North Korea Nuke Test? [Archive]

Olds

10-10-2006, 04:05

IMO

If we look back, since the invasion of Iraq (a member of the axis of evil) both North Korea and Iran (the other two members of the axis of evil) are now more dangerous.

Bush's strategy for reducing the international nuclear threat might have actually helped to increase it. The invasion of Iraq has stiffened the resolve of Iran and North Korea to better arm themselves against what they believe is a belligerent United States bent on toppling their regimes as well.

Let's face it, if you were labled by the Prez of the good ole USA as one of the axis of evil what would you be doing right about now?

rick12337

10-10-2006, 07:08

anyne who earned such status would in commen sense better arm themseles work towards better weapons and technology sounds like a nightmare in progress thats far from over even after bush leaves office the wheels are already turning and i dont see how it posible to slow it down

vindex

10-10-2006, 07:52

what really gets me is that north korea antagonizes like this to get attention, and then makes nonsensical claims about feeling threatened by the US, as an explanation of their pursuit of such weapons. and here's the kicker.....the media buys into it. i felt like puking the other night when i was watching CNN, and listening to some reporter go on about how NK feels it's been victimized by the US, and has to respond to our threats by showing it can defend itself, thus legitimizing their pursuit of nuclear weapons. have any of these people paid any attention at all to their kim jong il's rhetoric throughout his political career? he's kept his nation starving and impoverished in his efforts to keep the north militarized, and his human rights track record is abysmal as he keeps his people on lockdown in order to preserve his glorious communist state.

president bush is a human...nothing more or less. he's made plenty of mistakes..some big ones. but he is not the cause of all the world's problems, and it's getting very tiresome hearing that he is. president bush has become the world's patsy because he makes himself an easy target. what's worse, is that our beloved United States, in general, have been blamed for the world's problems in kind, and that such blame is often repeated and championed by our news media, and even our own politicians....TRIPE! utter bulls**t!

the irony is, we'll be seen as the cause for the world's woes, often being criticized for being TOO involved, but the moment something like this north korea nonsense comes up, the media and the international community starts going on about how the US and our president 'NEED' to do this or that.

Boogyman

10-10-2006, 09:34

president bush is a human...nothing more or less. he's made plenty of mistakes..some big ones. but he is not the cause of all the world's problems, and it's getting very tiresome hearing that he is. president bush has become the world's patsy because he makes himself an easy target. what's worse, is that our beloved United States, in general, have been blamed for the world's problems in kind, and that such blame is often repeated and championed by our news media, and even our own politicians....TRIPE! utter bulls**t!
"He's only human"

"He's being victimized"

"It's all the media's fault."

This is a classic example of a die-hard Bush supporter in denial. <_<

Bush is not the cause of all the world's problems, but he & his cronies have done more damage than good. And they certainly are the cause of most of the problems we are facing in our own country.
i felt like puking the other night when i was watching CNN

it's getting very tiresome hearing that
I bet it is. The truth hurts, don't it? :o

You know what really gets me is how stubborn some people can be when it comes to admitting they were wrong, even in the face of overwhelming reality. :rolleyes:

vindex

10-10-2006, 10:53

"He's being victimized"

i never stated that bush was being victimized. please don't misquote me. i stated that north koreans claim they have been victimized, which is laughable, unless they are referring to the treatment by their leader.

"It's all the media's fault."

this is another misrepresentation of what i said. in a nutshell, i said that the news media has jumped on the international bandwagon of blaming pretty much all the world's ills on the president, and what is much worse, blaming these ills on the US in general. the US is not the cause of the every third-world nation's problems, and to paint this sort of picture journalistically is juvenile and un-american, which is of great concern when we're talking about american journalists and reporters.

This is a classic example of a die-hard Bush supporter in denial. <_<

i did not vote for george bush.

Bush is not the cause of all the world's problems, but he & his cronies have done more damage than good. And they certainly are the cause of most of the problems we are facing in our own country.

bush and his administration have certainly made some grave mistakes, and continue to do so. i already stated this. to assert that he and his are the cause of most of OUR problems shows that you are wildly uniformed as to the nature of politics in this country. OUR problems have been a long time in the making. the bush administration has certainly made a number of pre-existing problems worse, but they don't own them. OUR problem is a corrupt and static two party system that disregards the will of the people. the executive branch is only a part of this.

I bet it is. The truth hurts, don't it? :o

i've already commented on your 'truth', and if you're interested, would be willing to continue the discussion, and talk more about how the genesis of many of our problems reaches back well into the last century.

You know what really gets me is how stubborn some people can be when it comes to admitting they were wrong, even in the face of overwhelming reality. :rolleyes:

again, i didn not vote for president bush, and i do not know him, so i have no investment in his presidency that would compel me to defend him or apologise for his mistakes. my gripe is that the president, and america at large have become the scapegoat or excuse of choice when nations have to make excuses for their bad behaviour and policy, or are suffering the consequences of them. it's a tired argument.

Bill

10-10-2006, 16:40

Warning for everyone: Don't take this thread off tangent. Arguing FOR or AGAINST Bush's policies with regard to Korea or nukes in general is OK, but if you simply make it a PRO/CON mud sling, I'll nuke posts and give warnings/bannings.

azroaddust

10-10-2006, 19:05

I went to this thread to see comments about the "alleged" Nuke test in North Korea. Instead I see the usual B.S, trying to politicize even this! And people wonder what I use the IGNORE option! ENOUGH ALREADY!!!
That is also why I have been avoiding this forum, but the "headline" caught my eye.

Back to the MAIN SUBJECT:

Did they really blow a Nuke? If so, later analysis of seismographic data readings and other means of mointoring suggest it may have been +/- ONE (1) Kiloton. Their intended yield was for a 4 kt device. By comparison, I believe the Hiroshima bomb was 12 kt and a "firecracker" by todays standards.

Even if it is confirmed it was a nuke, which I agree it probably was, it does appear to be a dud. This does not cause me any less concern, I just find it interesting, as do I find it interesting that no radiation has been detected yet.

The alleged "2nd test" today is pretty much confirmed to have been 4.5 earthquake off the coast of Japan.

Anyone here play poker?

vindex

10-10-2006, 19:26

I went to this thread to see comments about the "alleged" Nuke test in North Korea. Instead I see the usual B.S, trying to politicize even this! And people wonder what I use the IGNORE option! ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

it IS the "political chit-chat" sub-forum, and the test obviously has political implications, which is why it's a matter of discussion.

plinky

10-10-2006, 20:08

its gonna get ugly

You kiwis are as safe as you could be (under the given circumstances...:rolleyes: ). No one`s gonna nuke NZ.:D

moon31

10-10-2006, 20:13

it is a bad news for japan and usa

plinky

10-10-2006, 20:24

Kim Jong Il is a clown. .. But a clown with a nuke...God help us...
And the ragheads are about to become a "nuclear power" too....

plinky

10-10-2006, 20:25

This is some scary sh!t. Really.

plinky

10-10-2006, 20:26

A lot scarier than the Russkies.

vindex

10-10-2006, 20:39

i see north korea as the fredo corleone of the asian communist bloc. it's part of the family, and china goes to bat for it, but if kim jong starts jeopardizing the family business, it's lights out. kim jong il is a silly lunatic, and methinks he doesn't have too many more passes in china's book.

plinky

10-10-2006, 21:50

i see north korea as the fredo corleone of the asian communist bloc.. I like that comparsion...but a Corleone is still a Corleone...

azroaddust

10-10-2006, 22:51

it IS the "political chit-chat" sub-forum, and the test obviously has political implications, which is why it's a matter of discussion.

You of course are correct. However, shifting blame to any person, party or system within the U.S. is not what this particular subject was about, or so I thought. Obviously I thought wrong.

It is that sort of "politicizing" to which I refer. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you are a "new kid on the block", but when you start highlighting my statements by making them BOLD when copying them, that is in effect yelling at me. I don't put up with yelling at one another either. I won't "yell" at you so I respectfully request that you don't do it to me or other members of this forum regardless of your own personal beliefs.

If one will go back to reading the forums from a couple of years ago they will see that this used to be a "gentlemen's" (or "gentlewomen's", whichever the case would be) platform for discussion(s) until Bill allowed it to be hijacked by some very loud noisemakers. Yes , obviously there were disagreements back then too, but except for a very few childlish outbursts, most had substance, validity, and were presented in a polite manner.

It truly is a shame that civility no longer always prevaials.

With that said, Welcome aboard!

Holliday

10-10-2006, 23:26

Killer@nz

10-11-2006, 00:21

You kiwis are as safe as you could be (under the given circumstances...:rolleyes: ). No one`s gonna nuke NZ.:D
Yeah but it gonna get awfully lonely if we are the only ones left ;)

Olds

10-11-2006, 03:28

what really gets me is that north korea antagonizes like this to get attention, and then makes nonsensical claims about feeling threatened by the US, I'm not going to push this to much as I'm not sure of where "Bills's" limit on this is. However, there is no way if I was NK would I call it nonsensical claims about feeling threatened by the US. Bush called 3 of them out and now has taken over one of them over.

I don't care how someone slices it or dices it, but that is how it looks to NK and they are going to do whatever it takes to make sure that there is going to be a big price to pay if someone wants to take them over. They know that they cannot win a nuke war with us and that makes them a very dangerous country. Frankly I don't blame them--I fear what they might do.

Allow me to share this little story about a rat and my brother and myself as boys. We corned this large fruit rat in the garage when we were young boys. He knew he was going to die. We knew we were going to kill him...right up and until the time he stood up on his rear legs and spit at us. We knew then that while we could kill him we also knew that one of us was going to get really bit. That rat lived a long life.

Boogyman

10-11-2006, 09:09

i never stated that bush was being victimized. please don't misquote me.

this is another misrepresentation of what i said. in a nutshell, i said that the news media has jumped on the international bandwagon of blaming pretty much all the world's ills on the president

my gripe is that the president, and america at large have become the scapegoat
Sorry, but your reply is full of contradictions. Just look at the above. You say you didn't assert that Bush has been victimized or that the media is at fault, yet in the very same post you infer that Bush has been victimized by the media. Talk about denial... :rolleyes:
to assert that he and his are the cause of most of OUR problems shows that you are wildly uniformed as to the nature of politics in this country.
Look. You can disagree about the root of our problems if you want, but I am far from "wildly uninformed" about politics in this country. For a newbie like you with so few posts to make an accusation like that about me is rather assuming of you, my friend.

It doesn't take a PHD in political science to realize that if you go around threatening people and invading their countries, you will see many of these countries beginning to arm themselves and bolster their defensive capabilities in response.

I'm not defending this Kim Jong wacko, but to just do nothing about him is pretty stupid in my opinion. I've heard this administration make ignorant statemenets over and over about how they "don't negotiate with terrorists" and then proceed to label anyone they don't agree with as a "terrorist". So then they don't negotiate with anyone they don't agree with? :wacko:

And then I hear them always saying that they're "concerned" about "sending the wrong message". Well, what kind of message does saying nothing send? Or doing nothing to open any dialogue at all? They seem to think that talking to other countries is a "sign of weakness". Yeah, a sign of weak-mindedness if you ask me.

The continued incompetency demonstrated by this administration in both foriegn and domestic affairs has become so glaringly obvious at this stage as to be indefensible. How can anyone admit to what a mess we are in and at the same time deny that those in charge are responsible for it?

Denial is a very dangerous thing. A problem cannot be fixed if the cause cannot or will not be identified.

plinky

10-11-2006, 09:12

Yeah but it gonna get awfully lonely if we are the only ones left ;)
Guess you`re right.:)

azroaddust

10-11-2006, 09:13

.......Allow me to share this little story about a rat and my brother and myself as boys. We corned this large fruit rat in the garage when we were young boys. He knew he was going to die. We knew we were going to kill him...right up and until the time he stood up on his rear legs and spit at us. We knew then that while we could kill him we also knew that one of us was going to get really bit. That rat lived a long life.

An excellent analogy.

plinky

10-11-2006, 09:15

An excellent analogy.

Only if he tried to kill the rat with his bare hands.

vindex

10-11-2006, 11:12

I'm not going to push this to much as I'm not sure of where "Bills's" limit on this is. However, there is no way if I was NK would I call it nonsensical claims about feeling threatened by the US. Bush called 3 of them out and now has taken over one of them over.

I don't care how someone slices it or dices it, but that is how it looks to NK and they are going to do whatever it takes to make sure that there is going to be a big price to pay if someone wants to take them over. They know that they cannot win a nuke war with us and that makes them a very dangerous country. Frankly I don't blame them--I fear what they might do.

Allow me to share this little story about a rat and my brother and myself as boys. We corned this large fruit rat in the garage when we were young boys. He knew he was going to die. We knew we were going to kill him...right up and until the time he stood up on his rear legs and spit at us. We knew then that while we could kill him we also knew that one of us was going to get really bit. That rat lived a long life.

point well taken, and i like your analogy. but let's not allow how the current admin has exacerbated the problem overshadow NK's long history with baiting the US and its neighbours. this is simply the most recent chapter. the NK government seeks to antagonize. the current president just gave a response that Kim was not expecting. he had long gotten used to getting his way with bullying, and now he's been thrown back on his heels...so sure, he's up on his hind legs and spitting. but HE created the situation, not anybody on this continent.

vindex

10-11-2006, 11:24

For a newbie like you with so few posts to make an accusation like that about me is rather assuming of you, my friend.

i don't care if i have 1 post or 1,000. your's or anyone's inflated post count on this board or any other is no indication of understanding of politics or any other topic of conversation. you are clrealy wholly preoccupied with the president, as he makes his way into so many of your posts. the north korean problem is not six years old. your attempts to politicize the conversation in terms of your percieved inneffectiveness of the bush administration in this matter are see-through, and are not adding anything to the dialogue here. NK and kim jong il were persistent antagonists before bush II, and they will be for the next president.

like an irritating child, that is bent on grabbing everyone's attention, NK should be ignored. china will deal with the problem sooner or later.

Boogyman

10-11-2006, 11:58

i don't care if i have 1 post or 1,000. your's or anyone's inflated post count on this board or any other is no indication of understanding of politics or any other topic of conversation.
Interesting how you should single out the one sentence that addresses the length of your participation on this board to respond to. :rolleyes:

Just because one disagrees with your views, you assume they must be ignorant of the subject at hand.
like an irritating child, that is bent on grabbing everyone's attention, NK should be ignored. china will deal with the problem sooner or later.
And you accuse me of lacking in political understanding? :wacko:

Simply dismissing a radical nuclear world threat as a "an irritating child" that should be "ignored" hardly shows much insight in foriegn affairs.

Have you heard the saying; "Never underestimate the enemy"?

Waiting for China to "deal with the problem sooner or later" is a very dangerous and lackadaisical attitude, in my opinion. Diplomacy and negotiation seem to be unheard of in this current administration, the same cannot be said of the previous one, as we were very engaged in world communications before 2000.

Isolationism leads to just that, being totally isolated. Not a good position to be in when the rest of the world is inexorably moving towards nuclear capability.

Olds

10-11-2006, 16:03

but let's not allow how the current admin has exacerbated the problem overshadow NK's long history with baiting the US and its neighbors. Oh I totally agree here.

like an irritating child, that is bent on grabbing everyone's attention, NK should be ignored. china will deal with the problem sooner or later.Agree or at least I hope it works out this way.

Like it or not but the only stick here is going to be China. Our only card is a nuke and that is not an option. Gents we can jump up and down on the bed all day long; pull our hair out and threaten to B-slap NK, but make no mistake about this only the Chinese can reach out and touch NK.

Furthermore, the UN is about as useful as bumps on a boar hog. It is the Chinese gents, the Chinese are the only hope of stopping / controlling NK. Accept the fact there is nothing we can do...unless we want to do the un-thinkable.

cowboy117

10-11-2006, 19:31

The word coming across the wire is that North Korea has tested a Nuke.A 4.2 magnitude shock wave has been detected and N. Korea says it has tested.Sounds like it could get dicey.Wonder what the reaction will be from Japan, China,South Korea and the U.S.A. if this info is true?:blink:Never a dull moment!Notice i said in the original post"If this is true".It's looking more and more like they might have blown up some sort of conventional weapon to try and gain attention and get the USA to have one on one talks[which always leads to them getting more money and aid from us].Japan has sent very sophisticated sniffers over N.K. and has found no unusual radiation levels at this time.

josh

10-11-2006, 19:55

Killer@nz

10-12-2006, 02:36

I believe all the partisan hacks saying this GW's fault for calling NK evil or blaming Carter or Clinton for appeasing the little freak are forgetting something very important.
Kim Jong Il is a power mad lunatic. If he is willing to starve the people of Nk and utterly destroy his nation in order to maintain his power, how can anyone be surprised when he resorts to such dangerous tactics?
How about putting a little blame on the man who opresses millions for his own power craving ego.

Bottom line is no matter what formula any reasonable US,Chinese ,Japanese or United Nations diplomat trys the results will be far from what is desired. A man whose only goal in life is power will not ever be apeased or threatened into playing nice.
But if fault finding in others than Kim Jong Il is an absolute must for you, maybe you could lay some blame at the feat of those who allowed a divided Korea to exist.Blame those who have tolerated the slavery of the North Korean people for all these years. Blame all of us who are complacent in the subjegation of our fellow man.

Well put. I wish the world was as black and white as it sometimes seems, What if the house painter had stayed painting houses in 1929?
Would Stalin have murdered 12 million of his own people if Karl Marx had stayed in Germany?
Does a hurricane occur in the States if a Monarch butterfly flaps its wings in my backyard?
I would like to think none of these events would have occurred without one crucial ingredient but, This was bound to happen eventually in one place or another, tomorrow, next year, next decade, next century, today.
No matter what some nut, would have got hold of a nuke in the end.
How we, and our representatives deal with this is up to us.

azroaddust

10-12-2006, 08:30

Well put. I wish the world was as black and white as it sometimes seems, What if the house painter had stayed painting houses in 1929?
Would Stalin have murdered 12 million of his own people if Karl Marx had stayed in Germany?
Does a hurricane occur in the States if a Monarch butterfly flaps its wings in my backyard?
I would like to think none of these events would have occurred without one crucial ingredient but, This was bound to happen eventually in one place or another, tomorrow, next year, next decade, next century, today.
No matter what some nut, would have got hold of a nuke in the end.
How we, and our representatives deal with this is up to us.

I don't know if you will like the idea that you and I think alike on this subject, but I too like to be retrospective on some historical events to try to determine what the root cause for them was.

I often refer to this as the the "Timothy McVey Consideration". This man was reportedly the "soldiers' soldier", did exceedingly well in the Army and was promoted to I believe Sgt in a relatively short time. He had a good record and a promising carrer ahead of him and his fellow soldiers spoke highly of him as an honorable hard-working, loyal soldier who as a Sgt lead them well.

His next step, and an important one for future promotions, was that he decided to become an Army Ranger. In my opinion he made one major mistake in his quest that changed the course of history and killed many innocent civilians. His error? He bought new combat boots for Ranger training but never properly broke them in.

He was "recycled" the maximum number of times in one of the early phases (I can't remember, so Army guys help me out, but I think you get one recycle in any one phase is all - My son proudly wears the Ranger Tabs and made it all the way through on his first attempt) and was forced to drop out of Ranger Training.

He appears to have been a proud man and probably felt he had lost face and all hope of furthering his career of being the professional soldier that he so wanted to be.

Instead, for whatever reason, he became this nations' most notorious home-grown terrorist in modern history.

All because his boots were not first properly broken in!