Stopping power

[plinky]

How is the stopping power of a .38special compared to a 9mm and a .357 compared to a .45 acp?
Thanks

[Billy_B0b]

here's a cool link:

http://www.ballistics-experts.com/Law%20Enforcement/Ammunition/Caliber%20Selection.htm


http://www.ballistics-experts.com/images/Law%20enforcement/Chart%20Fig%202.gif

[plinky]

Hey, this one`s really good! Thank you!:) Never though the .38 special would be that wimpy though...

[gunrun45]

Plinky: Don't be so quick to dismiss the 38 yet. It was fielded by LEO's around hte world for several generations with several different projectiles. The 38 +P semi jacketed hollow point is still listed as the most effective handgun roud ever fielded by law enforcement. I still know CHP Officers who would take their old 357 smiths loaded with 38+P semi jacketed HP's any day of the week over their 40 S&W's. That was the whole idea behind the development of the 357 sig cartridge. Semi auto versions of the VERY effective round with a larger ammunition reserve (magazines). It jsut wasn't very well deployed on the west coast. There are still LE agencies in the mid west and east coast that issue 357 sig weapons.

There was an interesting book called "One stop shots" written by Edd Sanow and another LEO (name slips my mind). They wrote this rather thick volume in an attempt to find the "ultimate" projectile based on stopping power. They did case studdies regarding effective one stop shots and evaluated different calibers and recovered projectiles from actual shootings around the United States. It was (is) a good book but they didn't take into account shot placement. I have used and refered to both versions (2nd printing ) in professional papers and presentations I have given around the United Staes. Its a good book for lots of reasons.

This is a time honored debate that usually involves a lot of yelling and posturing.

I can tell you that the 38/9mm loads are close the the same in effectiveness when loaded with the same projectile. The 45 makes a bigger hole but if you don't have the right projectile type the hole just slams shut again and you don't get any blood loss. The table above does not list projectile weight, pressures, muzzle velocity, barrle lengths, etc...whick are just a few of the mitigating factors involved with guaging the effective "power" of a load.

For example, the 223 got a lot of hype (just ask boogy) when it first came out and "hydrostatic shock" was touted as being able to blow arms clean off. Nothing but stucky. Jsut ask anyone who has had to shoot somebody multiple times with a M4. The claim was later touted by a later company using the name "Hydro-shock" and exploding water jugs in an attempt to capitalize off of the same ideas. More stucky.

Shot placement is everything and everything else is subjective to personal preference and comfort levels.

[josh]

I have seen this chart before. It is not perfect. I am not a 38spc or a revolver fan but it is a lot better round than this chart shows. especialy properly handloaded.

[ShootinDave]

today's 38 spec is just as good as 9mm. It also has great short barrel expansion in most loads. There are so many factors one must bring up besides energy when choosing what caliber is best.....

Stopping power...... energy/bullet mass/expansion/weight retention.... many things

- Dave

[plinky]

Gunrun, guys...thanks for getting this straight. I know that Police officers were carrying S&W .38`s like these

http://www.retting.com//components/com_phpshop/show_image_in_imgtag.php?filename=3fcb4c772337e099 2548086b5f1cc339.jpg&newxsize=130&newysize=130&fileout=

for decades, while Detectives and FBI agents had .38 snubbys, obviously for some good reason. I know that some detectives still stick to their .357 Smiths rather than carrying a semi auto pistol.
This chart was kind of surprising I must say. Also, is it true that the .40S&W round is more powerful than the .45 ACP?

As for the early 5.56, from what I`ve read the barrel twist and bullet weight were not "matching", in other words the bullet was not sufficiently stabilized and came in tumbling (especially after hiiting through leaves and such), inflicting unusally big wounds for it`s size, what gave it a reputation as a "killer round"

[gunrun45]

The 40S&W typically has a higher velocity if that is what you mean. I wouldn't say that it is a better "stopper" than the 45ACP is though. I like the 135 grn 40S&W Cor Bons (in my everday environment) because the round fragments into 2 to 3 pieces when dilivered into a "target" (not jello) and will not overpenetrate your "target". But Cor Bon makes the equivelant load for the 45ACP too. I've carried both extensively and feel well armed with either. In fact I now carry a H&K USP45f on duty and a H&K USP40c off duty (same round count in full cap mags). I feel equally well armed with either. My department mandates the 135 grn Cor Bons based on testing and evaluations of shootings. We still carry the 230 grn Hydroshocks because they are kinda my range master's "pet" load.

With the load ranges of factory available ammunition available today you can turn relatively small calibers (9mm say) into much more capable stoppers.

I can tell you that the 45 leaves a bigger hole and thus allows for more fuild loss (when compared with with equal projectiles). For me the bigger holeleaves a lot of comfort level. Its a proven stopper.

[plinky]

There was an interesting book called "One stop shots" written by Edd Sanow and another LEO (name slips my mind). .

Gunrun is the name of the second author Marshall, by any chance?

[rod]

They will ALL stop someone if you shoot them right.

[gunrun45]

Gunrun is the name of the second author Marshall, by any chance?
Yep! Brain fart on that one plinky. Sorry. Really is worth the money for a good read.

Mike

[plinky]

Yep! Brain fart on that one plinky. Sorry. Really is worth the money for a good read.

Mike

Thanks! The funny thing is, I`ve posted this chart on another board and one of the guys said basically the same as you did, but he mentioned Marshall and could not remember the second name : Sanow:lol:

[texasrick]

Main flaw in the charts above is that it rates the rounds based on kenetic energy. That's the same flawed reasoning that started the whole "hydrostatic shock" garbage. It gives an unrealistic advantage to velosity (Velosity-squared in the formula).

A more realistic and "real world" way to rate rounds is momentum or better yet the Taylor's Knock Out formula (TKO).

In the real world.....and from 30+ years or shooting........the TKO omes as close to perfect as anything I've used (in both rifles as well as handguns).

The .45acp hits "harder" than any .38 / 9mm round ever developed regardless of what energy figures may say. Just like the .45-70 has more "punch" at 50 yards than smaller caliber "super magnums" listed at twice it's energy.

If you want real world, not theory........read the writings of Elmer Keith

[SpitfireCole]

The most important part of stopping power is shot placement, so make sure whatever caliber you select you are comfortable with it's recoil.

[Old Judge Creek]

...In the real world.....and from 30+ years or shooting........the TKO omes as close to perfect as anything I've used (in both rifles as well as handguns).
...
If you want real world, not theory........read the writings of Elmer Keith

AAAAA-MEN, Pard !

I've been a shooter since 1950... yes, 19 and 50. And I was taught to shoot a 45 at age 10, by my Dad's 1st Sgt.

Since, I've spent a lifetime in the outdoors and almost every bit of it packing one kind of gun or another and I'm here to tellya the diference between that "table" and reality is a fer piece indeed.

I personally think the whole ultra light, ultra fast bullet school of thought is - in my Personal Opinion - a crock.

For a manstopper, I'll take a 240-250 lead bullet at 850-875 fps any day. It's controllable and guaranteed to stop a fight with any reasonable placement.

For serious need to conceal occasiona, I carry S&W J Frame 38s stoked with +P.

But I'm just an old dinosaur, if you prefer to bet your bacon elsewhere... Pard, be my guest.

[RGS]

If you have not seen this thread it is an eye opener. The man does not claim to be an expert in ballistics or whatever one has to be an expert in to preach which caliber is better.

He is a shooter. He is "one of us". Because of his job, he has a unique perspective on this subject and fascinating first hand knowledge of the damage bullets actually do versus what the ballistic gelatin tests show.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/550103904/m/5471026821

[jwp]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wbr.htm

there is an expert [fackler] who does post the truth