223 factory crimp die

[tri70]

I bought a factory crimp die to see if it would improve my groups a little. I can get decent groups 1 1/4 and may have 2 or 3 touching without factory crimp. Today I'm going to the range for lunch and see how the new loads work, 55 gr Sierra spbt with 24.5 gr H335 col 2.260.
My next accessory may be the biathalon stabilizer, rutro got some great groups with his.

-tri

[tri70]

The factory crimp die did not work well for me at all. I have been using a Hornady die that seems to work very well. I'll have to try the loads with my Savage bolt rifle but they did not group at all with the mini 14. It did help to run my bore snake before each 3 shot group of Hornady 55 gr sp and 2 groups of Sierra 55 sp bt, one with crimp and one without. The Hornady and Sierra 55 gr without crimp shot 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 groups, the crimped loads were all over the target.:blink:

Next to try the biathalon stabalizer!;)

-tri

[rutro]

Hey Tri70 this is like the same direction my mind has been going. I've been useing the factory crimp die myself for a while. There is a learning curve that goes with it for sure. The amount of crimp you put on a bullit has a big effect. Like all other Lee dies I read the instructions and did it. With the factory crimp it can take a little experimenting as to how heavy you go with it. A full crimp can literaly squash a ring around the bullit. I found this out by accident when I pulled a bullit and noticed it. Some bullits it didn't do it to. So now I play with it when I start on a new round or load. I am waiting on a batch of 55gr. Remington PSP's that should be here tomorrow. I also ordered a set of the Lee RGB dies in .223 because the seating die will put a roll crimp on the bullit. So I'll see which one does the best for me. Any input from you old reloaders would be highly prized by the way so don't be afraid to speak up. The Remington 55gr. PSP's I ordered have a canalure which is a new one for me also. I've been chaseing that dime size five shot group so long I decided to back off a little and work up a good plinking load. You can back off on the factory crimp die a little and those same loads might be tack drivers instead of all over paper.

You won't regret buying a Biathlon either. If you have a load that does fairly well target wise the Biathlon can let you see just how good it realy can shoot, just ask Steve4102. Even though he's shooting the Mini30 you can look at the Target Titles in his signature and see what it can do for ya if you take the time to dial it in.

Oh yeah, some of the other die makers have seating dies that crimp the bullit at the same time as seating, does your Hornady die do that? If I recall the Lee die says to screw it in until it touches the shell holder then 1/2 turn more for a full crimp. I started going 1/4 turn after it touched the shell holder and got a suitable crimp and some great groups from the Serria 50gr. Match hollowpoints that I was messing up to start with. So just a thought befor ya give up. Back it off a little and see what they do.........;)

[steve4102]

That's interesting. I use the LFCD for all my auto-loaders and a few of my bolt guns. How much crimp did you apply? It's been my experience that a slight crimp works much better than a heavy crimp.

Many of my rifles are unaffected by the LFCD and some show noticeable signs of improvement. I have not noticed a decrease in accuracy by using the LFCD, I think. I just picked up a Browning ShortTrac in 300WSM. So far I can only get groups in the 2 1/2- 3" range. Everything I have tried has been crimped with the LFCD. Maybe I need to work up some loads with and some loads without the crimp and see if that is my problem as well. I'll let you know what I find out.

I have the Biathlon Stabilizer on my Mini-30. I am convinced that it works. Since you already have a couple of good loads working well the BS just might tighten them up a bit. Finding the sweet spot can take some serious range time though. My last trip to the range I tested a couple of hunting loads. I started at the front sight and worked back 1 inch at a time. Shooting 5 shot groups with each bullet type. There was absolutely no change in groups size with any loads tested until I got close to the gas block. Once they started to tighten up I made adjustments of 1/4 inch each time until I was satisfied. Good luck, I hope it works well for you.

[tri70]

Thanks for the replies, rutro and steve, I think I may have over crimped, I'll back off like rutro suggested and see what will come of it. I'm going to have to check the Hornady die and see if it is roll crimp or a little different, my loads have been doing pretty well with it.

My wife says I can have something for my birthday wich is saturday and guess what I'm going to order! Time to find the web page now.;)

[steve4102]

http://www.henrich3.com/biathalon_stabilizer.htm

[tri70]

Could not get ahold of anyone at Henrich3, I was hoping to get it by this weekend but if I don't hear back I may look for another product.

[rutro]

Tri70 said;
Could not get ahold of anyone at Henrich3, I was hoping to get it by this weekend but if I don't hear back I may look for another product.

Rutro!!! I'll have to admit that Richard may not get back to ya right away. That's not his only calling in life. He also does other things, besides being a Range Officer in some of the ShootingUSA events I think he hunts a bit too. But he will get back to ya.

[rutro]

Hey Tri have you read the article on barrel tuneing? It made me really understand how and why the Biathlon works and how it does it so very well. It also got me to thinking (RUTRO!!!!) about the tuner on the new Mini Target gun. It would not be very hard at all to do the same thing with the standard mini or Ranch Rifle. Just a 6'' peice of heavy wall 1/2''i.d. ridged pipe would do it. Would not have to be pretty to see how it would work either. Three holes about 2'' from one end equaly spaced around the pipe tapped for set screws would hold it just like the one on the target gun. As long as the muzzle end was cut square and and dressed up with a file for a smooth flow of the propellant gas as the bullit exits the barrel it would serve the same function as the tuner on the heavy barrel Target gun. No telling what a man might do with some good hand loads and a little tinkering an tuneing....... dang if I hadn't allready started a project I would be on my way to Lowes right now..........;) Oh Well if this setup I already have does not bare fruit I know whats gona happen next.

[tri70]

I did read the article and yesterday I had a buddy here at work cut me a 2" pc of square aluminum and began to think about making something similar to the biathlon.;)

[tri70]

I just got off the phone with Henrich and he told me about the new style of biathlon, a stainless beed blasted model. I told him that sounded great for my stainless mini 14 and he still had some beed blasting to do on them but should be ready early next week. I'll send him the payment and by the time it arrives the new style biatlons should be ready to ship. The new ones are about 20 grams less than the others, I think he told me 77 grams on the new style.

-tri

[lobo creek]

Rutro, I've been looking for available pipe too. My mini is stainless and the availability of sizes would require boring of the pipe unless I decide to ride it on a couple of brass bushings bonded to the barrel. I could opt to use cold rolled carbon steel instead and use one already made to fit. Here is the list of cold rolled from Online Metals. http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=283&step=2 Check out the O.875" O.D. x 0.156" wall tubing. It has an inside diameter of 0.563". It's just about a perfect fit for the mini. Notice that The weight per foot is given on each item they sell. This one weighs 1.1966 pounds per linear foot. Multiplied by 16 gives 19.1456 oz. per foot or 1.595 oz. per inch. If it is too heavy, weight can always be pared off of it. http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=10617&step=4&showunits=inches

[lobo creek]

Just had a thought on the stainless. I could bond a one inch long brass bushing to the rear end of the tube sized to slip on the barrel and use a fixed bushing mounted to the barrel near the muzzle. Here is a stainless tube that might work for that. http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=12932&step=4&showunits=inches A six inch piece of this would weigh 7.84 oz.

[rutro]

Hey Tri there ya go an I'm getting a little jealous too. Stainless and bead blasted also is going to look good on a stainless barrel.

Lobo creek I've been looking at http://www.mcmaster.com/, and they have a lot of ways to go. I was thinking about just getting a stainless nipple and working from there. They have an 8'' 316 Stainless nipple sch.40 for $14.00. The i.d. is .622 so on my barrel which is like .560 o.d. there at the end the gap is less than 1/32'' between the barrel and the sleeve. I was not even thinking about trying to shim it. I guess it should be though. Wouldn't need much with the set screws at the back. I just looked at some more tubing and found some 4160 alloy with a .569i.d. and I don't think I'd even try to shim that, it would be a real tight fit especialy after the barrel got warmed up. That tubeing with the .563i.d. might be to close a fit especialy if you needed to move it while dialing it in.

[steve4102]

Hey Tri, How's it going with your LFCD. I found some interesting reading on the subject. Read DRHenley's post on the LFCD.

http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001394.html

[tri70]

I have not tried it again but that is a very good article to read. I have the strut and stabilizer in a position that is in tune with my current loads. I need to try some crimped loads with my Savage bolt gun would be a better comparison. Right now the loads are under 1" with the bolt gun so I wonder if the crimping would do me any better but I have read about people shooting 1/2 or 1/4" groups, something to shoot for.;)

-thanks for the link!

[Marlin 45 carbine]

good link Steve and it echos what I found, use a light crimp with the LFCD. one bullet maker says not use it with their slugs, can't recollect which maker.
I can add that I loaded some Mini-30 rounds using 4895, the start load - and it was a compressed load with a 150 gr. bullet. haven't got to the range to try them. interested in any info U can provide regards good loads for the M-30. and easy accuracy tips.

[timlt]

Hey guys, for those of you who have the Biatholon Stabilizer, I'm curious if you've seen this other device that he has? He calls it a "smallbore rifle vibration controller," and it's described here:

http://www.henrich3.com/smallbore_vib_cont.htm


Now I wonder if in theory, this thing could have a positive impact on the barrel harmonics of a Mini rifle? It's a stainless device that locks tightly to your barrel, adds some mass, is adjustable on the barrel (= "sliding barrel weight"?), absorbs vibration and recoil, and is apparently known for increasing accuracy. It even has auxiliary weights that can be added to "tune" its effect on your barrel's vibration and harmonics.

Given the characteristics of this thing, wouldn't this potentially be a great accuracy-enhancing add-on for the Mini? I can't see why not. To me, it seems like it might be every bit as effective as the stabilizer itself, they actually seem to be quite similar in their total effects.

Does anyone know anything about this device? Or, does anyone think it would be worth getting one of these and trying it? The only potential issue I can see is the factory barrel on a Mini-14 is .562 inches, and the device by default only fits on 0.75" to 1" OD barrels. But probably he could make a run of custom ones, if there were several folks willing to buy and plunk down a few bucks of "earnest money" to him so that he'd be willing to build them for us.

[steve4102]

one bullet maker says not use it with their slugs, can't recollect which maker.
I can add that I loaded some Mini-30 rounds using 4895, the start load - and it was a compressed load with a 150 gr. bullet. haven't got to the range to try them. interested in any info U can provide regards good loads for the M-30. and easy accuracy tips.

The bullet maker is Speer. They got into a ****ing match with Lee several years ago and now they claim that using the LFCD will decrease accuracy by 40%.

Which 4895, IMR or H? I have only tried H4895. I found it to be pretty accurate with 150gr bullets, but extremely slow. To slow for me to use as a hunting round. Hodgdon list 28gr as 2154fps, I never came close to that in my Mini-30. The most velocity my Mini will produce with H4895/150's is in the high 1800's.

What 150gr bullets are use using and what do you plan to do with them? By that I mean, are they for hunting or just having some fun? I have tried a ton of bullets and powder in my mini. Let me know what you are looking for and maybe I can help.

[rutro]

Timlt I field tested one when Richard sent me the Biathlon to test. He sent the Smallbore also just to see if it might work. The Smallbore was to heavy, it was enginered for the heavy bull barrels. I only tried it on the Mini14 and I wish I'd had time to put it on the 10/22 and dial it in. That's what it's designed to work with. The new biathlon like Tri70 just got is the thing for that Mini14 barrel.

[tri70]

The BS does not clamp the barrel tight in a metal to metal way, just clamps the dampening rubber material to the barrel. The weight is light at 77 grams but has good length of dampening the harmonics. I need to move it a couple more times to see if I really have "the spot". I also need to reload again with the LFCD and use lighter pressure and see what will happen. I used it on some Hornady 55 gr w/cannelure ring and heavy crimp, they did not group well at all.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

It is H4985 I use it in my '06 but thought I'd try it since the Lee data had it listed. the start load was nearly a caseful and a compressed load I think. I did load some Speer 150 SPBT with a light LFCD mjust to see how they shot, I probably wasted my dimes, but just a few of them. with the price increase of bullets I'm serously considering buying a mold and making some cast bullets for practice with light powder charges.
I have 680 which is all I've used previously in my M-30, I have loaded some rounds that did better than the Winchester or PMC softpoint ammo as far as accuracy, but I'm always open to suggestions. I hunt hogs and deer with my 30, but lately my deer hunting has been with my .50 cal muzzleloader and deer with my '06. M-30 is good for hogs, I used Speer 130 gr. slugs meant for pistols they stayed toghether i guess I haven't recovered a slug.

[steve4102]

with the price increase of bullets I'm serously considering buying a mold and making some cast bullets for practice with light powder charges.

I have 680 which is all I've used previously in my M-30, I have loaded some rounds that did better than the Winchester or PMC softpoint ammo as far as accuracy, but I'm always open to suggestions

I used Speer 130 gr. slugs meant for pistols they stayed toghether i guess I haven't recovered a slug.



I don't know this for a fact, but I have read that "lead" bullets can be a problem in auto-loaders. Something to do with "leading" in the gas ports.

680 is a great powder for the 7.62x39. Like many good powders by Winchester it is now discontinued. If your supply is running low, you may want to find a replacement. AA1680 is close to 680 and was designed for the 7.62x39. I have tried it with several bullets of all shapes and sizes. Although a lot of shooters have had good results with 1680, I just never could get acceptable accuracy. I have 3 powders that work very well with the heavier bullets, AA2015, H322 and VV130. If I had to pick one I would go with H322.


What 130gr Speer bullet are you using? I haven't tried any Speer's that were designed for pistols. I have a bunch of Sierra 135gr SSP (Single Shot Pistol) bullets that shoot very well and are excellent on game. The only problem with them is they are discontinued also.


For a 7.62x39 bullet to be affective on deer size game it needs to penetrate and expand at reduced velocities. That puts you in the 30-30 category or something like the Nosler Ballistic Tip. The Speer 130 or 150gr FN 30-30 bullet is an excellent choice if you can get acceptable accuracy. The Hornady 150gr RN 30-30 bullets works well also.

Of all the bullets I have tried in my Mini-30 the Sierra Pro Hunters are by far the most accurate. They are just a bit to hard for Hunting Whitetails with the velocities of the 7.62x39.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

My mistake it is actually Hornady 130 gr. softpoint SSP slugs I loaded. And I noticed upon checking the Natchez catalog that they are on 'closeout' so I'm gonna buy a few boxes to have. they did well on hogs, neck/chest shots produced drop downs or short runs and did much damamge. I usually try for neck shots at base of skull or torso entry (not much distance there on boar) but have taken chest shots on moveing game.
U are right cast slugs are dirty but considering the relative ease of cleaning the M-30 I'm seriously thinkng about a Lee 160 gr. mold and gas checks. when shooting cast bullets from what I've read if the barrell gets hot is when they foul the worst.
Is H322 a ball powder? seems I've seen it some '06 load data.

[steve4102]

H322 is a fine extruded powder.
http://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/extreme/page4.php

If you like the Hornady 130gr SSP slugs you should stock up now as they are also discontinued. I haven't been able to find the 130 SSP's for a long time. Are you sure the ones at Natchez are 130 SSP and not 130 SP?

[Marlin 45 carbine]

thanks for the link Steve, I knew 4189 was good powder but don't have any. I have used Varget but just '06 loads. so I'll have to get a lb. of 322. and U R correct, Hornady discontinued the SSP 130 slugs, glad I have some loaded up, they are good performers judging by the damage they did - I haven't recovered one yet all my shots were pass-thrus at fairly close range. Natchez had sold out of 'em - I have a 2006 catalog. guess that leaves Noslers 125 gr. seems maybe Speer makes a 130 gr. maybe Sierra. do you know of another slug at 130 or 135 gr? I shot paper with some 150's Sierra I think I have it written down in notes, they did well but uncertain about 'expansion' factor. but any hit on the CNS will knock 'em down anyway only a shot on moving game does the 'expansion' help as torso shots are needed.

[HighDesertWolf]

The factory crimp die did not work well for me at all. I have been using a Hornady die that seems to work very well. I'll have to try the loads with my Savage bolt rifle but they did not group at all with the mini 14. It did help to run my bore snake before each 3 shot group of Hornady 55 gr sp and 2 groups of Sierra 55 sp bt, one with crimp and one without. The Hornady and Sierra 55 gr without crimp shot 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 groups, the crimped loads were all over the target.:blink:

Next to try the biathalon stabalizer!;)

-tri
the factory crimp can help your accuracy but by just adding the crimp it isnt enough adding a factory crimp is like changing any component in your system. you might try a different primer or play with your COL by seating deaper or longer ya just cant expect a crimp to cure all your ailments.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

Would you mind giving a rundown on accuracy improvement tips that a fellow could do own his own? I have lightened the trigger and installed buffers front and rear, and roll my own loads (an improvement there but don't try any 303 slugs .311 dia, they don't do well at all). I haven't bedded the action yet and don't want anything on the barrel as I'm working on a bayonet lug. I have put a muzzle break on, lucky the O.D. is a slip fit for the loop of the bayonet I'm going to mount which is a Swiss SS one. I just need the handle lug mounted in the right place. It does OK but I don't use it past 100 yards. I have a small scope (tactical 1.5X4) on it. Mainly I use it hunting just for the fun of it and the utility of the cartridge it's great on hogs at inside 50 yards.

[tri70]

Marlin 45, have you looked thru the "Tips and Tricks" link at the top of the mini talk page? You can do the bedding and set the gas block screws at even torque and gapping.