View Full Version : Accuracy Rifle Systems vs Accuracy Systems Inc.
Is there a history here with these two companies?
How would you rate them?
Accuracy Rifle Systems web site sends "vibs" that concerns me...
Accuracy Systems Inc. web site is very well done and is very "clean" and "neat" All the pictures and articles are crystal clear and easy to follow and read...
I really like the "pillar post bedding" that they do.
I want to "accurize" my Mini 14 Ranch .223 w/synthetic stock BUT I don't really want to turn it into a 8-9 pound monster to carry around.
I can't speak to the past history, but I can tell you about RECENT history. When I was researching to have some Mini work done, I contacted both companies. ARS had their founder and chief smith die of a heart attack within the past couple years, and when I contacted their website, what I got was a reply from one of his friends, who said he was helping to keep the company going, and they would try to work with me. Also, the original owner's wife contacted me as well. On the one hand, I felt really badly for them, losing this guy to a heart attack, but at the same time, I was NOT very impressed with the professionalism of the company, having a buddy who works as a hospital administrator contacting me to say "We'll try to work you in when we can...." It didn't inspire a lot of confidence.
Now ASI, on the other hand, has been outstanding. Ultimately I had my accurization work done by Gundoc (www.greatwestgunsmithing.com), and he is who I'd recommend for such work, but I also think you wouldn't go wrong with ASI. They are VERY professional, they do more volume customization of Mini's then probably anyone else, and they build new custom ones from scratch as well. In my experience, they are very friendly and service oriented, as I bought from them a custom laminated stock and a tuneable gas block, both of which they answered a lot of questions about. Further, they are about the only place I know of that does Mini work that will actually test fire your rifle, and give you an accuracy guarantee on their work, for some of their higher end accurization jobs. That may be well worth it to some people, although I was quite satisfied with the work I had done by Gundoc, and I believe others are as well.
Overall if you want to keep your gun as a lightweight carbine, I'd say give Gundoc a look (because he uses methods of accurization that, unlike the bull barrels and heavy harmonic stabilizers used by ASI, will not add to the weight of your gun), but if you decide to go with ASI, they are very excellent as well.
Same thoughts here. You can't beat Gundocs trigger job. His bedding job was outsatnding. Cutting the barell, threading for the Smith Brake, his gas bushings, and improved rear sight were great as well. The mini 14 now shoots better than I can and it is still light, manueverable, and a joy to shoot! It is also very easy to dissasemble and clean. Much easier I think than with the studs. And you can't beat his price!
I can't speak to the past history, but I can tell you about RECENT history. When I was researching to have some Mini work done, I contacted both companies. ARS had their founder and chief smith die of a heart attack within the past couple years, and when I contacted their website, what I got was a reply from one of his friends, who said he was helping to keep the company going, and they would try to work with me. Also, the original owner's wife contacted me as well. On the one hand, I felt really badly for them, losing this guy to a heart attack, but at the same time, I was NOT very impressed with the professionalism of the company, having a buddy who works as a hospital administrator contacting me to say "We'll try to work you in when we can...." It didn't inspire a lot of confidence.
Now ASI, on the other hand, has been outstanding. Ultimately I had my accurization work done by Gundoc (www.greatwestgunsmithing.com), and he is who I'd recommend for such work, but I also think you wouldn't go wrong with ASI. They are VERY professional, they do more volume customization of Mini's then probably anyone else, and they build new custom ones from scratch as well. In my experience, they are very friendly and service oriented, as I bought from them a custom laminated stock and a tuneable gas block, both of which they answered a lot of questions about. Further, they are about the only place I know of that does Mini work that will actually test fire your rifle, and give you an accuracy guarantee on their work, for some of their higher end accurization jobs. That may be well worth it to some people, although I was quite satisfied with the work I had done by Gundoc, and I believe others are as well.
Overall if you want to keep your gun as a lightweight carbine, I'd say give Gundoc a look (because he uses methods of accurization that, unlike the bull barrels and heavy harmonic stabilizers used by ASI, will not add to the weight of your gun), but if you decide to go with ASI, they are very excellent as well.
I have requested a proposal from both the Gundoc and ASI. It appears that Clark is basically getting out of the Mini 14 business as they feel the gun is about to change significantly.
Sorry about the problems at ARS but can't afford to let "their problems" become "my problems".
Thanks for the enlightenment. BTW, I am looking at Gundoc real hard. LOL I believe that if he were to not only bed the action/stock but also pillar post it as does ASI then that would have great stabilization and appeal. Nice to be able to dissasemble and reassemble without changing zero if you know what I mean.
BTW, I would not mind a brake if it would "quieten" rather make the sound louder. I can't afford to loose more hearing.
What brake is both quiter and tuneable? You mentioned the Smith break...
BTW, I would not mind a brake if it would "quieten" rather make the sound louder. I can't afford to loose more hearing.
What brake is both quiter and tuneable? You mentioned the Smith break...
Don't know of a "tuneable" brake that works on the Mini. There are tuneable devices, such as the Biathlon device, you can search for that term in some recent threads that will give you links to the webiste. As for a brake that's not as loud, recently Gundoc mentioned the Levang compensator, put out (I think) by DMPS, it directs the sounds downrange and away from you. Search for both these devices and you can learn more about them. Gundoc could mount the Levang for you on a threaded barrel; the Biathlon you could mount yourself.
texastom
12-20-2006, 22:38
Levang Linear Comp is said to reduce noise since it directs the gases straight down range. Here is link to one source for it and I think ASI sells/installs them as well. Warlock has one (or similar) on his and I have seen others on the board. A quick search will turn up the others.
http://www.sogarmory.com/Products.aspx?catid=56
steve4102
12-21-2006, 15:59
Don't know of a "tuneable" brake that works on the Mini. .
I'm not sure what you mean here? Would this be consisdered a "Tunable Brake"?
*NEW- Tuneable Boss System™
Maximize Your Factory Barrels Accuracy
Ok this is a different technology than the ASI barrel tensioned stabilizer package at the top of the page. This is basically an adjustable barrel weight that when tuned to the right position will intersect the barrels harmonic sweet spot stabilizing the barrel at the critical time when the bullet leaves the barrel. Then ports have been added for recoil and muzzle rise reduction to the Boss. This package takes patients compared to the Barrel tensioning stabilizer above because you will need to shoot and tune shoot and tune to find that sweet spot but it does work with the proper amount of time invested in the product.
http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/img/new%21red.GIF
http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/img/Boss-stainless-rifle.jpg
http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/img/Adjustable-boss-seven.jpg
Mini 14 or 30 rifle with Boss installed
Stainless or Black
Tunable with positive click for each setting
Built in muzzle brake and compensator
Price Installed $ 239.95 without front sight
Price to move and relocate front sight further back on barrel - Add $40.00
http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/img/Adjustable-boss-three.jpg
Pictured here with sight moved back 2" and tuneable gas block installed.
The perfect combination!
http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/img/new%21red.GIF
http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/img/Adjustable-boss-five.jpg
http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/img/Adjustable-boss-three.jpg
I'm not sure what you mean here? Would this be consisdered a "Tunable Brake"?
Yeah this is technically a brake that is tuneable, and I'm aware of it as Ive linked to it and pointed folks to this before myself as a type of solution. But my understanding is that this has to be installed by ASI, and I thought he wanted a simple, traditional compensator/brake that you could just install yourself, or screw onto a threaded barrel. Not one where you'd have to send your whole rifle off to ASI and get the thing mounted. You cannot get this solution for under $300, and that's not counting all the shipping costs. But I agree this would be a nice solution, if folks want to fork over the cash for it. I've considered it myself!
steve4102
12-21-2006, 16:18
What are your thoughts on this one. I'm not to crazy about the way it's installed.
http://www.homestead.com/accuracyriflesystems3/tuneablebrakeflyercomplete.pdf
What are your thoughts on this one. I'm not to crazy about the way it's installed.
http://www.homestead.com/accuracyriflesystems3/tuneablebrakeflyercomplete.pdf
This may indeed be an effective device, but as mentioned above in the thread, I just have no confidence at all in ANYTHING ARS is offering these days. Since the guy who was the chief innovator there has passed away, it's not clear to me what their future is, or how well they'll be able to support you with issues or questions. So personally I'm not considering any of their products.
It appears to me that the Levang Linear Comp coupled with the barrel stabilizer from ASI shows potential. I don't know how "tuneable" the Levang comp is. Having said all of that, if I am going to go to that expense I might as well go for a premium barrel of a larger than stock diameter. The Gundoc has been very responsive to my enquiries.
I am trying to avoid the excessive noise that apparently is generated by the "BOSS" system but at the same time I am trying to keep the weight to an absolute minimum.
I share your opinion. Pitty.
dmlewis3
12-23-2006, 11:09
I can't speak to the past history, but I can tell you about RECENT history. When I was researching to have some Mini work done, I contacted both companies. ARS had their founder and chief smith die of a heart attack within the past couple years, and when I contacted their website, what I got was a reply from one of his friends, who said he was helping to keep the company going, and they would try to work with me. Also, the original owner's wife contacted me as well. On the one hand, I felt really badly for them, losing this guy to a heart attack, but at the same time, I was NOT very impressed with the professionalism of the company, having a buddy who works as a hospital administrator contacting me to say "We'll try to work you in when we can...." It didn't inspire a lot of confidence.
Now ASI, on the other hand, has been outstanding. Ultimately I had my accurization work done by Gundoc (www.greatwestgunsmithing.com), and he is who I'd recommend for such work, but I also think you wouldn't go wrong with ASI. They are VERY professional, they do more volume customization of Mini's then probably anyone else, and they build new custom ones from scratch as well. In my experience, they are very friendly and service oriented, as I bought from them a custom laminated stock and a tuneable gas block, both of which they answered a lot of questions about. Further, they are about the only place I know of that does Mini work that will actually test fire your rifle, and give you an accuracy guarantee on their work, for some of their higher end accurization jobs. That may be well worth it to some people, although I was quite satisfied with the work I had done by Gundoc, and I believe others are as well.
Overall if you want to keep your gun as a lightweight carbine, I'd say give Gundoc a look (because he uses methods of accurization that, unlike the bull barrels and heavy harmonic stabilizers used by ASI, will not add to the weight of your gun), but if you decide to go with ASI, they are very excellent as well.
************************************************** **
Not to dispute that ARS has lost their key man (Tim was more than a great gunsmith -- he held patents for trigger and ammunition designs,and his death occurred while saving a fellow-hunter's life) and what remains of the firm can only rework 2-3 rifles per week at best instead of the 35-50 per week he could do. But it sticks in my craw to hear the other firms called "professional." They may well be competent gunsmiths, but ARS had to threaten legal action more than once when they claimed "Oh, yeah, we work together, we're branches of the same outfit, ARS is our subsidiary." (I got those responses over the phone before the lawyer sent the letters.)
ARS refitted over 25,000 mini-14's, made a bunch of Special Forces guys more confident, got foreign orders he had to clear through the State Department, and spawned a sounds-like clone. Everyone trying to help out his widow is being painfully honest -- they can't get that quality of work done as quickly as Tim did. But calling the clone "more professional" on the basis of a slick website would be a triumph of image over substance.
magnomark
12-23-2006, 12:14
:) I had a custom mini built from ASI back in sept.of this year.Paid a good sum of money for it,and am very happy with the results.I tried to order one from ARS because I figured that a Texas firm could make one possibly better than an east coast firm-but was informed @ the time that the texas firm was not filling orders-from the management.At that time I decided to go with the next best option and did.Still took 12 weeks to receive the finished unit.But like I said-I'm very happy with the results.
Maybe ARS should hang a sign in the window-OPEN FOR BUSINESS!;)
DMLewis, sorry if that offended, I did not intend anything I said to be a putdown to ARS. As I mentioned above, I was not able to comment on the past history of the company, only the RECENT history that I personally experienced when I contacted them about getting some work done. From what I've heard, ARS did indeed do great work when their main guy ("Tim") was alive, so your report seems consistent with that. I was just advising a fellow Mini owner that, at present, it seemed when I contacted them that they were not quite recovered from the loss of Tim yet, they're not quite ramped up and ready to do business for customers as the other places are. It took them a couple of weeks to even reply to my initial contact, and when they did, I got a mixture of rather odd messages such as "I'm a hospital administrator who was a friend of the owner who died, and I can help you get your gun worked on. It might take us awhile, etc...."
Well my reaction to that was, I felt truly sorry for the family and friends at their loss, and I appreciated the friends trying to help, but still I was not prepared to send my gun into such an uncertain situation, where it seemed like they were not really set up to do business at the moment, and I couldn't even talk to the person who would work on my gun (because they didn't know who that would be yet). Without any insult to this company, I did feel it was fair and important to pass along this information to a current Mini owner trying to make up their mind which company to send their rifle to. As for what company is a clone or imitator of another, again I have no idea of the past history, I only know that the other companies I mentioned I have done business with recently, and they have both been courteous, professional, and did great quality work for me. And I stand behind recommending both ASI, and Gundoc, as great places to get work done on a Mini-14. That is no insult to ARS; in fact, I hope that ARS is able to recover its footing, find someone who can do the great kind of work Tim was doing, and once again start offering great service and innovation to Mini-14 owners that it sounds like they were previously providing.
steve4102
12-23-2006, 19:22
************************************************** **
Not to dispute that ARS has lost their key man (Tim was more than a great gunsmith -- he held patents for trigger and ammunition designs,and his death occurred while saving a fellow-hunter's life) and what remains of the firm can only rework 2-3 rifles per week at best instead of the 35-50 per week he could do. But it sticks in my craw to hear the other firms called "professional." They may well be competent gunsmiths, but ARS had to threaten legal action more than once when they claimed "Oh, yeah, we work together, we're branches of the same outfit, ARS is our subsidiary." (I got those responses over the phone before the lawyer sent the letters.)
ARS refitted over 25,000 mini-14's, made a bunch of Special Forces guys more confident, got foreign orders he had to clear through the State Department, and spawned a sounds-like clone. Everyone trying to help out his widow is being painfully honest -- they can't get that quality of work done as quickly as Tim did. But calling the clone "more professional" on the basis of a slick website would be a triumph of image over substance.
I was all set to send my Mini-30 to ARS just before Tim passed away. After his death I was told that things would be on hold for awhile. dmlewis, are you saying that ARS is up and running again only a bit slower?
I see that this is was your first post. Welcome, maybe you could hang out here and keep us up to snuff on what's going on with the Mini accurizing business.
I started the inquiry about "history" and make no apologies for that. History is just that, history. We must live with that and move on. I am sorry for your loss. Your loss is also our loss but such is life and again, we must move on. Can't change history...
I am still trying to determine the best and most reasonable and sure way of getting what I want out of my mini. No matter what, I will continue in that direction and I can only hope to be successful.
I like the "guarantee" from ASI but will have to determine the "weight" of this potential package before making the investment and changes to my mini.
The Gundoc has a wonderful reputation and is not out of the running in my decision making process. I still hope for soon delivery of the Acrustrut and blued is fine with me. Matches the synthetic stock.
If ARS wishes to be a "player" in the mini game today, you will need to step up and shore up the confidence that apparently was once justified. Today and tomorrow are all important to us all...
Merry Christmas and the very best of luck...
dmlewis3
12-27-2006, 08:48
Hogwild wrote:
I started the inquiry about "history" and make no apologies for that. History is just that, history. We must live with that and move on. I am sorry for your loss. Your loss is also our loss but such is life and again, we must move on. Can't change history...
I am still trying to determine the best and most reasonable and sure way of getting what I want out of my mini. No matter what, I will continue in that direction and I can only hope to be successful.
I like the "guarantee" from ASI but will have to determine the "weight" of this potential package before making the investment and changes to my mini.
The Gundoc has a wonderful reputation and is not out of the running in my decision making process. I still hope for soon delivery of the Acrustrut and blued is fine with me. Matches the synthetic stock.
If ARS wishes to be a "player" in the mini game today, you will need to step up and shore up the confidence that apparently was once justified. Today and tomorrow are all important to us all...
Merry Christmas and the very best of luck...
************************************************** ***
Hogwild, I agree with you that ARS isn't what it used to be. More than that, the current activity in the oil fields makes it unlikely that they'll find someone to learn the craft. My son briefly considered that path when he got his engineering degree, but the money lay elsewhere.
ARS currently specializes in triggers, and they may not wish to be a "player" in the mini market anymore. I hear that Ruger is planning changes in the mini-14, and have no idea whether they will be changes for the better. Meanwhile the widow is working in a speedy lube place and I'm selling take-off barrels on eBay.
ASI used to be in CO, now they're in SC, so we may be talking about different owners. If so, I wish them all the best. I've heard positive things about Gundoc, and about Connecticut Precision Chambering, and there was another firm in Southern Louisiana that did terrific work before they flooded out in '05 -- maybe they've taken their human capital and rebuilt.
It's true, we can't change history, but we can handle our piece of history responsibly. Thank you for letting me defend my brother's reputation.
David Lewis
************************************************** ***
Hogwild, I agree with you that ARS isn't what it used to be. More than that, the current activity in the oil fields makes it unlikely that they'll find someone to learn the craft. My son briefly considered that path when he got his engineering degree, but the money lay elsewhere.
ARS currently specializes in triggers, and they may not wish to be a "player" in the mini market anymore. I hear that Ruger is planning changes in the mini-14, and have no idea whether they will be changes for the better. Meanwhile the widow is working in a speedy lube place and I'm selling take-off barrels on eBay.
ASI used to be in CO, now they're in SC, so we may be talking about different owners. If so, I wish them all the best. I've heard positive things about Gundoc, and about Connecticut Precision Chambering, and there was another firm in Southern Louisiana that did terrific work before they flooded out in '05 -- maybe they've taken their human capital and rebuilt.
It's true, we can't change history, but we can handle our piece of history responsibly. Thank you for letting me defend my brother's reputation.
David Lewis
David, thank you for bringing that information to the forum, and I hope you will stay around and get involved here. It would be great to have you as a contributor. I don't think anyone here, myself included, considered anything said in this thread as an attack on your brother's reputation, as the only item mentioned about ARS was its ability to provide accurization service on Mini's SINCE your brother's tragic death.
Whether you join us or not, I am most sorry for your loss, and hope that in spite of that you will have a wonderful new year and success in whatever you do.
I've got 2 Gundoc Mini's (a 580 and the older 182). I also had a Mini-30 done by ASI a couple of years ago - you can probably still find pics on the gallery of the ASI. $ forced the sale of the ASI at a cut rate - I totally regret selling the ASI, but I do have some insight on a choice between ASI and Gundoc. ASI will make you an expensive, heavy, accurate Mini. For less than half the price, Gundoc will customize you a great practical shooter. If $ was no object, I would consider ASI again for a target rifle. Carl is a great guy, and the work was absolutely top notch. If you want to punch 1" groups @ 100 or ring gongs, the ASI is great. The caliber conversions he offers for the Mini-30 are very temping to me (if I only had the $!). My best advice is this: if you want a significantly improved "custom" Mini-14 that will remain light and handy in the original spirit of old Bill Ruger, well, Gundoc would be my choice. Hope that helps.
5L
5Legion, I couldn't agree with you more. Good summary!
This IS the tunable brake that ASI is offering. Checking my 186- series Mini, it appears that if I were to take out the pin and remove the front sight, the .560" brake they offer would fit fine. I actually did buy one of these (from Brownells) for one of my re-barrelled Mausers. It's a serious hunk of metal, and quality looks excellent. However, installation and testing are a ways down the road yet.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1540
Th BOSS brake has been around for a long time now. Most of the guys that I know that tried them had two results.
Nice improvment in accuracy but not the panacea.
EXTREME increase in noise. Recommend use of ear protection even if you are hunting. Go to the range when no one else is there...
steve4102
01-12-2007, 15:43
EXTREME increase in noise. Recommend use of ear protection even if you are hunting. Go to the range when no one else is there...
Yes and No. Browning and Winchester rifles equiped with the BOSS come with both the ported BOSS (loud) and the BOSS CR. The BOSS CR has no holes and is no louder than a standard barrel. If you have a Browning or Winchester BOSS equiped rifle and did not get the CR, give them a call they will send it out to you.
I received my accurized mini-14 handbuilt by Carl Emite of Accuracy Systems, Inc. about ten days or so ago. It is simply excellent! He is a wonderful gunsmith and ASI is a first-rate operation. During my experience with ASI, I was very impressed with the informative and cordial way I was treated. Any question I had, no matter how dumb, was answered with patience and understanding. I never felt any ASI person was talking "down" to me. The rifle itself is fabulous. I could not be more happier with the results. For those posters here who talk about doing your accurizing on the cheap, remember that in life amost all of the time you get what you pay for. By that I mean, if you want the best, with regard to an mini-14, than you should be willing to pay for the best gunsmithing service available---and that is with ASI.
Fortunately I am not married and I spend my money the way I want! I plan on giving ASI more business in the near future. I very strongly recommend ASI to all of you. I was in the Marine Corps from 1965 to 1971, shot expert with the M-14 at Edson Range in 1965, and I am very thrilled at having my new mini-14. It brings back memories.
Congrats Tex on the ASI mini! I wish I had the money for one of their guns, I'd love a 6 mm PPC. Have you had a chance to shoot it, any targets to post?
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