The Rapture Question Importance

[280man]

I feel that the plain language of 2nd Thess. chapter two is so emphatic and clear that it cannot be misunderstood.

Our gathering together to Christ will not occur until there is a great falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

The pretrib, secret, imminent, rapture theory is a relatively new invention, arising from a one Mr Darby and made popular by the notes in Schofields bible.

MANY have bought into it, in direct contradiction to the plain bold emaphatic words of Paul in 2nd thess chapter two.

This is a big set up. The devil is going to pull the rug out from under a lot of people as these last days events unfold. We must be mentally and spiritually prepared for sever persections and very hard times, not an easy out.

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by 280man@Jan 20 2005, 03:39 PM
I feel that the plain language of 2nd Thess. chapter two is so emphatic and clear that it cannot be misunderstood.

Our gathering together to Christ will not occur until there is a great falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

The pretrib, secret, imminent, rapture theory is a relatively new invention, arising from a one Mr Darby and made popular by the notes in Schofields bible.

MANY have bought into it, in direct contradiction to the plain bold emaphatic words of Paul in 2nd thess chapter two.

This is a big set up. The devil is going to pull the rug out from under a lot of people as these last days events unfold. We must be mentally and spiritually prepared for sever persections and very hard times, not an easy out.
I agree with you 100% 280Man. The parable of the Tares & the Wheat, was clearly explained by Christ. And according to Him, the wicked would be "pulled up" in that time. Not the other way around. Good Post, and an Important one Bro. Because the the "tares" are starting to stand up as to be clearly seen. The wheat is beginning to bend under oppression.

[swill269]

:o
gentlemen,

my POV:
there most likely will come a time when the earth's population will be greatly reduced, quickly. this handful of folks left will have the opportunity to "get it right". however, based on mankind's past, he'll blow it again. i think we are doomed to this cycle until the brain "evolves" with new outlooks/ideals/visions/order of intelligence. :ph34r:

it is like the family vs others in favor. like "blood is thicker than water"; well i think the water and blood will have to be equal when we get it right. :beer:

mean while; i make the best of what i've got and try to "get it right". :blink:

what goes around, comes around. good luck and fair well. ;)
:cool:

[Metaldoc]

Sword & 280man... you are bringing an light to an important topic. The rapture theory is so popular now that it is misleading many of our brethern. I post this to help them to study it and understand it for themselves. The rapture is an illusion giving many the idea they will have a "second chance" as part of those "left behind"....... an illusion perpetuated by the enemy himself.

Swill, we know where you stand and this is not directed at you in anyway. This is for those already in acceptance of Christ and just need help growing in their faith and knowledge of their Lord and Saviour.

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THE TRUTH ABOUT THE RAPTURE

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Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The above passage is frequently quoted to support a "secret" rapture, that neither the saved or the lost will be aware of what is happening at the time. Supposedly, millions of Christians will be "taken" and simply disappear mysteriously, leaving the world wondering where they went. Just what does this passage really intend to teach? Well, first let's look at a parallel passage in Matthew:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
...
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Note that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the second coming of the Lord. Clearly in in days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the second coming. Now notice that in Luke 17, verse 37, a question is asked: "Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together". This answer given by Jesus refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain at the second coming. (See also Rev 19:20-21) So Jesus was not teaching a silent or secret rapture of the righteous away from the world. He was making it clear, that at His second coming, all the wicked will be taken and slain first, before the righteous are taken to heaven. This destruction of the wicked is completely ignored by those teaching the secret rapture.

The Second Coming Described

The following verses all show that with respect to the second coming, Jesus will indeed come quickly-

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And the following verses refer to the second coming of Jesus as being like a thief for the wicked-

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

It should be quite clear that all the above verses are indeed referring to the second coming of Jesus. He will come quickly, like lightning, as a thief upon the unsuspecting wicked of the world. But is it a secret, silent event?

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It will be the noisiest, most climactic event in history, not a silent, mysterious secret.

The Parable of the Tares of the Field.

Now, in the book of Matthew, Jesus tells a parable about the end of the world, which is intended to explain some end time events of the second coming:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus then explains the parable in detail to His disciples:

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Note the timing of events Jesus describes, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of God are still among them. Advocates of the popular pre-tribulation rapture propose that all righteous Christians will first be taken up by Jesus secretly, in an instant, leaving behind a totally non-Christian world in startled ignorance of why a significant portion of the population has simply disappeared off the face of the earth. The secret rapture theory is the reverse sequence of the parable as told by Jesus, and so can be dismissed on this point alone! Jesus in the book of Matthew again confirms that the wicked will be taken out from among the righteous:

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[tri70]

It still something I trying to figure out because the book of Revelation telling the 7 bowls of Gods wrath that are poored out to make the wicked suffer. Surely we will be taken up before and not have to suffer thru the wrath of God.

-tri :usa:

[YourLocalNerd]

Originally posted by tri70@Jan 20 2005, 04:57 PM
It still something I trying to figure out because the book of Revelation telling the 7 bowls of Gods wrath that are poored out to make the wicked suffer. Surely we will be taken up before and not have to suffer thru the wrath of God.

-tri :usa:
Well among the other theologies, Pre-Wrath is one of them. And it is basically what you say. It holds to the belief that the rapture takes place in the middle of the tribulation, a couple weeks after the end of the "wrath of man" and before the beginning of the "Wrath of God". There is an excellent book by Marvin Rosenthaul (sp? to lazy to go check the bookshelf :) ) called Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church that explains that theology in detail. It is a very good and easy read, although I did not come away convinced either. But I am of the belief that there are MANY mysteries that God doesnt intend for us to understand until AFTER the prophecy has come to fullfilment. And honestly, I believe the rapture and the end times events apply to that. However I can say this, I do NOT believe in the pre-trib theology. I doesnt at all hold to what God has done in the past, nor is there real scriptural basis for it unless you want to twist scripture and read into to things that arent really there.

But among the other theologies there is a definite scriptural basis for them; or at least the ones I am familiar with. Metaldoc just did a superb job showing the proofs for Post-Trib. And it makes sense, but with research, so does Pre-Wrath.

My whole point is, I believe that God left it vague so that we wouldnt know. So that we would live everyday as if He were coming that night. Just like in Matt 25:1-13 (I will let you who are interested look it up ;) ) the parable of the ten virgins is us. I dont believe it to be all man, it is the so called church. 5 had a relationship, 5 were ready. Where as 5 had no relationship, they just knew the truth.

Matt 25:13 "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."

It also says in scripture that Jesus Himself does not know, but only the Father.

The only one that I know of that I cant believe is the pre-trib, so aside from that...imo it could be any time :) Dont matter though...cuz I am ready ;)

---edited for spelling..dunno if it really helped though :P

[Metaldoc]

Originally posted by YourLocalNerd@Jan 20 2005, 06:50 PM
:) Dont matter though...cuz I am ready ;)


There you go ! That's the main thing.... to know you are ready to meet your maker.

I only presented this Rapture argument to discourage anyone from thinking they had a second chance (as put forward in the Left Behind series of books). Christ warned us of living that way and you presented that part well with the parable of the waiting ten virgins and their lamps.

We need to live each day to the fullest and to the Glory of God. It is interesting to study some of these theologies in depth, but we should be careful not to get so wrapped up in it that we lose sight of what is important.

I agree with you about God not revealing all to us. Someday He will, but for now we need to live each day in readiness for Christ's coming. If we have to live through some tough times, He will give us the means if we maintain our faith.

As for me, I'm ready whenever He is!

Metaldoc

[YourLocalNerd]

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Jan 20 2005, 08:25 PM
We need to live each day to the fullest and to the Glory of God. It is interesting to study some of these theologies in depth, but we should be careful not to get so wrapped up in it that we lose sight of what is important.
That right there is the main thing folks!!

Doc, I may never meet you in this life, but your darn skippy that I'll be looking you up in the next bro!

I'll be the dude holding up the sign = "Doctor of Metal?" :D :D

[Scully]

When we look at who will and who will not gain acceptance into the heavens. Where would you look to find those fitting these two examples.


1. Those who in their own heart and mind truly believe they are doing the work of the Lord and commit acts of evil in the process.

examples could include the insane or those deceived by satan.

2. Those who do not believe but yet live life in a way serves the will of God.

An example would be someone who does not have faith do to lack of teaching or familiarity but lives a good life working to help all of his fellow man.

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by YourLocalNerd+Jan 21 2005, 01:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YourLocalNerd @ Jan 21 2005, 01:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Metaldoc@Jan 20 2005, 08:25 PM
We need to live each day to the fullest and to the Glory of God. It is interesting to study some of these theologies in depth, but we should be careful not to get so wrapped up in it that we lose sight of what is important.
That right there is the main thing folks!!

Doc, I may never meet you in this life, but your darn skippy that I'll be looking you up in the next bro!

I'll be the dude holding up the sign = "Doctor of Metal?" :D :D [/b][/quote]
Amen!! And Lord willing, Doc, Ill be standing behind Nerd so you will know. ;)

Doc and 280man, you guys did an excellent job in explaining that. Much better than I could. See, sometimes it pays for me to keep my mouth shut. Whoda thunk it? :blink: :lol:

[cabdmd]

But I am of the belief that there are MANY mysteries that God doesnt intend for us to understand until AFTER the prophecy has come to fullfilment. And honestly, I believe the rapture and the end times events apply to that. However I can say this,

I agree. I have stayed out of this one, because I have studied this and read books from all the angles and feel that there are valid points to pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib. I have not been convinced by the dispensational view held by the church where I fellowship. Chuck Missler holds the dispensationalist view and glibbly says about those who disagree "That's OK, we'll explain it to them on the way up."

but for now we need to live each day in readiness for Christ's coming.

Amen to that. All we need to do is abide in Him whatever happens.

Along these lines of end times, those of you who are clearly post trib are you Pre- millenial or Amillenial?

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by cabdmd@Jan 21 2005, 02:45 AM


Along these lines of end times, those of you who are clearly post trib are you Pre- millenial or Amillenial?
Im PAN-millenial. Cuz it'll all PAN out in the end!! ;) :lol:

[cabdmd]

I think that is exactly all we know for sure.

[280man]

Swordslinger, Metaldoc, nerd and you all- thanks for the replies and the well though out comments. Real encouraging to find others who have not caved in to what is popular. Sorry I did not get back to reply for so long.

Real encouraging- thanks

[280man]

Nerd;

I read the Rosenthal book and also that book, "The Sign" about 4 years ago or so.

I cannot sort out in my mind all the nuances they dissect but several broad points that they make are really good. When they document how the Dallas Theological folks twist verses to support their position... well it becomes very obvious they are skating are very thin ice. Matt 24 does not apply to the Church??? Where does it say that in the text? Where does one get the special "secret" knowledge to know that Matt 24 is not for us but elect nation of Israel???? I reject the concept of special secret knowledge, I have to go with the obvious plain text as it is written.

Think of it- there is no clear plain clear cut chapter that flatly states: "there will be a secret imminent pretribulation rapture of the church followed by exactly 7 years of tribulation and then a 1000 year millinium" BUT! there is an entire chapter in context, in plain emphatic language that says that "our gathering together unto HIM" will be preceded by two very identifiable events: the great apostasy and the revealing of the last and final antichrist.

God bless you all, and thanks for the replies

[YourLocalNerd]

Originally posted by 280man@Jan 23 2005, 04:16 PM
Nerd;

I read the Rosenthal book and also that book, "The Sign" about 4 years ago or so.

I cannot sort out in my mind all the nuances they dissect but several broad points that they make are really good. When they document how the Dallas Theological folks twist verses to support their position... well it becomes very obvious they are skating are very thin ice. Matt 24 does not apply to the Church??? Where does it say that in the text? Where does one get the special "secret" knowledge to know that Matt 24 is not for us but elect nation of Israel???? I reject the concept of special secret knowledge, I have to go with the obvious plain text as it is written.

Think of it- there is no clear plain clear cut chapter that flatly states: "there will be a secret imminent pretribulation rapture of the church followed by exactly 7 years of tribulation and then a 1000 year millinium" BUT! there is an entire chapter in context, in plain emphatic language that says that "our gathering together unto HIM" will be preceded by two very identifiable events: the great apostasy and the revealing of the last and final antichrist.

God bless you all, and thanks for the replies
First off I have to say that it has been at least 4 years if not more since I read that book. And if I gave the impression that I aligned my belief with it, I am sorry. B/c I dont. To some it up, I dont know what I believe in referance to the rapture. Honestly, I stopped studying about the "end times" and the like several years ago simply because it isnt a salvation issue and that it isnt what what we are here for. God didnt put us here to stand on a street corner and hold a sign saying the end is near for "such and such a reason". As I have said before, I do not agree with pre trib because to my memory every verse a pastor has made referance to prove it, he shortly there after twisted it out of context IMO.

However, again to my memory, the pre-wrath rapture is the one that makes the most sense to me. But again it has been a very long time since I read the book.

But this I will hold to like rebar to concrete: Jesus Himself doesnt know when He'll return and He Himself said that only the Father knows, so any man or any theology that claims to have it nailed down, is plain WRONG.

Oh yes, and I agree with you. I dont believe that God hid some truths into the text of the Bible. I do know that 2 people of differing hearts will read two different meanings out of the same portian of scripture, but "hid" meanings in it??? No. As soon as someone tells me they have found a hidden truth in the Word is the same moment I start looking for an exit.

I am truly sorry if I gave you the wrong impression in my original post :(

edit for spelling and grammar...imagine that :D

[tri70]

Well said Nerd!! The un-Godly will be punished those who believe will be saved, just don't wait to believe!!

-tri :usa:

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by tri70@Jan 24 2005, 02:30 PM
Well said Nerd!! The un-Godly will be punished those who believe will be saved, just don't wait to believe!!

-tri :usa:
Well said!!!

Ezekiel 13:20
"Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly."