View Full Version : What religion are you
??
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
One day, a man was walking across a bridge and saw another man standing on the edge, about to jump off. He immediately ran to him and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Well, why shouldn't I?" he replied. The other said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" "Like what”? "Well ... are you religious or atheist?" "Religious." "Me too! And are you Christian or Jewish?" "Christian." "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" "Protestant." "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?” "Baptist." "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?" "Baptist Church of God." "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" "Reformed Baptist Church of God." "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?" "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!" To which he said, "Die, you heretic!" and pushed him off the bridge.
When we get together with our family here in Israel on Shabbat, we often find ourselves discussing and even arguing our views on various topics, political, spiritual, etc. You’ve heard the phrase two Jews, five opinions? That’s our family. At the end, we all laugh about who argued best and try to learn from one another.
The body of Messiah is one big family. Yes, we differ in opinion on some issues. But we are going to be together for eternity and we must learn to live in peace with one another! In order for us to make a real difference in the world, the world needs to see us loving each other.
I'm sure they go to my church!! :lol:
-tri :usa:
LOL Tri, that's a good one! Sadly, that's what it is like... which only gives atheists ammunition against "religion." I grew up in a church that had mostly taken their eyes off of Christ and squabbled a lot. My parents owned a Christian bookstore that I worked in for some time, and we saw every type of denomination every day. Folks from different churches would come in and argue with each other and with my dad about which religion was right and which was wrong. Religions which were "created" only 30 or so years ago had followers who were convinced that they were the only ones who were right and that ALL others would go to hell. Boy, this made me mad!! To think that God sent his Son to save the world but we messed it all up by the mistake of misinterperatation and creation of imperfect "religions" which has doomed all souls to hell until someone finally got it right in only the last 30 years... that is ludicrous! It's no wonder I became an atheist!! Thankfully, I am not atheist anymore as God has helped me understand his reality through science, reason, and revelation. I personally do not believe in religion, I only believe that God sent his Son to die for us and that ONLY our acceptance of that fact, genuine repentance, and walk with Him will save us. That is my "religion" and I believe that is the only religion worthy of God's favor. I think that there are people from many denominations of Christianity that will find God's favor, and I think that there are even more from those same denominations that will not!
What religion am I? I am Christian, and that is all that matters!
Anybody have any different takes on "religion?"
Metaldoc
01-15-2005, 08:49
Tri and tunug,
You both have stated one of the biggest problems Christians and the church face today....... bickering over man made details and nitpicking interpretations. The bible is clear enough on the basic precepts of God and the teachings of Jesus Christ that we "should" have no problem coming together. This problem is even addressed in the Bible:
The Lord says, These people come near to me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Isaiah 29:13
It makes a handy excuse for me to stay away from church, but Christ tells us we need to fellowship as Christians and come together to worship. There are good churches out there, we just have to find it. We just need to be careful to not be part of the very problem we seek to escape.
Metaldoc :usa:
The writer of Hebrews (Holy Spirit) spoke about gathering together and the purpose for that which is to build up each other.
Heb:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
... and about divisions Paul writes.
Rom 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord *Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
Tankcommander
01-15-2005, 10:36
A lot of churchs have become social groups more then places of worship. As the older generation passes on there are less and less to fill the congregation and just to stay alive the churches have to do things to appeal to young people. So the message and morals get toned down and focus is lost.
I was christened Russian Orthodox and went to church as a child. The service was in Russian which I did not speak. So all I saw was a guy walking around in elaborate robes swinging incense around, they are big on incense, speaking a language I didn't understand. Wonder why I got turned off. :blink:
Nothing has filled that spot, which doesn't mean I closed myself off to new ideas or God.
TC :cannon:
Swordslinger
01-15-2005, 10:57
Originally posted by Tankcommander@Jan 15 2005, 05:36 PM
A lot of churchs have become social groups more then places of worship.
AMEN TO THAT......And a BIG one...
The "church" is not a building. It is a "body". Ill give you the definition as the greek word church is used in scripture.
Strong's Concordance says:
1577 ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah a calling out, i.e. (concretely) .... or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.
Or, as it has been said, and I'll say it again, "The called out ones".
Most "churches" wouldnt allow John the Baptist in the pulpit, or The King Jesus Christ Himself, oout of fear of loseing there tax exempt status. They love to drag the plate across your lap, and beg for money, and tell you "Jesus Loves You!" But they fail to tell all the other instructions out of fear of runnin you and your wallet off.
But.......as Christians, we are not part of a building called a church, but part of the body of Christ.....the "called out ones" Called out of the World " ie Kosmos in the greek word used for world= "world order".
I can see why many good men are turned away from Christianity because of these Baal Preists that fatten their bank account at the expense of His people. All I can say is that.................. The brook Kishon Awaits!!! 1st Kings 18:40 ;)
That is not Christianity, that my friends is "churchianity". Big difference.
I remember someone told me something real smart....
you can't go to church expecting to find God... God does not live in church, He lives in you. You will only find God in Church when you BRING Him there.
I haven't been a member of a church since i was a teen. I think I will look for one soon and I hope it won't annoy me too much, heh heh. Right now my church is friendship with fellow Christians, including you fine fellas. :)
swill269
01-17-2005, 17:03
:o
tunug,
LOL Tri, that's a good one! Sadly, that's what it is like... which only gives atheists ammunition against "religion."
this does not give me ammunition, but it does confirm most all of mankind is looking for something/another religion that "all" can hold on to. it will calm the fears/doubts/misbeliefs when "everybody gets it right" ; promise. look for it to start someday in a neighborhood like yours. :eek:
:cool:
Wide is the path to destruction. not everybody gets it right.. which is fine with me... this is something i can not change.... as long as i get it right. I have no doubts and i have no fears. People who call themselves Christians and don't live like Christians give Christianity a bad name and add to the doubt of those who are confused. I will not be one of them! The existence and nature of God is no longer just a matter of faith with me -- there is empirical proof!
... [Christ's] coming is after the work of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth... [2 Thessalonians: 9-12]
[2Thes 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
These verses are about the antichrist . The whole 2nd chapter of 2Thessalonians was written by Paul to the church in Thessalonica because they thought that they had missed the Second Coming. Paul says that the second coming won't happen until after the antichrist is revealed, and that the antichrist will deceive many with lying signs and wonders. When the Lord does return He will destroy the antichrist. You see if you did not know what God has revealed in His word and saw the things described here what would you think? That is why it is important to know what the Word says.
BlenderWizard
01-17-2005, 22:03
Personally, I think it's really funny to find out that someone thinks God wrote the Bible. You gotta keep it in perspective. How many years after the death of Christ were the books in the Bible written? And who wrote them? Men did. Men get details mixed up when they rely on memory many years after the fact. Men tend to embellish things. Men make mistakes. If people would stop adhering so strictly to the letter of the Bible and keep the Bible's ideals and purpose in mind more, I think there would be much less dissention amongst the various denominations.
Yes , men did pen the Bible, but it was authored by the Holy Spirit. A case in point is when Jesus asked His disciples ... "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Peter did not answer from his own reasoning but from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We Christians use the phrase, the inerrant Word of God.
BlenderWizard
01-17-2005, 22:28
Ok, well, I'm not following your train of thought there, maybe you could clarify? But here's an example: the story of Noah. In Genesis, the Earth was flooded, and Noah built the Ark, and we all know the rest. Did the ENTIRE planet get flooded? Probably not. Did the earth as those people knew it (the Middle East) get flooded? Probably did. Like I said, you gotta keep it in perspective. The people, in this example knew nothing of the Earth except where they lived (the Middle East), so when "the whole Earth" got flooded, it was probably only the whole Earth that they knew.
What I am saying is that men in fact wrote the words, but what they wrote was inspired by God. Here is another example. In Israel there was a test to see if a prophet was really a prophet. The test was simply if what they said was the truth. Did it come true? If yes, they live; if no, they get stoned to death. In other words, they weren't making this stuff up.
BlenderWizard
01-17-2005, 22:59
Look, I'm really not trying to pick a fight here, but you haven't really made a point. This almost reminds me of the pastor of my old church (who is a doctor) spouting out nonsense that seems to convince those who weren't thinking. The last sermon of his i went to before I decided to leave, the guy spent 10 minutes telling the congregation that the Bible was true because it says that it's true in the Bible. I don't know about you guys, but I find that kind of circular logic completely unacceptable, especially when there are so many other things that have been used to prove the existance of Jesus, and many of the other events described in the Bible.
Oh, coming back to the flood. The earth was one land mass then.
Gen 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one [was] Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided;
People lived for hundreds of years before the flood and the longevity started diminishing after the flood. I think Peleg was the great grandson of Noah. This was about 1700 years from time of the garden of Eden. Adam lived around 900 years.
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 06:16
Originally posted by cabdmd@Jan 18 2005, 01:16 AM
Oh, coming back to the flood. The earth was one land mass then.
Gen 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one [was] Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided;*
People lived for hundreds of years before the flood and the longevity started diminishing after the flood. I think Peleg was the great grandson of Noah. This was about 1700 years from time of the garden of Eden. Adam lived around 900 years.
Yeah, that's completely wrong. Man has been around AT MOST maybe 12,000 years. The Earth has not been one land mass since the dinosaurs were around. Check your facts on that one. Or are you one of these people who believes the Earth to only be about 6,000 years old?
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 06:52
Just to be a bit more specific, Pangaea began to break up about 200 million years ago. Here's some info, if you want to read about it
http://www.scotese.com/earth.htm
and
http://www.scotese.com/pangeanim.htm
Swordslinger
01-18-2005, 09:54
Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Jan 18 2005, 01:52 PM
Just to be a bit more specific, Pangaea began to break up about 200 million years ago. Here's some info, if you want to read about it
http://www.scotese.com/earth.htm
and
http://www.scotese.com/pangeanim.htm
If you dont believe, thats fine. EVERY thing you have discussed here can be refuted logicaly. The Bible dosnt refute much of what the churches say it does in regardes to science... But what would be the use? You came in to this makeing fun ("I think its funny that...") that someone thinks the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I have discovered that arguing scripture with an unbeliever, is a futile action, to say the least.
I used to get a little upset about people not being able to see that which is right in front of their noses, but not anymore. I have come to realise that all are NOT His. They could be if they wanted, but some are not. And as Tunug quoted, "HE" will send the strong delusion, that one might believe a lie.
If you think its funny, then laugh!!!!http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/laugh.gif
I mean no disrespect to you, and I hope you dont take it that way.
By the way, your view of the flood is correct from what I can tell from the original languages. The word "Earth" is the same hebrew word that is translated "land" in nearly all other places of scripture. I think, and can show from scripture that whole earth wasnt flooded at the time of Noah, and all man didnt decend from Noah's sons. Or from Adam for that matter. But that kind of teaching will get you kicked out of most churches. :(
Was there a world wide flood? yes, I just dont think it was Noah's.
There is alot of history that was written in the annuals of the kings of Israel and Juda that do follow what is written in the Bible. They were by the recorders of the day and not later time like the first books were. Also Paul wrote letters that make up most of the new testament again that were wrote during a current period. I know that some books in the Bible were written later and some by unknown authors. But I believe they are divinely inspired for us to follow. On the flood, believe they have found fossils of fish on the mountains of the world.
fossils and flood (http://www.nwcreation.net/fossils.html)
-tri :usa:
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 10:00
Nowhere did I say that the Bible was not inspired by God, but what I am saying is that there are those who believe that the Bible was written by God personally. That, I think, is laughable.
Swordslinger
01-18-2005, 10:03
Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Jan 18 2005, 05:00 PM
Nowhere did I say that the Bible was not inspired by God, but what I am saying is that there are those who believe that the Bible was written by God personally. That, I think, is laughable.
You are correct. Im sorry.
I hope you forgive me for putting words in your mouth. :( That was wrong, and I should have read a little closer, and paid more attention.
Swordslinger
01-18-2005, 10:05
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 18 2005, 05:00 PM
There is alot of history that was written in the annuals of the kings of Israel and Juda that do follow what is written in the Bible. They were by the recorders of the day and not later time like the first books were. Also Paul wrote letters that make up most of the new testament again that were wrote during a current period. I know that some books in the Bible were written later and some by unknown authors. But I believe they are divinely inspired for us to follow. On the flood, believe they have found fossils of fish on the mountains of the world.
fossils and flood (http://www.nwcreation.net/fossils.html)
-tri :usa:
Thanks for the link Tri!!!
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 10:05
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 18 2005, 12:00 PM
There is alot of history that was written in the annuals of the kings of Israel and Juda that do follow what is written in the Bible. They were by the recorders of the day and not later time like the first books were. Also Paul wrote letters that make up most of the new testament again that were wrote during a current period. I know that some books in the Bible were written later and some by unknown authors. But I believe they are divinely inspired for us to follow. On the flood, believe they have found fossils of fish on the mountains of the world.
fossils and flood (http://www.nwcreation.net/fossils.html)
-tri :usa:
Oh no, I do not doubt that at some point the entire Earth was covered with water, but like Swordslinger said, I don't think it was Noah's flood. And this link you have appears to be something created by the people who think the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. If you all believe that, I will end my portion of this discussion here.
Swordslinger
01-18-2005, 10:08
Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Jan 18 2005, 05:05 PM
but like Swordslinger said, I don't think it was Noah's flood.
From what I can tell, It was in the Tarim Basin area. There are many others that have come to this conclusion. Its not a new teaching at all. I have a map from London, that was printed in the late 1800s thats outline the Tarim Basin area.
Swordslinger
01-18-2005, 10:11
Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Jan 18 2005, 05:05 PM
And this link you have appears to be something created by the people who think the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. If you all believe that, I will end my portion of this discussion here.
I certainly do not believe that, and I dont think the Bible says that at all.
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 10:12
Originally posted by Swordslinger+Jan 18 2005, 12:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Jan 18 2005, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-BlenderWizard@Jan 18 2005, 05:05 PM
And this link you have appears to be something created by the people who think the Earth is only about 6,000 years old.* If you all believe that, I will end my portion of this discussion here.
I certainly do not believe that, and I dont think the Bible says that at all. [/b][/quote]
Well, thank God. Swordslinger, you are the voice of reason. Here's food for thought: God created the Heavens and Earth in 6 days, and rested on the 7th. Our "days" are based on the Earth's rotation on it's axis. Time is a creation of man. So, before the Earth existed, who's to say how long a day was?
I'm just not trying to affend, I've just always heard about fossils of ocean critters in high places. I'll like to discuss topics but forgive me if I affend anyone. Its like the dinosour footprints and human footprints found together in Texas. Does that mean we are millions of years old or we are still overestamating the ages?
-tri :usa:
Swordslinger
01-18-2005, 10:20
Originally posted by BlenderWizard+Jan 18 2005, 05:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlenderWizard @ Jan 18 2005, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 18 2005, 12:11 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-BlenderWizard@Jan 18 2005, 05:05 PM
And this link you have appears to be something created by the people who think the Earth is only about 6,000 years old.* If you all believe that, I will end my portion of this discussion here.
I certainly do not believe that, and I dont think the Bible says that at all.
Well, thank God. Swordslinger, you are the voice of reason. [/b][/quote]
Thank you. I wish my Christian brethren all saw it the same way as you. Like I said, It will get ya kicked out of church, because it leads to other logical teachings like links in a chain, that tend to get a churches 501-c3 taken away if taught from the pulpit.
You see, Genesis is the beginning, a foundation if you will. If your foudation is off just a fraction, the whole house will be off. If you had an enemy that wanted your house to be "out of plumb" then all is needed is for him to jack with your bubble level. Make any sense?
We have an enemy that dosnt want us looking past 6 thousand years for a reason. Ill stop here before...........well.......
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 10:22
Hehe... :lol:
Swordslinger
01-18-2005, 10:31
Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Jan 18 2005, 05:12 PM
So, before the Earth existed, who's to say how long a day was?
Exactly!!!
My father-in-law rejected the teaching of the Bible because of what is taught in the mainstream churches. He and I started with a small study on creation, and the flood. When we finished, he was reading his Bible daily and not long after that , I bapptized him and his wife. A few months later, he was dead. If he hadnt been shown the error on the teachings, and been exposed to another, more logical aproach, he would have been lost.
This is a touchy subject, and I refuse to argue scripture with my bretheren. There are those love to watch that. If anyones interested in learning more, Ill be happy to do a study via PM. Ok? I have much to learn as well.
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 10:44
Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 18 2005, 12:20 PM
Thank you. I wish my Christian brethren all saw it the same way as you. Like I said, It will get ya kicked out of church, because it leads to other logical teachings like links in a chain, that tend to get a churches 501-c3 taken away if taught from the pulpit.
You see, Genesis is the beginning, a foundation if you will. If your foudation is off just a fraction, the whole house will be off. If you had an enemy that wanted your house to be "out of plumb" then all is needed is for him to jack with your bubble level. Make any sense?
We have an enemy that dosnt want us looking past 6 thousand years for a reason. Ill stop here before...........well.......
Well, if you believe as I do, the Bible was never meant to be used as a strict historical record, but as guidelines for living, coupled with some explanation. Like the parables. They're just that: parables. A definition of a parable is : A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson. Not actual occurences, but stories made up to get a point across.
Reading about the nephillim(giants, or powerful people, the heros of old) were here on the pre-flood Earth. If we could have large giant people running around whose to say that the dinos were not here too as large creatures. They find the skeletons all over in good condition like they died and covered. Have you ever noticed that when an animals dies in the field you cannot find anything of it years later unless it gets buried in sediment? Maybe caused by a flood of some kind in the Grand Canyon and other parts of the world. I love the logical thinking but I hate that we don't always have all the info need to look at all the sides, the net does help for quick research tho!! :D
I like to ask questions and try to get some answers and discussions like this are great to me! :D
-tri :usa:
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 10:50
Personally, I think creationism and evolution go hand in hand.
Okay, some may say this is simple minded. I call it faith.
The Bible is the Inspired inerrant Word of God.
That being said there are many different "translations" out there
(I prefer the term Perversions) So it is easy to see why people can get
confused, imagine a history class with 20 different history books all
saying slightly different things. I believe the Bible for english speaking
people is the KJV 1611.(that will stir up a hornets nest) I believe man has
been around for 6000 years because the Bible teaches that. I believe
the entire earth was flooded because the Bible says so. I believe the earth
divided in the days of Peleg because the Bible says so. etc. etc. etc.
I don't need science to confirm God's word. If I trust Him with my soul why
shouldn't I trust Him in everything. John 1:1 Says "In the beginning was the
Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God".
If I trust in Christ I must trust in His Word as absolute truth.
swill269
01-18-2005, 12:15
:o
blenderwizard,
Time is a creation of man. time was not created, it is, it was, it will be. man created the measurement of time for his sake. the measurement of time has been in many different forms though history. just like the earth was flat for a long time, then got round, then went flat again because a "church" did not like the idea. now it is round again and church or no church, it will stay round.
the theory of evolution is based on facts and evidence molecular organisms can be changed to a different but already existing organism by adding/introducing another element. the evolution from one form to another is present in the human body; sperm and egg (1 cell each) form a zygote (now only 2 cells), zygote is controled by genetics and DNA mapping contained in both single cells. as cells develope they mutate from zygote to heart, lung, kidney, brain, etc. as they reach developement and become completely different cells, they are also programed to stop when fully developed. the body can mutate into something unrecognizable if it is not controlled by genetics. cancers, we are not born with, are a common cell mutation which "evolve" from the introduction of some unknown element/stimulant/carcinogen. because we have not found the proverbial missing link ("needle in a hay stack") does not by any means discount evolution's existence. science works everyday to prove this theory absolute. we have scientific evidence now which can more decidedly vouch for evolution. where as, no science or faith has any evidence of creation to present; other than taking what it wishes from science to "create" faith in a supernatural being/force. there is not enough "fact" to call creation a "theory" but only a "belief".
"the bible" is a compilation of individual stories/history written approximately 40 yrs after jesus' death. these stories are/were not all that was written about "christ". as christianity began to organize, via endorsement from government as a political ploy to unite citizens, the text was screened for content and benefit for the government's sake. the "bible" is a government document in reality and was farther enhanced by the "ruling government" of king james. when all was said and done it resulted in a "guide for life" promoting only one avenue. only by law and government was the "bible" declared "truth". you could be killed if you thought like me and talked like me. christianity is a young minority religion by comparison and catholicism is the most predominate denomination. protestants are even farther removed from the original practice by their very nature.
it matters not to me what you believe, but more what you do. like i said earlier somewhere; "i would rather you practice christianity than preach it." :beer:
:cool:
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 12:29
Ok, well allow me to rephrase. The measurement of time is a creation of man.
Tankcommander
01-18-2005, 15:59
A word about fossils, we only find a tiny percenage of fossils which have been preserved by flukes. Some died in floods or rivers and while under water avoided scavangers or were buried in mud. Now we all encounter billions of fossils every day that weren't preserved but were changed and we burn it in our cars; remember oil, compressed primordial forests and sea life. Billions of dinosuars had to exist only a fraction were preserved.
As far as the flood goes nearly all acient people have a flood story. The Sumarians Epic of Gilgamesh perdates the Hebrews by hundreds of years if not more. So some type of epic flood did happen. May be the Hebrews copied the other stories. The Black sea had an ice dam that broke and allowed the Med. to flood in this could be the flood of prehistory.
Alot of the Old Testement is Jewish History and can be documented. I have to agree with Swill as far as the New Testement is concerned. The original word my have been inspired by God but that was 2000 years and 4 languages ago. The Early history of the church is rife with conflict and debate on the nature of Christ, God and the Holy Ghost. The Trinity was a political compromise. Anyone with a contray view was branded a heretic and persecuted. Remember the Nostics and Cathars.
TC :cannon:
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 18 2005, 11:15 AM
"the bible" is a compilation of individual stories/history written approximately 40 yrs after jesus' death. these stories are/were not all that was written about "christ". as christianity began to organize, via endorsement from government as a political ploy to unite citizens, the text was screened for content and benefit for the government's sake. the "bible" is a government document in reality and was farther enhanced by the "ruling government" of king james. when all was said and done it resulted in a "guide for life" promoting only one avenue. only by law and government was the "bible" declared "truth". you could be killed if you thought like me and talked like me. christianity is a young minority religion by comparison and catholicism is the most predominate denomination. protestants are even farther removed from the original practice by their very nature.
Sorry, but the Bible was written by many different authors over a period
of many centuries. The earliest book written was Job. It is thought to
have been written around the time of Abraham. The first 5 books of the
Bible were written by Moses. The Bible was completed around 90 a.d.
when John finished Revelation. Secular History can confirm this.
Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Jan 18 2005, 09:50 AM
Personally, I think creationism and evolution go hand in hand.
See now blender... that is an interesting statement!! i used to think so too... and to a certain extent i still do. Ya just wont find many people that can think this way (applause) I believe that micro-evolution is a valid science. I believe that macro-evolution is just a theory that is full of mistakes. The point I make here and I think blender makes also is this: God is intelligent enough to create a system that is self creating and sustaining ie evolution. here is an even more interesting point and people correct me if i am wrong.... Charles darwin was a christian who believed in a creator God.... his ideas for origin of species were stolen from a student of his... in time his origin of species went on to become the science that proves there is no God... which was not his original intent... his intent was to just gain glory for himself by claiming the ideas as his own. what he ended up with.. welll haha thats what you get. Anyway.... what he first observed in the galapagos finches and other creatures was micro-evolution... species evolve to adapt to their surroundings... a great observation.. it is true. What was speculated from these observations was that species can go from a worm in the sea to a furry mamal on land...macro-evolution.... lol, i dont think so!!!
well the point is that there is some validity to evolution and some problems with it... the problem is macroevolution... the problem is that you cant say that something came from nothing without the help of a creator. but since evolution can be proven wrong... creationists throw out the baby with the bathwater. the same thing happens on the other side of the fence. many who believe in creationism will say that mankind is only 6,000 years old.... therefore radiocarbon dating is false therefore evolution is false and can not in any way back up thier belief in a creator God while the evidence is all around us... yadda yadda this kind of logic is just not right so creationism must be false.. again we throw out the baby with the bath water.
parts of evolution are scientifically provable and parts of intelligent design (creationism) are provable... parts of both are valid science and DO go hand in hand.... they must.... God designed it this way.
edited to add:
btw... i have HEARD that charles darwin was a christian man... that doesnt mean he was right with God... (probably wasnt) just that he claimed to be a christian.
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 18 2005, 11:15 AM
the "bible" is a government document in reality and was farther enhanced by the "ruling government" of king james. when all was said and done it resulted in a "guide for life" promoting only one avenue. only by law and government was the "bible" declared "truth". you could be killed if you thought like me and talked like me. christianity is a young minority religion by comparison and catholicism is the most predominate denomination. protestants are even farther removed from the original practice by their very nature.
Actually King James was requested to organize men to translate the
Bible from it's original language to english which he did and the
work was completed in 1611.
Originally posted by BT 223@Jan 18 2005, 10:55 AM
Okay, some may say this is simple minded. I call it faith.
The Bible is the Inspired inerrant Word of God.
That being said there are many different "translations" out there
(I prefer the term Perversions) So it is easy to see why people can get
confused, imagine a history class with 20 different history books all
saying slightly different things. I believe the Bible for english speaking
people is the KJV 1611.(that will stir up a hornets nest) I believe man has
been around for 6000 years because the Bible teaches that. I believe
the entire earth was flooded because the Bible says so. I believe the earth
divided in the days of Peleg because the Bible says so. etc. etc. etc.
I don't need science to confirm God's word. If I trust Him with my soul why
shouldn't I trust Him in everything. John 1:1 Says "In the beginning was the
Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God".
If I trust in Christ I must trust in His Word as absolute truth.
And ya know, BT, you dont need science to be right with the Lord. You can be wrong about your assumptions of how long mankind has been around, and whether or not the earth was completely flooded in Noah's day.... God never said you have to understand these things to be saved. and for that matter... maybe you are right! but it doesnt matter. leave the science to the ones who want to be scientific about it. SCIENTIFIC proof isnt everything concerning proof of God's existence. indescribeable feeling of God's personal love is also very powerful proof that He exists.... it doesnt exactly prove anything to everybody else, but it proves it to you... that's what matters!
btw, Swill, sorry for bangin ya over the head back there with my 80 pound bible.... just got a lil fired up!
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 18 2005, 11:15 AM
christianity is a young minority religion by comparison and catholicism is the most predominate denomination. protestants are even farther removed from the original practice by their very nature.
Catholicism did not exist untill about 300 a.d. Baptists on the other
hand trace our roots all the way back to the time of Christ through
the Paulicians who were members of Churches like the one in
Jerusalem and Antioch, who fled due to persecution into Armenia.
We Baptists Have gone by many names(Waldenses,Donatists,
Novacians,Anabaptists) just to name a few. This is Documented in
Catholic Church history due to the fact that they persecuted us from
the time they organized. Baptists are not protestants. We never
came out of the Catholic church and actually were persecuted by
many of the reformers like Luther,Calvin and Zwingli because we
preached against things such as infant baptism which many of them
believed in. Luther even once said all Anabaptists should be tortured
to death.
And as someone said.... the bible was not meant to be a science manual.... it serves as a great history book and concerning the nature of God and his plan for man... it's correct!! Scientist and historians can fill in the gaps concerning.... science and history... without at all damaging the purpose of the Bible
The Bible has , however been proven right many times,even recently
When they excavated the ancient city of Jericho, the walls were all
laying flat. Wonder how that happened.
Mighty big twister ah reckon.
Christianity is about ohhhhh...... 2000 years old. as far as it being mainstream... hmmmmm if you add all of the sects of christianity yes its pretty mainstream.... but if you were to count the number of people who actually find favor with God.... (which we can not do and God told us NOT to do... "thou shalt not judge" ) well... i think they are not at all "mainstream." God even said that many will perish and few will be saved.
The Bible says it will be like the days of Noah when Christ returns.
Milions of people on the earth only 8 saved in the ark.
BlenderWizard
01-18-2005, 17:03
Originally posted by BT 223+Jan 18 2005, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BT 223 @ Jan 18 2005, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-swill269@Jan 18 2005, 11:15 AM
"the bible" is a compilation of individual stories/history written approximately 40 yrs after jesus' death. these stories are/were not all that was written about "christ". as christianity began to organize, via endorsement from government as a political ploy to unite citizens, the text was screened for content and benefit for the government's sake. the "bible" is a government document in reality and was farther enhanced by the "ruling government" of king james. when all was said and done it resulted in a "guide for life" promoting only one avenue. only by law and government was the "bible" declared "truth". you could be killed if you thought like me and talked like me. christianity is a young minority religion by comparison and catholicism is the most predominate denomination. protestants are even farther removed from the original practice by their very nature.
Sorry, but the Bible was written by many different authors over a period
of many centuries. The earliest book written was Job. It is thought to
have been written around the time of Abraham. The first 5 books of the
Bible were written by Moses. The Bible was completed around 90 a.d.
when John finished Revelation. Secular History can confirm this. [/b][/quote]
I think Swill might have been referring to the New Testament
swill269
01-18-2005, 19:02
:o
now your in your corner and preaching like he)).
look at the dialog, if i was talking you would have all been shouting over me to make the same moot/dead point.
your dialog is ramblings of testimony/defence/fear/anger like the christians i know, but thought you were not.
the new testement is more in line with christianity where as the old testement is old hebrew myth and skulduggery. i can not accept anything from it.
let's just give carbon dating 6000 years plus and minus (12,000) of error factor. you still do not have a leg to stand on, but rumors and propaganda so old nobody knows where it came from, information no court in the world would accept.
geologists and archaeologist are working together now to determine how walls fall down and fires burn in the ground and fishing villages wind up 50 miles from the nearest water and civilizations just disappear seemingly over night and so on. if you do not take new information into the picture, you are not looking at the real picture, sorry.
if you want to make the bible real and do it in a beneficial way for all mankind; i say "practice it, do not preach it" "actions speak louder than words" "do unto others as you would have others do unto you".
you do not need to know "god" to be good, but many of the weak need daily, hourly, reminding to keep from falling into temptation, the rest are probably your enimies. i am reminded daily by the actions of those around me, what not to do.
:cool:
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 18 2005, 06:02 PM
if i was talking you would have all been shouting over me to make the same moot/dead point.
your dialog is ramblings of testimony/defence/fear/anger like the christians i know, but thought you were not.
the new testement is more in line with christianity where as the old testement is old hebrew myth and skulduggery. i can not accept anything from it.
(shakes his head in disappointment)
its as if someone went into the AR forum proclaiming that the AR is crap!
who here would just accept that?
frankly, I am surprised... you're antagonizing our discussion and getting us all rauled up. I have offered a lot of sound argument and proof which is being ignored!! (maybe because it's too sound to be refuted so try a different angle, i dunno)
Are ya here to discuss religion or tell us all were idiots for believing this crap?
C'mon man!! There must be a better reason to be keeping up with us.
swill269
01-18-2005, 22:32
:o
tunug,
is the real you is coming out; do you resort to name calling/negativity/personal degredation (antagonizing) when you are pressured.
you have offered NO proof. you just put the same ole crap on the table and hoped it would fly. i'm not trying to get anyone "riled" up. if i have, i only know of you right now. let the others speak for themselves. :ph34r:
what made you think because you got a religious chit-chat forum i was not going to bring my values/POV on the subject?
tell you what i'll do. i won't directly respond to anything you write/say and you do likewise. i have the right to debate the subject but i will exclude your comment contents from my replies. :beer:
if anyone else here thinks i should leave/shut up on the religious forum, let me know right here. just two to one is all it will take. ;) :usa:
:cool:
sperm and egg (1 cell each) form a zygote (now only 2 cells), zygote is controled by genetics and DNA mapping contained in both single cells. as cells develope they mutate from zygote to heart, lung, kidney, brain, etc. as they reach developement and become completely different cells, they are also programed to stop when fully developed. the body can mutate into something unrecognizable if it is not controlled by genetics. cancers, we are not born with, are a common cell mutation which "evolve" from the introduction of some unknown element/stimulant/carcinogen.
Swill, I love that you are here.
Prov 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.
I think you are correct speaking about cells being programmed (speaking of programmed, Who is the programmer?), but mutations by definition are not beneficial ie. cancer. Mutations do not evolve into improvements.
We all have gotten a little off the topic about making either a case for evolution or creation.
In The Origin of Species Darwin stated:
'If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.'
A system which meets Darwin's criterion is one which exhibits irreducible complexity. By irreducible complexity I mean a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning.
The Eye. Darwin says, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I frankly confess absurd in the highest degree." After admitting that it "seems absurd in the highest degree," he proceeds, as if it were certainly true. Darwin has been admired for his candor, but not for his consistency. After admitting that an objection is insuperable, he goes on as if it had little or no weight and many of his followers take the same unscientific attitude. They try to establish their theory in spite of overwhelming arguments.
The eye is so wonderful in its powers, and delicate adjustments, that we stand amazed at the evidences of design, and at the wisdom of the Maker of the eye, are exceeding the highest inventive genius of man. To say that this is the result of "natural selection, is absurd and ridiculous. Evolution eliminates design, mind, and an active and ever present God, and substitutes blind chance or natural selection, dubs it "science" and asks the world to believe it!
from 1925 By REV. WILLIAM A. WILLIAMS
swill269
01-19-2005, 00:37
:o
cabdmd,
Prov 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.
are you impling i am making tunug show his "metal"? ;) maybe i am, if so, i am not impressed; others appear superior. i will explain if i need to. :lol:
yeah, i'm the one everybody use to bounce their ideas/plans/designs off of because i could tear it apart and show them its weakness/fault/short comings/loop holes and so on. only if there were any. a sound idea will hold up under scrutiny and stand the test of time.
i tend to believe that darwin was so awe struck, he had trouble grasping what he was on to. not believing it, but promoting it like christianity or any other answer to "where did we come from" "where are we going". this has intrigued man since his begining and there are many answers out there but not one that satisfies all.
the bible has not stood the test of time as may have been intended. it still works for some but most today want some magic/healing from it and rely on it to answer all their questions about life. you must look inside yourself for your answers. you become what you choose and you progress as far as you feel safe. when the absolute answer is delivered, there will be no doubts/nonbelievers/unsure because it will be as plain as day.
the eye today is no more of a "wonderment" than the foot. we can duplicate one mechanically, repair one electronically and prick the nerve in the brain to make it wink. it took a long time for us to get to "today" and it will take a long time to figure out how we did it. in the mean time we keep looking and uncovering things we did not know and some do not want to know.
i will ask you this, where did your god come from and when? what makes him the one when so many others are in competition and have been for thousands of years longer than the christian god.
you and i choose to believe what we want to, real or imagined. to debate that here is like a blind man trying to focus a pair of binoculars, he knows it is there somewhere but just can see/find it. if someone stands up and tells me they are right and i am wrong, i want them to prove it. if they can not, then do not call me wrong. i do not call you/them wrong, i just don't believe it. :beer:
:cool:
BlenderWizard
01-19-2005, 07:23
Originally posted by cabdmd@Jan 19 2005, 01:07 AM
from 1925 By REV. WILLIAM A. WILLIAMS
1925?!?! A bit outdated wouldn't you say?
i will ask you this, where did your god come from and when? what makes him the one when so many others are in competition and have been for thousands of years longer than the christian god.
Swill,
Although we want to understand and have answers for questions like this, we can't answer where God came from. You want proof, consider the exodus from Egypt (remember the movie) when the Israelites saw all the plagues that preceded their exit and the parting of the Red Sea. Moses after this went up the mountain to receive the Ten Commandments and was told to keep the people off the base of the mountain 'lest they die'. The people were happy to oblige, but while waiting for Moses they made the golden calf and called it their god. All this after witnessing all they had. They knew that God was real, but they wanted to do what they wanted.
It all come down to a matter of man's heart.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
1925?!?! A bit outdated wouldn't you say?
It is the same topic and discussion then as now.
swill269
01-19-2005, 09:03
:o
cabdmd,
the issue is the same but the references/analogy are out of date to create an "awe" example. this is part of my plight, the "antiquity" of the bible and how some wish to follow it to the letter. even after "old wonderments" become unraveled to the point they are common knowledge. you can beat me with the bible til my ears bleed and i will never accept the earth as being only 6000 yr old.
before i can get into the idea of text being written from hearsay, recorded at least 40 yrs after the event and translated numerous times, being the "gospel"; i need 21st century evidence. the latest info has been on the history channel. it is new and different but adds nothing relevant to the "big answer". i watch more stuff like that than most christians i know and i know more about christianity than they do.
i support the philosophy of the bible 100% and live by the christian standard, "do unto others..." whenever i am in discussion with christians about religious issues and they fly off the handle in anger and attack my literacy/character/person; i can not help but feel like they are trying to convince themselves not me. on the other hand an insightful/intelligent/respectful debate is always refreshing and rewarding to me. i had much rather disagree on the issuse and agree to remain friends with differences.
i never start a religious discussion but i will start a debate on who is right or wrong when a zealot puts me or anyone else down for my/their belief over theirs. since the christian "mission" is to convert, by nature many will put you down and attempt conversion. they only provoke contempt in me.
:cool:
BlenderWizard
01-19-2005, 10:30
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 19 2005, 11:03 AM
:o
cabdmd,
the issue is the same but the references/analogy are out of date to create an "awe" example. this is part of my plight, the "antiquity" of the bible and how some wish to follow it to the letter. even after "old wonderments" become unraveled to the point they are common knowledge. you can beat me with the bible til my ears bleed and i will never accept the earth as being only 6000 yr old.
before i can get into the idea of text being written from hearsay, recorded at least 40 yrs after the event and translated numerous times, being the "gospel"; i need 21st century evidence. the latest info has been on the history channel. it is new and different but adds nothing relevant to the "big answer". i watch more stuff like that than most christians i know and i know more about christianity than they do.
i support the philosophy of the bible 100% and live by the christian standard, "do unto others..." whenever i am in discussion with christians about religious issues and they fly off the handle in anger and attack my literacy/character/person; i can not help but feel like they are trying to convince themselves not me. on the other hand an insightful/intelligent/respectful debate is always refreshing and rewarding to me. i had much rather disagree on the issuse and agree to remain friends with differences.
i never start a religious discussion but i will start a debate on who is right or wrong when a zealot puts me or anyone else down for my/their belief over theirs. since the christian "mission" is to convert, by nature many will put you down and attempt conversion. they only provoke contempt in me.
:cool:
Damn, Swill, it's nice you got my back. That's pretty much what I was thinking, but I just can't seem to pull my self in far enough to explain my thoughts, as I don't see how or why someone should need an explanation. But, Cab, to clarify on my last post about it being outdated, scroll back up and read what Swill wrote. Ok, now go back and read it again.
Steve, Christians are on earth for one purpose, to make it a better place. I don't know who or what christians you know, but it's not my place to judge you based on what you believe. Take this example. If you were walking along, minding your own business and you saw a small child drowning in a pond, no body else around, you're the only one around and the kid is going under. Would you jump in and save this innocent child's life, or would you just walk away?
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 18 2005, 09:02 PM
look at the dialog, if i was talking you would have all been shouting over me to make the same moot/dead point.
your dialog is ramblings of testimony/defence/fear/anger like the christians i know, but thought you were not.
the new testement is more in line with christianity where as the old testement is old hebrew myth and skulduggery.* i can not accept anything from it.
Another quote from Swill "tunug, is the real you is coming out; do you resort to name calling/negativity/personal degredation (antagonizing) when you are pressured.
As far as negativity and antagonizing... no man, read your own recent posts bro, it's you. I haven't done any name calling or personal degradation... YET.... I was politely telling you that you are acting like a child!!!
look man... you are the one in a religious forum telling us our religion is crap and our God is make believe... you are the one telling the good folks here that their "dialog is ramblings of testimony/defence/fear/anger like the christians i know, but thought you were not."... "the same moot/dead point" and saying our Bible is "old hebrew myth and skulduggery" and I merely bring your antagonism to your attention and you say im full of crap? and the "real me is coming out"?
dude the real me has always been here and I am telling you that you sound like a silly little child.... and ya... you are riling us up, obviously you can see that you are by the quotes you posted from others in this thread.
It's a religious forum.... and the only one here telling us that were full of crap is you.. so I would say that it is the real you coming out!! so... ya it would be fine with me if you would just drop it and... ya, shove off mate... you haven't brought anything worthy to the table either. I'm not gonna keep up with this thread any more and I certainly won't engage in any discussions with you either dude.... my motto? I don't argue with idiots, they will try to drag me down to their level and beat me with experience! No Thanks!
Phil 2:4 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
Can we tone down the temper here? Hey, we Christians are supposed to set a good example.
1cor 10:31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
swill269
01-19-2005, 21:45
:o
cabdmd,
thanks, i appreciate your concern/intrest here. i have stated my POV and to grind on it any farther here would be a mistake. i will not defend it any farther in this post. :)
i'll stick around though, might learn something, that is why i am here. ;) :beer: :usa:
:cool:
Swill,
God Bless you. You have to know that Swordslinger and I are praying for you.
Craig
swill269
01-19-2005, 22:00
:o
lendell,
i would jump in, the same as most.
let me ask you how you would deal with another situation.
you and your best bud are out cruising and your bud is driving. your bud is distracted for a second and runs into a parked car real hard. the vehicle your in will not move any farther, your bud turns to you and says he does not have a driver's license, he lost it for DUI. he askes you to say you were driving and tells you he had three beers before he picked you up.
what would you do? ;)
:cool:
swill269
01-19-2005, 22:07
:o
cabdmd,
i appreciate it men, many others need it more than i. :( i can handle it OK, just turn the other... and be better for it. :beer: :usa:
:cool:
tunug,
carry on mate, give em hell. ;)
steve
BlenderWizard
01-19-2005, 22:25
Originally posted by cabdmd@Jan 19 2005, 11:55 PM
Swill,
God Bless you. You have to know that Swordslinger and I are praying for you.
Craig
I'll tell you something, Cab, that is a really bad attitude to have. You don't need to pray for someone because you disagree with them. What happened to, Judge not, lest ye be judged?" In your mind Swill and my self are "evil" or whatever because we disagree with you. I don't think you're evil or whatever because you disagree with us, I know you are entitled to your own opinion, and I have the right to disagree with you, but I don't think "you're not right with God" for disagreeing with me. I don't think anyone is "not right with God;" it's not my place to even think about that. Also, after doing busiess in my are for the past 5 years or so, I've found the people you really have to try to avoid are those "Christians" who say things like "That's not very Christian of you" or "I'll pray for you" because they somehow see something you did as wrong. People who say things like that to others give Christianity a bad name. You can pray for Swill if you want, but I don't want you praying for me; I like my opinion, which happens to coincide with Swill's.
Blenderwizard,
You have NO idea about what I pray, and the post is intended to be a blessing for swill. It most certainly is not about judging. If I am to judge (not condemn) anyone, it is those within the church.
swill269
01-19-2005, 22:52
:o
blenderwizard,
thanks, but cabdmd or swordslinger are not being "tacky" but sincere. it's like saying "i'll be thinking about you" in "Christian". :lol: "all is well that ends well."
they are on our side too. ;) easy does it. :beer:
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-20-2005, 08:53
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 20 2005, 05:00 AM
:o
lendell,
i would jump in, the same as most.
let me ask you how you would deal with another situation.
you and your best bud are out cruising and your bud is driving.* your bud is distracted for a second and runs into a parked car real hard.* the vehicle your in will not move any farther, your bud turns to you and says he does not have a driver's license, he lost it for DUI.* he askes you to say you were driving and tells you he had three beers before he picked you up.
what would you do? ;)
:cool:
I would get in the drivers seat, and lie like heck!!! Dont be too hard on me Brothers, I can show you where it is ok to tell these so called "authorities" (who are NOT the government of Romans 13, you can tell by their fruits)anything to save yourself from there heavey handed rule. Plus, you get a chance to wittness to the driver without starting a prison ministry.
The point I was trying to make is that christians are supposed to be trying to save people, not trying to condemn them. Hmm, that's a tough one, but I'd have to let him deal with it. He should have known better than to drive drunk. If I took the rap, he'd just do it again. But if I'd have known he was drunk, I'd have tricked him into letting me drive. There's no way I'd let him drive drunk.
swill269
01-20-2005, 10:33
:o
lendell,
it is hard to say what a christian is "supposed" to do, they struggle with this themselves. but if you go along with "do unto others..." then these guys are paying me a compliment in a serious way. :beer:
i hope you get my drift man. ;)
swordslinger,
"two wrongs do not a right make" and this would be three; because he is being punished for doing it in the first place. he must learn the lesson, and you must not incriminate yourself. he should "GO STRAIGHT TO JAIL; DO NOT COLLECT $200". not a good answer. :eek:
you must set a better example for an atheist. :lol: :lol: :lol:
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-20-2005, 17:45
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 20 2005, 05:33 PM
you must set a better example for an atheist. :lol:* :lol:* :lol:
:cool:
Brethren, take it easy on me. Your are about to be exposed to truths not taught in church-houses, out of fear of loseing thier 501-C3 Tax exempt status. If you condem me for saying it, your are throwing out the word of God. Ihave the same Bible that you do, ok. :)
Atheiests, I dont expect it to matter much to you anyway, so my wittness is there for the takeing if you choose to accept it. If its sheds a different light on what you thought was the way I think, good. :)
Steve,
Sorry to confuse you, but that was the Biblical answer. In saying this government is not the government of Romans 13, I state that because of the evils that we see that the Bible does not allow. This, according to The Word is a corrupt civil government.
Question: Is there any cases in the Bible The Word of God) were people lied to corrupt (non-Romans 13 gov.) and God blessed them for it? (Bretheren, before quoting Romans, where it says all governments are appointed by God, think. Does this mean Hitler's government, Stalin's government and Sadam's goverment too? Or could it be speaking of Kingdom Government?)
Answer: Pharoh told the Hebrew midwives to kill all of the male hebrew babies as they were born.
Exodus 1:17 " But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive."
Exodus 1:18 "And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?"
Exodus 1:19 "And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them." (LIED)
And did God bless them for it?
Exodus 1:20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. YES!
Exodus 1:21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses. And YES AGAIN!
Another example:
Judges 3:16 "But Ehud made him a dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his raiment upon his right thigh.
Judges 3:20 And Ehud came unto him; and he was sitting in a summer parlor, which he had for himself alone. And Ehud said, I have a message from God unto thee. And he arose out of his seat. LIED!
Judges 3:21 And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly:
Was Ehud blessed? Well He was made a Judge over all Israel. YES!
Another example: Rahab Hid the Israelite Spys, when the kings men came a lookin, she said I aint seen em. (Swordslinger paraphrase)
Joshua 6:17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent. LIED(and she and her house were blessed) YES!
For the New Testament Christians:
Hebrews 11:31 "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." (Being mentioned in the faith hall of fame, Hebrews chapter 11, Id say that a blessing in and of itself.)
Did our King say He was not going to do something, but secretly do it anyway, because of a corrupt civil government?
John 7:8 "Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. YES!
9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
10But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. 11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?" Why? Becuase of corrupt civil government.
Am I saying it is right to go around lieing to everyone? NO!!! But the example you provided, was one of a corupt government restricting people from transportation. In commie Russia and Facist Germany, they said, "Papers, show me your papers" In our country they say, "Licence and registration and proof of insurance". Whats the difference. :blink: WAKE UP SHEEP!!
You see, Im am speaking from the Kingdom perspective. As Christians, under a corrupt civil gov. we are not required to follow their orders. We are under a different juristiction. Will we go to jail? Yes, but "they" will have heaven to pay, because God is keeping score for us. Now, I do admit than when in Babylon, like Daniel, we must do as the Babylonians to survive.
Being a Christian is about freedom, not oppression.
Do I think everyone will read the examples that I have shown? No. But thats the way I think, and this is the "Religion" forum, aka, "Bill's Church" so I guess Ihave the right to explain my way of thinking here. At least for now anyway. Until he decides to run of all the Hairy Christians for not buying beer.:lol:
Oh and Steve, in your example of a budy causing me to have to do this for him, when the cops left , I'd kick his as$!!!! He would learn if our laws were not desinged to increase income, but were designed to bring justice.
Have fun with that Y'all. :) Those that care to read it anyway, Iknow its long.
YourLocalNerd
01-20-2005, 17:59
Sword you have some VERY good points. At first I disagreed with ya (in your original post) but now I can understand your reasoning. I am not sure if I can say that I totally agree with you on that, but I would (and would have before) in a "bigger" situation.
Very well said Sir!!
cheers bro!!
Swordslinger
01-20-2005, 18:24
Originally posted by YourLocalNerd@Jan 21 2005, 12:59 AM
Sword you have some VERY good points. At first I disagreed with ya (in your original post) but now I can understand your reasoning. I am not sure if I can say that I totally agree with you on that, but I would (and would have before) in a "bigger" situation.
Very well said Sir!!
cheers bro!!
Yeah, I was just waiting for someone to respond to my orginal post while gone today. And Steve did, as I expected. :) Im pretty sure it was trap set so that anyway a Christian would answer, he would have a come back. I dont think he expected the examples that I gave him, but most folks are not aware of the teachings, due to the Baal Priests that pervert God's Word to fatten thier pocket books. I know the examples were a little extreme compared to DUI, but thats all he gave me to work with. :)
Swordslinger
01-20-2005, 20:37
Oh....Steve, when I said , "WAKE UP SHEEP" I was not reffering to you, just "judeo"Chistiandom in general. I was not name calling, and I know you wont take it that way. But some might. :)
As Christians we have a higher Authority to whom to be accountable. We are to be obedient to government so long as it is not disobedient to God. I can't imagine that today is any more corrupt than Rome.
swill269
01-21-2005, 16:57
:o
swordslinger,
i had to ponder your remarks for a spell. :rolleyes:
you know what i think of the new testement so i won't go into that. i don't set traps intentionally or otherwise that i am aware of. i just give my response to the dialog. i came up with the analogy in response to lendell's.
i thought most everyone would respond like lendell. i forgot you are the "christian extremist" by your own admission. :lol: i was not aware as to what extreme. :ph34r: i too feel squeezed by the government, especially this administration. i guess i feel like "when in rome do as the romans" and you seem to "do like the jews". :lol: i'm saying you can't play baseball with a football. you have to play the "house" game and by "house" rules, when your in the house.
the "bud" ain't learned nothin' but physical violence is acceptable for punishment and you will lie for him. his insurance will pay damages and probably be canceled. you will get moving violation points on your record and maybe premium increase plus fine. and if there should happen to be a witness there might be a felony in there.
just having the DUI to work with is like life, you can't pick and choose. you get what you are delt. i would hope you are not the devious person you make yourself out to be. i also would hope you would not do something in the name of your "god" which might cause undue harm or suffering to someone else. personally i don't think you would, but your remarks are unsettling. ;)
:cool:
P.S. i know i ain't no sheep. :beer:
Swordslinger
01-21-2005, 18:16
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 21 2005, 11:57 PM
and you seem to "do like the jews". :lol:
Nope!! An Israelite!! Big difference!! ;) For those that care enough to search it out. Im not going into that here.
My remarks were meant to be "unsettling". Because our people have settled for being though of as second class citizens, when we are in Fact, The sons of God. The sad thing is they have been taught this by their very own "pastors" in order to protect the "in-flow".
I know you are not a sheep. But I humbly admitt that I am a sheep, and so are those that hear the Shepards voice.
John 10:27
" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Only one group of folks were referred to as "sheep".
You have nothing to worry about mate. ;)
Swordslinger
01-21-2005, 18:32
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 21 2005, 11:57 PM
devious person you make yourself out to be.
."...devious???"
devious [di:vi:əs]
A adjective
1 devious, oblique
indirect in departing from the accepted or proper way; misleading; "used devious means to achieve success"; "gave oblique answers to direct questions"; "oblique political maneuvers"
2 devious, shifty
characterized by insincerity or deceit; evasive; "a devious character"; "shifty eyes"
Excuse me????? I answered your question pretty straight forward, I did not mislead, I was not insincere, I did not evade the question, nor did my eyes shift as I was typing. :lol: As far as lieing to corrupt civil government, as in telling Hitler's stormtroopers that, "Ann Frank?, no one by that name here" when she is in my attic, then yes, by your definition, I am devious.
Poor choice of words mate. You must set a better example for us poor weak Christians. :lol:
And by the way. As far as physical violence not helping this so called make believe best buddy, maybe if he had a few more as$ whoopins earlier in life he wouldnt have been driveing (not drunk) with three beers in his system. I certainly know better than to do that. And I dont choose my friends from amoung the ranks of the stupid. :)
darjeeling
01-21-2005, 19:04
Originally posted by cabdmd@Jan 18 2005, 10:07 PM
The Eye. Darwin says, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I frankly confess absurd in the highest degree." After admitting that it "seems absurd in the highest degree," he proceeds, as if it were certainly true. Darwin has been admired for his candor, but not for his consistency. After admitting that an objection is insuperable, he goes on as if it had little or no weight and many of his followers take the same unscientific attitude. They try to establish their theory in spite of overwhelming arguments.
The eye is so wonderful in its powers, and delicate adjustments, that we stand amazed at the evidences of design, and at the wisdom of the Maker of the eye, are exceeding the highest inventive genius of man. To say that this is the result of "natural selection, is absurd and ridiculous. Evolution eliminates design, mind, and an active and ever present God, and substitutes blind chance or natural selection, dubs it "science" and asks the world to believe it!
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but from an optical standpoint, the human eye is a horribly inefficent device, and if designed was designed very poorly. As we know no better than our own eyesight, and since our vision is still incredible by our standards, the eye seems to be a miracle of ingenious design. Probably the most efficent eye existent in the animal kingdom is that of the insect, whose resolution and color accuity is many times better than human.
Oh, and on that drunk driving thing I'm with swill. My take on this is we can only help our bretheren by letting them come to grips with their sin. This drunk, no license carrying friend will most likely never realize their error unless they have to own up to the concequences of their own action. It may be nice to take the rap, expecially when he'd go to jail for it, but you will not be helping him one iota. Christianity is a life learning experience of trying to become the best person you can posibly become and helping those around you do the same. If people are insulated from the consequences of their own actions, they will never learn responsibility and all the virtues which come from this bedrock virtue. If you can never own your fate and never admit culpablility for your lifes actions and inaction, you can never truly be worthy of being saved.
swill269
01-21-2005, 19:28
:o
swordslinger,
the devious act i refer to is lying for a friend who is wrong by any standard for the second offense. ;) not lying to save innocent lives from a "known" evil. would you lie for him if he ran over "ann" and killed her? :(
IMHO both definitions fit, especially the one where you shift (as in seats) :lol:
:cool:
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but from an optical standpoint, the human eye is a horribly inefficent device
While it is certainly true that other species have better visiop than man for instance an eagle. The point here is that an eye has to devop as an intact system rather than evolve as an adaptation. This is what Darwin acknowledged.
Swordslinger
01-21-2005, 19:51
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 22 2005, 02:28 AM
IMHO both definitions fit, especially the one where you shift (as in seats) :lol:
:cool:
I may have scooted into the drivers seat, for a true friend, that wasnt drunk by the way ;) , your make believe "best bud" only had three beers, and my nake believe bud wieghs 300 lbs. :lol: . You can get a DUI for drinkin three beers, and not be drunk. He was probably pulled over for some stupid crap under the patriot act. So as far as Im concerned, the guy was inocent to start with,(since this is make believe) and was being bullied by corrupt gov. to being with, gettin fat off his fines. (ie redistribution of wealth.) Only a corrupt gov restricts tranportation, with out the approved papers, and harasses its citizens with unconstitutional and un-Biblical laws . (Is this the God room? I can say that right?) :)
Like I said before, you posed this question as a "best bud", and like I said, I dont choose my friends from among the stupid. If the guy was a drunken bum, then he wouldnt have been in the car with me to begin with, let alone, my "best bud". :lol: But you did say "best bud", so I take my own liberties from there, ok. :lol:
As far as tellin on this "best bud" for running over Ann Frank, like I said, I would protect her from corrupt civil gov., as well as I would protect you. So, if I were in this make believe car, with a make believe "best bud", I would have prevented him from running over the little lass, and gave him an as$-whoopin when the car stopped. :lol: I wouldnt let this make believe guy run over you either, Steve. :)
I may have "shifted" into the drivers seat for a true, inocent friend, but I will NOT "shift" in any of my positions intentionaly. Unless....I found that my positions were in error, then I would repent (change). As any Christian should do.
Oh and BTW....Thank for the "Christian Extremist" complement. We are supposed to be Christ-Like as Christians, and if He wasnt/isnt an "extremist", I dont know what is. ;)
Signed:
Swordslinger the Devioushttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smiley_evilGrin.gif
Swordslinger
01-21-2005, 22:46
Anyone here hear those crickets?
[silence----only the sound of crickets chirping...rubbing their hairy legs together].................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Swordslinger the Devious http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smiley_evilGrin.gif.........quietly walks away.....
Good night all.....[ sound of footsteps cloping along a boardwalk like in a western movie]
Swordslinger
01-22-2005, 15:49
[Swordslinger comes back the next day]
Anyone here hear those crickets?
[silence----only the sound of crickets chirping...rubbing their hairy legs together].................................................. .................................
Swordslinger the Devious http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smiley_evilGrin.gif.........quietly walks away.....again.....
[sound of footsteps cloping along a boardwalk like in a western movie]
I think a thread will die when it gets off course like this one has. Just start a new topic to inspired more talk and fellowship. :D
-tri :usa:
It was a good thread Tri! But, yeah it began to die a horrible death when it was derailed and made ugly. Thank God someone was there with a sword to put it out of its misery.
Carry on mates!
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 22 2005, 09:33 PM
I think a thread will die when it gets off course like this one has. Just start a new topic to inspired more talk and fellowship. :D
-tri :usa:
Here is a new topic... I hope we can all take the time to check out the link i posted, listen to the answers presented, and hopefully be inspired this Sunday.
http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.p...showtopic=13620 (http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13620)
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