View Full Version : The draft and draft dodgers.
This is not a mindless Clinton versus Bush thread so do not make into one.
I have been thinking about the draft and what is the proper treatment of draft dodgers.
I have always harbored ill will toward found draft dodgers. This was one of a long list of problems I had with Clinton.
But I have been reasessing my opinion on this.
The draft is slavery.Forced military service is a form of slavery that goes far back in history.
I am vehemently opposed to slavery! So why,if we are opposed to slavery,should we think ill of draft dodgers?
I believe I have been wrong about this for some time.
DaveyDug
10-23-2006, 04:12
I have mixed feelings on this subject. I, too, am against conscription and slavery of any kind. I always looked down on draft dodgers as being cowards or pacifists, but in recent years my opinion has changed as well. I would have a very hard time if I was drafted to fight in a war that I didn't believe I had any business fighting. I suppose if I was strongly enough opposed to the war, I might consider evading the draft.
Boogyman
10-23-2006, 11:32
Davey, I hear ya, it's a bit complex.
When I was drafted, most of my friends tried to talk me into going to Canada. We were politically and morally opposed to the VN war. My Dad said he'd disown me if I dodged. In the end, I felt it was my obligation to my country to serve.
I knew some who did go to Canada though, mostly on principle. When Carter gave them amnesty, I was glad to welcome them home. They stood by their principles, and I still feel that at least the ones I knew weren't cowards.
What really burns me is those that avoided the draft but supported the war, and still support war, as long as they don't have to fight in it. That's what I call cowardice. You know who I'm talking about, the Chickenhawks.
Re-instate the draft now? If we truly need more troops to actually fight terrorism or defend our country I have no problem with it. But to draft young people to die for political reasons was wrong back then, and it still is.
But I'd still go. Think that's weird? I guess Id rather get killed than live with the feeling that I let my country down somehow... :usa:
bubbagump
10-23-2006, 14:18
I didn't have to worry about the draft. I think that dodging the draft is just wrong. It doesn't matter if they went to Canada or got out of the draft because they were rich. A draft dodger should NOT be allowed to be the commander in chief of the armed services. Even though I am disabled, I would fight for my country in a heart beat. I have fought in Irag back in 91 and would gladly go back. Boog, I hear alot of fellow vets say that they would serve again.
A friend of mine, flunked out of college in 1970 & went to Canada to avoid the draft; but after much thought, returned to the states to fulfill his military obligation.
He entered the service as a conscientious objector, served as a medic, risked his life to save others & lost part of one leg in the process; AND was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.
He was against the war, had to be talked into going to Washington, D.C. to receive the award, refused to get a haircut & shave his beard, & consequently was not allowed to wear his uniform when being presented the award because of his hair.
I won't go into all the details, but due to his experiences in Viet Nam, & the disgraceful way he was treated by many, upon returning home, he eventually took his own life.
Kenny was a hero! and my friend!
http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=40873
http://ameddregiment.amedd.army.mil/bios/kays.htm
:(
I can respect someone who sticks by their principles, it's just hard for me to tell them from the people with no principles that simply ran away.
Holliday
10-23-2006, 19:23
This is not a mindless Clinton versus Bush thread so do not make into one.
I have been thinking about the draft and what is the proper treatment of draft dodgers.
I have always harbored ill will toward found draft dodgers. This was one of a long list of problems I had with Clinton.
But I have been reasessing my opinion on this.
The draft is slavery.Forced military service is a form of slavery that goes far back in history.
I am vehemently opposed to slavery! So why,if we are opposed to slavery,should we think ill of draft dodgers?
I believe I have been wrong about this for some time.
Draft= Slavery:wacko:. how about, its an obligation.
Boogyman
10-24-2006, 00:56
A friend of mine, flunked out of college in 1970 & went to Canada to avoid the draft; but after much thought, returned to the states to fulfill his military obligation.
He entered the service as a conscientious objector, served as a medic, risked his life to save others & lost part of one leg in the process; AND was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.
He was against the war, had to be talked into going to Washington, D.C. to receive the award, refused to get a haircut & shave his beard, & consequently was not allowed to wear his uniform when being presented the award because of his hair.
I won't go into all the details, but due to his experiences in Viet Nam, & the disgraceful way he was treated by many, upon returning home, he eventually took his own life.
Kenny was a hero! and my friend!
Sticks... your post brought tears to me.
I don't know why we were treated so differently than veterans from other wars. I have my theories, but in the end I still don't have any answers.
All I can say is that I'll never forget the guys I fought with. Some of them enlisted, some of them were drafted. When the sh1t hit, we were all the same.
The bravest, toughest man I've ever known was a draftee, I'll respect his privacy here and call him Jimmy G.... He had a real bad stutter, he was shy around girls, wore glasses, and was skinny as a rail. He was my buddy in VN, because when I arrived as a FNG nobody else in my new unit wanted to pair up with me.
Once when we hit contact on patrol, we both dived behind this big, rotten log. I could feel bullets hitting the log, and all I could think of was what if they came all the way through... when I got my face up out of the dirt I looked over at Jimmy...
He had his M16 up on the log, aiming, squeezing off, shifting aim, squeezing off, like he was shooting pop-ups. There was a nick out of his ear from a bullet, and blood all down his neck, but he had no idea. He just kept shooting like we were taught in AIT.
Afterwards we found over 20 dead VC reported body count, most in Jimmy's field of fire. He wasn't much on confirmed kills though, never tried to claim any.
You know what he told me later? He said that he couldn't stand to see people suffer, so he always took careful aim so he wouldn't wound anybody. He wanted to make sure he made clean kills, he felt sorry for anyone that was in pain. It was the least he could do for them.
He was serious.
I remember thinking that I hoped he never felt sorry for me like that.
I lost touch with Jimmy when I was medevaced. I still don't know if he made it home or not.
Godammit.
Boogyman
10-24-2006, 01:02
Sorry for the above post, didn't mean to get off-topic, or tell war stories.
But I needed to say it, and I ain't deleting it.
Boog, I hear alot of fellow vets say that they would serve again.
Yer damn straight, Brotherman. In a heartbeat.
Isn't there a website with all the names on it? If you even want to know...
Thanks for your service, Boogyman. Shameful conduct to come home to...
Boogyman
10-24-2006, 10:18
Isn't there a website with all the names on it? If you even want to know...
Thanks for your service, Boogyman. Shameful conduct to come home to...
I've been to several VN vet "buddy search" boards but never saw his name. It's probably because he never registered anywhere, that would be just like him... <_< At least he's not on any casualty lists that I've seen. At this point I'd rather just leave it at that. :)
Thanks, Mark. ;)
I know it will never happen, but I'd like to see:
1) A Draft allowed only in time of Declared War (Congress wants a Draft, they have to actually issue a Declaration of War).
2) No criminal or civil penalties for refusing the Draft, except the loss of the right to vote or hold office. You don't want to fight for the country (for whatever reason) you get no say in how it's run.
Man, that would take the wind out of the sails of all the usual draft protesters.
My question is "why do some of the DDs get so damn gung ho as they get older ?"
Gung Ho about what? Maybe they trying to compensate for something.
Yea, compensate by sending my kid over.
Dutch Nick
10-27-2006, 17:04
From July 31, 1941 to February 15, 1970... General Hershey was THE MAN at Selective Service System.
In an interview with ABC News in 1966... Hershey was asked if the draft was "fair". Hershey paused a moment and answered with a question... "Lots of folks think we ought to have a highly paid, volunteer Army. Let me ask you... do you think it's "fair" to pay someone else to fight and possibly die for you?"
Very interesting question.
Draft= Slavery:wacko:. how about, its an obligation.
You arent serious right?Forceing someone against their will to join the military is an obligation in your mind?
Dutch Nick
10-27-2006, 20:20
I don't understand your question... sorry.
You arent serious right?Forceing someone against their will to join the military is an obligation in your mind?
It should be an obligation accompanying citizenship. Declared Wars only. I favor the Swiss model...everyone goes through basic and into an inactive reserve, with semi-annual drills to test proficiencies. Great resource for disasters, insurrection, invasion...
Boogyman
10-27-2006, 21:41
It should be an obligation accompanying citizenship. Declared Wars only. I favor the Swiss model...everyone goes through basic and into an inactive reserve, with semi-annual drills to test proficiencies. Great resource for disasters, insurrection, invasion...
Is that how this Swiss do it? That works...
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe in Sweden every able-bodied citizen serves a mandatory two-year military service, and afterwards remains on call for duty in case of a national defense emergency. They keep their weapon and an issue of ammo for life.
Did Josh really say "You arent serious right?Forceing someone against their will to join the military is an obligation in your mind?" He's really quite clueless.
As one who was "forced against my will" to fight in a war I didn't believe in, yes. I do consider it an obligation, and I'd do it again. I guess some people just don't get it.
I don't remember exactly what they have to do post-training. They did have to account for their ammo and weapon, and did get range time. Sounds like the whole country might fit the Jeff Cooper quote "A proper pacifist fights for the right to be peaceful."
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