7.62X39 for self defense

[jumpluff]

What are your thoughts on using a rifle chambered in 7.62X39 for self defense? Good choice or bad...and why? If one were determined to go this route....fmj or soft point?....and why?

[PSG1]

:) An absolut GREAT choice!Better than any handgun round because its supersonic and will do much more tissue damage.I'd go with a soft or hollow point over a full metal jacket.

[Dorkface]

Seems to work pretty good for most of the world. :)

[DaveyDug]

I would not recommend 7.62x39 for defense in an urban or suburban setting. The risk of overpenetration is a big issue. I would definately use a soft point or hollow point round for defense if the situation called for a rifle.

[gunrun45]

I actually agree with daveydug with his warning about over penetration. I voice the same whenever anyone talks about using an SKS or AK for home protection.

I highly recomend the round otherwise for self protection, medium game hunting, etc... You can carry more rounds than 308 becasue its lighter and smaller, it has moderate balistics to 150 ish yards and leaves a good size hole in your targets. I really like my mini-30 just for these atributes. It has replaced my M4 as my main cougar medicine round.

If you are looking for hunting, I would use the soft point (or whatever is legal in your state) as it allows for greater expansion in medium size game. For plinking and dangerous game I like the FMJ (it works every time). Others here have voiced a preference for hte HP rounds and calim they are more accurate. I ahven't found this to be true in my own guns, but you know rifles...they tell you what they like, not the other way around.

I like to think of the 7.62x39 as the pratical man's 308 round. Not quite battle rifle range (8mm, 308, 30-06, etc...), but definately good PDW fodder. It shares quite a bit of the same performance as the 30-30 round.

[cowboy117]

What are your thoughts on using a rifle chambered in 7.62X39 for self defense? Good choice or bad...and why? If one were determined to go this route....fmj or soft point?....and why?Are you talking home defense or SHTF?Home defense:12 Ga. shotgun.SHTF:7.62x39 is excellent choice IHMO.

[FatDaddy]

When I first bought my sks back in the early 90's, I was amazed that the 7.62X39 fmj would punch all the way through a large light pole. Just an idea of the penetration level of this round. In a rural setting I think it's an excellent choice with commercial softpoints that would expand, possibly break up on impact to cut down on the overpenetration a little.

[RGS]

I think it fills a niche. It won’t penetrate like a .308 or .30-06, but it will still turn cover into concealment in a lot of cases. This is not necessarily a bad thing. If the bad guy goes to the trouble to wear armor, or crouch behind a parked car, a little penetration can be a just what one needs to reach the target. I think the ability to put accurate direct fire on a target quickly will stop the fight faster and be safer for bystanders in the long run. Criminals tend do disregard the public safety and blaze away. The quicker they are shut down, the better. If a good rifle is handy, so be it.

[Metalhead]

+1 to RGS, Years ago I would have said "shotgun-oo buck". Today one must consider the use of body armour by felons/criminals/scumb looking to harm the innocent. I still have shotgun mentality but understand the never fail head shot. The 7.62 x 39 and most other centerfire rifles will defeat body armour as stated by RGS and penetrate/travel further than a shotgun will. Whatever you decide, train with it or it won't matter what you have at your disposal. All that being said I guess one could use the 7.62 x 39 with HP's but as stated be aware of the 7.62's abilities as far as power/penetration. Good luck.

[jumpluff]

Thanks for the excellent insights gentlemen. My goal would be home defense. Wife and daughter are very petite....recoil of shotguns is a concern.

Both have fired 7.62x39 rifles....with no recoil problems....and no problems puting lead on target....which started me thinking...as I have begun hankering for a new 580 series Mini-30.

Mini-14's have traditionally assumed the home defense role at my homestead....just wondered if the 30 (7.62X39) would fill the bill equally well?

[Marlin 45 carbine]

too much power for in-house or yard. just right for 'away from home' , use a soft point

[pbrktrt]

magsafe sells some 80gr monster hp's with lead shot epoxyed in the cavity. they should dump their energy pretty quickly without over penetration.

[Der Verge]

:) An absolut GREAT choice!Better than any handgun round because its supersonic and will do much more tissue damage.I'd go with a soft or hollow point over a full metal jacket.

In case some did not know, most handgun rounds are supersonic. It is not a question of supersonic or not, rather, specifically how fast is the bullet moving.

Rifle rounds, in general, move fast enough to cause fragmentation of the bullet upon impact. Fragmentation causes a larger permanent wound cavity than a bullet that does not fragment.

7.62X39......what is the incredibly long list of eastern bloc countries with a multitude of weapons chambered in this? As front line weaponry? I think It would make a great choice for home defense. I personally use a 12ga, and recommend a 12ga the most for in the home, but, there is nothing wrong with your choice. I would definitely go with the hollow points, as anyone breaking in will likely not be wearing armor...........

Now, if they are wearing armor, you will have to shoot them in the head. I, using the 12ga, will still shoot them in the chest, the vest actually. The force of a slug hitting the assailant's vest should release enough energy fast enough to break every rib the poor bastard has. That is what he gets for breaking in to my house.........:D

[NWO]

In case some did not know, most handgun rounds are supersonic. It is not a question of supersonic or not, rather, specifically how fast is the bullet moving.

Rifle rounds, in general, move fast enough to cause fragmentation of the bullet upon impact. Fragmentation causes a larger permanent wound cavity than a bullet that does not fragment.

7.62X39......what is the incredibly long list of eastern bloc countries with a multitude of weapons chambered in this? As front line weaponry? I think It would make a great choice for home defense. I personally use a 12ga, and recommend a 12ga the most for in the home, but, there is nothing wrong with your choice. I would definitely go with the hollow points, as anyone breaking in will likely not be wearing armor...........

Now, if they are wearing armor, you will have to shoot them in the head. I, using the 12ga, will still shoot them in the chest, the vest actually. The force of a slug hitting the assailant's vest should release enough energy fast enough to break every rib the poor bastard has. That is what he gets for breaking in to my house.........:D

It was my impression that body armor does not do much against rifle rounds. A 7.62x39 bullet should go right through body armor. No need to shoot them in the head. A torso shot should do it to the bad guy!

[2rangers]

If the need to brandish, and fire a weapon at a home invader arises, ALWAYS shoot center mass. No heads, no legs, etc.
Not many of us are proficient enough for a head shot while under such pressure and adrenaline. Trust you me, it's 10x harder than what most would think.
Also, never shoot to wound. If someone breaks into your home (not your backyard, or your shed, or your car) and with the intent to do bodily harm against you, or your family, you will have to prove to a court, somewhere, that you thought the threat to yourself/family was of a mortal nature.
A purposeful, wounding shot(ie-pelvis), could be construed by some judge, somewhere, that the shooter obviously didn't consider the threat against him being a mortal threat, and the lawful gun owner possibly goes to jail, as well as open himself up to lawsuit.
I cannot urge everyone strongly enough to educate yourself about the laws of the state and local jurisdiction where you live.
Not every state recognizes the basic, God-given right of a person to protect himself, spouse, offspring, or others residing with him(or her) from the threat of death or bodily harm from an intruder.
Some good people have undoubtedly gone to jail for defending themselves or families from home intruders bent on doing no good.
:sniper:

[DaveyDug]

It was my impression that body armor does not do much against rifle rounds. A 7.62x39 bullet should go right through body armor. No need to shoot them in the head. A torso shot should do it to the bad guy!

There are different levels of protective gear, some of which can stop rifle caliber rounds. I'm sure gunrun45 or one of the other resident cops can elaborate on this a bit more.

[RGS]

There are different levels of protective gear, some of which can stop rifle caliber rounds. I'm sure gunrun45 or one of the other resident cops can elaborate on this a bit more.

Not a cop, but saw a thing on TV about a new body armor called Dragon Skin. I did not see the whole show, but the testers shot a vest made out of this stuff on a man sized dummy. They used 9mm and .40 cal if I remember right. In any case it did not penetrate. They took the same vest and laid it on top of a live hand grenade, with a large sand bag on top of the dummy to approximate the weight of a man. The explosion blew a hole in the front of the vest next to the grenade. It also separated the front panel from the rest of the vest. However none of the fragments penetrated through the vest to the dummy!! Very impressive. They did not use a rifle on the vest for some reason.

[ice-nine]

good info on different ammo penetrating wall boards.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

[nzmini]

There are different levels of protective gear, some of which can stop rifle caliber rounds. I'm sure gunrun45 or one of the other resident cops can elaborate on this a bit more.


Type III ballistic plates will stop 7.62x39 and 5.56 rnds at 100 mtrs. We have done some basic testing on such a plate and it stoped multiple 7.62x39 and ss109 rnds with only one penatration after a few hits. (I can show pics) Having said that, plate insert armor is pretty heavy and not common among burglars etc.

[timlt]

What are your thoughts on using a rifle chambered in 7.62X39 for self defense? Good choice or bad...and why? If one were determined to go this route....fmj or soft point?....and why?

Jumpluff also wrote:

"My goal would be home defense. "

===================================

Given the way you have asked your question, it sounds like you are focused on HOME-oriented self defense. It does not sound like a front lines combat situation, or even a heavy urban combat situation. You want something that smaller, female family members could fire, perhaps even in the house if necessary.

With that in mind, I think that 7.62x39 would be a TERRIBLE round to select for your scenario. No offense, but I'm just trying to cut to the chase, and I think choosing such an ill-fitting round for home defense could have tragic results. Now, clearly the AK, or other rifles that fire this round such as the Mini-30, make outstanding battle rifles and have proven themselves worldwide. And the things folks have said above in this thread about how this round makes a good intermediate battle round, about halfway in between .223 and the heavier rounds like .308, make perfect sense. But that applies to actual combat situations, not to home defense, which is what I understand you are looking for.

For home defense, I think you need a round that meets the following criteria, listed in order of importance with most important first:

1. Able to stop an attacker.

2. Able to be fired--accurately and under control--by the members of the household who might need to use the weapon.

3. Able to do its task without excess risk of collateral damage, to others, or to yourself. Usually this refers to excessive penetration that would endanger neighbors, but in a home context, you should also consider that you do not want an overly loud round that produces a huge "bang" that damages everyone's hearing, nor should it produce a blinding flash that temporarily destroys your night vision, because a high percentage of home defense shootings are at night.


I would suggest strongly that for self-defense that you expect could occur INSIDE your home, a 7.62 will meet the first two of the above criteria, but fails miserably on the third. Instead, try to find a standard revolver or pistol caliber that is established as being an adequate man-stopping round (much debate about that, but generally 9mm on up in semiautos, and .38 SP on up in revolvers), and keep that sidearm somewhere within easy reach of your bed, for use within the house at night, as that is by far the most likely time you'll need it. And research very carefully to find a round to use for home defense that will meet the above criteria, WHEN FIRED IN THE HOUSE. Some rounds, for example the Hornady TAP self-defense ammo, are specifically designed to reduce noise and flash when fired indoors. If you choose a reasonable pistol and ammo, your female family members should have no problem firing these calibers.

Now if you want to also have a long gun for more serious defense of your house, for example, a true urban breakdown situation where you're defending outside against roving gangs, or if the fight in a home defense situation worked its way outside, that's where I think you'd consider your shotgun (it seems like most home defense experts argue the shotgun is the best all-around choice for home), or possibly a smaller caliber rifle with a frangible, low-penetration round, perhaps a carbine that fires a pistol caliber.

[gunrun45]

Most felons we find either have some sort of military contraband vest, old flak type vest (designed for FLAK, not bullets) or older LE type vests. Some poney up the dough for newer type vests but they are few and far between thank god (in my neck of the woods at least).

I have never heard of a burglar wearing a vest but I'm sure there have been some where. They are bulky and make it hard to move around quietly.

That being said, aim for center mass for gods sake. Just keep shooting if they don't go down.

Dragon skin is an interesting new product. I just got their price list today actually. Trust me, its cost prohibitive for about 90% of us. They charge by the pannel vs most other makers charging by the vest.

Example.
Safariland Level IIIA vest costs around $900 or so total cost. Extra for extra carriers, trauma plates, etc...

Dragon Skin concealable vest $1500 for front pannel of vest+ $2000 for back pannel. It varries UP from there based upon threat level and shape of the pannel.

Whats the difference? Dragon skin weighs maybe 6 lbs for their ENTIRE VEST vs safarilands weight of say abot 7-9 lbs PER SQUARE FOOT OF MATERIAL!!!!

Think of it as the difference between wearing a T-shirt or a woll sweater in August ;) Still not worth the extra $2600 in my book. But I'm a cheap SOB :lol:

[magnomark]

;) Hey gunrun45-$2600 is'nt even the cost of one trip to the emergency room nowadays!;)

[rsidner]

Most felons we find either have some sort of military contraband vest, old flak type vest (designed for FLAK, not bullets) or older LE type vests. Some poney up the dough for newer type vests but they are few and far between thank god (in my neck of the woods at least).

I have never heard of a burglar wearing a vest but I'm sure there have been some where. They are bulky and make it hard to move around quietly.

That being said, aim for center mass for gods sake. Just keep shooting if they don't go down.

Dragon skin is an interesting new product. I just got their price list today actually. Trust me, its cost prohibitive for about 90% of us. They charge by the pannel vs most other makers charging by the vest.

Example.
Safariland Level IIIA vest costs around $900 or so total cost. Extra for extra carriers, trauma plates, etc...

Dragon Skin concealable vest $1500 for front pannel of vest+ $2000 for back pannel. It varries UP from there based upon threat level and shape of the pannel.

Whats the difference? Dragon skin weighs maybe 6 lbs for their ENTIRE VEST vs safarilands weight of say abot 7-9 lbs PER SQUARE FOOT OF MATERIAL!!!!

Think of it as the difference between wearing a T-shirt or a woll sweater in August ;) Still not worth the extra $2600 in my book. But I'm a cheap SOB :lol:

I'm fine with my vest. Paid about $200 for a level IIIA PSP vest in warranty until Sep 2009 (I'm sure it will last MUCH longer than that since I only wear it on the weekends and store it flat and dry) and two 10"x12" level III Kejo steel rifle plates for $120 per plate. Steel will take a much larger amount of hits than ceramic. My plates weigh in at 6 lbs. each...not too bad for 1/4" thick steel. The vest itself weighs about 15-18 lbs and is rather fieldable. I still want some shoulder, neck, and groin protection but that's down the road. Probably get some stuff that came off an IBA or something.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/rsidner/body%20armor/IMG_0042.jpg

ETA: The point still remains that most common criminals are absolute idiots when it comes to things like body armor. As GR45 said, most are running around in nothing...or junk that they think will work. Maybe wearing a 27 year old IIA vest that they think will stop a sniper rifle and the weave is so messed up that it wouldn't stop a .22 lr. I have a 12 ga. for home defense and figure that even if someone was wearing a vest that would stop it ('00' buck), it would possibly kill them with blunt trauma to the heart or knock the wind out of them so much that they either pass out, fall over, or at least be stunned long enough for a follow up shot to the head or groin. Common criminals are CERTAINLY NOT wearing rifle plates...if they even know they exist.

[cutter]

Back in the 80's, Mossburg came out with a fairly short, .410 gage shotgun that they billed as "the perfect home defense weapon for a woman." I don't know if it is still made or not. Their theory was that a 75 pound woman (or man for that matter) that went to the range one time long enough to learn how to load it, point it, and pull the trigger could use it to fair effect. With slugs, it might be a passable choice but that negates the (maybe) 2 inch spread at 10 yards.

[DaveyDug]

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/rsidner/body%20armor/IMG_0042.jpg

Hey rsidner, is that your getaway vehicle for if the SHTF? :lol: :lol:

[rsidner]

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/rsidner/body%20armor/IMG_0042.jpg

Hey rsidner, is that your getaway vehicle for if the SHTF? :lol: :lol:

I'm not at liberty to discuss that. ;)

:lol:

[Der Verge]

Nvm.

[glshop20]

If you are not going to spend time practicing with a handgun to keep you familiarity and skill level up then a shotgun is a great option. 12 to 20 gauge pump with #4 shot for close up and buckshot if you need to go a little farther. The sound of the action cycling is enough sometimes to give a bad guy second thoughts, if not point and pull. I have shot trap loads at 1-1/2" plywood at indoor defense distances and it is impressive while not endangering those in your immediate area. Anything is better then the bat under the bed.

[twiceaweek]

The 7.62X39 might over penetrate but so what. If the bad guy needs to go down, just put him down whatever the ammo or caliber. Every time I might have fired my weapon in a crowded room because of an immediate threat, I was aware of friendlies in the area ( I was a LEO) and I moved slightly so that if I had to fire, they wouldn't be in danger from my fire. That is SOP and no big deal. The people two houses over might have been in danger, but who really G's.A.S.? Too bad, so sad. We survived.....

Prosecutor here once said that if the shooting is justified, he doesn't care if we used a bazooka.

In conclusion, do what you can do minimize other damage, but if he has to be stopped, stop him and deal with the aftermath.

[beavis]

.

7Now, if they are wearing armor, you will have to shoot them in the head. I, using the 12ga, will still shoot them in the chest, the vest actually. The force of a slug hitting the assailant's vest should release enough energy fast enough to break every rib the poor bastard has. That is what he gets for breaking in to my house.........:D

If you put the buttstock of a 12ga against someone's chest and fired, would it break any ribs?

Probably not and therefor if you shot someone who was wearing a vest and none of the rounds penetrated they would not be any more injured than if the buttstock was against them when fired.

It all goes back to Newtons Laws of Physics in that every action has an opposite and equal reaction. The blunt force of the shot column has no more and no less energy than the recoil at the buttstock end. ( the exception would be in a semi when some of the energy would be absorbed by the spring)

[nam66-67]

Can't agree beavis A 12ga will take you down at close range.Just might have to use a follow up .A slug round hurts no matter what you have on.The velocity coming out of the barrel is pretty awsome.

[deersniper6]

Most felons we find either have some sort of military contraband vest, old flak type vest (designed for FLAK, not bullets) or older LE type vests. Some poney up the dough for newer type vests but they are few and far between thank god (in my neck of the woods at least).

I have never heard of a burglar wearing a vest but I'm sure there have been some where. They are bulky and make it hard to move around quietly.

That being said, aim for center mass for gods sake. Just keep shooting if they don't go down.

Dragon skin is an interesting new product. I just got their price list today actually. Trust me, its cost prohibitive for about 90% of us. They charge by the pannel vs most other makers charging by the vest.

Example.
Safariland Level IIIA vest costs around $900 or so total cost. Extra for extra carriers, trauma plates, etc...

Dragon Skin concealable vest $1500 for front pannel of vest+ $2000 for back pannel. It varries UP from there based upon threat level and shape of the pannel.

Whats the difference? Dragon skin weighs maybe 6 lbs for their ENTIRE VEST vs safarilands weight of say abot 7-9 lbs PER SQUARE FOOT OF MATERIAL!!!!

Think of it as the difference between wearing a T-shirt or a woll sweater in August ;) Still not worth the extra $2600 in my book. But I'm a cheap SOB :lol:

have you seen how many consecutive rounds dragon skin can take though???? Its insane. its worth the money if you value your life if you need a vest get the best.

[deersniper6]

If a guy is wearing a vest and breaking into my house...he is getting several shots to the chest and then one in the head just to make sure. :lol: a few 45ACPs to the chest would probably knock the wind out of ya.

[beavis]

Can't agree beavis A 12ga will take you down at close range.Just might have to use a follow up .A slug round hurts no matter what you have on.The velocity coming out of the barrel is pretty awsome.

Yes there is a lot of velocity there and it may in fact hurt when it hits but it is questionable if it would cause any actual damage or injury if there is no penetration.

As far as knock down, the energy at the front of the barrel is no greater and no less than the recoil out the back so if it were powerfull enough to knock down the shootee it would also be powerfull enough to knock down the shooter.

Now there are some significant built in advantages to the shooter. The mechanism and weight of the gun will absorb some recoil as will the buttstock whereas the projectile is unemcombered and flies free of the gun. The buttstock also has a much larger surface area so the energy is spread out over a greater area of the body and the gun will hopefully be held with two hands and so a great deal of the recoil energy will also be absorbed by the hands and arms of the shooter. Also the shooter will know the shot is coming and will have his body prepared to absorb the recoil as well.

Since the business end of the bullet or slug is of much lesser surface area the energy will be more focused and intense at the point of impact but the vest is also designed to distribute and absorb the force so that may all be a wash.

But in the end both the shooter and the shootee (again assuming the shootee is wearing a vest that completely prevents penetration) are taking pretty much the same net amount of energy.

[deersniper6]

Yes there is a lot of velocity there and it may in fact hurt when it hits but it is questionable if it would cause any actual damage or injury if there is no penetration.

As far as knock down, the energy at the front of the barrel is no greater and no less than the recoil out the back so if it were powerfull enough to knock down the shootee it would also be powerfull enough to knock down the shooter.

Now there are some significant built in advantages to the shooter. The mechanism and weight of the gun will absorb some recoil as will the buttstock whereas the projectile is unemcombered and flies free of the gun. The buttstock also has a much larger surface area so the energy is spread out over a greater area of the body and the gun will hopefully be held with two hands and so a great deal of the recoil energy will also be absorbed by the hands and arms of the shooter. Also the shooter will know the shot is coming and will have his body prepared to absorb the recoil as well.

Since the business end of the bullet or slug is of much lesser surface area the energy will be more focused and intense at the point of impact but the vest is also designed to distribute and absorb the force so that may all be a wash.

But in the end both the shooter and the shootee (again assuming the shootee is wearing a vest that completely prevents penetration) are taking pretty much the same net amount of energy.

Sooooooo.....you are saying that you would let me shoot you in the vest??? :D

[7MAGMIKE]

Per the Federal ballistic chart their slug has excess of 2500pounds/ft of energy on impact at the muzzle. Do not ever recall feeling that from the butt stock of my Mossberg pump. More like about 35 or so pounds/ft of recoil energy. I do know of a LEO friend who has taken a pistol slug in the vest who had a pretty nasty bruise, again my Mossberg never did that. I do not believe I would willingly take a slug in the chest with even the best body armor.

[NYMini]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html

Not a pretty picture on the receiving side no matter what the cover.

[texal]

When you fire a 12 gauge slug into something, the energy is delivered over a surface area of roughly 1/3 square inch.

The reaction against your shoulder is diminished by two factors: (1) The gun probably weighs at least 100 times as much as the slug, and (2) the recoil is delivered to the entire area where the buttplate or recoil pad contacts your shoulder, and that's probably at least 4 to 6 square inches, or 12 to 18 times as much area.

Body armor strives to absorb some of the projectile's energy and distribute it over a larger area.

For a couple of interesting demonstrations of these principles, watch the last two videos on this page:

http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/circus/

("Hit the Nail on the Head" and "Bed of Nails")

The impact of a bullet or slug is analogous to taking a blow from the hammer or sledgehammer directly.

[Risasi]

Oh come on. A single .45 slug will pick a guy right off his feet and knock him flying 10ft backward. It's true, I've seen it in the movies. The same way a shotgun slug "spreads" and wipes out whole passels of angry mobs. Or a rifle can decapitate a man at 1000 yards.

Now if only the deer would watch those same movies too. They should know they're supposed to go down, especially when hitting them with a full power rifle caliber. :rolleyes:

--

Okay, seriously. 7.62 Russian is a fine caliber. I'd trust it from 0-200yd defensive ranges. (Though I have my own preferences)
Over penetration could be a concern. Depends on where you live. If you're house is in the boonies penetration and range might be important.

Also blood loss, CNS damage, shock, major structural damage. These are fight stoppers. Not "power dumping" energy into a target.


P.S. I also don't have too much of a problem w/ .223, with proper bullet choice, and knowing it's limitations. Also could the original poster fill us in on the venue in which this rifle would be used? If you're out in the sticks, either caliber is likely fine. I'd prefer that over a shottie. If you're in town I'd prefer the .223.

[g5m]

Re: "Wife and daughter are very petite....recoil of shotguns is a concern. "

You might look at 20 gauge.

[collegeb]

I dont know how petite you mean but I took my gf and her friends skeet shooting a while back. Their group average would probably be 120 lbs. Height around 5,8". They couldnt hold up my mossberg 500 28 inch barrel 12 ga., but I rented them a beretta 12. ga synthetic stock 26" barrel...dont remember the exact model but they handled it very well. There was some bruising but nobody was really that sore the next day (and they were first timers!). Both guns did have recoil pads. Used light target loads mostly. All I mean to say is you got options if they want shotties.

[deersniper6]

[QUOTE=Risasi;466098]Oh come on. A single .45 slug will pick a guy right off his feet and knock him flying 10ft backward. It's true, I've seen it in the movies. Or a rifle can decapitate a man at 1000 yards.
QUOTE]

Its true...I saw it in Last Man Standing!!! Knocked a guy out of the front door and into the middle of the street.

Also the decapitation rifle is a M-16. If you hit a guy in the neck their heads fly 10 ft up into the air like a freakin anime. (Three Kings)

[Risasi]

LOL, that's actually the movie that was in my mind when I wrote that. Too funny.

BTW: The Sergio Leone version (starring Clint Eastwood) is the best one. And it's a toss-up between the Kurosawa original and Bruce Willis version of that story.

[EDIT TO ADD] Just to keep it on topic. I wish the original poster would reply RE: the question of where this rifle's use would be intended. If it's out in the sticks I would say stick w/ the .223 and use SP ammo. But if you're just looking for change the 7.62 would be fine also. Same thing, use SP ammo.

[Steve in Allentown, PA]

Having read all the posts on this subject I'm tempted to chime in with a point of view that's different than the others. The parameters of this problem are:

1. Recoil sensitive shooters
2. The problem of over penetration

Shotguns, rifles, and pistols have each been offered as the ideal weapon. I have no argument with any of the suggestions made and would be hard pressed, if the opportunity were presented, of choosing which type to meet the threat.

I submit that a pistol caliber carbine could solve this problem nicely. The Beretta Storm (http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_rifles_main.htm) comes in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. Also there is the Mech-Tech (http://www.mechtechsys.com/) unit for the 1911 and Glock.

Probably the simplest and handiest is the Marlin Model 1894P lever action rifle with a 16" barrel chambered in .44 Magnum. This rifle is a real pussycat to shoot but hits with considerable authority. This particular model is not currently listed on Marlin's website however, they do offer a 20" barrel (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894Centerfire/1894.aspx) version. In case of a home invasion, get down behind the bed with the rifle aimed at the door. No need to go room-to-room where a shorter barrel would come in handy.

[beardenbc]

Load her up with Glaser Safety Slugs and the problem of 7.62x39 overpenetration is solved, as well as the problem of the perp surviving to sue.

[deersniper6]

I submit that a pistol caliber carbine could solve this problem nicely. The Beretta Storm (http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_rifles_main.htm) comes in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. Also there is the Mech-Tech (http://www.mechtechsys.com/) unit for the 1911 and Glock.

.

Dont forget about the Kel-tec Sub 2000. I just ordered one that uses glock mags in 9mm. They run at about 300 dollars or so. The 9mm also takes 33 round mags and this is what the site says....

The SUB-2000 is available in the following versions only:
9mm : Glock 17, Glock 19, S&W 59, Beretta 92, SIG 226
.40 Cal : Glock 22, S&W 4006, Beretta 96, SIG 226

http://www.buymilsurp.com/zencart/images/categories/SUB2000CATPIC.gif

[Ignition Override]

How about the short so-called SKS "Paratrooper" version? My standard N. SKS is really rugged and simple.

Otherwise, my Mini 14 (if not a 30 with a perfect large mag.) with hollow points,
or a really Reliable M-1 Carbine with hp's (my Kahr/Auto-Ordnance "Carbine Imitation's" bolt broke/got stuck after two months of careful use-it is now gone: Minis replaced it).

[Marlin 45 carbine]

pistol-caliber carbine is a good choice for H-D use. more so for a person not accomplished w/handgun or strong enough for pump shotty. 1 or 2 9mm's in the breadbasket is gonna mess up a BG's day. a .40 or .45 (my choice) is better but of course more recoil.

[uncle jerky]

7.62x39 is just perfect...if you want to kill your neighbors.....:o

Way too ,much penetration in that round.

[beardenbc]

Glaser safety slugs.
Glaser safety slugs.
Glaser safety slugs.
Glaser safety slugs.
Glaser safety slugs.
Glaser safety slugs.

Hasn't anyone but me heard of these?

[jmsfmtex]

+1 for timlit. I think he covered most of the bases.

[H2O MAN]

What are your thoughts on using a rifle chambered in 7.62X39 for self defense?

I like it. I would grab one of my G21s first, but my T56SHTF is my long gun for HD.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/T56SHTF-PKG.jpg

[mercdank]

for home defense, like said a shotgun would suit you better. worried about the recoil? get a 420 gauge or even a 20 gauge. with slugs or buckshot you once you hit your target, they are going down. maybe not out, but they wont want to rob you anymore. easy to load, no fooling about with magazines. your not shooting out past 25 yards, so the shotgun would provide the most coverage in an inclosed area, without the need of pinpoint accuracy.

[ryan_kalani]

I like it. I would grab one of my G21s first, but my T56SHTF is my long gun for HD.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/T56SHTF-PKG.jpg
how is the co-witness with the AP micro?

[H2O MAN]

how is the co-witness with the AP micro?

:) Something like this.

http://i34.tinypic.com/6nyps0.jpg

[Flashpoint]

Thanks for the excellent insights gentlemen. My goal would be home defense. Wife and daughter are very petite....recoil of shotguns is a concern.

Both have fired 7.62x39 rifles....with no recoil problems....and no problems puting lead on target....which started me thinking...as I have begun hankering for a new 580 series Mini-30.

Mini-14's have traditionally assumed the home defense role at my homestead....just wondered if the 30 (7.62X39) would fill the bill equally well?
I recommend pistol caliber carbines for home defense. Very low recoil, flash, and report. They are easy to handle, very easy to hit what you are aiming at with little to no training and put out a high rate of fire. They are also considerably more powerful than their pistol counterparts. High Point, Kel-Tec, and Beretta all make good reliable examples covering a wide range of tastes and budgets.

The one exception is if you have to leave your safe room and clear the house, then I would recommend a sidearm held in a retention position close to your person. It's too easy for a BG to grab the end of a rifle/shotgun as you traverse doorways.

[Zydeco76]

IMHO overpenetration is an over stated problem. SWAT teams need to be concerned with overpenetration. Frankly they shoot people more often than we do. They kill people in a veriety of places. It is their duty to protect the public while they kill people.
You are not a professional. You are trying to stay alive and keep your loved ones alive. Bad guys will go for cover when you shoot at them. I do not use a rifle for home defence. I use a shotgun with buckshot BECAUSE it will go through a wall and kill. You could screw up and kill your kid with a .22 so be aware of the situation. Be aware of their location and put the lead where it belongs. A 9mm will travel through your neighbors house better than a rifle in many cases because a rifle tends to fragment when it hits things.

[planeoldguy]

A friend in Iraq was shot twice in the back by an AK, the new armor left him sore and bruised, but no penetration, depends on armor quality available to the bad guys whether they would keep coming.

[Ignition Override]

Beware:

The intruder can be a son, daughter or wife coming in very late, sneaking down a carpet-covered, or creaking wooden hallway/steps, afraid to turn the lights on and alert you. When young, I sneaked in more than a few times (suburbs).
Family members have been shot in this situation, although very rare.
It might be prudent to switch on a light before shooting.

At least one guy did not-no more daughter. There have been close calls with much better results.
How can we know where every family member is, in our sleep?

[Fusilier]

There are some good points made in this thread.
My opinion follows:

7.62x39 (or any .30 caliber rifle round) is not a good choice for in home defense. It will go right through the exterior wall unless you have a brick/stone exterior. I have seen it first hand.
Will it work if that is all you have? Yes.

The 5.56mm round has been studied rather extensively by the FBI and others for use by police entry / SWAT teams.
I used these findings to get AR15's authorized for our team and patrol officers.
I have shot them into various building materials myself. They tend to fragment and actually penetrate less than pistol rounds.
For a rifle in home defense I would go with a 55grain 5.56mm.
You can defend it in court with the FBI study.
(which I will post when I transfer it from my work computer)

A .40 caliber hollow point pistol round becomes an FMJ as soon as the cavity fills with drywall.
Hollow points are designed to expand in fluid, not solids.

The construction of your home plays a role.

With all due respect to other posters... a head shot, in the dark, or in the light, on a moving target, with your system full of adrenaline is a very hard thing to do.
You will not be using your sights in target shooting mode.

I have seen people shot with various rounds. I have seen people die from a .22 round and people survive a 7.62 round.
Real world stuff is never as simple as the charts and tables.

Having said that, my primary house gun is a 12 gauge with a light attached.
I like shotguns.

I have seen houses shot up in drive by's with pistols and rifles. Seen some cars shot up too. Sometimes people actually get shot.
I learn something from every one.

Last year we had a man commit suicide at his doctor's office because he was done with the cancer treatment.
He put a .32 caliber revolver to his chest and that round went through his body and ended up in a wooden fence 15 yards behind him.
I was suprised by that. Never would have thought it.

As for shot placement and the courts, not going to matter unless you shoot the intruder while he is down.
A pelvis shot is no different than a shot anywhere else.
I teach to shoot at the pelvis if the suspect is wearing armor. Lot easier to hit than the head and you will drop the suspect in most cases.
Then you shoot him some more if required.
Center mass is always the place to start of course.
I teach non standard response. That means you shoot what is available. Any part of your attackers body that is exposed is what you shoot.


I have only encountered one criminal with body armor so far. Be prepared for it. Shoot them everywhere. Once you take the decision to shoot it does not matter where you hit them.

I don't know everything. I know what I have seen and submit it for your consideration.

Stay safe.

[Fusilier]

The 7.62X39 might over penetrate but so what. If the bad guy needs to go down, just put him down whatever the ammo or caliber. Every time I might have fired my weapon in a crowded room because of an immediate threat, I was aware of friendlies in the area ( I was a LEO) and I moved slightly so that if I had to fire, they wouldn't be in danger from my fire. That is SOP and no big deal. The people two houses over might have been in danger, but who really G's.A.S.? Too bad, so sad. We survived.....

Prosecutor here once said that if the shooting is justified, he doesn't care if we used a bazooka.

In conclusion, do what you can do minimize other damage, but if he has to be stopped, stop him and deal with the aftermath.


This poster is a poseur.
The real police apologize for his Walter Mitty like attempt to sound like he knows what he is talking about.
We now return you to the thread that was in progress.

[magnomark]

[[I have only encountered one criminal with body armor so far. Be prepared for it. Shoot them everywhere. Once you take the decision to shoot it does not matter where you hit them.

I don't know everything. I know what I have seen and submit it for your consideration.

Stay safe.[/quote]
Fusilier;good read and good advise-to stay alive by!;)

[p35bhp55]

I posted this once on the board and the silence was deafening, but I'll do it again anyhow. :P Mossberg youth model turkey gun in 20 ga. 21" bbl., screw chokes, rifle sights, Short stock and pump acton, handy and with 4 shot will make a mess out to 25 yards and just about anyone who can shoot at all can shoot one. If you are willing to trim the forearm a sidesaddle will hold four more (slugs?) and if you learn to short stroke it the ammo can be dropped in the reciever and loaded without removing anything from the mag tube. A 12ga. Speedfeed stock will bolt on and that's four more and some recoil help maybe, but the 20s don't fit the best, I tried this but don't use it. We live in the sticks but a rifle will never be my house gun, blast and penetration are why.

[Fusilier]

Nothing at all wrong with a 20 gauge for defense in close quarters. I would be fine with the weapon you described. And I would not want it fired at me.