View Full Version : Collateral damage or massacre?
In any war it is a sure thing that collateral damage will take place, however, the commanders do everything possible to prevent it and each case should be investigated to determine the cause, wether it was accidental or on purpose.
The promise of an investigation by Mr Bush in the killing of the +- 20 Iraqi civilians must be welcomed, however, why so long after the incident, and if any cover up is discovered, those responcible should pay for it. It is incidents like that, if true, that turn the tide against the US soldiers in Iraq and tarnish the image of well diciplined soldiers.
The dicipline of a military man must be of such a high standard that he/she should not take revenge on the local population for the death of a comrade.
In order to win the hearts and minds of the people, incidents such as massacres must be prevented, and if it take place, it should be condemmed immediately and not months after the fact and a possible cover up.
(It is my opinion, luckily I havent been in such a situation yet, had I been there, maybe I would have reacted the same and this post would not have been submitted by me, thus I cannot judge the soldiers, they and the civilians have my sympathy)
Any comments?
My appology, I did not realize this was a heated topic in another post, moderators, do what you must, delete it, move it or keep it.
Those responsible have been reprimanded bt the military. This crap now is purely political. This is just an attempt to turn the American people against their military like vietnam. So far a very small amount of the American public supports this war but troop support has not been this high in years. The media and politicians want to change that.
I hope the military can take care of its own swiftly but I hate to see the soliders get tried in the world media because then its harder to win the fight when the boys think the world is against them and they all are doing the wrong thing.
-tri
Boogyman
05-31-2006, 09:08
The thing that everyone seems to be missing here is IF THESE ARE THE FACTS, which it seems they are, then it's the truth, and the truth always comes out sooner or later.
The cover-up of this is shameful, because it shows the world that instead of America taking a righteous stance and dealing with this, we are ashamed and try to sweep it under the rug. How can we maintain a moral high ground in the world if we try to hide our own atrocities?
This sort of thing has happened in every war ever fought, on both sides. Anytime you put an army on foriegn soil where the culture is completely strange and even hostile, you are going to get the occasional backlash incident such as this.
It's how we deal with it that's important. Blaming the media is foolish, they didn't do it. They're doing their job.
The politicians didn't do it, and though some of them may see this as a political chess piece, others may be truly outraged, as I am, on how this has been handled thus far.
The fault lies at the top of the chain of command, where it should be.
For one thing, it's hard to blame the Marines for this when some of them are on their 3rd or 4th tour over there. These are not voluntary multiple tours, as in Vietnam. These are MANDATORY re-assignments, because our military is stretched so thin. On top of this is the almost unimaginable pressure of combat in a hostile environment.
The other problem is the cover-up. This is inexcusable when we are trying to win hearts and minds. If we had brought this out and dealt with it for the world to see when it happened, instead of it having to be dragged out from under the bed like a 12-year-old boy's Playboy magazines, we'd have gained a lot more respect in the eyes of the Iraqi civilian population.
Both the mishandling of this war, thin troop levels, multiple tours, etc., and the cover-up of this incident is the direct responsiblity of those at the top of the chain of command.
If America is going to talk the moral high ground, then we need to walk it too. Attempting to cover this thing up will end up costing us more lives, as the world continues to view us as tyrants and oppressors. Now we are liars too?
Josh
Shooting innocent civilians does not deserve a "reprimand", you reprimand a child for not listening to his parents. Shooting unarmed civilians needs to be investigated and if it is proven as a fact that the Marines actually did the shooting, it is nothing else than cold blooded murder.
Shooting unarmed civilians is not political "crap", it is murder with intent.
I think that the Marine high command should investigate immediately, do damage assesment and impliment measures to prevent another incident and set plans in action to regain honour and respect, even if it means to "sacrafice" those Marines responcible, BUT, only after their quilt was proven in a military court of law.
The marines must be charged in America, prosecuted in America and sentenced in America if found quilty and not in Iraq, that will be like abandoning them to the wolfs. However, the outcome of the case must be published worldwide.
Strangely, people never remember the hero's or the good brave deeds done by thousand soldiers, they remember and exploit the one rotten apple (incident) in the box.
The Liberals are trying to recreate the Mi Lia Massacre from the war in Nam. I'm not buying in to this cheap attempt to denigrate our troops.
Boogyman
05-31-2006, 17:35
The Liberals are trying to recreate the Mi Lia Massacre from the war in Nam. I'm not buying in to this cheap attempt to denigrate our troops.
Another well thought-out, objective little gem of wisdom from my favorite liberal-hater. :rolleyes: "The liberals" this, and "the liberals" that.
Yeah, it's all the liberals fault. They snuck over there and dressed up like Marines and blew those people away, and now their blaming it on the military, just to "denigrate" our troops.
"The liberals" aren't human, you know, they're really aliens from a socialistic, utopian planet called Nirvana and they're here in disguise, bent on undermining everything that tastes like apple pie or looks like a pickup truck. They want to replace baseball with frisbee golf, and t-bones with tofu. They're going to burn all the suits and ties and make everybody wear tie-dye t-shirts and sandals. They hate all soldiers, rednecks, and republicans and are trying to turn the whole planet into one big Amsterdam, with drugs growing on trees and welfare checks coming out of everybody's wazoo.
Don't "buy into it", Zen, your mind may become infected with strange thoughts of "peace" and "love" and dancing naked with flowers in your hair! :o
Heaven knows life would be a sheer hell without wars to fight and different cultures to hate, and the world over-run with "liberals" to be suspicious and fearful of! <_< Gawd, all those unwashed bodies lying around covered with beads and reeking of pot smoke!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Josh
Shooting unarmed civilians needs to be investigated and if it is proven as a fact that the Marines actually did the shooting, it is nothing else than cold blooded murder.
Shooting unarmed civilians is not political "crap", it is murder with intent.
.
I could not disagree more. This was not a normal situation. Lets see they killed some citizens of a country we are at war with. This happens in war from every army in history..
These are marines under more stress than you or I will ever know.
It would appear though you are not alone in not knowing the difference between cold blooded murder and casualties of war.
You also forget that this war is being fought in guerilla fashion. They may have been unarmed when killed but they also may have made ied's to kill our soldiers.
We do not know the facts. This story is being pushed for political reasons.
Like I said before let the military handle it. The military can punish them with anything up to and including death.
I could not disagree more. This was not a normal situation. Lets see they killed some citizens of a country we are at war with. This happens in war from every army in history..
Yes, and this was not collateral damage. It's not the Media or liberal groups trying to warp a collateral damage situation into a "murder".
It's pretty clear that the US Marines see this as a murder scenario.
And in the US, we don't allow murder, even in war. It happens, but it's never condoned, and when it's truly murder, it's prosecuted.
That's one of the things that makes us different than other countries. That's one reason why we had a completely different war in Western Europe than the Russians had in Eastern Europe. In the West, the Axis and the Allies treated each other as humans, respected most of the conventions of war (notable exception: Jews in Western Europe). In the East, where the Germans treated all Soviets as sub-humans, killing and raping and enslaving millions, the Russians saw turn-about as fair play, and did the same to the Germans and everyone that got caught in the middle.
If those killed were killed in cold blood, and it wasn't mistaken identity or collateral death, the Marines in question should be imprisoned.
Murtha had 1 thing right. If this happened as described in the media then the Marines did over-react, maybe due to the stress. They should be repremanded for their reaction and given another tour as a chance to redeem themselves. Anything harsher is uncalled for.
Over-react?
The Marines snapped after a roadside bomb, then went on a rampage and massacred unarmed civilians. That's the initial findings of the MILITARY, not some reporter. Then they went on to cover up the killings.
It's one thing to shoot a civilian that you thought was a threat to you. Mistakes are make, that's what reprimands are for. On an extreme note, it's also OK in war to bomb a town to wipe out one small enemy unit, and have hundreds of innocents killed in the process.
The purposeful targetting of unarmed civilians is murder. If a country allows it to happen, it has lost its moral compass.
Yes, and this was not collateral damage. It's not the Media or liberal groups trying to warp a collateral damage situation into a "murder".
It's pretty clear that the US Marines see this as a murder scenario.
And in the US, we don't allow murder, even in war. It happens, but it's never condoned, and when it's truly murder, it's prosecuted.
Sure but why not let the military handle it. Our legal system is so screwed up it would be a huge mistake to try them in civilian courts.
If those killed were killed in cold blood, and it wasn't mistaken identity or collateral death, the Marines in question should be imprisoned.
Only if convicted by a jury of their peers. You can bet if they were tried in a civilian court the lawyers would see to it there are no veterans with combat experience on the jury.
These guys are fighting a nonuniformed enemy. How are they supposed to know who the enemy is and is not?
Guess im just way out there. I really do not care if the enemy is killed or how many if it will keep one more american soldier safe.
Holliday
06-01-2006, 15:45
Its innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent like the media seems to think(and some people here).
I flip on the news and NEVER see any storys on the good that our military is doing over there. There is a new government in iraq and they will say only a quick few sentences on it. Another thing is, don't say YOU support the troops when your so quick to accuse them of murder, its just plain horse ****.
faawrenchbndr
06-01-2006, 15:58
Sadly........these Marines are guilty
....untill proven innocent!
Before the trial, or Courts Martial has begun, most here already have them sentenced!
Sure but why not let the military handle it. Our legal system is so screwed up it would be a huge mistake to try them in civilian courts.
Did I say that it should be in civilian courts? Of course not. Not ours, anyhow, and we shouldn't turn them over to Iraqi courts.
These guys are fighting a nonuniformed enemy. How are they supposed to know who the enemy is and is not?
That's not the point. If what you say is true, then everyone in Iraq should be killed. Wonderful thoughts there, guy.
The point is that this is not a case (apparently) of "mistaken identity". The guys went ape****, and starting slaying civilians. We have a military code of justice that can hold them responsible for murder.
From the UCMJ (http://www.army.mil/references/ucmj2.htm):
918. ART. 118. MURDER
Any person subject to this chapter whom without justification or excuse, unlawfully kills a human being, when he- -
(1) has a premeditated design to kill;
(2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm;
(3) is engaged in an act which is inherently dangerous to others and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or
(4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson;
is guilty of murder, and shall suffer such punishment as a court-martial may direct, except that if found guilty under clause (1) or (4), he shall suffer death or imprisonment for life as a court-martial may direct.
919. ART. 119. MANSLAUGHTER
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who, with an intent to kill or inflict great bodily harm, unlawfully kills a human being in the heat of sudden passion caused by adequate provocation is guilty of voluntary manslaughter and shall be punished as a court- martial may direct.
(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, without an intent to kill or inflict great bodily harm, unlawfully kills a human being--
(1) by culpable negligence; or
(2) while perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate an offense, other than those named in clause (4) of section 918 of this title (article 118), directly affecting the person;
is guilty of involuntary manslaughter and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Sadly........these Marines are guilty
....untill proven innocent!
Before the trial, or Courts Martial has begun, most here already have them sentenced!
Sure, but we still report on crimes before the trial. Happens EVERY DAY.
We also put people in jail and hold them for crimes that they have not yet been tried of.
I'd love for it to turn out that this was all a mistake, that Iraqi's killed them and faked it. But the initial reports from Uncle Sam are that this is a situation where they crossed that line.
Did any of you have an opinion as to OJ Simpon's guilt or innocence prior to his trial?
Do you think that the press should not report on captured suspects until after a trial?
Do you think that murder suspects should be allowed to be on their own recognizance while awaiting trial?
Boogyman
06-01-2006, 19:25
Its innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent like the media seems to think(and some people here).
I flip on the news and NEVER see any storys on the good that our military is doing over there. There is a new government in iraq and they will say only a quick few sentences on it. Another thing is, don't say YOU support the troops when your so quick to accuse them of murder, its just plain horse ****.
Please don't accuse anybody of "not supporting the troops" because they support the validity of these allegations. That's pretty damn insulting, and a very unfair thing to say.
These reports are coming directly from the Pentagon, so according to your warped logic, the Pentagon doesn't support our troops.
"Horse****", huh?
Military to Report Marines Killed Iraqi Civilians
By THOM SHANKER, ERIC SCHMITT and RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.
Published: May 26, 2006
WASHINGTON, May 25 — A military investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, Congressional, military and Pentagon officials said Thursday.
The military is looking into civilian deaths in Haditha, Iraq. Residents there said several marines carried out unprovoked killings.
Two lawyers involved in discussions about individual marines' defenses said they thought the investigation could result in charges of murder, a capital offense. That possibility and the emerging details of the killings have raised fears that the incident could be the gravest case involving misconduct by American ground forces in Iraq.
Officials briefed on preliminary results of the inquiry said the civilians killed at Haditha, a lawless, insurgent-plagued city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, did not die from a makeshift bomb, as the military first reported, or in cross-fire between marines and attackers, as was later announced. A separate inquiry has begun to find whether the events were deliberately covered up.
Evidence indicates that the civilians were killed during a sustained sweep by a small group of marines that lasted three to five hours and included shootings of five men standing near a taxi at a checkpoint, and killings inside at least two homes that included women and children, officials said.
That evidence, described by Congressional, Pentagon and military officials briefed on the inquiry, suggested to one Congressional official that the killings were "methodical in nature."
Congressional and military officials say the Naval Criminal Investigative Service inquiry is focusing on the actions of a Marine Corps staff sergeant serving as squad leader at the time, but that Marine officials have told members of Congress that up to a dozen other marines in the unit are also under investigation. Officials briefed on the inquiry said that most of the bullets that killed the civilians were now thought to have been "fired by a couple of rifles," as one of them put it.
The killings were first reported by Time magazine in March, based on accounts from survivors and human rights groups, and members of Congress have spoken publicly about the episode in recent days. But the new accounts from Congressional, military and Pentagon officials added significant new details to the picture. All of those who discussed the case had to be granted anonymity before they would talk about the findings emerging from the investigation.
A second, parallel inquiry was ordered by the second-ranking general in Iraq to examine whether any marines on the ground at Haditha, or any of their superior officers, tried to cover up the killings by filing false reports up the chain of command. That inquiry, conducted by an Army officer assigned to the Multinational Corps headquarters in Iraq, is expected to report its findings in coming days.
In an unusual sign of high-level concern, the commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, flew from Washington to Iraq on Thursday to give a series of speeches to his forces re-emphasizing compliance with international laws of armed conflict, the Geneva Conventions and the American military's own rules of engagement.
"Recent serious allegations concerning actions of marines in combat have caused me concern," General Hagee said in a statement issued upon his departure. The statement did not mention any specific incident.
The first official report from the military, issued on Nov. 20, said that "a U.S. marine and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb" and that "immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire."
Military investigators have since uncovered a far different set of facts from what was first reported, partly aided by marines who are cooperating with the inquiry and partly guided by reports filed by a separate unit that arrived to gather intelligence and document the attack; those reports contradicted the original version of the marines, Pentagon officials said.
One senior Defense Department official who has been briefed on the initial findings, when asked how many of the 24 dead Iraqis were killed by the improvised bomb as initially reported, paused and said, "Zero."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/26/world/middleeast/26haditha.html
Holliday
06-01-2006, 20:35
Please don't accuse anybody of "not supporting the troops" because they support the validity of these allegations. That's pretty damn insulting, and a very unfair thing to say.
These reports are coming directly from the Pentagon, so according to your warped logic, the Pentagon doesn't support our troops.
"Horse****", huh?
Innocent until proven guilty
So if your mother, daughter, wife or whatever was accused of killing someone and they said they had evidence that she did. and this was pretrial or conviction and you take the sides of the accusers, how would you be supporting the accused?
frankly we know nothing until an investigation is over with. why are you quick to assume its murder? You don't know and i don't know. but what i do know is i support the troops over there in Iraq that are there so that i can selfishly sit at home and argue with computer chair politicians. I'm never going to be quick to judge these people and i sure in hell will never call them out as murder's before they are prosecuted. I may have done that with OJ Simpson but he wasn't sitting in Iraq taking gun fire and defending my rights as an American. he did nothing for me. These people have and they
Please go back and read the statements. There are accusations with plenty of evidence that warrant a trial. It does NOT mean that all that are brought into trial are necessarily guilty. In fact, there is some evidence that only a few rifles are the ones used. It could be 2 or 3 bad apples out of an otherwise upstanding force.
You can support our troops and still expect them to follow our military code of justice.
Waving around "innocent until proven guilty" is such crap. OF COURSE THEY ARE. That doesn't make them less of a suspect. They deserve a good lawyer, a solid defense, and if they are innocent in deed, they will likely be found innocent by law.
Do you want to undermine our troops? Then don't prosecute these guys. Then the entire Arab world will have one more piece of evidence that the US military is out lynching people. If you want to combat that feeling, you have to let the justice system work it out and convict those that deserve to be convicted.
Holliday
06-01-2006, 22:02
Please go back and read the statements. There are accusations with plenty of evidence that warrant a trial. It does NOT mean that all that are brought into trial are necessarily guilty. In fact, there is some evidence that only a few rifles are the ones used. It could be 2 or 3 bad apples out of an otherwise upstanding force.
You can support our troops and still expect them to follow our military code of justice.
Waving around "innocent until proven guilty" is such crap. OF COURSE THEY ARE. That doesn't make them less of a suspect. They deserve a good lawyer, a solid defense, and if they are innocent in deed, they will likely be found innocent by law.
Do you want to undermine our troops? Then don't prosecute these guys. Then the entire Arab world will have one more piece of evidence that the US military is out lynching people. If you want to combat that feeling, you have to let the justice system work it out and convict those that deserve to be convicted.
No no. In no way shape or form if ithese guys are guilty of murder or any other war crime do i want them to get away with it. In fact if guilty i belive its only right that they are given harsh harsh punishments. its only fair, 99.9% of our troops are doing a good job and bad apples( as you say) are getting all the attention, if they murder they should be punished and harshly. These Marines are treated as such that they are already guilty of something that is not yet totally investigated by some people and those are the ones that im complaining about(murtha and so on). There needs to be a trial but untill its complete i dont think that we should be accusing them of murder. If 2 or 3 of them are guilty, the media has made it out to be all of them.
it doesnt matter now though, the word is already out and people will belive what they want to belive even if they are guilty or not.
Boogyman
06-01-2006, 22:32
what i do know is i support the troops over there in Iraq
i sure in hell will never call them out as murder's before they are prosecuted.
You know what you can do with your "more patriotic than thou" crap. Shove it where the sun don't shine. I've had it with your insults. I've left my blood soaked into foriegn soil for my country and I'm not taking any more of these ignorant insinuations from you.
I never called anybody a murderer and you know it. Your so busy waving the flag and propping yourself up as Joe Super-Patriot that you can't see what's in front of your face.
This incident and the subsequent cover-up is gonna cost us way more lives than you can imagine. Especially if we do nothing about it. Have you noticed the riots in Afghanistan and the rise in violence in Iraq lately? What do you think sh*t like this does for America's credibility and morality in the eyes of the world?
A true patriot will always do whatever is best for his country, even if it means having to prosecute his own brothers-in-arms to save the lives and moral integrity of his countrymen. American soldiers stand for things like Honor and Duty, not hiding and lying.
Lefties search out every word that denigrates Americas troops and they gobble them up like beans and expect everyone to be fooled into thinking that your flatulance is truth. You need to go downwind.
Holliday
06-01-2006, 22:51
You know what you can do with your "more patriotic than thou" crap. Shove it where the sun don't shine. I've had it with your insults. I've left my blood soaked into foriegn soil for my country and I'm not taking any more of these ignorant insinuations from you.
where have i insulted you? I wouldn't think that i would stoop low and start name calling or threatening anybody. In fact, im not saying im more patriotic than anybody here. You know i can't make you comprehend what i said so take it however way you want, but i would like to keep on topic and not make this something personal. I don't poke my head in political threads much anymore because the first few threads start out good. then about at this point it blows up and has to be locked. I'm sure zipper would love it if we can keep his thread going.
Boogyman
06-01-2006, 22:58
Who the hell are you talking to Zen? Do you have any idea what your talking about?
You know what? I'm sick and tired of clueless punks like you who've never been there spouting garbage about sh*t you know nothing about. You can't stick to facts, you constantly put words in people's mouths (I never called anyone a murderer or denigrated our troops in any way) and generally making asinine statements and insulting people your not worth shining the boots of. Take your blind, ignorant drivel and shove it up your a$$!
I'M OUTTA HERE!
If the members go back to my previuous two postings on this subject, they will see that I stated the following in other wordings.
The marines must be prosecuted in America before a military court, they will only be quilty after prima faci evidence was submitted that they actually did kill the civilians. If their quilt are proven, they must be punished according to the US military law and not civilian laws because they were on duty, in uniform when the alledged act took place.
In comparrasion, during 2005 a South African Airforce sergeant raped and killed a 14 year old prostitue in the Congo during a peace keeping mission.
He was charged with murder of the first degree and appeared in the RSA before a military court. If found quilty he would have recieved a life sentence. However, during May 2006,while awaiting the outcome of the charge, he got hold of an assault rifle in his home unit, shot his wife, killed his little daughter and son with bullets in the back while they were trying to run away. He then tried to commit suicide but was not successful.
At present there is a huge investigation going on, at this stage it would seems that he could not take the media presure of the Congo rape/killing and rejection of his fellow soldiers anymore. The end result is that he is now facing three murder charges, his wife survived and is currently recovering in a military hospital and he is in the detention barracks, awaiting additional charges.
Not the same sircumstances as the marines, but it can happen that some of them also crumble before the media and crack up.
Hope what Im trying to say here make sense to the readers.
I flip on the news and NEVER see any storys on the good that our military is doing over there. There is a new government in iraq and they will say only a quick few sentences on it.
Oh baloney. Whether it's PBS or NPR, there is PLENTY of good, positive info about what is going on over there with the new government and all. No it isn't sugar-coated pablum, but it's in-depth and balanced. I don't know what news channel you watch or listen to, but if you aren't getting the news I'd suggest switching to one of these sources where you will.
Edit: Not being able to see how any contribution I could make would add any light instead of more heat, I'm going to leave the other thing alone.
Did I say that it should be in civilian courts? Of course
not. Not ours, anyhow, and we shouldn't turn them over to Iraqi courts.
Ok but there are plenty saying they should be tried in civilian courts
including Murtha.There are plenty calling for action to be taken that presumes these mens guilt.
Also unless they are found guilty and shot by a
firing squad the military will always be accused of covering it up.
Did I say that it should be in civilian courts? Of course
not. Not ours, anyhow, and we shouldn't turn them over to Iraqi courts.
That's not the point.
It was an honest question. I have no
military experience so I cannot understand how these guys are supposed
to dight an enemy that could be begging for water one minute and
killing them the next without occasionally killing innocents.
Did I say that it should be in civilian courts? Of course
not. Not ours, anyhow, and we shouldn't turn them over to Iraqi courts.
That's not the point. If what you say is true, then everyone in Iraq
should be killed. Wonderful thoughts there, guy.
A war to
annihilate iraq,killing them all ,I could understand. When at war it
seems to me killing your enemy is the goal.This crap we are doing now
just seems like a way to kill off brave americans.
It also seems to me that the mental state of these men should play a part in their punishment. We routinely give
criminals lesser charges based on insanity or mental illness. I would
hope that the mental state brought on by combat and grief would also
enter into any consideration of the actions of these men.
I've left my blood soaked into foriegn soil for my country
This is why I would expect you of all people to be slow to judgement without the facts. The rest of us who have never been there can't begin to understand the tremendous toll that combat takes on a person.
I never called anybody a murderer and you know it.
True but did not seem to have much of a problem with those who have called our troops murders. Sometimes you are guilty by association. it may not be right but that is the assumption that people make.[/quote]
This incident and the subsequent cover-up is gonna cost us way more lives than you can imagine. Especially if we do nothing about it.
Im not sure about that. Maybe you would care to elaborate.
Have you noticed the riots in Afghanistan and the rise in violence in Iraq lately?
You dont think it has more to do with people not likeing a foreign army occupying their country?Especially people who have been programmed to hate anyone not muslim.
What do you think sh*t like this does for America's credibility and morality in the eyes of the world?
That is the last thing that concerns me.
I am not insulting you, although you may see it that way.
But I have to ask if you arent letting your hatred of G.W. and the republicans cloud your judgement?
SPARTEN117
06-02-2006, 14:37
I'M OUTTA HERE! Here we go again:rolleyes:
There are plenty calling for action to be taken that presumes these mens guilt.
Who? Show me some Americans (I don't care what Iraqi's want) that say that these men should be punished without a trial. That's what you mean when you say "action to be taken that presumes guilt". Unless you mean something else. Investigating and possibly trying someone doesn't PRESUME GUILT.
It also seems to me that the mental state of these men should play a part in their punishment. We routinely give
criminals lesser charges based on insanity or mental illness. I would
hope that the mental state brought on by combat and grief would also
enter into any consideration of the actions of these men.
We also give the military personnel a LOT of leeway. We have killed 10's of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians in the last 3 years. But we assume that the vast majority of them follow the rules of war... they are collateral damage that should be avoided, but we don't blame individual soldiers for their actions when they had no intention of killing civilians.
However, if you or I blow up a building, and kill some civilians, we are at the very least guilty of manslaughter.
It's very tough to be in the military, and things like this WILL happen. It's our duty as Americans to ensure that it's the exception, not the rule, by being vigilant against abuses.
cowboy117
06-02-2006, 22:03
Holliday and Zen,your'e my new hero's!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:
Zydeco76
06-02-2006, 22:40
Marines are killers. Marines more specifically kill people. They do it well. They do it savagely. The things they do to other people are horrific. Thats what they are supposed to do.
There is no place for an inoccent civilian where marines are dieing. If they rolled into my town I would'nt be anywhere near them if I looked like their enemy. Call it self preservation. I think it may have gone down exactly as it was reported. Men do evil things when called upon to do evil. War is ugly and evil. The way we are doing it is going to have repeat occurences like this. If you want a police force build one. If you need people killed call the Marines.
Boogyman
06-03-2006, 10:33
where have i insulted you?
In fact, im not saying im more patriotic than anybody here.
Quote=Holliday: " Another thing is, don't say YOU support the troops when your so quick to accuse them of murder, its just plain horse ****."
Holliday
06-03-2006, 10:45
Quote=Holliday: " Another thing is, don't say YOU support the troops when your so quick to accuse them of murder, its just plain horse ****."
then i said this
These Marines are treated as such that they are already guilty of something that is not yet totally investigated by some people and those are the ones that im complaining about(murtha and so on).
But yeah i do belive that if your accusing them of murder before a trial and a total investigation that you're not supporting the troops. again i dont know what happened and im going to wait for a trial before i belive they murdered anybody. And if they did then i would expect them to recieve really harsh penalties.
Boogyman
06-03-2006, 11:01
Josh, how can you be so blind. It's hard to believe you can't put these simple points together into a practical concept. Here is a perfect example of you just not getting it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogyman
This incident and the subsequent cover-up is gonna cost us way more lives than you can imagine. Especially if we do nothing about it.
Josh: "Im not sure about that. Maybe you would care to elaborate."
What is it that you don't understand? The Iraqi's see us trying to cover up allegations of killing innocent civilians in their country. You can't see how this creates anger and outrage against our troops, thus increasing insurgent activity, thus increasing attacks on US soldiers, thus costing us lives?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogyman
Have you noticed the riots in Afghanistan and the rise in violence in Iraq lately?
Josh: "You dont think it has more to do with people not likeing a foreign army occupying their country?Especially people who have been programmed to hate anyone not muslim."
No, obviously it has more to do with said "foriegn army" (us) covering up the alleged massacre of innocent civilians in their country.
You seem to be incapable of seeing anything from anyone else's viewpoint but your own. To the Iraqi's, WE are the ones programmed to hate MUSLIMS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogyman
What do you think sh*t like this does for America's credibility and morality in the eyes of the world?
Josh: "That is the last thing that concerns me."
This is the most revealing statement you've ever made. This essentially proves that you have absolutely no understanding of war, foriegn affairs, diplomacy, "winning hearts and minds", or anything else relevant to this topic.
How can you not be concerned about America's moral standing and integrity?
Basically you are saying that America isn't the least bit responsible for it's actions, that theoretically we can just go around killing, invading, lying, stealing and destroying with absolutely NO concern over how the rest of the world would view such actions, or the consequences thereof.
This has got the be the most clueless and asinine thing I've ever heard anyone say.
Boogyman
06-03-2006, 11:03
then i said this
But yeah i do belive that if your accusing them of murder before a trial and a total investigation that you're not supporting the troops.
WHERE THE HELL DID I ACCUSE ANYBODY OF MURDER, DAMMIT!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogyman
I never called anybody a murderer and you know it.
Josh: "True but did not seem to have much of a problem with those who have called our troops murders. Sometimes you are guilty by association. it may not be right but that is the assumption that people make."
Yeah? Well you know where you can stick your f*cking "assumations"!!!
Boogyman
06-03-2006, 11:21
Another examole of your utter lack of understanding, Josh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogyman
I've left my blood soaked into foriegn soil for my country
Josh: "This is why I would expect you of all people to be slow to judgement without the facts. The rest of us who have never been there can't begin to understand the tremendous toll that combat takes on a person."
You admit you know nothing of war or combat, but you have the audacity to tell me what you "expect" of me! IN THE SAME STATEMENT!!!
You wonder why I get so frustrated trying to debate you? It's because of sh*t like this! You're all over the place!
Do you even go back and read the incredibly disjointed and self-contradictory gibberish that you write? How can any sensible person say this sh*t and not realize how ridiculous it is?
GAWD!!!
Holliday
06-03-2006, 14:39
If you didnt accuse the marines of murder then boogyman why are you mad? My comments are directed towards those such as murtha.
Another examole of your utter lack of understanding, Josh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogyman
I've left my blood soaked into foriegn soil for my country
Josh: "This is why I would expect you of all people to be slow to judgement without the facts. The rest of us who have never been there can't begin to understand the tremendous toll that combat takes on a person."
You admit you know nothing of war or combat, but you have the audacity to tell me what you "expect" of me! IN THE SAME STATEMENT!!!
You wonder why I get so frustrated trying to debate you? It's because of sh*t like this! You're all over the place!
Do you even go back and read the incredibly disjointed and self-contradictory gibberish that you write? How can any sensible person say this sh*t and not realize how ridiculous it is?
GAWD!!!
What is your deal. I ask your opinion and you go off the deep end. It seems you cannot handle someone asking you to explain your opinions.
[quote=Boogyman]Another examole of your utter lack of understanding, Josh:
I do not understand your stance on this. That is why im asking.
This is one of the few times I thought your opinion and beliefs may be of more value than others. Guess I was way off.
Boogyman
06-03-2006, 15:00
If you didnt accuse the marines of murder then boogyman why are you mad? My comments are directed towards those such as murtha.
You're lying. This is your exact statement: Quote=Holliday: " Another thing is, don't say YOU support the troops when your so quick to accuse them of murder, its just plain horse ****." You even capitalized the word "YOU".
These fellow Veterans can say it better than I can.
"The attacks on the valor and sacrifice of John Murtha are an affront to every man and woman who has ever served this country. Like thousands of other veterans, I take the insults to John Murtha personally, and I am deeply angered." --- John Wolfe
Murtha's Band of Brothers Falls In
Posted by DavidNYC
I've said this before (http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/12/our_band_of_bro.php), and I'll say it again: There's nothing like strength in numbers. Republican cowards (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/1/14/213030/258) are attempting to swiftboat Rep. John Murtha. We won't let it happen. Col. Murtha's fellow veterans are justly incensed - they know that if you attack one servicemember, you attack them all. And so, Murtha's Band of Brothers is making a tremendous show of force on his behalf. The message to would-be swiftboaters: If you falsely come after one of our number, you're gonna have to deal with an entire platoon of us (http://www.bandofbrothers2006.org/):
Questioning the honor of a decorated American veteran like Congressman Murtha shows a lack of respect for the sacrifices made by all those who serve.
It is easy for cowards to attack the honorable service of veterans. All they need is a typewriter and a few leisurely hours. But, happily, the shrill attacks of partisan hacks are nothing to people like Jack Murtha.
It is not easy to toe the line, defending the American freedom for which so many have given what Lincoln called “the last full measure of devotion.”
I condemn anyone or any group that challenges the sacred honor and sacrifice of my fellow veterans, whether they are Republican or Democrat, man or woman. The people of my district know that the sacrifice of our men and women in uniform is sacred.
Chris Carney (http://www.carneyforcongress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (PA-10)
I will stand beside John Murtha, in front of him, and behind him whenever some Member of Congress, who has never worn the uniform of her country, calls him a coward.
As long as the Radical Right-highjacked Republican Party of Tom DeLay and Jack Abramoff insists that the only way to discuss our nation’s involvement in Iraq is to call decorated Marines cowards, they demonstrate clearly that they have lost the legitimacy needed to govern.
A twice-awarded Purple Heart recipient need not prove to anyone — let alone someone who could not tell a Marine Colonel from Colonel Sanders — anything other than the ability to hold Patriotism above Partisanship.
Eric Massa (http://www.massaforcongress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (NY-29)
The partisan attacks on John Murtha by the chickenhawks of the radical right aptly demonstrates the hypocrisy of their failed leadership. Hiding behind the “support our troops” slogan, to send our sons and daughters to fight unnecessary wars, they attack real heroes who have served their country honorably and have been willing to sacrifice their own lives in the service of the United States of America. Demeaning John Murtha’s service is an affront to all American soldiers who have served in combat and especially to those who have been wounded and awarded the Purple Heart.
As an Airborne Ranger with two tours of combat service in Vietnam, I am offended beyond words. The actions of these political weasels are not only despicable, they are un-American.
Terry F. Stulce (http://terry06.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (TN-03)
Read on for more. Over a dozen veterans have already spoken out on Murtha's behalf, and more are doing so every day. To add your voice to theirs, please consider signing our petition (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/681546983?ltl=1137803975).
The bottom line is that John Murtha volunteered to serve in Vietnam — enough said!
Rick Penberthy (http://rickpenberthy.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (FL-05)
When they stoop to this level of slander, they only show how desperate they’ve become. They know they’ve made serious mistakes in Iraq but to cover up their own incompetence, they send out their proxies with outrageous lies about Congressman Murtha’s heroic military record.
However, the American people are fed up with gutter politics. They want the Bush Administration to show that they know what they’re doing in Iraq, that they know what’s going on in Iraq and that they have a realistic exit strategy instead of meaningless platitudes such as “We’ll stay until the job is done.”
Rich Sexton (http://richsextonforcongress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (NJ-03)
It is unfortunate that the Bush Administration and Republican Party leadership have decided to continue their war AGAINST the troops and veterans with their dishonorable attacks on John Murtha. From Lew Puller in the late ’70s, through John McCain and Al Gore in 2000, Max Cleland in 2002, John Kerry in 2004, and now John Murtha, the Republican Party has attacked the military record of its opponents without regard for their valiant service to their country.
A President who actively avoided serving in Vietnam now sees fit to attack a man who served heroically in several wars. Perhaps the saddest part of this is knowing that somewhere in Iraq right now there is a person serving their country with honor and distinction, and some day that service will be turned against them by the Republican Party if they should choose to be a Democrat. I call on Republican leaders to stop this Republican war on America’s veterans and instead to honor those who choose to serve their country!
Bill Winter (http://www.winterforcongress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (CO-06)
“Service is the rent we pay for room on this earth.” — Rep. Shirley Chisholm
John Murtha has served this country proudly in times of war and peace. Following the logic of the late Rep. Shirley Chisholm, John Murtha has paid enough rent for himself and a few more people. This recent attack reflects poorly on the respect we have today for service because it illuminates the amount of energy spent tearing down the character of a person who served rather than honoring courageous effort.
It’s time for an attitude adjustment in this country. We can no longer say we support the troops when they fight for this country on foreign soil but treat them like the enemy when they fight for this country at home.
Mishonda Baldwin (http://www.baldwinforcongress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (MD-03)
I agree with Congressman Jack Murtha of Pennsylvania, who believes that we should remove our troops from Iraq as soon as possible. They are exhausted and demoralized. Rather than preventing violence, we have become a cause of the violence. If we withdraw, the insurgency will eventually quell, and the Iraqis will be free to manage and rule their own country. I advocate an immediate withdrawal of our troops from Iraq, not only to prevent further loss of life but to stop the further depletion of our national resources and treasure and to restore America’s honor and prestige throughout the world.
John Wolfe (http://wolfe2006.org/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (OH-13)
The attacks on the valor and sacrifice of John Murtha are an affront to every man and woman who has ever served this country. Like thousands of other veterans, I take the insults to John Murtha personally, and I am deeply angered.
Rick Cornstuble (http://www.corn4congress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (IN-04)
Attacking the military record of an American soldier, by groups too cowardly to use their own voices in the attack, is a travesty. How anyone could ever deign to speak ill of another American’s sacrifice for their nation is beyond me, particular a soldier with the extensive military and bipartisan political record of John Murtha.
Anyone who does not immediately disavow support for such people and such heinous slurs is guilty of an obvious, despicable and disgusting lack of support for our troops and our veterans.
Dave Bruderly (http://www.bruderly.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (FL-06)
Partisan and personal attacks by supporters of the war in Iraq against Jack Murtha should be viewed as validating his points. When people attack the messenger it is clear they have no ability to respond to the truth he is telling.
Rep. Murtha is a Marine and these attacks will be but pin-pricks for him. Still, the assault on a man’s combat record in service to policies created by those who avoided combat is the work of pygmies.
Anyone who served in Viet Nam knows that enlisted Marines earned every damn medal they got, and many they never received. If you have not stood up to the test you cannot judge others who have.
When we talk of “cowardice” we ought perhaps to consider the behavior of the Commander-in-Chief. President Bush, who has sent men and women into harm’s way, often underequipped, and asked them to sacrifice for our country has not, since 2003 even had the guts to speak before a hostile audience. I always believed that leaders lead by example.
Al Weed (http://alweedforcongress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (VA-05)
Here we go again, armchair warriors launching obscene attacks on the heroism of people who have placed themselves in harm’s way. This time it’s the courage of Congressman John Murtha — one tough Marine.
This obscene attack sends a terrible message to all our service men and women, but especially those who are dying and being wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan this very day.
It is time for all Americans to denounce those who sully the Purple Heart and those who have earned it.
These so-called patriots so cavalierly send other people’s children into harm’s way without proper equipment or planning. And then they have the nerve to denigrate their wounds. How dare they demean such courage and sacrifice!
Phil Avillo (http://www.avilloforcongress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (PA-19)
Remember the disgraceful “Swift Boat” attacks on John Kerry’s wartime service? Well, this time it’s Rep. Jack Murtha who is the target of the sleazy attacks.
This is sick and sad.
I don’t completely agree with Jack Murtha’s approach on Iraq, but I understand where his frustration is coming from, and I have nothing but admiriation for his service both as a Marine and as a member of the Armed Services Committee. A man with Jack Murtha’s background deserves better than to be smeared by a group of Beltway apparatchiks who never wore a uniform once they got past Webelos or Brownies.
Peter Sullivan (http://www.sullivanforcongress.org/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (NH-01)
The attempt to tarnish the military record of Jack Murtha and other Democratic veterans cheapens the long term value of military service for short the term partisan gain of Republican party hacks.
Military service is the highest calling of citizenship. Those who denigrate the heroic sacrifice of men like Max Cleland and others denigrate the service of all veterans past and present.
The great and lasting attraction of military service has always been the universal, apolitical affection and respect Americans have for those who serve.
Shame on those who politicize service and patriotism at a time when both Republicans and Democrats are dying on the field of battle.
Bryan Lentz (http://www.lentzforcongress.com/)
Candidate for U.S. House of Representatives (PA-07)
http://www.swingstateproject.com/2006/01/pa12_murthas_ba_1.php
But I have to ask if you arent letting your hatred of G.W. and the republicans cloud your judgement?
I think your last post answers that question quite well.
Boogyman
06-03-2006, 15:16
What is your deal. I ask your opinion and you go off the deep end. It seems you cannot handle someone asking you to explain your opinions.
I do not understand your stance on this. That is why im asking.
Bullcrap. You didn't "ask my opinion". You said "This is why I would expect you of all people to be slow to judgement without the facts."
I don't see any question in there. Anybody?
On top of making outrageous statements, you are now attempting to LIE about what you said.
Go take a flying leap.
Boogyman
06-03-2006, 15:20
I think your last post answers that question quite well.
I don't give a flying rat's a$$ what you think, you've proven your "opinion" to be worthless too many times now.
Go play at the kiddy table.
Reread the post. Every thing I said except that was a question. yes I did have those expectations of you because that is how the vets I know have all reacted to this except the one who said "give the guys a medal".
How could I lie everything is typed out in plain sight for all to see. Why would I care to lie? Why must you destroy a thread with your overeactions?
This is juvenile. Im done argueing with you it does nothing to enhance this thread and may get it locked.
Holliday
06-03-2006, 18:21
Yeah im lieing alright. If i directed my comment towards you i would have said your name or quoted you. This thread is going to end up just getting locked if you can't stay on subject and are going to make it personal.
Boogyman
06-03-2006, 18:55
Yeah im lieing alright. If i directed my comment towards you i would have said your name or quoted you. This thread is going to end up just getting locked if you can't stay on subject and are going to make it personal.
Yeah, you are lying, and all the B.S. in the world won't squirm you out of it.
This is your exact statement: Quote=Holliday: " Another thing is, don't say YOU support the troops when your so quick to accuse them of murder, its just plain horse ****." You even capitalized the word "YOU". You were talking to ME. Read post #18, you DID quote me.
YOU are the one who made it personal, so no more lame attempts to hang that on me too. Anybody can go back and see the truth, so why don't you just be a man and admit it?
SPARTEN117
06-03-2006, 19:05
Boogyhttp://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_soapbox.gifJoshhttp://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_soapbox.gifHolidayhttp://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_soapbox.gifMehttp://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl2.gif
http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_boozer.gif
Holliday
06-03-2006, 22:20
lmao :lol: okie dokie, have fun with that. I didnt know you also went by the name "YOU".
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.