View Full Version : AR-15 vs. Mini-14
DeadReckoning
03-13-2006, 07:22
I have read discussions like this for years. Now that I am a member I’m starting this one to try and objectively resolve this matter. Please no bashing lets just deal with the facts. I like both weapons, and have extensively shot then both. I personally favor the Mini 14.
Let’s try and stick to these factors when considering these two rifles.
(Also lets try and stick with the most current AR's & Mini's .223 5.56)
1) Cost
2) Functionality
3) Practicality
4) Performance
5) Reliability
6) Accessories
7) Factory vs. Modded
Here is my Ruger Mini 14 (196 series):
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=50777
I think this is a great topic. I've been doing some of research on it. I found this.
http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/200203-AR-15_vs_Mini-14.pdf
very informative. It's hard to get unbiased opinions from anyone. Most of the Ar crowd will put down most anything other than Ar's and the mini crowd will do the same. Reasons for going with the either are pretty specific to the user. I like the mini because it looks less like an "EVIL BLACK GUN" as some douche bags see the Ar's. I personally think that in a S.H.T.F situation I'd rather have an AK than anything else. BUT I feel you may be seen by other civi's and possibly the authority's as some kind of a threat, I think this includes the AR. To most gun illiterate\ignorant they instill fear. I think the wood stocked mini wouldn't be so threatening and still be just as effective. Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions......
ghostrider
03-13-2006, 08:36
1) Cost You can buy a Mini 14 and 2000 rounds of ammo for what a reliable AR costs. Or rebarrel your Mini for the same price as an AR, which makes that one a wash. If Ruger would build a slightly heavier barrel, like they did with the 10/22, for $100 more, it would tilt the scales to the Ruger. Tie
2) Functionality 90% of self-loading weapon problems are due to magazines. There are reliable mags out there for both, and some real junk. The worst Mini 14 mags are about as reliable as the old aluminum 30 round Adventure Line M16 mags. Tie
3) Practicality If you ever plan to, or do anything other than carry a rifle to the range in a full-size pick-up, a folding stock is the handiest thing they ever put on a rifle. Fold it, sling it across your back, and you can drag a deer, climb a tree stand, work, anything, and your rifle is always there. TSHTF, sling it across your back, roll it in your sleeping bag, you'll have it long after the NO PD takes all the other guy's guns. Mini
4) Performance The AR has evolved to a heavier barrel design for the M855 cartridge. It actually gave away the 5.56 mm cartridge's lethality, the M193 bullet would yaw in the bad guy, and break in half at the cannelure. With a level playing field, a < $1000 AR, and ball ammo, most ARs will shoot in the 2 to 2.5" range at 100 meters, just like most Minis. Most $500 ARs will shoot just like the lighter barrel Minis. I know I'll get flamed for that, but the flamers just need to get some ball ammo and go to the range. I've seen about 3 or 400,000 rounds go down range out of those things. Tie
5) Reliability Bill Ruger worked as an engineer on the M1 Carbine at Springfield Armory during WWII. The self cleaning gas system with the piston in the handguards is infinitely more reliable then the Stoner column of gas that gums up your bolt carrier. Mini
6) Accessories The AR has evolved over the last 20 years to support Aimpoint, lasers, and flashlights. The AR has more junk that can be hung on it. AR
7) Factory vs. Modded Any AR has the two major design flaws, the buffer and spring in the stock, that precludes a folding stock, and the gas system. A heavy barrel Mini 14 in 6mm/.223 would mitigate all of the platform/ cartridge issues. MINI
BlackOps
03-13-2006, 09:14
1) Cost You can buy a Mini 14 and 2000 rounds of ammo for what a reliable AR costs. Or rebarrel your Mini for the same price as an AR, which makes that one a wash. If Ruger would build a slightly heavier barrel, like they did with the 10/22, for $100 more, it would tilt the scales to the Ruger. Tie
2) Functionality 90% of self-loading weapon problems are due to magazines. There are reliable mags out there for both, and some real junk. The worst Mini 14 mags are about as reliable as the old aluminum 30 round Adventure Line M16 mags. Tie
3) Practicality If you ever plan to, or do anything other than carry a rifle to the range in a full-size pick-up, a folding stock is the handiest thing they ever put on a rifle. Fold it, sling it across your back, and you can drag a deer, climb a tree stand, work, anything, and your rifle is always there. TSHTF, sling it across your back, roll it in your sleeping bag, you'll have it long after the NO PD takes all the other guy's guns. Mini
4) Performance The AR has evolved to a heavier barrel design for the M855 cartridge. It actually gave away the 5.56 mm cartridge's lethality, the M193 bullet would yaw in the bad guy, and break in half at the cannelure. With a level playing field, a < $1000 AR, and ball ammo, most ARs will shoot in the 2 to 2.5" range at 100 meters, just like most Minis. Most $500 ARs will shoot just like the lighter barrel Minis. I know I'll get flamed for that, but the flamers just need to get some ball ammo and go to the range. I've seen about 3 or 400,000 rounds go down range out of those things. Tie
5) Reliability Bill Ruger worked as an engineer on the M1 Carbine at Springfield Armory during WWII. The self cleaning gas system with the piston in the handguards is infinitely more reliable then the Stoner column of gas that gums up your bolt carrier. Mini
6) Accessories The AR has evolved over the last 20 years to support Aimpoint, lasers, and flashlights. The AR has more junk that can be hung on it. AR
7) Factory vs. Modded Any AR has the two major design flaws, the buffer and spring in the stock, that precludes a folding stock, and the gas system. A heavy barrel Mini 14 in 6mm/.223 would mitigate all of the platform/ cartridge issues. MINI
Way to pick and choose what areas to compare instead of including all other aspects of these weapons. I thought this was an objective discusison not a biased one.
You can`t really compare the 2 rifles, it`s like comparing potatoes and rice= 2 totally different things. They have both their advantages and disadvantages and they`re both fun.
A $ 600 DPMS sweet 16 w. bull barrel will be just as accurate as a rebarreled mini (about 600 bucks for the mini and $ 800 for heavy barrel, bedding and triggerjob), as for reliability and ruggedness, you can`t beat the out of the box mini.
With a level playing field, a < $1000 AR, and ball ammo, most ARs will shoot in the 2 to 2.5" range at 100 meters
I`ve tried different types of ammo with the standard mini and best I could get were 3.5" groups, worst about 10".
Who cares? A gun is like any other personal item. If you like a particular model buy and enjoy it. It doesn't matter what someone else thinks of it!!!
ghostrider
03-13-2006, 12:02
Way to pick and choose what areas to compare instead of including all other aspects of these weapons. I thought this was an objective discusison not a biased one.
Cost, Functionality, Practicality, Performance, Reliability are probably the most important five. The AR is more easily changed to a new caliber, two pins, five hundred dollars, you can shoot 9mm through it.
Is its demand based on a real market, or is it a niche or price point driving the demand. The mini has a niche in the farmer/ rancher crowd, and the only has $400 to spend crowd. The AR, at $800 to $1200 + for a gun built with mil-spec parts, is in the price range of the M1A, and .308 is just as cheap.
Ruggedness. The AR/M16 has a couple of fatal flaws, that my experience with them has shown me. The aluminum threads in the rear of the receiver where the buttstock screws in are extremely thin, making the weapon extremely fragile, it doesn't even take a good buttstroke to render your weapon useless. The second is double feeds. If your mag ever bobbles and feeds two rounds, there is enough room between the bolt carrier and the top of the receiver for the base of the round to fit. Since the charging handle is not part of the bolt, it will not push the bolt forward or backwards. It can be cleared, but it takes time, something you don't have when somebody's shooting back. Any GI that spent a lot of time on the range has seen that one several times.
ghostrider
03-13-2006, 12:04
Who cares? A gun is like any other personal item. If you like a particular model buy and enjoy it. It doesn't matter what someone else thinks of it!!!
Entirely correct, buy what you like, and shoot it. But then, we wouldn't have as much fun discussing it, would we. :lol:
DeadReckoning
03-13-2006, 12:34
How can you say you can’t compare these two rifles? They are the same caliber. They are both semi automatic and except high capacity magazines. They both have the ability to except a wide range of accessories. They are both used in the same types of applications. They are both gas powered spring operated. What criteria do two rifles have to meet to be compared (two weapons made by the same company in the same caliber)? I believe your statement is kind of a copout for someone who isn’t interested in find out what the real factual differences are. Also I know it doesn’t matter what someone thinks of your rifle which ever one you may prefer. I am just trying to compare two different rifles and find the pros and cons in each to better educate those who are willing to learn. There are many misconceptions when it comes to these to rifles and I want to squash them all. A lot of people are in the dark when it comes to there knowledge of these two rifles and I want to help set the record straight. I would be more than happy to discuss any aspect of these two weapons to anyone who would like to pose a question. I’m very familiar with both and have learned a lot about them through experience, research, and first hand knowledge.
My two cents worth:
These rifles are similar but not identical. They shoot similar rounds, mini's are marked .223 and AR's are marked 5.56. Supposedly these are different cartridges. They are similar but different.
Both use hi cap mags-most mini mags are steel, steel is better than aluminum which is used in 'most' AR mags.
The AR's biggest problems is the tight clearances in the bolt/chamber lock up. Tight means better....sometimes. The mini is not as tight or picky in this area, this is better....sometimes. If you go back and dig out some old info about the problems in Nam w/AR, most of the problems point to powder. What I have read is that the powder used at first was old. It had been stored with calcium carbonate to absorb any moisture, calcium carbonate is "dirt" when mixed with powder and fired==>JAMS!
The mini is cheaper when new (used the price is very close in this area) than the AR. The AR has better inherent accuracy. Spend the money to equalize price and the mini shoots as well.
Repair parts are easier to find for the AR than the mini.
The AR is black and scary-my mini's are all black and scare my Beamation (half beagle and half dalmation), the German Shepard doesn't care. I take the wood off and go to synthetic on my mini's because synthetic's hold up better. If I want people to like my guns I'll carry a lever action, all
non-believers think you are Roy Rogers or Gene Autry then.
I like the collapsible stock better than a folder because I shoot long guns left handed. Shoot handguns right handed. My DI loved that, and oh yeah, I qualified expert and he was a sharpshooter. I have one BC folder w/AR collapsible stock and am going to convert one or two more for some of the mini's.
What do I have, six Mini 14's, one Mini 30 and four AR 15's-two 20" and two 16" What do I want if the feces contacts the westinghouse, for the non PC, that is when the SHTF. Any one of them will do, along with 10-15 mags and all of the ammo I can hump. Second choice would be a Ruger 10/22M or Marlin 922, You can carry a lot more 22 mag ammo than 223.
This brings up a question that I've wondered about since finding this web site, why do most of us have mini's or AR's-->when the SHTF or plinking. A 22 makes a better plinker so I guess that means for when the SHTF.
Semper Fi
good comparison, but as always, bashed from all sides.
adaman04
03-13-2006, 16:53
I have never been an AR fan until recently. I plan on buying one. I see the advantages and disadvantages of both. The main disadvantage of the Mini is accuracy for me. Mags have become less of a problem since the end of the idiotic AWB. The AR is quite a bit more expensive and to me its advantages are cheap mags everywhere and accuracy.
2rangers
03-13-2006, 17:21
It's really simple. Buy both. I did. And I'm loving it!
The only fair comparison is that they both (mini14, standard AR)are chambered for a similar cartridge.
:sniper:
jumpluff
03-13-2006, 18:29
This is more of a question....than a critique. I have never owned...or shot an AR. I have countless thousands of rounds through my Minis. I have no military service experience. Every time I have pondered purchasing an AR...just to see what one is like....I get cold feet when I think about cleaning it. Just looking at an AR manual/cleaning instructions gives me hives. I can literally disassemble and reassemble a 14 with my eyes closed...because I have done it so many times. It is a piece of cake to clean...no small parts to lose. So I pose to you who have great experience with both: how do the two stack up in terms of maintanence issues?<_<
FatDaddy
03-13-2006, 18:29
Or buy both and trade them in on a M-14.:lol:
2rangers
03-13-2006, 18:32
I like the way you think, fatdaddy!!
BlackOps
03-13-2006, 19:50
AR / M4 maintenance is cake. Breaking it down is easily and so is cleaning it. After doing it once you'll see it isnt complicated at all. I could break mine down with my eyse closed.
http://i2.tinypic.com/rc6alv.jpg
Dorkface
03-13-2006, 20:37
I went with the mini for a couple of reasons. Its very very similar to the M1 Garand and M-14 gas system which is more then proven. It is stone cold reliable no matter how dirty it is (good mags are important in any weapon. Even my M-14 will fail with crap mags... which is about the only thing that will stop it. :) ). I like that the mini has a handle that can clear just about any kind of jam. An its plenty accurate and can be made even more so for either free or next to nothing from the info on this board.
Black and scary? My mini is now :D . If you wanna know more check out my thread in the gallery. State/local law might make the choice for you.
.223 or 5.56? Doesn't matter both the mini and AR shoot both.
High caps? Both have them. Good and bad.
Cost? I dont know for sure about ARs but I know you can find deals on minis. I got mine with wood and BC folder, Ultra Dot red dot, Assault systems bag, and about a dozen 30rds for a little over $400. As with everything if you have the time to look around you can find a good deal on either I would bet.
Ammo? I know a mini will eat anything but I dont know about an AR.
Dorkface
03-13-2006, 20:39
I forgot to add that as far as accessories go the AR wins hands down since the military use them. However there are still decent selection for the mini and some simple DIY things for some others.
But isn't the AR considered a rifle and the Mini considered a carbine? Rifles are more accurate than carbines I've read. And ARs cost twice as much as Minis. I can only dream about either gun because I don't owm an AR nor a Mini but I have compared the two and price is why I'd choose a Mini over an AR but the AR is probably a more capable gun.
I have owned both. I currently own niether. I am planning on buying another Mini-14 soon however. I will not ever own another AR. Yes, the AR is pretty easy to break down for cleaning, but it does have a lot of little bitty pieces that are easy to lose(ask me how I know). The Mini doesn't have that problem and it is easy to break down for cleaning as well. It is also easier to clean, since it doesn't "crap where it eats" like an AR. It can be a real chore to remove all the fouling from an AR's action after a lot of shooting. The AR is also very sensitive to over or under lubrication. If you do not lube it properly it will jam. The Mini doesn't care. I have fired Mini's dry, with no lube, and they still functioned perfectly(not reccommended). If you try that with an AR it will jam(again, not reccommended). Yes, an out of the box AR will typically be more accurate than an out of the box Mini. If you like to shoot itty bitty groups on paper, then you might like an AR better. For me, I don't care. I'm more interested in practical accuracy, not intrinsic accuracy. For me the Mini has better practical, real world, field accuracy because it feels better to me.
That last part is the most subjective. For me an AR feels clumsy, uncomfortable, and cheap. I also can't stand that annoying "sproing" sound the buffer spring makes with every shot. A Mini feels "right" to me. It feels like a real rifle, and I like that its action is very similar to my 2 favorite rifles of all time, the M1 Garand and the M14. As far as add on accessories, the AR has more. If that matters to you then an AR would probably be a better choice. I don't care, because I don't need all that "tactical" garbage. I prefer to keep all my guns stock, or pretty close to it. I've never felt handicapped in the least by not having all that "super ninja, high speed, low drag, tactical" crap hanging off my weapons. I prefer to adhere to the K.I.S.S.(Keep It Simple, Stupid) principle. So for me, and my uses, I prefer the Mini-14.
gunrun45
03-14-2006, 00:05
Deadreckoning: This is one of those topics that people just can't talk about objectively. Its kinda like Chevy vs Ford. eventually you get those in the group who just start sticking their tongue's out and saying "mine's better than yours".
Personally I find the following as I have owned 3 AR's in various configuartions, a true M4 (classIII) and 3 mini's (as well as several others).
I have seen both with manufacture errors (everyone is human). I have seen both jam although the ruger not so much. I shoot my trick dept issue M4 and personal tac AR at work becasue that's what they make me shoot. Yes I love the interchangeable parts but the thing is a pain to clean thoroughly and it jams when subjected to extremes (mud, sand, clay, snow, etc...). With a proper folding stock (ie buttler creek), forward pistol grip and tac light set-up I truely prefer the mini when I hit the mud.
If I'm kicking doors I prefer the intense firepower and quicker mag changes of the ar/m4 style. Then again I have never owned or shot a class III ruger. I also like the things I've seen with the 50 bewolf (sp?) cartridge upper and shear awsome penetration in car bodies :)
I believe the AR is more accurate out of the box due to prodruction practices at ruger, but these can easily be fixed as mentioned eslewhere on this board with minor expense.
AR/M4's can be made more user friendly with the addition of a gas piston upper that keeps the carbon and gas out of the action but these are VERY costly. I believe in general the AR/M4 has more options and accessories if that's your bag.
It boils down to this. I carry the AR/m4 at work becasue they won't let me carry anything else and it does many things well.
I carry my mini-14 in my POV becasue it works 100% of the time after I neglect it like crazy. The mini replaced my 45-70 guide gun :) but only because I spend more time in urban areas now and don't want to worry so much about over-penetration. I believe in being prepaired, knowing your needs and adapting to your environement.
Anybody who thinks the AR is easy to clean has never had one jam while being fired upon. Yes they are easy to clean when sitting at home or at the range. You can even get quick when racing eachother in cleaning contests. But loosing a firing pin retaining pin or bolt assembly in the mud when trying to free the mechanism SUCKS. Trust me and read my signature at the bottom! ( I now carry a spare slide assembly in a zippy bag) There is a reason why some contractors in Iraq carry McCormick triggers in zippy bags. You can drop them out (another pain but better than no long gun) and put another in to get back in the fight.
I've never had this problem with my mini and do not feel the need to carry around spare parts for it in my turn out gear.
The 223 round is good for urban environments when compared to most common rifle rounds due to overpenetration concerns. If I worked somewhere more remote I'd opt for a M14 (16in) and call it good. I understand the CA DEPT of Fish and Game has them now and loves them.
See there deadreckoning, I ended up rambling on forever and still didn't answer the debate. By the way I'm a Chevy guy :) I'll check back in a few days and see if you guys have figured this one out for me yet.
DeadReckoning
03-14-2006, 09:40
Cleaning and breaking down an ar-15 is just as easy as an mini 14 if you are at home or somewhere where you don’t have to rush. If you are in a hostile environment taking down an ar-15 is not something to look forward to for these two reasons.
1) The hand guard is tight and has to be stood up vertically and requires considerable force to remove.
2) There are many more very small moving parts in an ar-15.
The mini 14 is very simple to breakdown and the smallest part you have to deal with is the gas bushing, which is roughly the size of a penny.
When I was in the Army we had two qualify with M16A2. We were given 40 rounds and had to shoot 40 pop up silhouette targets 2 at a time. I qualified as a sharpshooter instead of a expert because I had a jam during my qualification. As a result of the malfunction I had to eject 1 round that I could never get back and missed two targets due to the time it took to perform S.P.O.R.T.S. on the rifle.
Everyone knows the factory Ar-15 shoots tighter groups than the factory Mini 14 because of the thin crap barrel Ruger uses. If you spend about $450.00 on a Mini 14 and spend another $350.00 on a really good bull barrel you have spent 800.00. If you spend another $100.00 on a nice pistol grip synthetic stock you have spent $900.00. If you spend another $100.00 on a recoil buffer and other minor accessories you have spent $1000.00 which is the average going price for a new Ar-15 M4. So you see if you modify the Mini-14 to equal the price of the Ar-15 you have a weapon that shoot as good as if not better than Ar-15. Not to mention it will be more reliable do to its loose action and self cleaning bolt. Imagine if Ruger sold there rifles in the configuration that I just mentioned from the start. Don't you think it would have received more attention in the Law Enforcement and Military circles? I kind of think people like Ar-15 because they are the rifles everyone sees when they watch movies and play video games, ect... If the Mini 14 had been manufactured in the way I mentioned before I think that the ar-15 would have had a run for there money when being chosen by different governments as a service rifle. Especial since it took so much convincing on the part of the US Government to change from the proven Garand style rifles to the ar-15 type rifles.
Just a side note the AR-15 is the only service weapon in the world that comes standard with a forward assist. What’s that saying?
I think the Ar-15 is a great weapon and would serve law enforcement agency’s better than the mini 14 since they aren’t getting their rifles as dirty. But when it comes to the battle field I don’t want to be stuck with a rifle that has such a tight chamber a small amount of dirt will render it useless. Not to mention the gas that recycled into firing chamber that gets it dirty fast.
The Ak47 has a similar style action as the Mini 14 and variations of that weapon have been around since 1947, and is still the most produced service rifle in the world. Sometimes newer doesn’t mean better. Sometimes the cooler looking or more menacing looking weapon doesn’t mean more deadly.
Basically I prefer a Modified Mini-14 for the same price as a factory Ar-15 because it will shoot the same if not better. Once you have eliminated accuracy problems from the equation it comes down to reliability, which almost everyone agrees the Mini -14 is superior in that aspect for the reasons I have stated above. There is no modification for the AR-15 that I know of that will increase the reliablity of the action.
Also who ever as trouble finding Mini-14 accessories isn’t looking very hard. The only accessory I can’t find for the Mini 14 that the Ar-15 has is a forward vertical grip. And yes you can get a telescoping stock for the Mini 14 you can find a link to it in this forum, all you need is the adapter.
Just because the military uses the ar-15 doesn’t mean there are more accessories. If you have been in the military you know the only accessories you get with your M16 is a bayonet, mags, and ammo.
astronomer
03-14-2006, 09:58
The Mini 14 is rugged an reliable, the only two problems are the light barrel an the aftermarket magazines, you just about have to use factory magazines for 100% reliable, an the light barrel that gets very hot . down here in Louisiana Summers are very hot to start with , run A thirty rounds through one an see how super hot the barrel gets. but all in all I still like my mini 14 . as for as the AR goes don't own one right now, maybe in the future.
DeadReckoning
03-14-2006, 10:14
I buy 30 round blued magazines for $15.00 a piece new. They do not malfunction anymore than any other mags. Why are so many people having a hard time finding cheap reliable mags for the Mini 14?
astronomer
03-15-2006, 08:43
DeadReckoning if you don't mine me asking, what brand are these $15.00 mags? The other Question you asked, man I don't know, I wish I had the answer. for one reason, just before the AWB 1994 these companies got wind of the band comeing an they started produceing them full speed running 24 hours A day an the Quality control went down. I never had any luck with all the other brands, except PMI an ProMag , PMI was hard to insert because they were A little wider(thicker) than the Factory mags, an the promags was ok but there was allways A few that didn't fit tight. But this was back in the days of the band, I haven't bought any since the band is gone, maybe there better made now like ProMag. this magazine problem an the thin barrel are downside of the mini 14 that I here peoples talked over the years, if ruger would have just put A little heavier barrel on the mini they would have picked up A lot more sales, I know boys that got disgusted an went over to the AR family. but I still think the mini is A fine rifle, I like my mini 14 an would buy another one if I had the extra money. it's something about the mini that you don't won't to let go.
FatDaddy
03-15-2006, 19:48
I buy 30 round blued magazines for $15.00 a piece new. They do not malfunction anymore than any other mags. Why are so many people having a hard time finding cheap reliable mags for the Mini 14?
My 30rd aftermarket is perfect. I bought a 20 rdr from Cheaper than Dirt (cheap) that is just about useless. My brother bought one on the same order and it works fine. Aftermarket seems to be hit or miss IMO.
Mannlicher
03-18-2006, 17:34
Politics aside, there just has to be some practical reasons why no country in the world (other than maybe Bahama or some podunk place like that) issues the Mini-14 to their troops.
I sure like my Minis, but they are not battle rifles.
DeadReckoning
03-19-2006, 11:23
Politics aside, there just has to be some practical reasons why no country in the world (other than maybe Bahama or some podunk place like that) issues the Mini-14 to their troops.
I sure like my Minis, but they are not battle rifles.
An ar-15 is no more a battle rifle than a mini 14. Did you read my post at all? Get the facts
Mannlicher
03-19-2006, 13:10
An ar-15 is no more a battle rifle than a mini 14. Did you read my post at all? Get the facts
you are right. I was thinking of M16 rifles.
DeadReckoning
03-19-2006, 22:49
you are right. I was thinking of M16 rifles.
Tell me how an M16 is more of a battle rifle than a mini 14.
Tell me how an M16 is more of a battle rifle than a mini 14.
Hmmm...USGI issue...does that count? Btw, (I`ve got an ASI mini) Carl @ ASI is a friggin moron.
I own 1 mini 14, 2 AR's and 3 AK's. I like them all. AR is definetly more accurate and consistant with accuracy. I ended up putting about $1000 into the mini for accuracy of the AR. I could have bought an AR with better accuracy out of the box. As for mags, no way the worst mags for a mini are anything like AdventureLand mags. You ever find a Western mag that was reliable. I'm sure some have but I havn't. Reliable mags for a mini are still more expensive than AR mags. The most reliable of all is the AK. I can shoot just about any ammo(7.62x39) with any mag made for it. Doesn't matter if it's dirty or dry. AR won't function unless it's lubed good. Mini has looser tolerances and aside from mags is very reliable. AR and AK are easy to clean. AR is a modular system. I can change uppers whenever I want with ease. Bottom line is there is no perfect combat rifle. These were all designed for a specific function. As far as accuracy of any of these. Everyone wants to compare accuracy of a combat rifle to a deer rifle. These rifles were designed for shorter distances and to hit something the size of a man, not a 1" x at 300 yards.
Hmmm...USGI issue...does that count? Btw, (I`ve got an ASI mini) Carl @ ASI is a friggin moron.
The M16 is not and never will be a battle rifle. The same goes for the Mini-14.
The M16 is an ASSAULT rifle, not a battle rifle. If you don't know the difference, I'll tell you. Many battle rifles are a lot like an assault rifle in that most, not all, have a large capacity box magazine, some are select fire, most are not, but the biggest difference is that a battle rifle is chambered for a full power cartridge like 7.62 NATO or .30-06. Typical battle rifles would be FAL's, G3's, M14's, and the grand daddy of them all the M1 Garand. An assault rifle is chambered for an intermediate power cartridge like 5.56 NATO or 7.62X39. Typical assault rifles are the M16 family and the AK-47 family. A Mini-14 or an AR-15, despite what the sheeple think, are not and never have been assault rifles.
Ruger did make an assault rifle version of the Mini called the AC556, but I'm not sure if they still make it. I hope this helps those of you who are confused about this.
My turn to beat the dead horse...
Over the decades I've owned several Mini's (including the original 180 when it first came out) and AR's (everything from stock SP-1's to a custom XM-177E2). Bottom line for me based on personal experience with them both is that I don't trust the AR platform; too many problems experienced (yes, I know there are reliable AR's out there but I never owned one of them). I don't like how the AR handles/points but that's purely subjective. The Mini-14 isn't perfect and I certainly wouldn't issue it to frontline troops but my biggest complaints (relative inaccuracy and unreliable mags) have been resolved easily & inexpensively. Accuracy: bbl cut to 16.5" & added a flash hider. Mags: ProMag makes excellent steel & polymer hicap mags for the Mini-14 (Natchez sells the Polymers for less than $11 each). The Mini-14 handles/points better & faster for me than anything else I've owned/tried and have always been 100% reliable w/good mags. I trust it to always go "bang" when I need it to. IMHO the AR & Mini are like comparing a Ferrari & VW: both will get you where you want to go but if the Ferrari breaks you're likely to need more than the tool kit under the front seat to fix it whereas the VW (while not as nice or fancy) isn't as likely to need the tool kit in the first place...
Tomac
PS- The AR troubleshooting forum at AR15.COM currently shows 2,879 topics with 20,345 replies for just the past 2 weeks.
Luv-My-Mini
03-22-2006, 04:39
I think that in a shtf situation like Katrina you might be better off with an AR since that's what the police carry, even though it's an "evil black rifle". If you put on a blue windbreaker with "security" emblazoned on it they might be less likely to shoot on sight. I think if you were carrying an AK they'd shoot first and ask questions later.
This whole debate is a bull**** product of Bush 41's import ban (an executive order that 43 could have easily rescinded but hasn't). Why aren't we debating the merits of the AR vs. AUG, SCAR, Sig, HK etc? Because those guns cost thousands of dollars. We are talking about one gun whose design will be 50 y.o. in a couple of years, and another that although it is 35 y.o. the system was developed 75 years ago. The only other viable candidate (AK) has it's birth year in it's name, also a whopping 60 y.o. I know that the 1911 is 95, but I guess old John B. was just a little sharper than John G or Eugene.
On a related note, everyone should run out and rent a Korean movie called "Tae Guk Gi" about the Korean war. Best war movie ever. There is some hand to hand combat where the S. Koreans are using the big M1s like clubs. Try that with an AR.
On a related note, everyone should run out and rent a Korean movie called "Tae Guk Gi" about the Korean war. Best war movie ever. There is some hand to hand combat where the S. Koreans are using the big M1s like clubs. Try that with an AR.
That is a great movie!
BTW...you can also do a butt-stroke with a Mini and not have to worry about breaking your rifle. Do that with an AR, especially one with the flimsy collapsible stock, and you're going to break it. Besides alot of people, myself included, just don't like the AR. It wouldn't matter if the AR was tougher and used a piston gas system, I still wouldn't like it. It has to do with feel. That is a very subjective thing. Some will like the feel of an AR better, and others prefer the feel of the Mini. I prefer the Mini's feel and I think it looks better. The AR just looks and feels too much like a toy to me.
This issue of AR vs. Mini-14 can never be resolved. Everyone has a favorite. We can't all agree on everything, and it would be a pretty boring world if we did. I will say this though, I still respect the AR as a weapon that is capable of serving its owner well. I only expect the same respect for my choice of a Mini-14 from those of you who prefer the AR. Thank you.
This issue of AR vs. Mini-14 can never be resolved. Everyone has a favorite. We can't all agree on everything, and it would be a pretty boring world if we did. I will say this though, I still respect the AR as a weapon that is capable of serving its owner well. I only expect the same respect for my choice of a Mini-14 from those of you who prefer the AR. Thank you.
Well said! +1.
Tomac
God invented handguns so you have to have butt stroke-Personally I prefer a really big knife if they are that close. That's why I have dozens in my stash. I used to have a knife/gun shop, with my addiction I had to keep one of every 'good' knife that came in. That sure cut down on the profit margin, fortunately there's no PM in the gun business.
Semper Fi
LonePathfinder
03-22-2006, 21:56
That is a great movie!
BTW...you can also do a butt-stroke with a Mini and not have to worry about breaking your rifle. Do that with an AR, especially one with the flimsy collapsible stock, and you're going to break it. Besides alot of people, myself included, just don't like the AR. It wouldn't matter if the AR was tougher and used a piston gas system, I still wouldn't like it. It has to do with feel. That is a very subjective thing. Some will like the feel of an AR better, and others prefer the feel of the Mini. I prefer the Mini's feel and I think it looks better. The AR just looks and feels too much like a toy to me.
This issue of AR vs. Mini-14 can never be resolved. Everyone has a favorite. We can't all agree on everything, and it would be a pretty boring world if we did. I will say this though, I still respect the AR as a weapon that is capable of serving its owner well. I only expect the same respect for my choice of a Mini-14 from those of you who prefer the AR. Thank you.
If you are to the point of butt stroking then you are SOL anyway. Your ammo is gone and you lost your side arm, bayonet and fighting knife?
Seriously when has hand to hand happened in the last thirty years? This is what pistols are for. Primary runs dry, either go to cover and draw your side arm, or your knife if its that close.
Yes I know there are one or two instances, but honestly the adjustable stock of the AR is better for the other 99.9% of fighting situations given the thickness of body armor affecting length of pull of service rifles. Why else are the Canadians going to M4 style stocks on their full (20") length C7's?
I was just making a point that you could do a buttstroke with the Mini and not break it. I wasn't advocating you go around buttstroking bad guys. Geez, don't get all bent out of shape!!
Did you even read the rest of my post. I respect the AR, and I respect your decision to use one. Please have the same respect for me and my choice to use a Mini-14. Thank you.
BTW...Just for the record, I hate knives. I will not use a knife as a weapon if I can help it.
The Mini is the better design for a battle rifle imo. However, the AR is most likely better than the Mini in their present forms.
If the Mini had underwent all the mods the AR has, it would probably be better than the Ar overall. Some say the Mini lacks durability cause of cast parts?
IMHO the AR is a better infantry weapon as modern logistics can provide whatever maintenance/replacements necessary. However, I can't count on having a platoon of friendlies to cover my butt if I need to clear a jam or the resources of a modern industrialized nation waiting to hand me a new rifle if mine breaks. In a SHTF scenario (ala NO) the Mini makes the better *survival* weapon.
Tomac
DeadReckoning
03-23-2006, 23:48
Hmmm...USGI issue...does that count? Btw, (I`ve got an ASI mini) Carl @ ASI is a friggin moron.
Here is a little knowledge for all you die hard ar-15 m16 fans.
Cleaning and breaking down an ar-15 is just as easy as an mini 14 if you are at home or somewhere where you don’t have to rush. If you are in a hostile environment taking down an ar-15 is not something to look forward to for these two reasons.
1) The hand guard is tight and has to be stood up vertically and requires considerable force to remove.
2) There are many more very small moving parts in an ar-15.
The mini 14 is very simple to breakdown and the smallest part you have to deal with is the gas bushing, which is roughly the size of a penny.
When I was in the Army we had two qualify with M16A2. We were given 40 rounds and had to shoot 40 pop up silhouette targets 2 at a time. I qualified as a sharpshooter instead of a expert because I had a jam during my qualification. As a result of the malfunction I had to eject 1 round that I could never get back and missed two targets due to the time it took to perform S.P.O.R.T.S. on the rifle.
Everyone knows the factory Ar-15 shoots tighter groups than the factory Mini 14 because of the thin crap barrel Ruger uses. If you spend about $450.00 on a Mini 14 and spend another $350.00 on a really good bull barrel you have spent 800.00. If you spend another $100.00 on a nice pistol grip synthetic stock you have spent $900.00. If you spend another $100.00 on a recoil buffer and other minor accessories you have spent $1000.00 which is the average going price for a new Ar-15 M4. So you see if you modify the Mini-14 to equal the price of the Ar-15 you have a weapon that shoot as good as if not better than Ar-15. Not to mention it will be more reliable do to its loose action and self cleaning bolt. Imagine if Ruger sold there rifles in the configuration that I just mentioned from the start. Don't you think it would have received more attention in the Law Enforcement and Military circles? I kind of think people like Ar-15 because they are the rifles everyone sees when they watch movies and play video games, ect... If the Mini 14 had been manufactured in the way I mentioned before I think that the ar-15 would have had a run for there money when being chosen by different governments as a service rifle. Especial since it took so much convincing on the part of the US Government to change from the proven Garand style rifles to the ar-15 type rifles.
Just a side note the AR-15 is the only service weapon in the world that comes standard with a forward assist. What’s that saying?
I think the Ar-15 is a great weapon and would serve law enforcement agency’s better than the mini 14 since they aren’t getting their rifles as dirty. But when it comes to the battle field I don’t want to be stuck with a rifle that has such a tight chamber a small amount of dirt will render it useless. Not to mention the gas that recycled into firing chamber that gets it dirty fast.
The Ak47 has a similar style action as the Mini 14 and variations of that weapon have been around since 1947, and is still the most produced service rifle in the world. Sometimes newer doesn’t mean better. Sometimes the cooler looking or more menacing looking weapon doesn’t mean more deadly.
Basically I prefer a Modified Mini-14 for the same price as a factory Ar-15 because it will shoot the same if not better. Once you have eliminated accuracy problems from the equation it comes down to reliability, which almost everyone agrees the Mini -14 is superior in that aspect for the reasons I have stated above. There is no modification for the AR-15 that I know of that will increase the reliablity of the action.
Also who ever as trouble finding Mini-14 accessories isn’t looking very hard. The only accessory I can’t find for the Mini 14 that the Ar-15 has is a forward vertical grip. And yes you can get a telescoping stock for the Mini 14 you can find a link to it in this forum, all you need is the adapter.
Just because the military uses the ar-15 doesn’t mean there are more accessories. If you have been in the military you know the only accessories you get with your M16 is a bayonet, mags, and ammo.
the mini imho is generally more reliable than the ar rifles. ar's can shoot .5 moa when tweaked; tough choice between the two; however if you want
the best 5.56 rifle it is a sig rifle:( about 1moa when using swiss ruag gp90 ammo; ak inspired design that is re-engineered by the swiss for accuracy and reliability-ever see their torture test) mags you can clip together; night sights; winter trigger guard; factory bipod-although not very good imho; two position gas system; etc
the sad face should be a happy face
chozen1
RugerPlinker
04-14-2006, 09:30
A nice wood stocked Mini has nearly zero 'black gun' image, which for me, is a very good thing, as I'm neither military nor LEO.
anybody rifleman whos has had the oppurtunity to spend some time with either will pick the ar hands down. the mini is robust sure but the accuracy makes it as valuable as a handgun. with that being said i would rather have a handgun then a mini. currently i own a very modified mini but only cause i dumped my ar's for the cali ban. sure with the modifications it is very accurate but weapons maintenence sucks due to the whole break down and no cleaning from the chamber. ok then dont make it accurate make it a good goto shtf weapon you say,wrong. the ar in a short barrel is way more egornomic easier and faster to shoot lighter to carry, and far more options for accessories. here in cali give me a bolt for accuracy and a kel tec su-16 for firepower. any body interested in a super accurate asi mini call me i need the money for a 223 bolt gun.
1) I've spent lots of time w/both and have owned numerous versions of both. I'll still take the Mini over the AR in a heartbeat.
2) My Minis are slightly modified (bbl cut back, FH added, trigger job), didn't cost much and give me all the accuracy I want out of them (3" at 100yds w/ghostring sights using Q3131).
3) Cleaning from the chamber is easy if you use a boresnake.
4) Sorry, I find the Mini faster to shoulder/aim/shoot than the AR (YMMV) and while slightly more ergonomic the AR suffers from numerous design-inherent defects that are impossible or expensive to remedy (the troubleshooting forum at AR15.COM currently has 2,950 topics w/20,841 replies :o ). Speed of mag changes? You're already starting w/30rds, how many times do you intend to miss??? I've yet to hear or read of any incident where an LEO or civilian won or lost a confrontation due to rifle mag change speed.
5) Accessories? So what, how many do you need for a basic go-to weapon? I have a tritium front sight, ghostring rear & flash hider. I can easily add a taclight or red-dot/optic if desired.
6) SU-16? Thx, but I don't trust Kel-Tec's long-term durability, QC nor the wisdom of polymer receivers on rifles (their warranty won't do you much good if the rifle goes "click" when you really, *really* need it to go "bang"). The Mini has a 30yr track record of ruggedness and reliability and will eat ammo that many AR's will choke on (the Winchester 45gr Varmint load & new Wolf M-193 come to mind).
Just my $.02 worth...
Tomac
anybody rifleman whos has had the oppurtunity to spend some time with either will pick the ar hands down. the mini is robust sure but the accuracy makes it as valuable as a handgun. with that being said i would rather have a handgun then a mini. currently i own a very modified mini but only cause i dumped my ar's for the cali ban. sure with the modifications it is very accurate but weapons maintenence sucks due to the whole break down and no cleaning from the chamber. ok then dont make it accurate make it a good goto shtf weapon you say,wrong. the ar in a short barrel is way more egornomic easier and faster to shoot lighter to carry, and far more options for accessories. here in cali give me a bolt for accuracy and a kel tec su-16 for firepower. any body interested in a super accurate asi mini call me i need the money for a 223 bolt gun.
Well said Tomac. I agree 100%, a BIG
+1
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