Let's talk about the Bad Guys around the World

[BlenderWizard]

You know I was thinking on my drive to work this morning that this forum has spent a lot of time attacking our own country and her Government (Democrats, Libertarians, Republicans, etc.). This really got me to thinking - what if we spent half as much time placing the blame with the people that truly are to blame for the problems we face today - such as the rogue governments, terrorists, dictators, thugs, and criminals.

So this is what I propose. I would like to have a running discussion concerning how bad these individuals and governments are and how we should handle them.

The only rule - other than keeping it civil and debating in a productive way - is that the U.S., her people, business, government and government officials are off limits (this includes our politicians, ambassadors, etc.).

These are just some of the bad people and governments I can think of right now in an effort to get the discussion started.

North Korea - how should the situation here be handled.
Iran - how should this situation be handled.
Venezula (Chavez) - how should the decreasing democracy in this countrybe handled.
Sudan - warlords
Somolia - warlords
Hungary - military overthrow of their government
Saddam - how would you have handled a dictator that was depriving his own people of their needs during the 10 years he was under UN sanctions - even while he was building his military, hoarding cash, torturing his own people, etc.
Syria - state sponsored terrorism
China's military build up and aiding rogue countries with missile technology
Hezbollah
Hamas
Radical Imam's - in the world - including in the U.S.


I know there are others. Do feel free to pick one of these or one of your chosing to start the debate. I will hold my thoughts until the debate starts.

JimS



The only rule - other than keeping it civil and debating in a productive way - is that the U.S., her people, business, government and government officials are off limits (this includes our politicians, ambassadors, etc.).

But what if I feel like they're to blame for everyone hating us?


So, where'd all this go?

[cowboy117]

Don't forget Cuba.No reason on earth that little khaki wearing moron should have been in power for 50 years 90 miles from our shores.A good part of the Hollywood crowd thinks he's a hero!:wacko:

[Boogyman]

The only rule - other than keeping it civil and debating in a productive way - is that the U.S., her people, business, government and government officials are off limits (this includes our politicians, ambassadors, etc.).
So you are proposing to discuss how to "handle" all these countries/leaders/organizations, without involving "the U.S., her people, business, government and government officials" in the debate? :wacko:

That doesn't leave much left except for the military, does it?

Way to load the dice there, JimS. <_<

Let me save you some time and give you the only answer you have left room for.

"Attack them all and wipe them out."

Happy? :lol:

[lima-charlie]

Where DID it go?

[NWO]

The thread was deleted by the original poster.

[BlenderWizard]

I answered it the way I saw fit, but I shall elaborate:

I think the way to deal with them is to help get them to where they don't hate us. I think the easiest way to get them to stop hating us is for those running the country to stop acting like jerks.

Essentially, we need to play nice, and play fair.

[plinky]

Essentially, we need to play nice, and play fair.

Blender, you almost sound like a liberal!:lol:

[cowboy117]

I answered it the way I saw fit, but I shall elaborate:

I think the way to deal with them is to help get them to where they don't hate us. I think the easiest way to get them to stop hating us is for those running the country to stop acting like jerks.

Essentially, we need to play nice, and play fair.Sunshine and lollypops should work!:rolleyes:

[BlenderWizard]

Blender, you almost sound like a liberal!:lol:


Well, I'm not sure which political group the school of thought that we, as a country, should stop playing world police and work on our own problems first belongs to, but that's the way I think.

Put America first; let's fix our own problems before we go trying to fix everyone else's. And while they're at it, why not keep all that foreign aid "in house" so we can have a better education system and help our own needy families?

[Boogyman]

Blender, you almost sound like a liberal!:lol:

What's wrong with that? :blink:

[Boogyman]

Sunshine and lollypops should work!:rolleyes:

That's not what I got out of Blender's statement. This is just your way of ridiculing what he said.

He may have been saying that instead of going around the world trying to force our standards and ideals on everyone else by invading and destroying their countries "pre-emptively", maybe we should mind our own damn business and we wouldn't have so many people hating us.

IRAQ. It all comes back to Iraq. Before Iraq we had a few militant terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda that were out to get us. When 9/11 happened most of the world was behind us, willing to help us hunt down Bin Laden and follow the U.S. into a true world-wide "war on terror".

But then we invaded Iraq.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. :angry:

[Olds]

Put America first; let's fix our own problems before we go trying to fix everyone else's. And while they're at it, why not keep all that foreign aid "in house" so we can have a better education system and help our own needy families?

Amen.............

[freesw]

I answered it the way I saw fit, but I shall elaborate:

I think the way to deal with them is to help get them to where they don't hate us. I think the easiest way to get them to stop hating us is for those running the country to stop acting like jerks.

Essentially, we need to play nice, and play fair.

This is actually the correct answer to the problem; it is the only answer that not only has a chance of success, it has the certainty of success.

We have too many in this country, many of them with microphones, that say that because we're the United States (implicit is that we have more and better weapons), that we can do whatever we want to do, say anything we like, and the rest of the world had better learn to live with it, and besides, we know what's good for them anyway.

****ing off the entire rest of the planet, which is precisely what has been the unintended side-effect of G. W. Bush administration policies and rhetoric, is not a recipe for long term national success.

Some take a so-what attitude, but I wonder how far down the road they've really thought this thing out.

[JimS]

I deleted the original post - I did it after the first two posts indicated that it was a useless endeavor.

As I currently see this forum, it has become either Bush or Democrat or Liberal or Conservative or whatever else AMERICAN there is BASHING.

Guys wake up - AMERICA is not our enemy - our politicians are not our enemies (yes we have the right to criticize and vote) - there seems to be the love of hating who and what we are. In fact, this has gotten to be so rampant that we now have a whole generations of kids that are GROWING UP WITH NO PRIDE IN THEIR COUNTRY - NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF - IF YOU DO NOT THINK THIS IS A PROBLEM - WATCH THE NEWS - HOPE IS DRAINING AWAY FOR OUR YOUTH BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT TAUGHT OUR CHILDREN IT IS A WONDERFUL THING TO BE AMERICAN. We are the most unique culture on the face of the earth - we are the only country that has embraced diversity as core to our culture.

The real problem in the United States is that we are so busy blaming each other and allowing the world to treat us as a whipping post that we are very quickly beginning to believe exactly what BOTH LEFT (Communism) AND RIGHT (Facism) EXTREMISTS want us to believe- that if we were to go away then the world would be a bed of roses. This is a very insidious form of subterfuge. It is eating at the very core of what America truly is - a free and caring society that has done way more GOOD in the world than anything bad that we have done - this includes our Government and Corporations.

I read the posts here and it sounds like people think that Government and Corporations are entities made up of I don't know space aliens. The people that make these up are YOUR NEIGHBORS, FRIENDS, AND FAMILY. Yes there are bad people in this country and yes our organizations sometimes lose touch due to the fact that the people in them become too distanced from who they serve or they become disillusioned because all they hear is the CRAP we throw at them.

Being diligent and critical of our government and corporations is fine - but we seem to be losing sight of taking a step back and saying how can we make it better. PERSONAL ATTACKS DO NOTHING TO MAKE ANYTHING BETTER - PLAIN AND SIMPLE. In fact, when this happens you have lost the debate as far as I am concerned.

I did not try to stack this thread other than to try to get people to read about the 100,000 of thousands of people that have and continue to suffer at the hands of the world's worst tyrants. I did not say in posing questions about handling these individuals that force was the only option - nothing in what I said would have had triggered that thought unless there was a bias that one could not see past. I said the U.S. and its entities were off limits because I did not want this to become Democrat/Republican/whatever other politics in the U.S. bashing you can think of.

Guess what no creativity, no thought, into how these should be handled - no news articles stating this is what we supposedly know and this is the way I think it should be handled - the first two responses were essentially ---- Well what if I think the U.S. is to blame for it all (if you truly think that then I invite you to go live in a country that is innocent) --- the second post made an assumption about my intentions and essentially attacked my intent.

So, given all of this - I decided to delete my post - since it appeared no one really wanted to approach this in a debatable fashion.

This is the third time I have tried something like this on this forum and well none of the have worked. I started one on morality and laws - guess what same situation and I never even interjected my own faith in the thread - I simply asked the question of how far should government go in legislating morality and used an example. I also started one concerning what there was to love about America - go back and look at your posts - most of you it was our outdoors (to be expected given this is a gun forum) - but there was very very little about our freedoms, about the people that sacrifice daily for us, about our voting rights, that the military serves the people not the other way around. I have been a lot of places over my short life and I can tell you there is plenty of beauty around the World - but no where else in this world do you see what we have with our Constitution and our Government.

Well enough preaching and I am sure I have said way to much.

Have a nice evening.
JimS

[Boogyman]

I decided to delete my post - since it appeared no one really wanted to approach this in a debatable fashion.

This is the third time I have tried something like this on this forum and well none of the have worked.
The people on this board are not your problem.

Your problem is you think you can set down strict rules of your making, designed to limit the arguments against your narrow views, and expect everybody to follow them.

And here you are accusing those that say things you don't like of bashing America:
As I currently see this forum, it has become either Bush or Democrat or Liberal or Conservative or whatever else AMERICAN there is BASHING.
Then you have the hypocrisy to say:
We are the most unique culture on the face of the earth - we are the only country that has embraced diversity as core to our culture.
HOW DARE YOU?

I love America, buddy, and I highly resent you inferring otherwise. All Americans have the unalienable right to criticize their president, government, or anyone else they so choose to. That's what sets us apart from all these countries that you call our enemies. What is it about that you don't get?

If I am angry towards your precious president and his cronies, it's because I feel that what they have done to my country is irresponsible, selfish, and inexcuseable. It's my right to feel that way, I fought for that right, I was wounded in combat when I did so, and that right belongs to every American.

And every American has the same right to express those feelings. Dissent is one of the most patriotic duties we have as responsible citizens. No true American is going to shut up just because somebody doesn't like what they say.

:usa: :usa: :usa: :usa:

If you don't like it, then TOUGH COOKIES! :angry:

[BlenderWizard]

I deleted the original post - I did it after the first two posts indicated that it was a useless endeavor.

So, given all of this - I decided to delete my post - since it appeared no one really wanted to approach this in a debatable fashion.

This is the third time I have tried something like this on this forum and well none of the have worked.


Well, you asked a question, and I felt obliged to answer in the way I saw fit.

Your parameters for a response, I felt, were to restrictive, so I answered honestly.

Sorry if you disagree.

[freesw]

I would like to have a running discussion concerning how bad these individuals and governments are and how we should handle them.

The only rule - other than keeping it civil and debating in a productive way - is that the U.S., her people, business, government and government officials are off limits (this includes our politicians, ambassadors, etc.). (emphasis added)

You want to discuss how "we" ought to handle something, and the context of "we" makes it clear you are talking about the US as a whole - people, business community, and particularly government. Then you say that discussion of who is doing the handling is off-limits?

I don't get it.

-------

One thing I want to add to my earlier post -- we'll never win the hearts and minds of people in other countries as long as we have so many popular media personalities talking trash about other cultures and societies. People in other countries do know what is said about them here, and a whole lot of it isn't good, and that has been true for as long as I can remember. It's one thing to talk about how women are oppressed in Islamic countries, for example; it's something else to make a big deal about how people in other countries don't bathe as often as Americans, and the countless other ways media personalities belittle and mock non-Americans.

When popular personalities say these things, over and over again, what are people in other countries going to think, that they don't represent the majority viewpoint? No - they're popular, best sellers in some cases, top rated talk show hosts in others. I've heard it over and over and over again.

Of course these are just words, but their pervasiveness in our culture tells people in other countries all they need to know about our real opinions and attitudes towards them, and tells them that our intentions are not as benign as our government officials tell them.

Yeah, Jim, we should take a good hard look at exactly those groups and institutions you would put off-limits for a discussion about what to do about "problem areas" of the world. You say today's kids are growing up in a society that is losing its way and doesn't respect itself? Look at the junk we feed them, the real values, not our professed ones. You're a bible believer, I think these passages
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=18&version=49
should ring uncomfortably true. We are ever increasingly living in a society that values next quarter's bottom line over all other values, that cares nothing for the poor, that even blames them for the fact that they are oppressed. The prophets had much to say to us today! We have made our physical world cancerous, and indeed we value nothing so much as growth for growth's sake, never minding the real value - or lack - of what it is that's produced, or its impact on what should be the purpose of economic activity - human lives.

[JimS]

The people on this board are not your problem.

I never said they were a problem - where do I say that? Please do not put words in my mouth.

Your problem is you think you can set down strict rules of your making, designed to limit the arguments against your narrow views, and expect everybody to follow them.

Actually that is the way you interpret it. I simply desired a discussion that did not degenerate to an APPARENT (I say apparent - because I do not know peoples true feelings and intent) hate fest for our government and our leaders. I thought it would help us focus debate and finding information on the topic at hand and not get sidetracked - I have seen that done quite a bit on this forum and elsewhere. But, apparently that was not to be the case - so I deleted my first post - then tried to explain why in the second (while I was heated - so I probably should have waited - be that as it is - I will not apologize this time).

And here you are accusing those that say things you don't like of bashing America:

Then you have the hypocrisy to say:

HOW DARE YOU?

I love America, buddy, and I highly resent you inferring otherwise. All Americans have the unalienable right to criticize their president, government, or anyone else they so choose to. That's what sets us apart from all these countries that you call our enemies. What is it about that you don't get?

Where exactly do I infer this - I made one comment about if a person that truly believes we are the evil of the world they had the option of leaving. How can one truly and I mean truly love this country if they believe we are truly the evil of the world? By the way, if you go back and read my previous post and others of mine you will see I clearly get what our Government and Constitution is about. I think I clearly stated what our country's unique qualities are in the thread on what do you love America - also, a number of times in the the What I believe...

If I am angry towards your precious president and his cronies, it's because I feel that what they have done to my country is irresponsible, selfish, and inexcuseable. It's my right to feel that way, I fought for that right, I was wounded in combat when I did so, and that right belongs to every American.

Where exactly did I say you did not have the right? The words not your slanted interpretation. If you are saying this because I had to discuss other countries and villians and not have it turn into a slam fest of U.S. politicians (NO MATTER WHAT PARTY OR DID YOU CONVIENTLY OVERLOOK THAT PART). Then you are mistaken - I have never denied you that right in any of the other threads - I started this one with a different title and direction - because it had not been discussed.

And every American has the same right to express those feelings. Dissent is one of the most patriotic duties we have as responsible citizens. No true American is going to shut up just because somebody doesn't like what they say.

Thanks for this rant here - because I was thinking I might just quit the forum altogether - but you know what (I agree you have the right to express your feelings - I have said and supported that) - just because you do not like my views does not mean I am goind to shut up either.

:usa: :usa: :usa: :usa:

If you don't like it, then TOUGH COOKIES! :angry:

You know what. Believe and think what you want (I have never said you should do otherwise) - you can continue to try to put words in my mouth and try to psyco-analyze what I am saying (that is your right - does not do much for making your case when you take it personal - but, so be it). In fact, I have read quite a few threads here on this forum trying to explain that to you - yet you persist with your approach. Again to each his own.

I have been attacked (specifically by you) several times when you have disagreed with what I have had to say. Which of us is more intolerant? Until my rant above, in an effort to explain why I deleted my thread - I have not attacked anyone on this thread in any personal way at all. No name calling, no insinuations, no saying you are blindly following others (which I believe to be code for you are stupid). Go back and look at my threads - I have never even said, your views, no matter how much I disagree with them, will not allow you to see the truth or that you were blindly following others - I have looked at your views respected them and tried to counter with my own views where I felt inclined. However, you have done that to me plenty of times. How many times have you ever admitted you might be wrong or that something you pulled for support is biased. Easy to check all you have to do is track the authors and their other pub's to see they have a political agenda. Yet, I have admitted this - in fact, I have tried to explain that none of these sites are without bias no way no how - once they take the data/information and try to tell a story with it they have introduced their bias or point of view (why do you think the Congress gets real picky about who is on a special investigations panel). I often look at both and try to see what is common.

One example of this might be the recent NIE leak - everyone jumped on paragraph and disregarded all that was around it (NY Times actually put the entire release up - still not all of the report - so there are still contextual issues) and told a story that was patently false when taken in the context of what surrounded it. (That would actually be fun to debate - as we actually have a significant part of the original report - not some talking heads analysis of what it said.)

Now I would ask - which of us truly more narrow mined or stubborn. By the way stubborn is not a bad thing - it has kept me from jumping from the frying pan to the fire many times - so to me that is a compliment - especially given I grew up in rural Missouri.

My last post had two places in it that might be called attacks - the one calling you on your first post and the one for BlenderWizard - which is what it is - one option, if you truly believe that the country is the true evil of the world. The others are swaying alot of people to believe as you do - which is not going to happen when those ideas are presented as attacks or to forcibly overthrow the government - which the 2nd Amendment insures the ability to do (thank God for our Forefathers and their faith by placing the government and military at the feet of the people instead of the other way around - as so much of the world is today).

The thread was meant to analyze other countries politics and issues (particularly those that apparently are defying not only us - but the UN and the great majority of the rest of the world) - not ours - we do that alot here. This could easily have been done by discussing options and not bringing the U.S. into it. So as I see it, you did what I think people call - Hyjacking the thread - you and BlenderWizard that is (and within just a couple of minutes) - so be it - that is your right.

As usual, we disagree.

[Boogyman]

Another tiresome, long-winded denial.
I never said they (The people on this board) were a problem - where do I say that? Please do not put words in my mouth.
My parenthesis.

Your words:
this forum has spent a lot of time attacking our own country

As I currently see this forum, it has become either Bush or Democrat or Liberal or Conservative or whatever else AMERICAN there is BASHING.

I read the posts here and it sounds like people think that Government and Corporations are entities made up of I don't know space aliens.

So, given all of this - I decided to delete my post - since it appeared no one really wanted to approach this in a debatable fashion.

This is the third time I have tried something like this on this forum and well none of the have worked.
This should be enough to show to any reasonable person the extent of your stubborn self-denial. I have neither the time, patience, or inclination to go back and show every single contradiction you have made.

It's obvious it wouldn't make a dent anyway.

[plinky]

Fellas what`s the point of this "debate"...I just wasted 5 minutes of my life reading this:wacko: ....Oh, yes...to answer the original question of the thread:
I`m an equal opportunities bigot...I hate them all.:D

[JimS]

Another tiresome, long-winded denial.

My parenthesis.

Your words:

This should be enough to show to any reasonable person the extent of your stubborn self-denial. I have neither the time, patience, or inclination to go back and show every single contradiction you have made.

It's obvious it wouldn't make a dent anyway.

Boogyman

I will apologize for the poor choice of words - I know see how it might have been misconstrued. It was not my intent to insult anyone - I sincerely simply wanted a debate that did not end in a bashing of our Politicians but rather a discussion of other countries and their politics and how they contribute to the world's problems.

So to all of you out there that took offense, I am sorry if what I wrote sounded as though I was attacking the group and forum that was not really my intent. I was simply trying to point out that we spend a lot of time complaining and blaming our country and government for things that may not be entirely our fault if we really look at it closely.

Again, I am very sorry - it would appear that my words - written in haste and too much emotion have caused me to do the very thing I had not intended. Attack American's. My bad.

My college English teacher warned us in Freshman and Softmore English class that written words did not come with voice inflections and body language and thus, could be very easily mistrued. I should have been much more careful in my choice of words in order to truly reflect what I was trying to convey.

Take care and I wish each of you a nice weekend.
JimS

[Boogyman]

Boogyman

I will apologize for the poor choice of words - I know see how it might have been misconstrued. It was not my intent to insult anyone - I sincerely simply wanted a debate that did not end in a bashing of our Politicians but rather a discussion of other countries and their politics and how they contribute to the world's problems.

So to all of you out there that took offense, I am sorry if what I wrote sounded as though I was attacking the group and forum that was not really my intent. I was simply trying to point out that we spend a lot of time complaining and blaming our country and government for things that may not be entirely our fault if we really look at it closely.

Again, I am very sorry - it would appear that my words - written in haste and too much emotion have caused me to do the very thing I had not intended. Attack American's. My bad.

My college English teacher warned us in Freshman and Softmore English class that written words did not come with voice inflections and body language and thus, could be very easily mistrued. I should have been much more careful in my choice of words in order to truly reflect what I was trying to convey.

Take care and I wish each of you a nice weekend.
JimS
JimS, you honestly suprise me. I thought that you would be too bull-headed to be objective enough to see how your posts were coming across... you have proven me wrong about you.

I accept your apology, commend you for your introspection, and offer my own apology for judging you too harshly.

You're right about written words falling short on understanding. I suspect that if we were face-to-face things might go much differently.

I've found that the thing about starting a debate with rules and restrictions as you did usually leads to immediate objections to the very rules that you want everyone to follow. I realize your objective was to keep the debate civil, but most people don't like to be told what they can talk about or not. Especially Americans... :rolleyes: and especially when politics are the issue. ;)

Here's my handshake. :)