could go on and on, but perhaps the police should address some of these issues instead of denying them or being offended when they are brought up.
I suppose it's safest to assume that the old addage, "power corrupts" fits most often. What we have is a trade that leans on these people and treats them as "super-humans," or, as that one guy put it, as members of a "master race," impervious to the whims and desires that the rest of us "normal" people are subject to. THAT could be where we're REALLY getting into trouble--by treating our LEO's as infallible in court, when they're NOT, they're just HUMAN BEINGS LIKE THE REST OF US, prone to make MISTAKES, like the rest of the HUMAN RACE. Our courts don't see it that way, though. For instance, what an officer THINKS he heard someone say is admissible as evidence in court. Wow, that kind of invasion of privacy must suck--I mean, poor cops getting forced to subject themselves to having recording devices surgically implanted as to make their hearing and memory to be perfect, to the point that it can be used against the word of an "average, ordinary guy," whose word of memory says otherwise!
Don't give me that training BS either. Cops are people, too. Plain and simple. Corruptible, offendable, emotional, happy, sad, forgetful, angry, insecure, resolute, irritable, easy-going, hateful, friendly, and every other emotion or simple state of mind one can think of. They are NOT perfect, nor are they super-human. Look at the BATFE. Power corrupts? Absolutely. The FBI? You better believe it (Ask Lon Horiuchi). Our state, county, and municipal police forces? You tell me...<_<
ncroamer65
08-13-2008, 15:25
As one of the officers siad "the mother-in-law saw the police coming
across the backyard and compromised the police presents". I still
don't see the "no knock" entery the police used in this case !!!
I suppose it's safest to assume that the old addage, "power corrupts" fits most often. What we have is a trade that leans on these people and treats them as "super-humans," or, as that one guy put it, as members of a "master race," impervious to the whims and desires that the rest of us "normal" people are subject to. THAT could be where we're REALLY getting into trouble--by treating our LEO's as infallible in court, when they're NOT, they're just HUMAN BEINGS LIKE THE REST OF US, prone to make MISTAKES, like the rest of the HUMAN RACE. Our courts don't see it that way, though. For instance, what an officer THINKS he heard someone say is admissible as evidence in court. Wow, that kind of invasion of privacy must suck--I mean, poor cops getting forced to subject themselves to having recording devices surgically implanted as to make their hearing and memory to be perfect, to the point that it can be used against the word of an "average, ordinary guy," whose word of memory says otherwise!
Don't give me that training BS either. Cops are people, too. Plain and simple. Corruptible, offendable, emotional, happy, sad, forgetful, angry, insecure, resolute, irritable, easy-going, hateful, friendly, and every other emotion or simple state of mind one can think of. They are NOT perfect, nor are they super-human. Look at the BATFE. Power corrupts? Absolutely. The FBI? You better believe it (Ask Lon Horiuchi). Our state, county, and municipal police forces? You tell me...<_<
Cops aren't perfect, that's true. What they're supposed to be are the best that can be hired, after weeding out the worst of the easily offendable, insecure, quick-to-anger, and all the other undesirable traits. People that can't remember things they see and hear and therefor write incomplete and inaccurate reports don't last long. People that are too quick to go to physical force don't either. In general.
What I see here is an acknowledgment that cops are human too, but that they're all somehow corrupt, crooked, lazy, hateful, swaggering gunslingers that would as soon shoot you as not. I see lip service paid to the fact that all aren't like that, but then it's turned right around and all police, in the next sentence or paragraph, are lumped together with the very few that have demonstrated they cannot behave like professional police officers.
I submit that nobody here would find it fair or accurate to have all of us gun owners lumped together with the likes of the DC sniper or any other homicidal maniac with a gun in the last (pick your number) years. That is exactly what Pelosi and Schumer are doing every time they submit another gun ban bill. Please don't Pelosi or Schumer the police because of a very small percentage of bad ones.
It would be refreshing to see the chief of police come out and say that he screwed up, offer an apology, and then submit his resignation.
mnottfam
08-14-2008, 09:46
It would be refreshing to see the chief of police come out and say that he screwed up, offer an apology, and then submit his resignation.
Refreshing, yes, but HIGHLY unlikely. The problems here have so many base causes that it would be impossible to accurately point the finger in any one direction. We, as lazy, complacent, American citizens, have come to rely on fellow human beings to be our total and complete law enforcement, to the point of willingly giving up our rights. How far is it going to have to go before we come to our senses and start reigning in the ever-increasing powers of our government? Here's a simple question--Who do the LEO's owe their power to? The citizenry or the govt.? THIS question DOES cover one and all LEO's. Do I have the power to DEMAND that a cop, paid by MY TAX DOLLARS, uphold the law? No. If I get adamant about it, depending on the locale and PERSONAL ATTITUDE of the cop in question, I can go to jail for such. We get right back into the "cops are infallible" argument.
Mark, it's awful hard to NOT generalize the LEO's when they all have access to the same power, and by nature their jobs require them to uphold the govt. over the individual. Randy Weaver and his family just wanted to be left alone, and thought he could manage to do so by living WAY out in the sticks. Look what it got him. The govt. sought him out, and WHO did they use to do it? The Girl Scouts? No no wait, I know!!--they sent the department of Agriculture and their armed thugs after them! No, wait, that's not right either. Hmm. The standing military--the US ARMY? No, that's not it either. NOW I know!! The STATE POLICE, the BATFE, the FBI, the MARSHALL'S office (did I miss any LE agency in there? ). How many people were involved in that little fiasco? How many of these "peace officers" had the chance to step back and say, "wait a minute--what harm are they doing holed up in a cabin like that? Why the H are they so far away from everyone? What harm would I be doing to obey this order to shoot them on sight, without even giving them a chance to surrender? Why was I ordered to shoot them even IF they try to surrender? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing as a "trusted" law enforcement officer? Am I upholding the law by shooting this mother in the head as she holds the door open for her family, while she's holding her baby in her arms? Am I, by following these orders, breaking the law myself?
OR AM I ABOVE THE LAW, ABLE TO DO WHATEVER MY SUPERIORS TELL ME, WITH NO CONSEQUENCES TO ME OR MY CAREER, ABLE TO USE THE "I WAS JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS" EXCUSE EFFECTIVELY? Ask anyone who's studied the Nuremburg war trials--THAT defense doesn't wash!!!!! Apparently, in modern America, it does.
As for calling "my personal experiences" into question, maybe the problem is that you've watched a little too much TV. Those "glory cops" shows come on, I turn the idiot-box off. I base my opinions on what I've personally witnessed, not by what some f** TV script-writer who's mad at his live-in boyfriend wrote for one of those stupid CSI shows.
I have witnessed a VERY small minority of police officers who've refused to trade off their membership to the human race for their badges. They are very few and very far between, in my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I treat ALL leo's with the respect their uniform requires, regardless of the size of the chip on their shoulders. I wish there were more of them of the general type that you can find it EASY to respect. I have a hard time continuing to display courtesy and respect to someone who clearly hates my guts, hates my rights, and more than likely, hates his job, but I still do. Why? Because once the line has been crossed, and he's shown by his attitude that he is indeed one of these "I'm above the law I'm ramming down your throat" types, if I want to stay out of his even MORE powerful realm of court and jail, I have to subjugate my self to him and hope I can placate him enough to just get the H away from him before he fabricates something, like walking to the back of my vehicle and smashing a taillight and claiming that he's writing me up for that too (has happened. don't feed me any "you made that up" lines).
I will NOT apologize for being angry with a system that continues to invite people like that into its ranks. The state of SD USED to be a "small-town attitude" with their state police, until they built an academy in Pierre. Now, they seem to be attracting the more big-city, no sense of humor, chip on the shoulder types. It's a shame. Where can a "modern Randy Weaver" go to exist and live within society and be left alone, but not HAVE to go all the way out to the sticks? SD is NOT a high-populous state, and the problems are even getting out here, too. I got as far away from the Soviet Socialist State of MN as I could within my current job. I may have to give this job up and move even farther out. Where?:blink: I don't know.
I'm a firm believer in the US Constitution, and more importantly, its Bill of Rights. I believe that I have the right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, and that everyone else does too. When the laws of the land, and those that enforce them, get to violating those fundamental rights as a matter of policy, something's wrong, and needs to be changed. All I can do within my personal power is vote as best I can. I fear it's not enough.:(
DocWagon
08-14-2008, 14:39
I lived in the sticks for years. Lived in an old single wide trailer that my grandfather, father, and I had built onto to make it a permanent house. No city water, no cable, no cell signal, etc. I even had a range out back and, as a competition shooter, was shooting a minimum of 100 rounds every 3 days for awhile. Can't recall the police ever coming on my property at all. I wonder how I, and all of my neighbors, managed to fly under the radar with all these agencies just waiting to swoop. Come to think of it, the only time police have been on any of my properties at any time in my life was when we called them, or since I've been sworn, friends visiting.
The fact you can't tell me to enforce the law doesn't mean I'm infallible, it just means that I have discretion. Maybe I know what the law actually requires, or what the prosecutor will file on, or what the burden of proof is, or what the limits of my authority to arrest for unwitnessed offenses are and if I can outright or have to file for a warrant. Maybe its a civil issue, where I don't have authority to intrude. etc. etc. If you don't like my decision, you are free to talk to a supervisor. If you don't like my sergeant's decision you are free to bypass the executive branch all together and talk to the prosecutor yourself about filing charges. Some states will allow you to make the arrest yourself by filling out the paperwork in front of the officer. Then the civil liability is yours, not the officers.
Funny how on one hand most all cops are just dying to make every arrest possible and throw that authority around, but on the other hand someone's apparently not making an arrest when you want it done. Funny how "just following orders" is linked to Nazis, but failure to follow citizen's orders is also decried as a failure of police.
I've had a few experiences with the police, not all of them pleasant. In one I believe I was mistreated somewhat, but nothing too excessive and I was able to get the situation rectified a few days later. That's not important except to mention my background on this since I haven't had all that much interaction with police.
Some of the comments I'm reading here are disturbing. In particular, it is clear that mnottfam has had a bad enough experience with at least one law enforcement officer that he's now quite adamant in his opinion of them. I don't know what he's seen, obviously, and I don't know what's going on with the police in the rest of the country besides Austin other than what I read in the news. I know this much: police have to be wary every routine traffic stop, and it doesn't surprise me one bit that they might be humorless about it. They get spit on, cursed, and worse, and expected to handle it professionally every single occasion day after day.
Like many, I'm concerned about the growth of prisons, law enforcement agencies with questionable agendas, the growing perception at least of militarization within some parts of law enforcement, both locally and federal, and examples we've seen of law enforcement officers unaware of laws and negligent of their duties or even corrupt. I'm not excusing beatings but there have always been beatings and now we're just seeing more of them because of the proliferation of cameras. There are reasons to believe there's less of it than forty years ago. Clearly it can never be excused, once a prisoner is restrained or compliant, and the guilty have to be sanctioned or fired or charged with crimes.
I just think that we should consider the officers' circumstances when their actions or words come across as overly aggressive. Think about what it might be like to work a shift in their shoes, and to do that every day. We've got some serious crime problems in this country, and one effect of globalization is that we're getting some of the criminal scum of the earth making their way into our borders. We need tough law enforcement officers to combat them. We also need to think hard as a country how to reduce crime in ways other than simply more police and prisons. I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone's posting (well, except for the broad-brush condemnations). I'm concerned to see such fear and dislike, if those words aren't too strong to describe what I think is being expressed, for police in general.
To wish for a Mayberry-like police force is to miss the good old days as they never were.
mnottfam
08-14-2008, 16:54
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
And ...?
What is that in reference to?
Cops stepping over the line at times aren't compromising liberties on a national level as Franklin was warning against. There are mechanisms in place to resolve such transgressions to the satisfaction of our system of justice, even if it doesn't make everyone happy.
collegeb
08-14-2008, 18:18
The police are fortunate that the mayor did not have a gun at his bedside. He'd be dead and some cop probably would be as well. Very unfortunate he and his family went through this. More politicians need to receive drugs and be violated, then this war on people and liberty can end.
mnottfam
08-14-2008, 18:28
FINALLY!! Someone who gets where I was headed!!
billdeserthills
08-14-2008, 20:39
The police are fortunate that the mayor did not have a gun at his bedside. He'd be dead and some cop probably would be as well. Very unfortunate he and his family went through this. More politicians need to receive drugs and be violated, then this war on people and liberty can end.
Actually I am glad this did happen. Maybe now this type of abuse can begin to be dealt with, it seems that all too often an innocent citizen is being traumatized or killed due to a "mistake" made by the abusers of authority.
While it is obvious that not all authority is evil, too much is for my taste.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10001149-93.html
At least the official response was relatively swift. Another case of video greasing the wheels no doubt. "Laws" forbidding photographing public employees tread a very shakey line.
DocWagon
08-15-2008, 15:00
Maybe, maybe not. What happened 15 seconds or 20 yards before the video footage?
Maybe, maybe not. What happened 15 seconds or 20 yards before the video footage?
Unless the guy on the bicycle just committed a serious crime or posed a serious threat, the action taken by the officer appeared to be excessive or inappropriate. Either the cyclist or the officer could have lost their cool. It happens!
Maybe, maybe not. What happened 15 seconds or 20 yards before the video footage?
What could he have done? Damaged a vehicle? Thrown a paint balloon? There was no evidence for it. They charged the cyclist for crimes supposedly related to the collision with the officer:
"The bicyclist, Christopher Long, 29, was charged with blocking traffic, resisting arrest, disorderly conduct, and assault, prosecutors said."
NOT for anything that allegedly occurred before. Only the video tells the truth about the collision. That cyclist - or a bystander, given how crowded the sidewalk was - could have been seriously injured. Unless the NYPD is holding back some info, which is possible but unlikely, the officer should be fired and charged with assault.
mnottfam
08-17-2008, 22:45
GOOD GRIEF!! I agree with SW again?!:o How can that be?!:blink: I know, maybe it's just that I've spent the past 12 hours getting slow roasted in locomotive cabs...
You guys really should push for air conditioning in the cabs...and some sound insulation!
mnottfam
08-17-2008, 23:03
Well, the NEW ones HAVE both!! You get spoiled rotten on those ones in a hurry. The only problem is, working for the Donald, Mickey, & Eeyore (I'll let you guys figure that one out), the newest units we run here were built in the mid-1970's. Now that we've been bought out by the "Cheap Pricks" (think about that one for a second, too), the guys here are hoping we'll start seeing those newer (1997 build and up) out here. I doubt it.
Anyway, back to the thread...I agree wholeheartedly. I fail to see how the cop could have known something about the cyclist before hand. Maybe he was just having a bad day. I don't know. I've met people in all walks of life, in all fields, that were a rarity among us. They can be having a REAL lousy day, and yet, if you weren't part of their problems, but HAD to interact with them, they didn't take it out on you. I've found those people to be rare, few, and far between. It doesn't really matter what walk of life you have, it's up to you to treat others as you would have them treat you. I know, we're all human and prone to mistakes. Is that an excuse? No. But it's a flawed system, we need to live with it the best we can, and affect change in it to the best of our ability.
Be interesting to see if he's quietly returned to some out of the way duty after everything quiets down.
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