9mm do have Stopping power

[Zipper]

Hi all
I am from South Africa. A while ago I was forced into a situation where I had to defend my family and the only weapon close at that stage was my 9mm CZ. The shot fired was measured by the police and was a total of 68 meters. It was a head shot, entering behind the suspects ear, the bullet did not exit. The suspect was killed instantly.

Now my statement. I kind of get the idea that some members here beleive that a 9mm do not have stopping power, concidering the fact the suspect was killed instantly over a distance of 68 meters, I must disagree with them.

I must add that the bullet was a military FMJ 115 grain used overhere in sub machine guns. Is it posible that it can have an influence on the stopping power, the difference between handgun ammu and SMG ammu?

Any coments or similar situations proving the stopping power of 9mm will appreciated.

Greetings

[LonePathfinder]

Some SMG ammo is loaded much hotter than is safe to use in many handguns. Plus the fact that an SMG has a longer barrel for increase velocity.

Modern 9mm is fine for stopping power. JHP's for 9mm perform much better than 45 ball, which for years was the standard benchmark. Yes 45 JHP's work very well too, but 9mm is perfectly adequate.

99% of shootings are shot placement. The myth of one stop shot on a non CNS hit is usually not true.

[DaveyDug]

Would you mind telling us a bit more about the situation? I'm just curious what kind of defensive shooting took place at 68 meters?

[Zipper]

Would you mind telling us a bit more about the situation? I'm just curious what kind of defensive shooting took place at 68 meters?

Certainly Dave.
A huge problem in the RSA is what we call "Farm Attacks". The situation was that while I was out attending domestic farming, an armed suspect attacked my wife in the house while my first child, at that stage 4 weeks old, was also in house. My wife managed to make alarm to which I responded. Due to the situation I always carry a firearm. The suspect tried to escape, I did the right thing according to our law, first a verbal warning, then a warning shot, and lastly the fatal shot.

The law here state that you can only shoot in self defence if a priority crime is in progress, or the person commiting a priority crime resist arrest or attempt to escape arrest and he cannot be identified for later arrest. In my situation the person tried to escape a citizens arrest, henceforth his fatal mistake.

As a matter of interest, since 1994, more than 4000 farmers, white and black were killed on their farms, and now the government want to disarm the general population claiming that legal gun ownership leads to giving criminals access to firearms. What a bunch of crap.

Although it is not nice knowing you took a life, rightfully or wrongfully, I am quite prepared to do it again, my wife, my children, my property, I will defend it with all possible means, even using attack as a means of self defence.

Hope it answers your questions.

[Zen900]

A 22cal would have been fatal as well with shot placement like that. Zipper what is going on in SA? Is this mass civil unrest, civil war or lawlessness due to remote location? What are "farm attacks"?

[DaveyDug]

Hope it answers your questions.

Indeed it does. I'm glad you and your family came out of the situation all right.

[SPARTEN117]

Firstoff nice shot Zipper, second the only reason you had a one shot stop is because you hit the man in the head, if you had hit him sentermass then i think you might have had to shoot him more.

[ShootinDave]

9mm has great penitration. The reason most LEO's went to 40, 45 ,10mm was for brut force from the round. Try using a 9mm on a crazed man on PCP. There are many accounts from soldiers today that say that 9mm isnt enough against doped up enemies. Same reason the FBI went from 9mm to 10mm. (then back to 40 S&W when they found out that acountants and lawyers turned cops dont like recoil.)

Any cal. is good enough with a head/heart/lung shot.

BTW good shootin.

- Dave

[Zipper]

A 22cal would have been fatal as well with shot placement like that. Zipper what is going on in SA? Is this mass civil unrest, civil war or lawlessness due to remote location? What are "farm attacks"?

Visit this link, but beware, it is gruesome, it will explain and show "Farm attacks"

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos16.asp

[astronomer]

First of all welcome ZIPPER we are glade to hear that things turn out ok an you was able to defend your family , shot placement is very important, but depend the situation, if he's on dope (pcp) he may be hard to stop, depend where you hit him , with the 9mm. sounds like the 9mm is the number one round in SA ? yes your wright there are some of my fellow Americans that beleive that the 9mm lacks the stopping power. there's been a many heated debate's about the 9mm, some say with the wright ammo the 9mm can do the job, others say the 9mm is two small an lacks the stopping power, now my wife loves the 9mm an the 38 special, two of our great rounds are the 45 acp an the 357 magnum number one man stopper.but I don't want to start a Ammo debate.to change subject if you don't mine, may Iask you A few Questions about these Farm Attacks, this first started in 1994 wright? Is the situation getting worse? I hear crime is bad an it is very dangerous in the big city's like Johannesburg, cape town , pretoria ?an there is talk about disarming the law abideing citizens? that don't sound good , I think I would stock up on ammo wright now, are you all allowed to own shotgun's an rifles? what is the situation in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) , I hear the same thing is going on. well have to go now. take care of your family.

[LonePathfinder]

There are many accounts from soldiers today that say that 9mm isnt enough against doped up enemies.

Soldiers only use ball ammo, thus it should not be a factor in determining what we civilians use. Besides if your using your pistol as a soldier, things are really very dire and/or the armorer doesn't like you enough to give you a long arm:lol:

There are still very large numbers of departments that still use 9mm. Modern JHP's are head and shoulders above what the 9mm was like in the 70's and 80's. 9mm, 40 cal and 45 cal in modern forms offer similar results on a sliding scale, bigger is better, but the entire spectrum has shifted in recent years with modern ammo. I'd say modern 9mm JHP is where 45 ball was, thus a 40 jhp or 45 jhp way above where 45 ball was years ago.

Ammo technology is why 38's and 375's stuck around as man stoppers. Because back in the day there were more varities of ammo for 38/375 like wadd cutters etc that functioned somewhat like a jhp. 9mm and 45 still only had ball ammo back then, thus the reason LEO's didn't use them much.

The military still refuses to use JHP's or other rounds because of geneva interpretations. Its asinine since no one we have ever fought recognized those accords. Germans violated it, Japanese did and certainly everyone else in the last 100 years. Its moronic to stick to it ourselves when it comes to things like pistol ammo.

[Zen900]

Zipper thanks for the links. I had heard of these type attacks but not in SA. I assumed it was in central Africa only where these attacks were occuring. I also noticed the acronym ANC which is behind these farm attack murders. ANC is African National Congress. In America we frequently see the black, green red ANC flag colors on woolhats. The ANC flag is the flag of Communism but few Americans realize it.

[Zipper]

The situation in SA is worsening by the day. Besides the murders on white farmers, the armed gangs now have the courage to attack and rob shops in malls in densly populated areas. The police cannot do anything about it due to corruption, no training, lack of interrests, lack of professionalism and because the crimes are committed by their "brothers" mostly the police are part of the planning of the armed robbers and cash heists.

We cannot stock up ammu, the law allows you only certain ammount of ammu for the weapons you have a permit for.

There are virtually no white farmers left in ZImbabwe, most killed or driven of their farms without a dime's compensation, the Zimbabweans are dying of hunger, no food, the food donated by the WFP is only handed out to ZANU PF card carying members.

Lastly, the present goverenment, most of the police, and most of my fellow military colleagues recieved their training in Russia, East Germany, Cuba, North Korea, Libia, China and all the other communist countries. They think that they understand democracy, but we have a saying here, "You can take them out of the bush, but you cannot take the bush out of them"

The ANC flag is black, green and yellow

[Zipper]

I must explain that I am not a racist. I have fought with black soldiers, shoulder to shoulder, spilled blood together which is red, no matter what your skin colour. We have fought against black communists, white Russians, white East Germans and Potuguese in Angola. We have spilled more of their blood and guts. They certainly have a lot more names (KIA)on their memorial walls that we have.

I have a problem with clash of cultures, religion that's forced down, ideoligy forced in schools, attacks on my culture, language, religion and my lilly white skin. We certainly do have the ability to live and work together, but only if you are civilized and respects each others beleives, property and culture.

They must not deny my children our history, we have suffered a lot and fought hard to be what we are, dont make my hero's of several wars out for criminals.

[Zen900]

The ANC flag is black, green and yellow Yes you are correct. I was trying to remember the 3rd color but I couldnt so I guessed. lol.

[Metalhead]

Shot placement, Shot placement, Shot placement and Shot placement. Practice, Practice, Practice and Practice. People get wrapped up in cal. wars that are for the most part "My dad can beat up your dad". Shoot the biggest cal. your capable of and practice/train. I'd say if that guy was hit with a bigger cal. in the leg and was armed who knows how it would have turned out... God bless ya zipper and hats off to you!

[Beowulf]

Several years ago I read a book about the Rhodesian battle against the communist insurgency of the Mugabee thugs. I can't remember the name of the book but what an eye opener about the plight of whites there. It was not to long after that the white government had to negotiate because they were literally abandoned by the rest of the world, and a communist dictator (Mugabee) eventually came to power. Over time he showed his true color, tyrannical.

Good shooting Zip. One more for the good guys.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

thanks for the link to the farm murders, wow that is gruesome work by these devils. best of luck to you and yours, Jan. keep that Mini-14 handy and loaded and locked.

[HighDesertWolf]

I must explain that I am not a racist. I have fought with black soldiers, shoulder to shoulder, spilled blood together which is red, no matter what your skin colour. We have fought against black communists, white Russians, white East Germans and Potuguese in Angola. We have spilled more of their blood and guts. They certainly have a lot more names (KIA)on their memorial walls that we have.

I have a problem with clash of cultures, religion that's forced down, ideoligy forced in schools, attacks on my culture, language, religion and my lilly white skin. We certainly do have the ability to live and work together, but only if you are civilized and respects each others beleives, property and culture.

They must not deny my children our history, we have suffered a lot and fought hard to be what we are, dont make my hero's of several wars out for criminals.


My friend Im all to aware of the issues over there some of my closest friends are from over there and they still have family there aswell. One of my friends her mother was attacked on her way home luckily for her she was able to escape but the fellow with her was alot less fortunate though he was not killed he was severely beaten and had the palms of his hands super glued to the grips of his motor cycle, his mouth super glued shut and his bare butt super glued to the seat of his motor cycle.

Im very glad to know that your situation turned out for the best and you were able to defend your families lives without any repercussion from the screwed up laws over there.