Does the term battle rifle fit anymore?

[kid_couteau]

Hi All

Just kind of surfing around the AR vs Mini post and got to thinking.

Ya know I cant think of too many rifles nowadays that would fit my definition of a battle rifle. (now please make allowances because I am fairly new to the mil surp mil rifle area)

To me a battle rifle is a rifle I would use in battle. Therefore it needs to be able to hold up to the following specs: (in my opinion and it is worth just what ya paid for it.):D

Must be able to sight easily.

Removable mags or at least stripper clip capable.

Able to use a scope if need be but iron sights are a must.

Sufficient caliber to take whatever game you are currently after.

Have sling mounts.

Have protected sights.

Hold up to rugged close quarter battle (hand to hand)

Hold a sustained rate of fire.

From what I know here the best gun for this is the Garand.

Now before you laugh please think on this.

I have had AKs, AR and other mil surps

Not much holding the stock on AKs or ARs and neither would make a good hand to hand club.

Just a thought Folks

Kid Couteau

[TPW]

From what I know here the best gun for this is the Garand. Not much holding the stock on AKs or ARs and neither would make a good hand to hand club.

Garand.....Great weapon but not enough fire power to compete with AK's which are being used world wide as a battle weapon. Eight round clips on a Garand are no match against 20, 30 and 40 round mags on an AK.
As for hand to hand, your better off with a pistol or bayonette. When they get that close, there's no room to swing anything.
Take my word for it..........

[Dorkface]

Yes it does. To a battle rifle.

A battle rifle is a full-size weapon the shoots a full power round. M1 Garand, M-14, M1903 and so on(I cant think of any foregin ones off the top of my head).

An M-16, Ak-47's and the like are Assualt Weapons which means its full auto, shoots an intermediate powered round and is compact. Right now the thing alot of countries are doing are useing their assault weapons AS a battle rifle.

Detachable mags, sling mounts, club ablity, scope ablity and the want to use it in "Battle" have nothing to do with it.

:)

[TPW]

Battle weapon, Assault weapon, it's just a play on words. They will both kill you just the same. Neither one will discriminate.

[Greg Graham]

but how I see it, an M1A/M14 is a pretty good compromise (without compromising much) between a battle rifle and an assault weapon.

The 308 is by no means the 06, but it is very hard hitting, out to significant ranges; the 20 rd mag is far superior to that of the Garand's 8rd stripper clips; and should it come to hand to hand combat, I'd prefer the M1's size and length (like the Garand) for both clubbing" purposes and the reach with a fixed bayonet.

At times, the M1A's/M14's size, weight, lack of pistol grip, and lack of auto/group fire could be compromising, but the Scout, and even SOCOM, versions could provide usefull.

Like I said, I'm no soldier, just spinning my wheels here. If I were in the thick of it, and I'm debating leaping in, I do think I'd want a little more than the M16/.223.

Take care

[TPW]

Greg,

Your point is well taken. I suppose it would depend on the playing field. Close quarters or distance fighting? Example, the soldiers in Iraq would be at a great disadvantage with the M-14. It's too heavy and too long. Perhaps the shorter version, Socom would be better? In house to house, room to room fighting, you need a light, small weapon with firepower, M16, AK. For field use, distance shooting, the opposite would be true. JMO........

[Boogyman]

Greg,

Your point is well taken. I suppose it would depend on the playing field. Close quarters or distance fighting? Example, the soldiers in Iraq would be at a great disadvantage with the M-14. It's too heavy and too long. Perhaps the shorter version, Socom would be better? In house to house, room to room fighting, you need a light, small weapon with firepower, M16, AK. For field use, distance shooting, the opposite would be true. JMO........

TPW is right here. It depends on the type of "battle".

Room-to-room, give me a MAC-10, but I'd rather just toss grenades in first.

Street or jungle I'll take an AK47, or an M16.

Long distance, open battlefield, a Garand or M14 would be my choice.

[TPW]

Boogyman,

I see you use the 196th Light Inf. Bde. patch as your logo. Were you in that outfit?

[Boogyman]

Boogyman,

I see you use the 196th Light Inf. Bde. patch as your logo. Were you in that outfit?

Yep. 1st Btn, 46th Reg, Quang Tin Prov, I Corp, VN, WIA 4/72, FB Irene, Tam Ky AO.

TPW, didn't you tell me once you were a VN grunt too? Who were you with?

[TPW]

Two outfits......1st Bde, 57th AHC, gunner, and 3rd of the 8th, 4th Inf. Div. AO II Corp, Kontum Province. WIA, 1/10/68, Dak To, Hill 875 supporting the 173rd Airborne.

[Boogyman]

Welcome home, Bro! :)

You were in a few years before me. Were you on TDY with the 4th?

Got hit at Dak To, huh? Heard that was some heavy sh*t...

Speaking of "battle" rifles, I would've traded my M16 for an AK47 any day. The most important thing to me in a weapon is that it fires every time you pull the trigger, even after dragging it through the mud, and there was a lot of mud over there!

[Dorkface]

Example, the soldiers in Iraq would be at a great disadvantage with the M-14.

Interesting... That must be why there are so many M-14s over there being begged, barrowed or stolen... I have even heard stories of guys buying their own to take over there. The distances in Iraq and especially Afganistan are proving to be too much for the M-4's and M-16's. As well as all the drugs the insurgants are hopped up on. :)

[TPW]

Yes, TDY with the 4th. They needed M-60 machine gunners. The fighting during TET was bad and all units were being basterdized. We had guys from all over. One platoon would have as many as four or five different outfits. Where ever they needed you, that's where you went regardless of outfit. Even had the 9th Div. from I Corp and the 1st Cav. And yes,
Dak To was rough. Overrun and hand to hand.
Welcome home to you as well......

[Dorkface]

The 308 is by no means the 06, but it is very hard hitting, out to significant ranges; the 20 rd mag is far superior to that of the Garand's 8rd stripper clips;

The 7.62 NATO and 30-06 military round pretty much have the same speed, muzzle volocity, the same bullet(gr and all). The difference comes into play with hunting ammo and rolling your own. Atleast thats what I remember when I was researching it.

Also the M1 Garand was designed with a detachable mag but the military wanted the 8rd enbloc because they would beable to spread out the ammo better and wouldnt have to provide as much. or atleast thats the story I have heard.

[TPW]

Dorkface

Interesting... That must be why there are so many M-14s over there being begged, barrowed or stolen... I have even heard stories of guys buying their own to take over there. The distances in Iraq and especially Afganistan are proving to be too much for the M-4's and M-16's. As well as all the drugs the insurgants are hopped up on.

Don't know where your getting your information from, but as I said before, it depends on the playing field. As for bringing your own weapons to Iraq, I doubt that's the norm. I would think the military would not allow it. JMO

[Boogyman]

Yes, TDY with the 4th. They needed M-60 machine gunners. The fighting during TET was bad and all units were being basterdized. We had guys from all over. One platoon would have as many as four or five different outfits. Where ever they needed you, that's where you went regardless of outfit. Even had the 9th Div. from I Corp and the 1st Cav. And yes,
Dak To was rough. Overrun and hand to hand.

The M-60 gunners were scarce when I was there too. Right after joining my unit our M-60 guy got hit so I humped it for a while 'cuz I was a FNG and big enough to handle it. Drew a lot of fire with that thing, I was glad to give it up!
We had hand-to-hand once when we jumped a platoon of VC, they were so close they just rushed us before before we could open up on them. It's pretty crazy sh*t. You're right in your earlier post, there's no room to swing your weapon, just drop it, pull your bayonet and "grab 'n stab".
Not fun.

[TPW]

Boogyman,

That's all behind us now. I feel bad for our troops in Iraq and Afganistan. If they would take old farts like me, I'd go over and take someones place so one of the young troops could come home. We know what it's like and also know that they will leave their youth in that country and come home different people, if they are lucky enough to come home. God Bless all of them.
Guess we better get back on the subject matter before one of the other posters yell at us! ;) Glad to see you made it back to the world.....Happy Easter!

[Boogyman]

Yeah it's not exactly fond memories for me either. Happy Easter to you too, and to all those kids who will return from Iraq as men, and hopefully with their bodies and minds intact.

As far as the subject on "battle" rifles, I reckon anything that you can pick up and use effectively in combat is a battle rifle. A lot depends on the terrain and situation. Personally, I'd rather have a good radio to call in artillery and air support! ;)

[Dorkface]

Battle Rifle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle

The term battle rifle can have different meanings. Usually it refers to rifles firing a "full-sized" (as opposed to "intermediate") cartridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_%28firearms%29), such as .303 British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British) or 7.62 × 51 mm NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_%C3%97_51_mm_NATO), from a full-length barrel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_barrel). A main battle rifle is a battle rifle that is used as a military service rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_rifle). Battle rifles may be bolt-action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt-action), semi-automatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_firearm) or fully-automatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_firearm). Modern battle rifles are capable of selective fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_fire). There is debate that some assault rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifles) are battle rifles, and this can be hard to determine, but almost all battle rifles have a long barrel and fire a large caliber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber) round.
It is unclear who suggested the famous term but some say it originated from Jeff Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_%28colonel%29). It suggests that there are three generations of the battle rifle:

A 1st generation rifle is a military bolt-action rifle, such as the Mosin-Nagant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant), Springfield M1903 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_1903_rifle), Karabiner 98k (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k) or Lee-Enfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield).
A 2nd generation rifle would be a semi-automatic military rifle, like the SVT-40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVT-40), Gewehr 43 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_43) or M1 Garand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand).
A 3rd generation rifle, a selective fire rifle, such as the FN FAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL), M14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_%28rifle%29), and Heckler & Koch G3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G3).This does not take into account that 1st generation rifles were given to a large percentage of soldiers and were usually accompanied by submachine guns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submachine_gun) and 2nd generation rifles. Third generation rifles, however, were given to almost all soldiers.
In practice, the use of firing fully-automatic with a battle rifle was discouraged or disabled in most militaries due to excessive recoil for the average user. The "heavy" or "full" battle rifle has been replaced in common use by the smaller assault rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle), firing intermediate rounds producing less recoil.


Assault rifle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

An assault rifle is a type of automatic rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_rifle) generally defined as a selective fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_fire) rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle) or carbine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine), chambering intermediate-powered ammunition. They are categorized between the larger and heavier light machine gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_machine_gun) and the weaker submachine gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submachine_gun). Assault rifles are the standard small arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arms) in most modern armies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army), having largely replaced or suplemented larger, more powerful rifles in regular use.
The name is a translation of the German word Sturmgewehr coined by Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) to describe the Sturmgewehr 44 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgewehr_44). It gradually became a popular term for this type of firearm. The term has since been retro-actively applied to earlier weapons with similar traits.


Well what do ya know... looks alot like my first post eh? :)

Edited to add: Theres a alot more info thru the assault rifle link that I didnt copy and paste. :)

[TPW]

Boogyman

Personally, I'd rather have a good radio to call in artillery and air support! ;)

Roger That, Big Time! Nothing like a good old fire mission!

[LonePathfinder]

To me the terms mean:

Battle Rifle: full size rifle/MG round like Nato 7.62mm, 30'06 in a semi-automatic detachable magazine weapon like the M14, FAL, G3 etc

Assault Rifle: a intermediate round like th 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, 5.45mm in a semiautomatic or auto detachable box fed weapon

Service Rifle: a fixed magazine semi auto weapon in a full size rifle round like th Garand or similar; service rifle also can mean any current general issue rifle

Bolt Action: generic military bolt action rifles.

The new fad terms like EBR (expeditionary battle rifle or expeditionary black rifle) I take to mean assault rifle weapons. But I define a *battle* rifle as a full size semi auto, not a intermediate cartridge weapon.

[gunrun45]

I believe there is a reason why the military is snatching up as many M14 type weapons that it can these days. With a shorter (18in) barrel and pistol grip type stock these weapons are still battle rifles in my book. In warfare you don't worry to much about overpenetration, etc... that you do here in the civilian LE world so the 308 round would be ideal.

Call me crazy though, there is just something about picking up a true M14 and smelling that wood. You feel the heft of that weapon and the comfort of that 20 round mag...its a real weapon. Makes me want to buy another one!

Boogy is right. You have to pick the weapon to fit the situation. Hopefully you get it right. I carry a handgun on duty, a tricked AR-15 AND tricked rem 870 for CQB stuff in cities and a M14 (semi auto version) for long work. If you asked me to to long work with my handgun I'd laugh at you.

Is there a role for a true Battle Rifle in todays ultra modern military? Absolutely. Talk to anybody who's hit the dirt with the wrong tool for the day and they'll tell you so.

[nzmini]

Hey TPW and Boogy, I'm not going to yell at you for talking about VN. I'm jest a tad too young to have been there (joined the service in 74) but many of the guys I served with were. The way you guys were treated by some on return is a lasting shame. So, let me add my "welcome home" as well. Maybe 30 years too late, but still sincerely meant.

And as for "battle rifle", I don't think you can go far past an L1A1 SLR. Outstanding weapon. 308 cal, 20-30 rnd mag, accurate, lots of reach, just as reliable as an ak, pistol grip, what more can you ask? Yeah, I know I'm gonna take some incomming for this, but, still a supurb weapon.

[TPW]

nzmini

Thank you for the kind words, and thank YOU for serving our country.
Best regards,

An old grunt............;)

[nzmini]

TPW

Thanks for the thanks, but I can't in all honesty claim them. I served OUR country, New Zealand. We did however stand alongside the US in VN. I don't want to get into a debate on the rights or wrongs of that war but all our guys were volunteers and ALL the ones I have spoken too were proud to have served there. Our Artillery (161 Bty) was there 65-71 and we also had some inf there as well but I'm not sure of the dates. Our Army was thick with words, phrases and radio proceedure that I latter recognized as straight from Vn.

Old soldiers never die, they simply fade away.

Don't fade too quickly man.

NZ

[Boogyman]

Hey TPW and Boogy, I'm not going to yell at you for talking about VN. I'm jest a tad too young to have been there (joined the service in 74) but many of the guys I served with were. The way you guys were treated by some on return is a lasting shame. So, let me add my "welcome home" as well. Maybe 30 years too late, but still sincerely meant.

And as for "battle rifle", I don't think you can go far past an L1A1 SLR. Outstanding weapon. 308 cal, 20-30 rnd mag, accurate, lots of reach, just as reliable as an ak, pistol grip, what more can you ask? Yeah, I know I'm gonna take some incomming for this, but, still a supurb weapon.

Thanks Nzmini, for your sincere words, and thank you and your countrymen for being our valued allies, not only in VN but in many other conflicts around the world throughout history. I'd love to visit New Zealand someday, what I've seen on TV it looks absolutely beautiful! ;)

The L1A1 is an outstanding weapon, I'd have no problem with carrying one in combat. I did basic training with an M14, and loved the reach and accuracy of the .308 cartridge. We were issued M16's for AIT Infantry training and though they were easier to handle, I always wished for my M14 back.

[nzmini]

Hey Boogy,

Anytime you want to make the trip you will be assured of a cold beer and a warm welcome. Take a bit of time to walk round a bit of the farm with a mini and get a fallow deer or two.

[Boogyman]

Thanks, Mate! I love beer, deer, and warm welcomes... :D

[Bill]

Battle weapon, Assault weapon, it's just a play on words. They will both kill you just the same. Neither one will discriminate.

That's sort of like saying "Corvette, mini-van, they both will get you across town".

We have a rich language for a reason. Don't dumb it down!

[Nobody]

Battle Rifle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle

The term battle rifle can have different meanings. Usually it refers to rifles firing a "full-sized" (as opposed to "intermediate") cartridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_%28firearms%29), such as .303 British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British) or 7.62 × 51 mm NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_%C3%97_51_mm_NATO), from a full-length barrel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_barrel). A main battle rifle is a battle rifle that is used as a military service rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_rifle). Battle rifles may be bolt-action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt-action), semi-automatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_firearm) or fully-automatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_firearm). Modern battle rifles are capable of selective fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_fire). There is debate that some assault rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifles) are battle rifles, and this can be hard to determine, but almost all battle rifles have a long barrel and fire a large caliber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber) round.
It is unclear who suggested the famous term but some say it originated from Jeff Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_%28colonel%29). It suggests that there are three generations of the battle rifle:

A 1st generation rifle is a military bolt-action rifle, such as the Mosin-Nagant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant), Springfield M1903 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_1903_rifle), Karabiner 98k (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k) or Lee-Enfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield).
A 2nd generation rifle would be a semi-automatic military rifle, like the SVT-40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVT-40), Gewehr 43 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_43) or M1 Garand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand).
A 3rd generation rifle, a selective fire rifle, such as the FN FAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL), M14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_%28rifle%29), and Heckler & Koch G3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G3).This does not take into account that 1st generation rifles were given to a large percentage of soldiers and were usually accompanied by submachine guns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submachine_gun) and 2nd generation rifles. Third generation rifles, however, were given to almost all soldiers.
In practice, the use of firing fully-automatic with a battle rifle was discouraged or disabled in most militaries due to excessive recoil for the average user. The "heavy" or "full" battle rifle has been replaced in common use by the smaller assault rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle), firing intermediate rounds producing less recoil.


Assault rifle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

An assault rifle is a type of automatic rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_rifle) generally defined as a selective fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_fire) rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle) or carbine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine), chambering intermediate-powered ammunition. They are categorized between the larger and heavier light machine gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_machine_gun) and the weaker submachine gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submachine_gun). Assault rifles are the standard small arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arms) in most modern armies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army), having largely replaced or suplemented larger, more powerful rifles in regular use.
The name is a translation of the German word Sturmgewehr coined by Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) to describe the Sturmgewehr 44 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgewehr_44). It gradually became a popular term for this type of firearm. The term has since been retro-actively applied to earlier weapons with similar traits.


Well what do ya know... looks alot like my first post eh? :)

Edited to add: Theres a alot more info thru the assault rifle link that I didnt copy and paste. :)

I don't think that selective-fire is a necessary requirement anymore. The FAL rifles were generally issued as semiauto only because the recoil was too severe to effectively use full-auto. Likewise, the M16 is no longer issued full-auto capable. It is limited to 3-round burst and, even then, most soldiers don't use it because the effective result is a 10-shot weapon. Prior to the 3-round burst, full-auto was considered extremely wasteful, and the M16 was effectively a 5- or 6-shot weapon. You may disagree, but the AR-15 and the Mini-14 are probably just as effective in battle as their automatic counterparts, and much less wasteful of ammunition.

[Enforcer]

You might be surprized but even Bolt Action Rifles have their place in short and medium combat ranges. It depends on what kind of War your fighting for example, even an old Mosin Nagant, Enfield, or Mauser would do just fine in a Geurilla War. You got to remember, you have limited supplies, limited ammunition and limited weapons. With an old Bolt Action like one of those you shoot more powerful rounds, which means more stopping power, you also got to remember supplies are limited so if something breaks down you may be Rifleless. So an old Bolt Action is exceptional for reliability, in Ambushes or Sniping Roles a Bolt Action can still excell and be effective. You don't spray lead with one, you take ONE good shot. With limited ammunition these old Rifles can be worth their weight in Gold, you don't shoot as much as your rate of fire is lower, but in trade you get a rifle that is more powerful, and that is more reliable thanks to less parts which makes repairs much easier.

Myself my SKS can do the job as a Battle Rifle, it holds Ten rounds and it's extremely reliable. I can trust it to work when I need it. It might not hold as many rounds as the newer rifles but in many cases it can still be an effective weapon.

[Enforcer]

bump

[Dorkface]

I don't think that selective-fire is a necessary requirement anymore.

... To the military there is. Why do you think finestine came up with the term assalut WEAPON?

But irregardless the main factor between and assault rifle and a battle rifle is the round it shoots! Its all in my quoted post. :)