22 rifle versus handgun for self defense

[jumpluff]

From a purely ballistic perspective....what would you choose for self defense...a 22LR rifle (like a 10/22) or a handgun (pistol or revolver...pick your caliber)?:o

[tri70]

I like the 9mm round because I can shoot quick and well, have high cap mags, won't go deaf apon firing, also the ammo is easily found.

[Boogyman]

Is this a trick question? <_<

[jumpluff]

Not at all Boogyman...I am interested in the group's thoughts on the ballistic advantages/disadvantages of the diminutive 22LR from a rifle barrel against the larger...but slower round from a handgun.

I understand that there are far better choices for self defense...but for academic purposes...I wanted to analyze this paring...as many folks have a 22 rifle about the house...and may have a handgun....(and often a shotgun...but lets discount that for the moment)....and if one of these folks were forced to defend themselves with what they had around....what would be their best choice and why.

I am specifically avoiding the size difference between the two weapons...the "bulky" factor.

So the scenario goes something like this....local troublemaker tries to break into house....occupant (who has never given much thought to self defense)...has a 22 rifle in the corner...and a .38/9mm handgun in the night stand....which should they grab to provide "negative reinforcement" to the local trouble maker? They are standing in a wide open kitchen...so the size of the "device" is irrelevant....only the ballistic potential is at issue.

p.s. this is the sort of weird thought that runs through my mind on a sleepless night at 3 in the morning! :wacko:

[Boogyman]

Ok, since ya put it like that...;)

I'd still choose the handgun in .38 or 9mm for various reasons, but ballistics in itself is not my main concern.

1. The .38 handgun has a higher impact energy, the intruder will feel the bullets hitting him before he would the .22.

2. The handgun makes a bigger boom and muzzle flash to add to the higher impact, thus making the intruder believe he is in serious trouble, as opposed to shrugging it off if he thinks it's just a .22 popping at him.

3. The handgun will do more immediate damage to the intruder, so if it doesn't kill him right away, it'll kill him faster than a .22 would, thus neutralizing him quicker.

4. If the intruder got too close, the handgun is easier to keep him from grabbing it, and easier to stick into his belly and keep pumping rounds into him if it came to a wrestling match. (so the size of the weapon IS relevant indoors)

5. The handgun will more likely kill him dead than the .22 would, so I don't have to worry about his side of the story later, or his lawyers trying to sue me or some B.S. like that if he lives.

Ballistics? Without getting too scientifically involved, I've seen too many groundhogs and armadillos crawling off towards their hole after being hit with a .22, not many move much with a 9mm hole in them.

Just my 5 cents. :D

[2rangers]

I pretty much agree w/ you, boogy, with the exception of #5. There are alot of variables at play here, like the type of bullet, shot placement, etc. A .22 from short range to the brain stem would kill faster than a hurried 9mm fmj to the knee, etc.
I would still go w/ the handgun for an in house intrusion, perhaps w/ a frangible bullet(?).
:sniper:

[Boogyman]

Yeah I see your point, 2rangers. I just edited my post to include my experience with groundhogs and such tho... plus, the bigger the hole, the more they bleed, I always say. :D

Another point is in a high adrenaline situation as described, many people would have a hard time keeping it together enough to shoot straight. If an intruder has a 9mm blasting at him, he is more likely to turn and run if you miss! :blink:

How many unexperienced, average folks as described in the scenario are gonna keep their cool enough to make a brain-stem shot? Better the 9mm to the knee, at least that would take a leg out from under him. Then stand over him and empty the clip into his fool head.

Killing someone is about so much more than ballistics alone...

[2rangers]

Oh, I agree, I was just playing devil's advocate, I guess. Brain stem at 200 from a concealed position is one thing, but cqb, go for center mass. And a pistol of at least .38 special/9mm makes a pretty big mess in the thorax.
:sniper:

[Boogyman]

Yup! :D

Center mass saves your a**!

[ryan_kalani]

Imagine catching one of these 40 cals center mass at 1140 fps and a 470 ft lb energy....

http://glarp.atk.com/2005_images/LE_2005/Federal/thumbnails/P45HSTExpanded.jpg

100% weight retention.

I would definatley stick with a common caliber (9mm, 40, or 45acp) handgun for home defense for ease of weapon retention and manuvering. It's very difficult to score a head shot in the dark and during any type of commotion. Some one did mention the 22s capability to quickly end a person life if you can score a head shot but the %s are low in this instance I believe.

[FatDaddy]

+1 on Boogy's post and would like to add:
#6 A center fire round is more likely to go boom than the rimfire in my experience. I've seen a lot of rimfire cartridges that had a good whack from the firing pin and not fire. I think this is just an inherent weakness of a rimfire cartridge.

[FatDaddy]

Ballistics? Without getting too scientifically involved, I've seen too many groundhogs and armadillos crawling off towards their hole after being hit with a .22, not many move much with a 9mm hole in them....:D

That's why I've recently somewhat retired my 22lr for this kind of work and replaced it with my Winchester 9422M 22mag with CCI hollow points.
Amazing round in my opinion. You can just feel and hear the impact difference at close range.:o

[adaman04]

Handgun all the way. 9mm, .357, .40, 45, take your pick.

[comeandtakeit]

For years my self defense weapon was a .22 bolt action rifle becuase it was the only weapon I had. Now that I have a 9MM pistol the .22 is in the safe. To me there's really no comparison. Big (or bigger) center-fire vs. small rimfire? Big center-fire wins all the way.

[josh]

The 22 is a last resort. At least you could beat the intruder to death with it if you miss. In my house there are a handful of different pistols to choose from but weh n this old house makes a weird noise it shouldnt I go to investigate with my 5 inch 1911. Simply because i do not need to aim it at close range. It points like an extension of my hand. I can point it as easily as my finger.
All my other pistols do not point quite as well. My 870 rem with a 20 inch barrel,my sks andm my mini 14 are all loaded and ready should something arise I cannot handle with my 1911. I dont even consider any of my 22's for defense.

I did in younger years when I only had 2 rifles consider my 94 winchester to be a valid form of home defense.

[craig]

I have though about home defense as well, but im not as educated about ballistics and what not, the thing I worry about most when think about discharging my weapons at an intruder is, where is the bullet going to go if I miss? So my opinion is that larger hand gun caliber such as .45 with some sort of home defense bullet (the type that disintegrate upon impact) would be most ideal. I wouldnt want to kill an innocent child a block away.
Sorry for the morbid thought,
Craig

[Zydeco76]

I will take the bait.

I would rather have the 10/22. Even though I have been practicing my butt off I am still not that great with a pistol. Anybody coud pick up a 10/22 and put 10 or 15 rounds in a face at 30 feet, inside 3 seconds. When SHTF I know I can pickup a carbine and drill 2 or 3 rounds right where I want em. When empty it makes an ok stick.

[Boogyman]

I will take the bait.

I would rather have the 10/22. Even though I have been practicing my butt off I am still not that great with a pistol. Anybody coud pick up a 10/22 and put 10 or 15 rounds in a face at 30 feet, inside 3 seconds. When SHTF I know I can pickup a carbine and drill 2 or 3 rounds right where I want em. When empty it makes an ok stick.

How do you know that?

You'd be suprised how hard it is to actually pull the trigger on a human being the first time, especially if they are staring you in the face from a few feet away. It's easier at a distance.

In a high stress situation like that you might be better off rushing up close and sticking your pistol right up against his body and start pumping rounds. He wouldn't expect that! :blink:

[aloharover]

Very interesting.
Yes a .22 can kill someone. Heck, #2 pencil can end someone's life in the blink of an eye if used properly but am I going to rely on it for self defence... No.
Another very good consideration is brought up by Craig. If I miss where will the round go. I am not worried about the kid a block away but the two right down the hall.
So I want something that will:
A. put a hurting on someone no matter where I hit them.
B. something that won't over penetrate.
The .22 would not be my first choice for self defense because it fails A.
Using a specific load in a larger caliber weapon will work for both A & B.

Just about any caliber handgun will cause your ears to ring if fired in an enclosed space. If you are serious about getting into a firing situation inside the home you should consider paying the tax and getting a suppressor.

The military and many other folks that carry pistols as part of their job are moving away from the 9mm because it doesn't always put the target down. .40 and .45 are becoming more and more prevalent. I think it's funny that with how far technology has brought us, many within the SOF community, as well as law enforcement are choosing the 1911.

Having said that the most important thing about a self defense weapon is being comfortable and knowledgeable in its use. Find something that fits the hand and points naturally and then get it in the largest caliber you are comfortable shooting. If you wince everytime you squeeze the trigger on a .44 mag with a 3" barrel then that should NOT be your sd choice. If it ends up being a .22 Ruger M-II fine.

If you are only worried about self defense within the confines of your home things are actually pretty easy. You know the layout. You can discuss and work out where everyone goes to in an emergency. You can establish a defense in depth and have multiple alternative weapons and locations.

Thats not a choice when you are anywhere else. Between work and play most folks spend more then half of their time outside of the home. Self defence is more then what you keep under your pillow at night.
Determine what will best fit your needs. And then start practicing.

If you plan on relying on something for your own safety you need to be able to operate it safely, load, unload, clear a stoppage on an auto, etc all while blind folded. You should go out one afternoon and put 500 rds through it. Practice one handed and two handed, standing, walking, sitting, and kneeling. You should be able to hit the target center mass in all of these conditions with the target anywhere from 2 feet away to 30 feet away. Know where your weapon points. Hold your weapon pointed at the ground, safety on, about ten feet from the target. Close your eyes and keeping your eyes closed put three rounds into the target. Practice shooting with out looking down the sights. If you will carry, then you need to practice drawing and firing. Engaging the target as quickly as possible. If you carry concealed, practice with a jacket on, if you live in a cold environment practice drawing with gloves on. Practice with multiple targets. place three extremely close together. Paint the head on each a different color. Have a friend yell out the color of the bad target, draw and engage. Then change and have them call out the friendly and engage the other two. If possible you need to practice low light situations and engaging moving targets. If you are used to casual slow paced shooting at a piece of paper, the first time you go to engage something and its running you will hesitate, mind will get scrambled and you will miss by a mile. If they are running at you its even worse.

[SPARTEN117]

:rolleyes: You guys are so old-fashioned 22. 45. 38. 9mm 357mag what you really need is a bag full of those mini grenades http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_6_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824CIUS):D

[Scully]

:rolleyes: You guys are so old-fashioned 22. 45. 38. 9mm 357mag what you really need is a bag full of those mini grenades http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_6_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824CIUS):D

I looked on Ebay and couldn't find any. Where did you get yours.

[Zydeco76]

Very interesting.
Yes a .22 can kill someone. Heck, #2 pencil can end someone's life in the blink of an eye if used properly but am I going to rely on it for self defence... No.
Another very good consideration is brought up by Craig. If I miss where will the round go. I am not worried about the kid a block away but the two right down the hall.
So I want something that will:
A. put a hurting on someone no matter where I hit them.
B. something that won't over penetrate.
The .22 would not be my first choice for self defense because it fails A.
Using a specific load in a larger caliber weapon will work for both A & B.

Just about any caliber handgun will cause your ears to ring if fired in an enclosed space. If you are serious about getting into a firing situation inside the home you should consider paying the tax and getting a suppressor.

The military and many other folks that carry pistols as part of their job are moving away from the 9mm because it doesn't always put the target down. .40 and .45 are becoming more and more prevalent. I think it's funny that with how far technology has brought us, many within the SOF community, as well as law enforcement are choosing the 1911.

Having said that the most important thing about a self defense weapon is being comfortable and knowledgeable in its use. Find something that fits the hand and points naturally and then get it in the largest caliber you are comfortable shooting. If you wince everytime you squeeze the trigger on a .44 mag with a 3" barrel then that should NOT be your sd choice. If it ends up being a .22 Ruger M-II fine.

If you are only worried about self defense within the confines of your home things are actually pretty easy. You know the layout. You can discuss and work out where everyone goes to in an emergency. You can establish a defense in depth and have multiple alternative weapons and locations.

Thats not a choice when you are anywhere else. Between work and play most folks spend more then half of their time outside of the home. Self defence is more then what you keep under your pillow at night.
Determine what will best fit your needs. And then start practicing.

If you plan on relying on something for your own safety you need to be able to operate it safely, load, unload, clear a stoppage on an auto, etc all while blind folded. You should go out one afternoon and put 500 rds through it. Practice one handed and two handed, standing, walking, sitting, and kneeling. You should be able to hit the target center mass in all of these conditions with the target anywhere from 2 feet away to 30 feet away. Know where your weapon points. Hold your weapon pointed at the ground, safety on, about ten feet from the target. Close your eyes and keeping your eyes closed put three rounds into the target. Practice shooting with out looking down the sights. If you will carry, then you need to practice drawing and firing. Engaging the target as quickly as possible. If you carry concealed, practice with a jacket on, if you live in a cold environment practice drawing with gloves on. Practice with multiple targets. place three extremely close together. Paint the head on each a different color. Have a friend yell out the color of the bad target, draw and engage. Then change and have them call out the friendly and engage the other two. If possible you need to practice low light situations and engaging moving targets. If you are used to casual slow paced shooting at a piece of paper, the first time you go to engage something and its running you will hesitate, mind will get scrambled and you will miss by a mile. If they are running at you its even worse.

There is some damned good advice here. Especially the part about learning to shoot without the sights. Thats why I went with the .22 for this discussion. I have very little faith in a 9mm handgun. To me it has to be a cns shot either way. I personally use a shotgun when things go bump in the night. A good torso hit may not be imediately faital with a guage but it will definately set them back. Three fast ones will stop anybody. Shooting skeet is awsome practice for aiming at moving targets and fast followup shots. It also works well as a club.
I feel practice and proper mindset is far more important than what type of weapon you use. Infact I have a very small home. If an intruder were already inside my home I would be just as likely to grab a sword. I figure a naked 250lbs 5'6 man screaming like mad and swinging a sword should scare anybody away. The damage that I could do with a sword at close range is far better than any common firearm. If the badguy has body armor on the sword will go right through it. I don't have to worry about over penetration etc... Obviously the situation will dictate my response.

[Boogyman]

Many people tend to over-intellectualize using deadly force, and get too involved in the technology too.

The bottom line is: It's your MIND that must be prepared to kill.

No matter what weapon you use, unless you are prepared to take that giant step and DECIDE to kill someone, you will be helpless.

One point stressed in Close-Quarter-Combat is DO NOT look into your opponent's eyes. It may cause you to hesitate. You CANNOT have any empathy for the person you intend to kill.

Anybody that dismisses this point as secondary or irrelevant will not be prepared when the time comes.

[Mannlicher]

I think the rifle might prove unwieldy, tucked into your belt.

[gunrun45]

I'd go with my handgun, any handgun, even in 22 vs the 22 rifle. Long arm retention in close quarters is chalenging for those who do not train regularly with the concepts.

[TPW]

I like my Glock, Model 23 with Hi Cap Mags........;)

[SPARTEN117]

I vote for an .... AT4:cannon:
if that dont work you got bigger problems:blink:

[FatDaddy]

This is what happens when you store your revolver too close to your self defense shotgun in the gunsafe...http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=4410TKR-2SS&category=Revolver.

This would solve the overpenetration problem and at close range would be VERY messy.

[SPARTEN117]

ok I found somthing for you bigger problemshttp://www.sfu.ca/casr/fisher9-2.jpg
this should take care of any and all homeinvasions. and you will all so have the syco facter reason being is, if this is what you put on your lawn god knows what you have inside you house.:D

[Dorkface]

ok I found somthing for you bigger problemshttp://www.sfu.ca/casr/fisher9-2.jpg
this should take care of any and all homeinvasions. and you will all so have the syco facter reason being is, if this is what you put on your lawn god knows what you have inside you house.:D

"The most dangerous thing on the battlefeild is ONE well placed shot. " Carlos Hathcock. (I cant remember the quote exactly but thats really close)

[Dorkface]

Many people tend to over-intellectualize using deadly force, and get too involved in the technology too.

The bottom line is: It's your MIND that must be prepared to kill.

No matter what weapon you use, unless you are prepared to take that giant step and DECIDE to kill someone, you will be helpless.

One point stressed in Close-Quarter-Combat is DO NOT look into your opponent's eyes. It may cause you to hesitate. You CANNOT have any empathy for the person you intend to kill.

Anybody that dismisses this point as secondary or irrelevant will not be prepared when the time comes.

Agreed. But a person MUST decide this ahead of time. If they are one of those people who say "I'd have to wait until I was in the situation to see what I would do" is only putting themselves in greater danger because they will hesitate at a key moment which could get them killed.

[ryan_kalani]

This is what happens when you store your revolver too close to your self defense shotgun in the gunsafe...http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=4410TKR-2SS&category=Revolver.

This would solve the overpenetration problem and at close range would be VERY messy.
that's a CRAZY handgun man!

[Boogyman]

Agreed. But a person MUST decide this ahead of time. If they are one of those people who say "I'd have to wait until I was in the situation to see what I would do" is only putting themselves in greater danger because they will hesitate at a key moment which could get them killed.

Exactly, Dorkface.

But notice how people are evading this point, even though it is the most important preperation to self-defense of all?

Things to consider ahead of time are many and varied. Just a few:

1. Will I have the guts to pull the trigger when the time comes?

2. Am I willing to risk going to prison to protect myself and my family?

3. What EXACTLY are the laws and precedents in my state concerning the use of deadly force in home defense?

4. Can I handle the emotional consequences of taking a human life?

This last point is hard to know until it happens. It's easy to just say "I'd have no problem killing a scumbag who breaks into my house", but actually doing it is much more complex and profound than people think, especially if that "scumbag" lying on your floor dead turns out to be someone you know, or some 12-year-old kid, or some guy with a family of his own who just made the wrong decision.

You can't be thinking of that sh*t in the split-second you will have to live or die. It takes a hardened heart to kill.

"Prepare your mind and your body will follow."

[FatDaddy]

Good points Boogy. It's something most folks don't consider until it happens to them. It's something that you as a gun owner have to come to grips with. Because if the BG sees you things will escalate very quickly and it's very doubtful that he will reciprocate any hesitation. You have to assume that somone who breaks into your home while you are there is prepared to kill you.

[TPW]

Many good and not so good points have been made. The question is, how many of you actually know when, or when you cannot, use deadly physical force in any situation, at home or elsewhere? Knowing this important information according to your state of residence, will give you the preparedness and confidence to take the next step.

[cdevon1200]

ask a criminal what it felt like getting shot 10 time with a .22, and he will say"it hurt like hell!"
ask another criminal what it felt like to get shot one time with a .45 and you wont get a responce because he is dead!
imho, :2guns:

[elokoman]

The handgun in a reasonable caliber is going to have more potential to take out the bad guy than a .22. The FBI criteria for penetration may not be the only criteria to consider, however it is worth thinking about. A lot of people have been killed with .22's, they can be deadly, but there is a good reason why law enforcement packs sidearms in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. You won't see law enforcement packin' a .22.

Personally I like a .357 revolver, because my wife has a hard time racking the slide on a pistol. The revolver is simple to operate and goes bang every time. I keep .38 special +Ps on the nightstand because they are adequate and she can handle the recoil. If I have to look for whatever made the bump noise in the night, an intermittent flashlight in one hand and a revolver in the other is how I would approach the issue. Use a super-bright light and hold it off to one side so that it is less likley to draw fire to your exact position.

[gaweidert]

I have a few things around the house. A Remington 870 shotgun with a 20" barrel. A Hi-Point 9mm carbine and an AR with lHornady TAP oaded mags nearby. No kids in the house to worry about. There all out and I can worry about them other ways.

A few years ago I traded my Mini-14 ss Ranch in on a Garand. I miss it a lot and someday will have to get another one. I should have just dug deeper into my pockets.

My first choice would be a pistol, but I don't have a permit to own one in New York. So my next best is the shotgun an 00 buckshot. I'd love to let some of my milsurps speak in anger in that situation, but I really don't want to have to be repairing walls at my house and the neighbors too. Of course there is always the old fashioed bayonet charge. I can see it now, ok honey, BAYONETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love that scene from Gettysburg. Those guys who did that were better men than I wil ever be.

[texasrick]

Guess it all depends on exactly what sort of threat you are confronted with. I often step out on the back porch to find a visious looking rabbit eyeing me with an obvious intent to charge (I think the rabbit community has declared war on me....they just keep coming).

A well placed .22LR seems to change their minds quite well (and reduces the food budget at the same time).

For anything larger and particularly for human targets........go with the handgun. My choice is a 1911 in .45acp, but anything from 9mm on up is much better than any .22LR (the bigger the better is a good rule of thumb)

Note: good recipies for BBQ people are hard to find so the food budget may not be reduced. Rabbits are much more commonly encountered and more practical so keep the .22 handy too.

[Bill]

I pretty much agree w/ you, boogy, with the exception of #5. There are alot of variables at play here, like the type of bullet, shot placement, etc. A .22 from short range to the brain stem would kill faster than a hurried 9mm fmj to the knee, etc.
I would still go w/ the handgun for an in house intrusion, perhaps w/ a frangible bullet(?).
:sniper:


I can't think of one body part where a .22 from a rifle, at any "home defense" range is going to be a better "man stopper" than the same location hit with a typical minimal (9mm? .38?) defensive handgun round.

[DDG89]

I would use what was available to me at the time. If the only weapon I have was a 22lr then it would have to do. But, I would rather use my Model 10 with +p 158 gr swc HP. Gonna update that soon with either a 40s&w or 45.