View Full Version : Is Christianity the One True Religion?
Why are Christians so arrogant in claiming that they alone possess the truth? Don't all religions lead to God?
A number of people equate religious tolerance with religious truth. Many assume that all religions are basically the same and that all beliefs are equally valid. They picture each religion as having identical faces hidden behind different masks.
However, sound reasoning tells us that all religions are not essentially the same merely because they contain some similarities. A brief survey of a few religions quickly reveals that each has competing, mutually exclusive claims. How, for example, can someone logically square the Hindu teaching that the universe is God with the Muslim belief that Allah, the God of Islam, is distinct from the universe? Thus, religions harbor irreconcilable differences, demonstrating that they cannot all possibly lead to the same God. Logically speaking, they can all be wrong, but they cannot all be right.
We, therefore, need to ask which religion points to the right God and consider how certain its claims really are. Regarding these questions, Christianity towers above the other religions of the world. For instance, while every other religion would have humanity try to reach up to God, Christianity says God reaches down to humanity. In other words, God's favor was obtained for humankind by Christ's life, death, and resurrection, and not by our own human merit (Eph. 2:8-9).
Furthermore, the Lord Jesus, who is God Himself cloaked in human flesh (John 1:1; 14), always backed His pronouncements with His own miracles (John 10:38), the culmination of which was His bodily resurrection from the dead (Matt. 28:6). None of the other religious figures throughout history have ever justified their respective claims with such power and authority. All people, regardless of their religious circumstances, need to hear and heed Christ's message because Jesus pointed to Himself as the only way to God (John 14:6).
This is an article from the Christian Research Institute.
Craig
Swordslinger
01-09-2005, 20:51
Well, It certainly is for me and my house. I am Christian, and consider myself to be HIGHLY intolerant of other religions in my personal circles. But they have that right under the current laws, and as long as they do not threaten the health, safety, and welfare of my family we will be fine.
But, The Day will come when every knee shall bow!! Praise YaH!!!http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smilesmiley2.gif
Joshua 24:15
" And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;........... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Metaldoc
01-10-2005, 16:55
It's kind of hard to understand those that deny Christ's deity, yet say He was a man of unusual wisdom and high character. They admire his teachings and endorse the values He taught.
Now, if they validate His teachings and declare Him to be of good character, how can they accuse Him of being a liar? Jesus Christ, in no uncertain terms, laid claim to being the very Son of God.
The doubters contradict themselves in their efforts to deny God.
Metaldoc
Swordslinger
01-10-2005, 17:06
Originally posted by Metaldoc@Jan 10 2005, 11:55 PM
Now, if they validate His teachings and declare Him to be of good character, how can they accuse Him of being a liar?
AMEN!!!! Doc!!
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Wouldn't it be funny if everyone was wrong and this is all there is? :blink:
:sniper:
GREYBEAR
01-10-2005, 17:53
Couldn't it be said that we were all the SONS & DAUGHTERS of GOD?
:beer: :rapid:
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
This is the hope that we as Christians have within us... that Jesus died for my sins.
How many of my sins had I when that happened? None, they were all future even the ones I have yet to commit as He paid that price 1900 + years ago. We will rise again also. You see your soul lives foreverrrrrrrrrrr.
The question is will you be in His presence or not?
Swordslinger
01-10-2005, 18:11
Originally posted by GREYBEAR@Jan 11 2005, 12:53 AM
Couldn't it be said that we were all the SONS & DAUGHTERS of GOD?
:beer:* :rapid:
Then what about the enemies of God? I think their is a real distinction between who are the "sons of God" and who are not, but are enemies of God and His People. But it is from scripture, so if people do not hold scripture up to the level that it is presented, then it does no good. The Holy Spirit is the one to reveal knowledge, as Christians, it is our responsibilty to tell folks HOW to recieve the Holy Spirit, once they get it, new things are reaveled to them that would not be accepted before. Things that you would have thought to be heresy before, now reveals itself to be truth that has been covered up by men seeking power.
The Word of God tells us how to "recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit". If one cares to find out how, they just need to follow the recipe in my sig line. There is a reason that I leave it everywhere I go. Its not out of trying to be "holier than thou" as Ive been accused of, its out of love and obedience to my King. :) Im no doubt the one who needs His Spirit the most. Cause Im a Bad, Bad man. :(
Couldn't it be said that we were all the SONS & DAUGHTERS of GOD?
Eph 2:2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
The phrase (according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience) is a reference to the Devil.
The human race is always trying to worship something, another thing that separates us from animals. The head guy of the church of scientolgy told everyone that he made it up but hollywood actors give thier alligance to.
Every body is looking for something more, instead of something simple.
Man is not perfect in his ways of trying to convince the world of what he has found in Christ. What a great nation we have founded on Christanity, no other nation can compare to what we can give. The other nations that follow Islam, Buddist, athesis, or agnostic government views depend on the US and its Christian majority.
-tri :usa:
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 10 2005, 07:32 PM
The human race is always trying to worship something, another thing that separates us from animals.
Good point.
A primary thing that separates us from animals is our ability to reason and the fact that we acknowledge our own existence, as well as a time frame for that existence.
Tankcommander
01-11-2005, 16:05
Guys this is deep stuff, But even the Christains have fragmented into several sects are they all right? Catholic vs Protestan vs Lutherain vs Baptist ETC.. are all of them right even though they differ in some of their core beliefs. The message of Jesus has been translated edited and interpreted for 1900 years how much of it is the pure word of Christ. If memory serves the first gospels were written decades after his death.
I minored in religion in college and one thing I learned was how the organized religions twisted the word of God to suit the desires of men. A major dispute in the 4th or 5th century about the nature of Christ, man vs god was settled with a vote to repair the scism and all dissenters were crushed.
I think I'd prefer the Viking religion die with your sword(or mini-14) in your hand have a Viking funeral and go to Vallhalla to sit beside Odin.
TC
GREYBEAR
01-11-2005, 17:03
TC, you think as I do. Religion as it has always been is nothing more than one mans or group of men way of controlling others, whether it was a tribal Shaman or good upstanding Christians such as Jim Baker or even Jim Jones.
:beer: :rapid:
Metaldoc
01-11-2005, 17:15
Originally posted by GREYBEAR@Jan 11 2005, 06:03 PM
or good upstanding Christians such as Jim Baker or even Jim Jones.
:o :huh:
That's like judging every woman in the world based on Hillary Clinton. :(
Not realistic and not a fair call. Kind of a low blow in fact.
Metaldoc
swill269
01-11-2005, 17:43
:o
the teachings of buddha are just that, not gospel or favoring one "god" over another. they teach that you should respect all peoples god/beliefs and that you are your own product of life; you are what you make yourself.
there is no honest/truthful court in the world which would or could say the bible is absolute and that god is real. if god/good is anywhere, it is in your heart/thoughts/actions. the bible is a plea for humanity to get their sh## together and love your fellow man. for every time you hear someone say "i love..." you hear ten more say "i hate...". it is more human nature to be defensive/doubting than loving/accepting. this is the same in the "animal" kingdom only it is not cluttered or disguised with the ability to place "faith" in a superior/imagined being. animals will defend/fight to the death to protect/live. they are not confused by religious convictions or teachings to do what comes natural.
we on the other hand place to much value/faith in a belief/ideology to the point we will kill a nonbeliever for that very reason alone. an atheist is pure of religious prejudice and no holy war is fought because they can't/won't do anything else but prove their god is best. man is the only creature/animal which will assault you for your belief/ideas. man is worse than a scared rabbit when it comes to a new idea and he will pray that it does not effect his environment and kill if he thinks it will. most of the nasty heat and arguing i have witnessed here is fear/disaggreement of/with ones beliefs, politics and personal values pitted against another. :eek: i don't brag about being human because i know a herd of cows are not going to nuke me for being atheist, christian, etc., but a human could/would.
religion is a man made thing like money, jobs, etc. therefore it is flawed with human frailties and weaknesses. religion is not salvation but damnation in the overall scheme of all things real in life.
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and everything will be all right. don't worry about what they believe/think/say, but what they DO.
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 17:57
Originally posted by Metaldoc+Jan 12 2005, 12:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Metaldoc @ Jan 12 2005, 12:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-GREYBEAR@Jan 11 2005, 06:03 PM
or good upstanding Christians such as Jim Baker or even Jim Jones.
:o :huh:
That's like judging every woman in the world based on Hillary Clinton. :(
Not realistic and not a fair call. Kind of a low blow in fact.
Metaldoc [/b][/quote]
Indeed!!
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 17:58
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 12 2005, 12:43 AM
an atheist is pure of religious prejudice......
Really? <_< Dosnt "prejudice" mean to "pre-judge"?
swill269
01-11-2005, 18:01
:o
to make my point of the "HATE" syndrome, we now have a hate poll going. it could have just as easily been a "LIKE" poll :rolleyes:
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 18:02
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 12 2005, 01:01 AM
:o
to make my point of the "HATE" syndrome, we now have a hate poll going. it could have just as easily been a "LIKE" poll* :rolleyes:
:cool:
Actually, it is a "suck" poll. :lol:
Actually, LOVE is about the ONLY thing taught in the mainstream churches these days. I will give you some fuel. But feel free to call me a "hater". And, Thank you. :)
Psalms 119:113 "I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love."
Psalms 97:10
"Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked." (Praise The Lord!!)
Psalms 139:21 "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." (Amen!!)
And I know I am hated in return. To those I say, Thank you. :)
Psalms 18:17
"He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me."
2 Samuel 22:18
"He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me."
Psalms 18:40
" Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me."
The Lord is hated as well. And it is my opinion, and the teaching of the Word, that loving those that hate Him, is causing us quite a bit of trouble in this nation today.
2 Chronicles 19:2
"............... Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD."
But we have Christ that came to save us from those that "hate" us.
Luke 1:71
"That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;"
You wont catch me BEGGING people to become a Christian. Once they have been given the Word, if they reject it............ well.........time to dust off your shoes. Dont get me wrong, I continue to be sad for them, very sad, but as Christians our responsibility is to reach His "sheep", then to feed His "sheep", and everybody aint a sheep. ;)
swill269
01-11-2005, 18:05
:o
swordsliger,
there is no religion or god to prejudge, ask a cow if it is worried about who is right. religion is a prejudice in itself by nature. ;)
:cool:
swill269
01-11-2005, 18:07
:o
swordslinger,
i agree. (suck poll)
:cool:
GREYBEAR
01-11-2005, 18:14
Metaldoc, Yes I admit it is a low blow, but it happens. How many people are fooled by the kind of bible thumping, scripture spouting piles of garbage like the ones I mentioned. Are those who fall for the line "send me Money, and I will talk to god for you" so weak minded or brain washed into thinking that they need a go- between to communicate with the Almighty. Is a church really necessary? All I have to do is step out into my yard, and I can see the wonder of the Almighty. I look at children at play, and I see the hand of the God. The reason Christianity is so big, it became the state religion of the Roman Empire, and since then it was convert or die. And after many centuries of countless wars, many did. Now Islamic fundamentalists are trying the same and want to catch up. Look at history, see what humanity in the name of religion has done. Yes there has been much good, but there has also been much evil and intolerance. If humanity doesn't learn from the past, there will only be more holy wars, until we kill ourselves.
:beer: :rapid:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 18:36
Originally posted by GREYBEAR@Jan 12 2005, 01:14 AM
....but there has also been much evil and intolerance.
Is intolerance evil? Carefull.
Metaldoc
01-11-2005, 18:36
Greybear,
I would not begin to argue that much wrong has been done in the name of Christianity. Televangelists in general are whoremongers. There are people that follow rock stars or celebrities just as there are followers of the TV guru's. And they are all nuts IMHO.
I call myself a Christian because I believe in God, The Father, and am a follower of Jesus Christ. Perhaps disciple would be a better word.
I agree, you can just look around and see the proof of God everywhere you look. I feel the same way, looking at His Creation in nature, children at play, etc.
Many, many churches are way off the track. I look past denominations and look instead to the individuals beliefs. Churches are to be for fellowshipping in Christ and worshipping Him. Too often that is far from the truth. I distance myself from those churches, but not from Christ.
Yeah, there are a lot of rotten eggs in the Christianity basket, but that doesn't discredit God, just the rotten eggs. That is the evil that is in the world. That is Satan at work. If he can undermine the church, what better way to fight his battle. (Which by the way, he has already lost.)
Metaldoc :usa:
swill269
01-11-2005, 18:46
:o
swordslinger,
it is a negative/not good in lieu of the "turn the other cheek" philosophy. in reality it is a must; turn the other "cheek" and walk away from it if it upsets/angers/threatens you. a threat warants keeping vigilance until secure/death. :(
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 19:00
Originally posted by Metaldoc@Jan 12 2005, 01:36 AM
Greybear,
I would not begin to argue that much wrong has been done in the name of Christianity. Televangelists in general are whoremongers. There are people that follow rock stars or celebrities just as there are followers of the TV guru's. And they are all nuts IMHO.
I call myself a Christian because I believe in God, The Father, and am a follower of Jesus Christ. Perhaps disciple would be a better word.
I agree, you can just look around and see the proof of God everywhere you look. I feel the same way, looking at His Creation in nature, children at play, etc.
Many, many churches are way off the track. I look past denominations and look instead to the individuals beliefs. Churches are to be for fellowshipping in Christ and worshipping Him. Too often that is far from the truth. I distance myself from those churches, but not from Christ.
Yeah, there are a lot of rotten eggs in the Christianity basket, but that doesn't discredit God, just the rotten eggs. That is the evil that is in the world. That is Satan at work. If he can undermine the church, what better way to fight his battle. (Which by the way, he has already lost.)
Metaldoc :usa:
Well said Doc!! You are a good wittness for The King. Much better than I. :(
religion is a man made thing like money, jobs, etc.
You are right here, religion is a man made thing. What is needed here is relationship. That is why we were created. Of course that opens up a whole other set of discussions.
Is a church really necessary? All I have to do is step out into my yard, and I can see the wonder of the Almighty.
yes, it's about the fellowship of other Christians. There are no lone ranger Christians.
Look at history, see what humanity in the name of religion has done.
That really is the point, that man is inherently bad and in need of a Savior. That is why we can't look to men or a man. We need to keep our eyes on Jesus, He is the example and we all fall short. The good news is that when we stand in answer to our sin Jesus says I've got him covered, paid his price in full. Hallelujah.
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 19:15
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 12 2005, 01:46 AM
:o
swordslinger,
it is a negative/not good in lieu of the "turn the other cheek" philosophy. in reality it is a must; turn the other "cheek" and walk away from it if it upsets/angers/threatens you. a threat warants keeping vigilance until secure/death. :(
:cool:
Reminds me of an illustration.
One of the biggest football players on the team, "found religion" he had been known as quite a bully before, but had repented and changed his ways. All of the guys were ribbing him, and having a little fun.
Then, this little skinny guy who was a smart butt to begin with came up and said, "Hey, Big fella, I here your a Christian now, is that right? The Big jock said , Yes, it is true. Then smartypants said, "Well if your a Christian now, then I can step up on this bench and slap the crap out of you, and you will have to turn the other cheek. Isnt that what your "lord" says?" He said, " yes, (reluctantly) yes it is." So the little guys stepped up and...Whap!! knocked the crap out of him. The Big guy with a big red whelp on his face and a trickle of blood runnin out of his nose, looked back at him. The little guy says, "ah...ah..ah.. you have to turn the other cheek" He said, Yes (reluctantly) yes I do. He did and..... Whap!!! The little guy hits him again!!! All of a sudden, the Big guy graps him by the throat, and slams him against the lockers and starts whailing on him. Smartypants says.... Wha...wha...what.. are you doing....?? Your suposed to turn the other cheek, arnt you???? The Big guy says, " yes and Ive done that,you see, Im a new Christian, and beyond that, I have no further instruction!!! ;) :lol:
swill269
01-11-2005, 19:52
:o
religion was not created/developed from "positive" aw and wonder, it came from the fear of the unknown: occasional tornado, lighting, tsunami, volcano, earthquake, avalanche, etc.
man will take anything he likes, no problem. mostly with no gratitude either. let the shtf and disrupt tranquility and fear runs rampant. tribes, groups, nations, etc. have been around forever, "strength in unity" ain't new. collectively by combat, vote, size, color, etc. the group settles on a "leader" to bind them together, bonding ain't new either. the leader is looked to for guidance, protection, healing, providing, etc. if everything is rolling along ok, plenty of food, water, shelter, and territory; then everybody is happy.
in the middle of the night the earth opens up and swallows half the nation. when daylight comes and all of the destruction, mayhem, tragedy, death and carnage are apparent, folks want answers, they need relief. who ya gonna call? mr. leader what the hell have you done? uh, uh, it's not my fault, i did not have a thing to do with it. who did then? uh, uh, let me see, this is big sh## i need time to find out. ..... ladies and gentlemen, may i have your attention please. after careful consideration and counseling with my assistants, i have detemined we have a, boogyman, devil, bad "spirit", unknow to us before.
we must now protect ourselves from this ugly darkness by eating a pound of sand while facing the glowing orb which comes out of the earth to light our way. ...next time the shtf the guru says we got to sacrifice a virgin (women have always gotten the short end of the stick from men, but not all men), this will hold em til the next one.
after awhile all the folks around are losing faith in his power. they are sacrificing like crazy and the shtf more often and in many different ways. it is time for him to "pass the buck". uh, uh, you see i must confess. there is this "god" thing that really makes the good and i have been sort of taking the credit, but since he talks through me i am still your leader, OK. he says you need to give lambs and bananas to the flat rock at the bottom of sacred hill.
there are a million different ways it started, but a "god" did not get credit until "man" could not stand the heat and had to get out of the kitchen. the bottom line is man "created" religion because of weakness and lack of responsibility to his nation, tribe, group, flock. the big reason this happened was because of "ignorance". we know what an earthquake is, we know what a bolt of lighting is made of, we know how to measure the depth of the oceans, we know how to measure the distance to the moon, we know how to measure the amount of gravity on the moon, we know how to get to the moon to prove it. still ignorant though.
if there was a "god", his presents would have been known immediately by all and we would not be so damned far apart on which "god" to choose. we keep making them up and fighting about them, killing one another over a "vision". "man is an animal"
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 20:12
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smiley_aall.gif Dont hog it Steve, pass it to the next pue, ok. :lol:
swill269
01-11-2005, 20:34
:o
swordslinger,
truth is: i could not do this if i had no audience, so i must preach when/where i can!
the truth will set you free, be good because you want to, not because you are threatened with hell fire and brimstone. are you really good, or pretending to be out of fear? "he knows when youv'e been good or bad, so be good for goodness sake". this really sums it up.
i had rather be good for my sake and the well being of others because that is my personal goal, it feels good too. to know that i can do what most can not do, even with the help of their "god", gives me a big head. sorry; it comes natural to me, like falling off a log, nothin' to it, just do it. ;)
:cool:
P.S. the poll got pulled, someone has culled the crap. :D
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 20:48
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 12 2005, 03:34 AM
.....sorry; it comes natural to me, like falling off a log, nothin' to it, just do it.*
Oh, I dont doubt that it comes natural, not one bit. ;)
1 Corinthians 2:14
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 20:58
Sniper, you never did tell us how OLD you are. You anit gettin away from this one!!! :lol:
the truth will set you free, be good because you want to, not because you are threatened with hell fire and brimstone. are you really good, or pretending to be out of fear? "he knows when youv'e been good or bad, so be good for goodness sake". this really sums it up.
The Christian is greived by his sin not because of being threatened by Hell fire, he already knows that he isn't going there. It is the seperation from God that sin produces that is greivous to the Christian. This is all a supernatural relationship that as Bill quoted the natural man knows nothing.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
The one thing that gets me about some of those practicing christianity, is that when they're asked a question about it they tend to start preaching with an attitude that they're better than everyone else and they have the only answer.
What happened to tolerance, love they neighbor and all that stuff? The likes of people such as Jim Jones, Jim Baker, Jesse Jackson and any of them on television give all of the other religions something to really laugh at.
In short, I see a whole bunch of folks preachin' it but not many practicing it. I guess if spewing out scriptures and verses makes you feel better.........GO FOR IT!! But keep in mind, just because you found a pair of shoes that fit, doesn't give you the right to go around nailing shoes on peoples feet.
:sniper:
I can't believe how many people think that gun nuts are automatically conservative Christians. How myopic!
Despite that fact that I find bible-thumping to be rude, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'll let this thread go. Just keep it to a debate and don't get personal, ANYONE.
guess I couldn't hold out any longer... Metaldoc and Sword are not to be trifled with.
For the athiests, there is little to do except wait for them to get the call. My personal belief is that most liberals / athiests are just barely holding on to that argument so they can continue their deviant behaviors and feel good for now that they think they'll not ever be held accountable(except maybe to other people.) Basic human morals spring forth from God Himself.... ("in His image"), There is no "evolutionary" reason for morals, past self-preservation and preservation of your offspring. I try very hard as I get older to not "hate" i.e. dislike on the same level of intensity as love, only in the wrong direction. Occasionally one is forced to though, but not just because they don't believe the truth... I've been 18 yrs almost now in the military, I swore and oath to defend every American's right to make the wrong choice, even give my life for that right if need be. Let 'em make their choices, more room for me!
A MUST READ for anyone interested in this stuff is "So What's the Difference?" by Fritz Riddenour... compares 20 religions and pseudoChristian belief sets against Gospel Christianity. Lots of fun stuff in there about JW's and stuff. Of course it is written from a Christian POV so the other folks will find a lot of fault.
We can all still be civil, that's what's so great about our country!
The reason that scripture is quoted so much is that it carries far more authority than I could ever muster on my own. I don't know that anyone is going to come to knowing God from these discussions. It is an individual decision. We are called to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in us.
Here is a verse that is hard to live by because as Bill said we are self-centered by nature. I don't however wish to be thought of as being rude.
Phil 2:3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
One last thing, when I say "you" I mean the world, not "you" aimed at anyone in particular.
:sniper:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 21:57
Originally posted by Sniper@Jan 12 2005, 04:10 AM
The one thing that gets me about some of those practicing christianity, is that when they're asked a question about it they tend to start preaching with an attitude that they're better than everyone else and they have the only answer.
What happened to tolerance, love they neighbor and all that stuff? The likes of people such as Jim Jones, Jim Baker, Jesse Jackson and any of them on television give all of the other religions something to really laugh at.
In short, I see a whole bunch of folks preachin' it but not many practicing it. I guess if spewing out scriptures and verses makes you feel better.........GO FOR IT!! But keep in mind, just because you found a pair of shoes that fit, doesn't give you the right to go around nailing shoes on peoples feet.
:sniper:
Sniper,
What is any different about Christians "spewing out scripture", and some of the others here "spewing out thier beliefs"? I have heard some insults here, but not one coming from the ones of who you speak, "the Christians". But I can see several places were Christians are acused of being weak, stupid, and trying to nail a pair of shoes on someone. Wheres the tolerence? I dont believe in tolerence myself, nor does God's Law teach it, its just a made up Politicaly correct term(made up by the same folks that want your weapons) designed to control the weak, stupid masses who are dumb enough to fall for it. And I cant see here where anyone has tried to nail a pair of shoes to yours, or George Carlins feet. As far as being holier than "thou", there is no doubt in my mine that there are folks here, yourself included, that are ten times the man I am. I guess you could call me the "Supreme Sinner" That'd be true. :(
As far as Jim Baker, Jesse (The Rev :blink: ) and Jim Joneshttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/icon_smile_dead.gif, Im not insulted by you comparing me to them, because there is a difference in Christians, and "those that preach another Jesus" who Paul spoke of. And by thier friuts, it is clear the "jesus" they preach is on a Federal Reserve Note, probably Ben Franklin,(he had long hair too :lol: )
I really dont mind being called weak and stupid, here, let me "spew"(puke) out some more scripture for ya.
1 Corinthians 1:27
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"
The insults, remarks are welcome as well. Ill Just say THANK YOUStep back, now, I feel another "spew" (lets just call it puke) conin on. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/anim_toilet.gif
Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
Luke 6:22 "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake."
Keep em comin, I can use all the blessing I can get. ;)
Before you go to thinkin swill and I are "fightin", we are not. We just mean what we say, and say what we mean. We get along just fine.
Sniper, How old are ya? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Just kiddin, you dont have to tell. But we can still be freinds, right?
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 22:17
Originally posted by Bill@Jan 12 2005, 04:24 AM
I can't believe how many people think that gun nuts are automatically conservative Christians. How myopic!
Despite that fact that I find bible-thumping to be rude, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'll let this thread go. Just keep it to a debate and don't get personal, ANYONE.
Maybe we should do a poll to see how many "firearms Enthusist" are Christian. It may surprise you. Maybe the reason it keeps comin up.
swill269
01-11-2005, 22:28
:o
i ain't done nothin'. ...spewd and puked a little, i'm ok now. :lol:
waz up, somebody complainin'? we drawin' fire here or just makin' whopee?
if somebody wants me to shut, stand up and tell me.
:cool:
P.S. if somebody's complainin' bout my pen pal with the scriptures, i want to hear from you too. we're on the same story just different versions.
Originally posted by Swordslinger+Jan 11 2005, 09:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Jan 11 2005, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bill@Jan 12 2005, 04:24 AM
I can't believe how many people think that gun nuts are automatically conservative Christians. How myopic!
Despite that fact that I find bible-thumping to be rude, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'll let this thread go. Just keep it to a debate and don't get personal, ANYONE.
Maybe we should do a poll to see how many "firearms Enthusist" are Christian. It may surprise you. Maybe the reason it keeps comin up. [/b][/quote]
Swordslinger-
Why don't you put your energy into running your own narrow-focus Christian Gun Owners site? Because I certainly am very tired of your preaching. I'm not asking you to leave, I'm asking you to preach to someone who cares.
Yes, there are a lot of gun owners who are Christian. One of my favorites was Ronald Reagan. And as his son said, he didn't wear his Christianity on his sleeve, and he didn't see his Christianity as a mandate from God to go bully people with the bible. He was a great man, a true political conservative (which you and many on this board just don't GET the meaning of), and he didn't go pushing god 24x7.
Stick around and talk guns. Frankly I'm concerned that Chit Chat is becoming a right wing christian "bash'm-all" place. You can put a nice face on it, but simply chanting the Bible over and over and over is getting tedious and a bit obnoxious.
For what it's worth, I'm agnostic, and don't believe that Christ was the son of God. In fact, I don't believe in your God at all, not directly anyhow.
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 22:33
No Problem!! Why dont you leave this up and make sure everyone knows the rules.
Originally posted by jszy@Jan 11 2005, 08:39 PM
My personal belief is that most liberals / athiests ......
jszy-
Is a liberal atheist and vice versa? NO. And guess what, there are lots of beliefs and religions other than Christianity.
I'd ask you to keep your beliefs to yourself, but when you open up and say incredibly ignorant things like "most liberals / athiests" I think I'll just let you keep digging a hole for yourself. It might be entertaining.
swill269
01-11-2005, 22:35
:o :lol:
i see said the blind man to his three deaf daughters. :eek:
:cool:
swill269
01-11-2005, 22:48
:o
oh, well.
back to being a liberal weapons aficionado. ;)
:cool:
Originally posted by Sniper@Jan 11 2005, 11:45 PM
One last thing, when I say "you" I mean the world, not "you" aimed at anyone in particular.
:sniper:
There ya go gettin' all defensive. The spewing I'm talking about is in reference to the folks I mention, Jim, Jim and Jesse and the ones on television. I never compared you, Swordslinger, to them. Did you miss to last post? I'm not referring to you or anyone on this board.
I could care less if you, Swordslinger, post 15million pages of scripture. Please keep in mind, this is a gun forum and some here might find the scripture offensive. It's their prerogative. I've made no indication of a conflict between you and Swill. I'm still trying to figure that one out.
As far as my age, here ya go Swill, I'm 45. Is there anything else you want to know? I'm more than happy to tell all. I have nothing to hide and I hide behind nothing.
I'm not mad, upset or anything. Just on the road again with the laptop seeing what's going on in the world via the web.
As far as being friends. The only person I won't be friends with is dead. I wish I could have corrected that before he met his demise.
:sniper:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 22:55
I was just ribbin ya about the age poll.
swill269
01-12-2005, 00:28
:o
sniper,
the answer is "curiosity". if someone does have the answer/proof/information to help me change my mind, i want to be the first to know it. it's gonna take a "miracle" :lol: and i want to cash in on it. :beer: ;)
one more thing young man, would you show or tell me where i can see a picture of the finished product you used the chromed polished bolt on. the one you posted here awhile back. i need to know if the rest is as :eek: as the bolt.
thank you in advance, you are a kind man. :beer: :D
:cool:
Hi Bill-- It's your piece of the 'net and I fully agree with you that no one needs to be on a jihad here. I am choosing from this point on to not participate in the religious debates here, although it's fun to read. many of the folks make a lot of good reports. Not digging a hole, but even sometimes when someone does dig themself into a hole, they find something good at the bottom. The Ruger stuff is the core of the site and what keeps me coming around.
I should have used "and" instead of the "/" . I understand that liberal and athiest are not interchangeable terms, and am quite aware of many other belief systems. A sincere "Christian liberal" though definately would be interesting to talk to. I will end my participation of this topic here... A suggestion, call it "customer feedback" if this is a tavern, maybe get rid of the "General" forum, and narrow the scope of the site to just gun stuff. (?) There are plenty of other forums out there with these type of debates going on.
(the 320 pound woman post was pretty good, and I don't know where else that might have fit though.)
Dorkface
01-12-2005, 15:29
Originally posted by Bill+Jan 11 2005, 10:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bill @ Jan 11 2005, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 11 2005, 09:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Bill@Jan 12 2005, 04:24 AM
I can't believe how many people think that gun nuts are automatically conservative Christians. How myopic!
Despite that fact that I find bible-thumping to be rude, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'll let this thread go. Just keep it to a debate and don't get personal, ANYONE.
Maybe we should do a poll to see how many "firearms Enthusist" are Christian. It may surprise you. Maybe the reason it keeps comin up.
Swordslinger-
Why don't you put your energy into running your own narrow-focus Christian Gun Owners site? Because I certainly am very tired of your preaching. I'm not asking you to leave, I'm asking you to preach to someone who cares.
Yes, there are a lot of gun owners who are Christian. One of my favorites was Ronald Reagan. And as his son said, he didn't wear his Christianity on his sleeve, and he didn't see his Christianity as a mandate from God to go bully people with the bible. He was a great man, a true political conservative (which you and many on this board just don't GET the meaning of), and he didn't go pushing god 24x7.
Stick around and talk guns. Frankly I'm concerned that Chit Chat is becoming a right wing christian "bash'm-all" place. You can put a nice face on it, but simply chanting the Bible over and over and over is getting tedious and a bit obnoxious.
For what it's worth, I'm agnostic, and don't believe that Christ was the son of God. In fact, I don't believe in your God at all, not directly anyhow. [/b][/quote]
it seems like the only animosity and confrontation has been coming from you. youve admitted yourself that you havent been able to spend alot of time on the board, one which everyone is gratefull you provide, so it almost seems like part of the problem is you havent had time to get to know alot of they guys and gals here. which seems to drive what seems to be some misconeptions from you about some of us.
like me for example. it seems like you think im some sorta homopohbic religous person who is intollarant of any ideas but my own. its just not true. i enjoy reading the debates between sword slinger and swill to see where they end up lol. and i also know that they have total respect for each other, as do most everyone else in the great forum. i dunno what i tihnk about religion and am always curious to see what other people think. the last time i was in church i was under 10 yrs old. so why not calm down a little have a couple :beer: 's and get to know all these great people before you go bonkers. :confused:
i aswell as everyone else i bet would love to talk to and get to know more about the mysterious person who has provided us all with one of our most favorite places on the net. :usa: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :usa:
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 15:43
Originally posted by Dorkface@Jan 12 2005, 10:29 PM
i aswell as everyone else i bet would love to talk to and get to know more about the mysterious person who has provided us all with one of our most favorite places on the net.** :usa:* :beer:* :beer:* :beer:* :beer:* :usa:
Not everyone!! :lol:
Bill,
You are the most devisive, arrogant one of the whole bunch. Everyone here goes out of their way to try not to engage in name calling, personal attacks, ect... That is everyone but YOU. No one was arguing :blink:. No one was trying to force their beliefs on anyone. We were having a discussion. In case you havent noticed, I dont care whether you believe in "my" God or not. When I say I dont care, I say that knowing that not all are His. Should I hide my beliefs because they offend you? Are you really that sensitive?http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/violin.gif
Dont bother with an answer, you have already answered it.
GREYBEAR
01-12-2005, 16:53
Originally posted by Swordslinger+Jan 11 2005, 08:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Jan 11 2005, 08:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-GREYBEAR@Jan 12 2005, 01:14 AM
....but there has also been much evil and intolerance.
Is intolerance evil? Carefull.
[/b][/quote]
Sword, do you think that you can answer your own question without bible quotes? As recently history has shown us, the attrocities committed by the intolerance of Orthodox Christian Serbs upon their Muslim neighbors in the Balkans. In this country fine upstanding Christians who don white robes and hoods and go out to burn another Christian church, simply because those worshipers skin is a little darker than theirs, and in the process kill several little girls. Don't you think that this intolerance is evil. Where in the bible does it say that these acts are fine? Where does Christ teach that you can be intolerant of others beliefs? Please enlighten me. You stated that you are intolerant of others beliefs. WHY?
:beer: :rapid:
Why is it that so many people these days think that there are many different versions of the truth? TRUTH IS TRUTH and it is a FINE LINE!! Any deviation from truth is NOT truth and can be anywhere from slight misconception to complete lie. SO, why can people say that since there are so many religions, there must be many paths to God? It does not make sense. AKKKKK. It is frustrating to me to argue against the Shrodinger idea that truth is only based on ones perception.... An apple seen by one as an orange, is an orange -- and another may see it as a banana, so it is a banana.... LOL! It's always been an apple and that's it!! This is the way religious, and non-religious beliefs are. "Religion," defined as "laws of men to control the masses," really is just a bunch of "versions" of truth. I believe that the definition of religion is pretty much "a version of the truth, designed in arrogance, to create self power, control men, and ultimately hide truth." I am not religious. I believe in the ONE TRUTH through Christ Jesus, a way of life and the path to God. And although there are many religions, many non-religions, and many forms of Christianity, there is only ONE TRUTH!! Christianity is a personal quest to find truth (God) through Jesus (the answer) with the aid of reason (the Holy Spirit). Christianity is not a religion, it is a way of life. And yes, this way of life takes flack from all sides.
I really like the folks in this forum, mainly because of the vigilance of some of our Christian soldiers. I have not seen my Christian brothers here attack anyone. I have not seen them "bang others over the head with scripture." I have not seen them insult, or degrade others. I HAVE seen them be INTOLERANT of any argument that deviates from truth, by stating the truth with inspiration, love, and vigilance. Christ commands us to do this, with love. I HIGHLY commend you brothers for the way you carry yourselves. And, we Christians are being accused of being rude by people who really are the ones being rude! We may be intolerant of lies and deceit, but we do so with love to all our brothers -- to those who believe and to those who do not.
Cab, Doc, Tri, Sword, Dork, Jszy, and all others I forget to mention.... God bless you fellas for your courage and wisdom. I am happy to know that my fellow "gun nut radicals" are so intelligent -- so conservative -- so Christian! Praise God, Amen!
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 17:15
Originally posted by GREYBEAR+Jan 12 2005, 11:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GREYBEAR @ Jan 12 2005, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 11 2005, 08:36 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-GREYBEAR@Jan 12 2005, 01:14 AM
....but there has also been much evil and intolerance.
Is intolerance evil? Carefull.
Sword, do you think that you can answer your own question without bible quotes? [/b][/quote]
I tell you what, Ill answer the first half half without useing a bible quote, ok? Is that a compromise, or what? :lol:
By your deffinition of being "tolerant", then maybe we should tolerate Alqiada's beliefs that we should be wiped off the face of the earth along with the jews. Is that what you believe? Come on, you dont believe that. And I dont equate you with Alqiada for saying what you just said. But yet you equate me with the Klan, and every other hate group from here to the Balkans. How tolerant is that? You see the difference is that I dont claim to be tolerant when Im not.
Here comes the other half that I promised you.............hold on.....some real wisdom comin up here now.......
Matthew 7:6 "........... neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
Jesus told us to shine our light for the whole world to see, and to love our brothers. We must be intolerant!!! We must show that Christ IS the Way. Those that are intolerant AND do evil deeds, as you speak of Grey, are NOT us and they are NOT our ways. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 17:43
Thanks Tunug. I am the least of which you mentioned, and not worthy to be in that list.
Apparently today being tolerant means loving everyone and everything except Christians. And when some Christian says something to offend, go hire the services at The Law Offices of Handler&Wiener and file a lawsuit!
darjeeling
01-12-2005, 17:45
But y'all better remember, absolute certitude in your beleif is a sure fire way to become a fanatic. Why do I consider myself a Christian? Simple. Out of all the religions I have had the time to explore deeply, I found the core concepts to be the most beautiful and liberal (note: lowercase L, e.g. John Locke, J. S. Mill, etc.) religion, and also most consistant with my own personal philosophy. Why am I an agnostic? Thats a bit trickier. First off, I don't think with the limited perception of a finite being that I could ever be convinced completely of anything, much less something so murky as the existance of an infinite being with no direct and tangeble evidence in the (human visible) cosmos. Since I also want not to rule anything out, I realize assuming God exists is an equally absurd conclusion as assuming that God exists.
Yes, there is one truth. No, no-one will ever know what the hell that truth is. Anyone who says they know it is a liar, no matter how insightful or mostly correct they are. Even Jesus, assuming him to be half-divine/half-human, would be incapable in his finite form of knowing the truth. One of the few things we can know is anything in this world we perceive to be true (expecially on that scale) is not, no matter how close it is to said truth. WE MEN ARE NOT GODS! As such, we do not have the perseption, memory and clarity required to grasp the truth as it is. We can only grab at wispy, intangible and unverifiable forms of the absolute truth, and speculate on what it may be.
Anyone who can say with certitude that they know the absolute truth has at least one ideological beleif in common with the Islamofascist we are so busy rooting out on arab street.
Originally posted by jszy@Jan 12 2005, 01:33 PM
A sincere "Christian liberal" though definately would be interesting to talk to.
What is your definition of Liberal? Because there are plenty of Catholics in the democratic party. Last I heard, Catholics were Christian too.
Darjeeling, good post! I agree with you. I am skeptical by nature, and I NEVER am 100% sure about anything. And concerning my beliefs in God, I used to be agnostic with 50/50 beliefs. I am sorry if I came across there to make people think that I have all the answers, I certainly do not! I am becoming very much more sure these days that what I believe in is true... because God is working on me and showing me the truth, changing my beliefs, and it is the feeling of almost irrefutable certainty that wows me to the point of believing. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, which shows me the way to truth... this is the feeling that George W spoke of when he ran for president the first time.... "if you never felt it you wouldn't understand." This is the statement which the non-believers took offense to and thought George W was being "holier than thou know it all" but the Christians understood fully something very different from that statement. I believe that statement won him the election. I now understand that feeling... its not just certainty... it's REVELATION... the feeling of revelation, "I once was blind but now i see". So yes.... I am very sure of some of my beliefs, and since i am a skeptic.. that really means something. But no, i am rarely 100% sure of anything, and i have a LOT more to learn. Thanks for the input there, Darjeeling, to set me straight.... I agree with you 100% LOL no i mean maybe 50% ummmmmm i dunno.... i kinda agree wicha M8!!! hehe.... good post
Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 12 2005, 02:43 PM
Bill,
You are the most devisive, arrogant one of the whole bunch. Everyone here goes out of their way to try not to engage in name calling, personal attacks, ect... That is everyone but YOU. No one was arguing :blink:. No one was trying to force their beliefs on anyone. We were having a discussion. In case you havent noticed, I dont care whether you believe in "my" God or not. When I say I dont care, I say that knowing that not all are His. Should I hide my beliefs because they offend you? Are you really that sensitive?
Dont bother with an answer, you have already answered it.
Swordslinger-
I've been blasting out shotgun blasts of generalities, in order to let people self assess on their commentary.
But since you attack me directly, here is food for thought.
You call me arrogant, but in this VERY THREAD, you state:
I am Christian, and consider myself to be HIGHLY intolerant of other religions in my personal circles. But they have that right under the current laws, and as long as they do not threaten the health, safety, and welfare of my family we will be fine.
But, The Day will come when every knee shall bow!! Praise YaH!!!
Then you go on to say that it's your responsibility to push it on people:
Christians, it is our responsibilty to tell folks HOW to recieve the Holy Spirit, once they get it, new things are reaveled to them that would not be accepted before.
You think that intolerance is good
Is intolerance evil? Carefull.
By your own quotes, you are arrogant. Your God is the real god, the rest are false. Your brethren are saved, the rest are not. And so on.
I'm not even going to quote how many times you've taken a thread and tried to turn it into a religious topic by posting Bible quotes to back your point. It's getting old. It's like listening to a kid explain everything in terms of a video game they once played.
You have a signature that exceeds the size of many of your posts. I'm paying for your billboard advertising, in other words.
You have NUMEROUS high quality gun-tech posts on the other forums, and I acknowledge that. But to think that I should sit here and be called arrogant by one of the most arrogant bible thumpers on this board, well, that's down right hilarious.
BigUglyOne
01-12-2005, 18:34
Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 12 2005, 07:15 PM
And I dont equate you with Alqiada for saying what you just said. But yet you equate me with the Klan, and every other hate group from here to the Balkans. How tolerant is that? You see the difference is that I dont claim to be tolerant when Im not.
I don't see anything there that equated you to the Klan, Sword. What he asked is; Don't you think that this intolerance is evil. Where in the bible does it say that these acts are fine? Where does Christ teach that you can be intolerant of others beliefs? Please enlighten me. You stated that you are intolerant of others beliefs. WHY?
I believe he is acknowledging a difference and asking what the difference is!?
The question is actually a pretty good one. As you know, I claim you as a friend (a dubious distinction for you if there ever was one :lol: ) and I don't find you to be intolerant of MY beliefs. Nor have I seen an intolerance to, say, Swill's non-belief. The Klan, on the other hand, might bring their intolerance of Jews to a physical level, an actual hatred.
This is a lot harder to put into words than I thought it would be.
I guess the question is just what won't you tolerate? What is your level of intolerance ?
Jeez, somethin' like that.
(I knew there was a reason I didn't enter into many Religious discussions, I don't have the vocabulary!!)
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 18:52
Originally posted by Tunug@Jan 13 2005, 01:07 AM
Darjeeling, good post! I agree with you. I am skeptical by nature, and I NEVER am 100% sure about anything. And concerning my beliefs in God, I used to be agnostic with 50/50 beliefs. I am sorry if I came across there to make people think that I have all the answers, I certainly do not! I am becoming very much more sure these days that what I believe in is true... because God is working on me and showing me the truth, changing my beliefs, and it is the feeling of almost irrefutable certainty that wows me to the point of believing. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, which shows me the way to truth... this is the feeling that George W spoke of when he ran for president the first time.... "if you never felt it you wouldn't understand." This is the statement which the non-believers took offense to and thought George W was being "holier than thou know it all" but the Christians understood fully something very different from that statement. I believe that statement won him the election. I now understand that feeling... its not just certainty... it's REVELATION... the feeling of revelation, "I once was blind but now i see". So yes.... I am very sure of some of my beliefs, and since i am a skeptic.. that really means something. But no, i am rarely 100% sure of anything, and i have a LOT more to learn. Thanks for the input there, Darjeeling, to set me straight.... I agree with you 100% LOL no i mean maybe 50% ummmmmm i dunno.... i kinda agree wicha M8!!! hehe.... good post
Tunug, I agree. That was a good post. ;)
There is only ONE creator of our universe, and He told us that there is only one way to Him. [edited to add: This I am 100% sure of!]
Christ was intolerant of other religious beliefs, He is the way, the truth, and the life, and He commanded us to spread the gospel.
So, as far as tolerance goes.... the "other" paths to God are not tolerated as valid truth.
We as Christians tolerate other people, but we do not tolerate any other "truths," because there is only one Truth.
This thread is about this very subject... and we are all quite ON TOPIC!!
Originally posted by Dorkface@Jan 12 2005, 02:29 PM
it seems like the only animosity and confrontation has been coming from you. youve admitted yourself that you havent been able to spend alot of time on the board, one which everyone is gratefull you provide, so it almost seems like part of the problem is you havent had time to get to know alot of they guys and gals here. which seems to drive what seems to be some misconeptions from you about some of us.
like me for example. it seems like you think im some sorta homopohbic religous person who is intollarant of any ideas but my own. its just not true. i enjoy reading the debates between sword slinger and swill to see where they end up lol. and i also know that they have total respect for each other, as do most everyone else in the great forum. i dunno what i tihnk about religion and am always curious to see what other people think. the last time i was in church i was under 10 yrs old. so why not calm down a little have a couple :beer: 's and get to know all these great people before you go bonkers. :confused:
i aswell as everyone else i bet would love to talk to and get to know more about the mysterious person who has provided us all with one of our most favorite places on the net. :usa: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :usa:
Thank you for the kind comments near the end.
With respect to the very first of your comments: Let's say you owned a tavern and left on vacation, and when you came back, it was filled with Hare Krishnas that didn't drink beer, all they did was take up space and buy $2 sodas.
First of all, your good $3 beer drinking crowd is gone, and you lose the burger revenue as well. Every time a beer drinking, burger eating patron comes in, the Hare Krisha's give'm a dose of pamphlets and flowers. Soon the word gets around that if you want guys in orange robes, go to Bill's Tavern. If you want beer and burgers, go elsewhere.
Now turn that around here. There is no comfortable conversation in Chit Chat that doesn't turn into a anti-Democrat, Pro-Christianity festival. Well, I exaggerate a bit, but still. I want my old board back, even if it only had 1000 members and fewer posts.
I don't ~care~ if 90% of this community is Red State, Right Wing, Church Going, and male. I am here to PROMOTE the 2nd Amendment and firearms enthusiasm, and the anti-Democrat or Pro-Bible "enthusiasts" [a] aren't helping and [b] don't care. I mean that. There is no room for compromise in their mindset, so they'd rather preach to a small choir rather than expand the purpose of this board.
Getting to know someone isn't going to help if those people are intolerant of different beliefs. Christians are welcome here, but this isn't a preachers pulpit, it's not a recruiting zone. I want Jews, Buddhists, Blacks, Browns, legal immigrants and Women and kids to all be comfortable and welcome here. Bring'em all here as long as they are firearms enthusiasts.
As soon as more quiet members start questioning the direction of the board, it's time for me to try and give it direction. If I SUCK at giving direction, so be it, it's my board. If 1/2 the posters here leave because they don't like it, that's a shame, but it's a free site and it won't hurt me a bit.
BigUglyOne
01-12-2005, 19:01
I must say, old girl, that is a heck of an attitude ya got there!
Originally posted by jszy@Jan 12 2005, 01:33 PM
Hi Bill-- It's your piece of the 'net and I fully agree with you that no one needs to be on a jihad here. I am choosing from this point on to not participate in the religious debates here, although it's fun to read. many of the folks make a lot of good reports. Not digging a hole, but even sometimes when someone does dig themself into a hole, they find something good at the bottom. The Ruger stuff is the core of the site and what keeps me coming around.
I should have used "and" instead of the "/" . I understand that liberal and athiest are not interchangeable terms, and am quite aware of many other belief systems. A sincere "Christian liberal" though definately would be interesting to talk to. I will end my participation of this topic here... A suggestion, call it "customer feedback" if this is a tavern, maybe get rid of the "General" forum, and narrow the scope of the site to just gun stuff. (?) There are plenty of other forums out there with these type of debates going on.
(the 320 pound woman post was pretty good, and I don't know where else that might have fit though.)
Sorry for misinterpreting your typing there. I still think that there is too much generalization when it comes to liberal/conservative values and other areas.
Heck, the Republican Party isn't even politically conservative. The generalizations don't even make sense.
darjeeling
01-12-2005, 19:06
Thanks, For more info on the topic I have some suggestions for reading to get a better understanding of christianity. For those who are extremely patient, Georg Hegel's (yes, that facist bastard) Science of Logic is a good read. Anything by Soren Kierkegaard is good, but i'd suggest Works of Love, Repitition, Fear and Trembling, The Sickness unto Death, and The Concept of Dread. He has an incredible ammount to say about what is ideally christian and I beleive anyone who beleives or dislikes christianity should read his work to help clarify their beleifs. Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Vol: 3-6 are also good for the origin of the modern Christian religion.
This is cool. I can sit here and hit the "refresh" button and read a new post everytime. :lol:
:sniper:
Hey Bill!
Why be fine with the idea that half of us may leave? actually the one half gets along quite well with the other half.... or so it has seemed so until today.
We don't want to leave unless we are not welcome here. Could we have a little section where it is ok to chit-chat about our personal beliefs regarding God? I've seen it on other forums, and I think it is a great idea. This way, those who are offended with the idea of God do not have to read that particular section but still may participate in general chit-chat, and those who love to talk about God will have a place to do so appropriately. I think that most of us would like something like this.
BTW... thanks for keeping Bill's Tavern open.... I love it here. :beer: :beer:
Originally posted by Sniper@Jan 12 2005, 06:09 PM
This is cool. I can sit here and hit the "refresh" button and read a new post everytime. :lol:
:sniper:
LoL..... i know, cool huh? heh heh :beer: :beer:
Originally posted by Tunug@Jan 12 2005, 06:09 PM
Hey Bill!
Why be fine with the idea that half of us may leave? actually the one half gets along quite well with the other half.... or so it has seemed so until today.
We don't want to leave unless we are not welcome here. Could we have a little section where it is ok to chit-chat about our personal beliefs regarding God? I've seen it on other forums, and I think it is a great idea. This way, those who are offended with the idea of God do not have to read that particular section but still may participate in general chit-chat, and those who love to talk about God will have a place to do so appropriately. I think that most of us would like something like this.
BTW... thanks for keeping Bill's Tavern open.... I love it here. :beer: :beer:
I do NOT mean that I want half of you to leave. What I mean is that if I speak up and you (collectively, not you personally) don't like it, well, Welcome To My World. If collectively the users here tend to NOT like the place as much because it's less of a Chrisitan Brotherhood PTL Club hangout, then so be it. Because at the end of the day, I'm not here to help the PTL club with a clubhouse. I'm here to promote firearms.
The very best way might be to eliminate Chit Chat. I just have to figure that I'll get 3 days of hate mail and I'll lose some regular visitors. I don't want to do it, but worse things could happen. It's not going to affect my income, my sleep, or my personal life. Not negatively, anyhow.
BTW, that might be a good compromise. I'll put Religion in one forum, and ban it from the rest.
Nice compromise.....
darjeeling-
I see you are in Oaktown.
We should set up a PerfectUnion shoot up at Chabot. I'm in PTown (Pleasanton)
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 19:23
Originally posted by BigUglyOne@Jan 13 2005, 01:34 AM
I guess the question is just what won't you tolerate? What is your level of intolerance ?
Im pretty sure thats what Bear was doin. I fugured he would, thats why I said, "carefull". :lol: Anyone thats angaist something will pick the most racical to prove their point. Its just human nature.
As far as what Im intolerant of......lets see......heres a few....
I really, really dont like child molesters. (I dont want to use the word hate, cause I might hurt someones feelings. But you probably know how I feel ;) )
I dont like green geans (out of fear of offending the Jolly Green Giant I continue to refrain from the word hate, but you probably know how I feel)
If I were still a drinkin man, Id say I hate (yeah thats right, hate) Wild Turkey, cause of the way the vomit tastes the next morning.
I dont like Alqaeda, or the Taliban. (Still being carefull not to use the word hate, cause I wouldnt want to offend Osamma :( )
I an very intolerant of the word "tolerant" (as it is meant today)
The list gets longer from here. To make it short, as to not be larger than my sig line, Ill say this. Im am intolerant of evil. Do we have different deffinitions of what is evil? Sure we do!! (althogh, you and I share several) Do we have different place from which we derive the word evil? Yes. I get mine from The Word of God. Does that keep me from excepting those with different beliefs from amoung my friends? No. Look at Steve and I. We are probably 180 degrees from each other, yet we share each others e-mail address. Hell, Ill even go as far as to say I like Steve, and would consider him friend.
You get the point? Its not that I am an intolerant monster,( I am to some, and that ok ;) ) I am just honest. The "theys" (who ever they are) have been useing our language as a weapon. "Gun Nut" is a good example. It has become so leavened that to hear someone say he/she is intolerant, conjures up images are Nazis, crosses burning, guys in white hoods (as Bear mentioned). When in reality, no one is "tolerant".( If they are, lets see some of it with me. Show me all that "love and tolerance" :lol:) Just to the extent that the liberal media has changed the deffinition to encompass the above images. And the whole world has fallen for it, hook line and sinker. :(
Now I must do this to keep up my reputation, so all of you people that are filled with "tolerance" bare with me, ok? Remeber, Im a just weak, narrow minded, arrogant, stupid, Bible thumper being controlled by those who use religion as a yoke upon me. So take it easy, ok? :lol:
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
darjeeling
01-12-2005, 19:24
Originally posted by Bill @ Jan 12 2005@ 06:21 PM
darjeeling-
I see you are in Oaktown.
We should set up a PerfectUnion shoot up at Chabot. I'm in PTown (Pleasanton)
Sweet! I'd love to meet the administrator. I guess we should get a thread going about this.
In the story of the blind man who was healed by Jesus the people who were confronted with the evidence of the miracle either chose to acknowledge that Jesus was who He said that He was...God or refused to believe. What makes Christianity so compelling to us because of what God has done in our lives. You see in this story the Pharisees could not refute the miracle, but they would not affirm Jesus as the Son of God ie. equal to God. Their unwillingness and disbelief had nothing to do with the truth. Although the Pharisees could punish the man who was born blind they could not refute his testimony. The testimony of what God has done in any of our lives who call Jesus on as Savior and Lord cannot be refuted either. There is a book, Fox's Book of Martyrs that describes the deaths of the Apostles. The deaths are all terrible; none of them would refute the truth to save themselves from the pain because they knew the truth and had an eternal perspective. They were all called by the Lord by name, and even still those who come to the knowledge of God are called by His Spirit, and it is a free gift just like Christmas. You only have to receive.
John 9:1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I* must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." 6 When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. 7 And He said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing. 8 Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was *blind said, "Is not this he who sat and begged?" 9 Some said, "This is he." Others said, *"He is like him." He said, "I am he." 10 Therefore they said to him, "How were your eyes opened?" 11 He answered and said, "A Man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, 'Go to *the pool of Siloam and wash.' So I went and washed, and I received sight." 12 Then they said to him, "Where is He?" He said, "I do not know." 13 They brought him who formerly was blind to the Pharisees. 14 Now it was a Sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15 Then the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, "He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see." 16 Therefore some of the Pharisees said, "This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath." Others said, "How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?" And there was a division among them. 17 They said to the blind man again, "What do you say about Him because He opened your eyes?" He said, "He is a prophet." 18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight. 19 And they asked them, saying, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?" 20 His parents answered them and said, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21 but by what means he now sees we do not know, or who opened his eyes we do not know. He is of age; ask him. He will speak for himself." 22 His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed that He was Christ, he would be put out of the synagogue. 23 Therefore his parents said, "He is of age; ask him." 24 So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, "Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner." 25 He answered and said, "Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see."
Dorkface
01-13-2005, 14:44
Originally posted by Bill+Jan 12 2005, 06:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bill @ Jan 12 2005, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Dorkface@Jan 12 2005, 02:29 PM
it seems like the only animosity and confrontation has been coming from you. youve admitted yourself that you havent been able to spend alot of time on the board, one which everyone is gratefull you provide, so it almost seems like part of the problem is you havent had time to get to know alot of they guys and gals here. which seems to drive what seems to be some misconeptions from you about some of us.
like me for example. it seems like you think im some sorta homopohbic religous person who is intollarant of any ideas but my own. its just not true. i enjoy reading the debates between sword slinger and swill to see where they end up lol. and i also know that they have total respect for each other, as do most everyone else in the great forum. i dunno what i tihnk about religion and am always curious to see what other people think. the last time i was in church i was under 10 yrs old. so why not calm down a little have a couple :beer: 's and get to know all these great people before you go bonkers. :confused:
i aswell as everyone else i bet would love to talk to and get to know more about the mysterious person who has provided us all with one of our most favorite places on the net. :usa: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :usa:
Thank you for the kind comments near the end.
With respect to the very first of your comments: Let's say you owned a tavern and left on vacation, and when you came back, it was filled with Hare Krishnas that didn't drink beer, all they did was take up space and buy $2 sodas.
First of all, your good $3 beer drinking crowd is gone, and you lose the burger revenue as well. Every time a beer drinking, burger eating patron comes in, the Hare Krisha's give'm a dose of pamphlets and flowers. Soon the word gets around that if you want guys in orange robes, go to Bill's Tavern. If you want beer and burgers, go elsewhere.
Now turn that around here. There is no comfortable conversation in Chit Chat that doesn't turn into a anti-Democrat, Pro-Christianity festival. Well, I exaggerate a bit, but still. I want my old board back, even if it only had 1000 members and fewer posts.
I don't ~care~ if 90% of this community is Red State, Right Wing, Church Going, and male. I am here to PROMOTE the 2nd Amendment and firearms enthusiasm, and the anti-Democrat or Pro-Bible "enthusiasts" [a] aren't helping and don't care. I mean that. There is no room for compromise in their mindset, so they'd rather preach to a small choir rather than expand the purpose of this board.
Getting to know someone isn't going to help if those people are intolerant of different beliefs. Christians are welcome here, but this isn't a preachers pulpit, it's not a recruiting zone. I want Jews, Buddhists, Blacks, Browns, legal immigrants and Women and kids to all be comfortable and welcome here. Bring'em all here as long as they are firearms enthusiasts.
As soon as more quiet members start questioning the direction of the board, it's time for me to try and give it direction. If I SUCK at giving direction, so be it, it's my board. If 1/2 the posters here leave because they don't like it, that's a shame, but it's a free site and it won't hurt me a bit. [/quote]
I compleatly understand what your trying to do. but why not keep both the Hare Krishnas AND the Beer drinkers? that way you can get more money. and it seems you found the way in making a new forum.
as for getting to know people it does usually help if each side knows the other when trying to compromise and/or a solution to a problem. if you have an idea where someone is coming from you can get an idea of where they want to go.
:beer: :usa:
The issue is that if YOU walked into a tavern and most of what you saw was Hare Krishnas, you'd probably look for another bar.
By putting the bible banter here in another area, it let's people know that if they want to avoid it, it's easy. Like a non-smoking area in the tavern (LOL)
darjeeling
01-13-2005, 20:20
Originally posted by Bill@Jan 13 2005, 02:20 PM
Like a non-smoking area in the tavern (LOL)
...except we poor hapless fellows who live in over-legislated, over-regulated states (you know who you are) have to live with all taverns being one large no-smoking area.
Swordslinger
01-13-2005, 21:18
Originally posted by darjeeling+Jan 14 2005, 03:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (darjeeling @ Jan 14 2005, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bill@Jan 13 2005, 02:20 PM
Like a non-smoking area in the tavern (LOL)
...except we poor hapless fellows who live in over-legislated, over-regulated states (you know who you are) have to live with all taverns being one large no-smoking area. [/b][/quote]
Sounds like Lexington Kentucky. :lol:
BlenderWizard
01-19-2005, 22:36
Furthermore, you cannot prove the Bible's validity with the Bible itself. Here's an example: Go to Blockbuster or some other video store, pick up a movie box and read the back. I'll bet a lot of them say something to the point of "This movie's great." Is that neccessarily the case? No. You cannot use the movie's commentary on itself to prove that it is good. Who would make a movie and put "this sucks" on the back of it? You have to investigate further to prove or disprove the movie's claim. The same basic principle applies here.
BadKarma
01-25-2005, 06:10
Silly Christians!!! :confused:
This has really been entertaining. We Pagans really enjoy watching this kind of fallout.
:samurai:
:sniper:
Swordslinger
01-25-2005, 06:21
Originally posted by BadKarma@Jan 25 2005, 01:10 PM
Silly Christians!!! :confused:
This has really been entertaining. We Pagans really enjoy watching this kind of fallout.
:samurai:
:sniper:
Yeah, I bet you do. But you have not seen any Christians "fall out".
Sorry to dissappoint you. :( No, not really, Im just being cute. :)
Krav, here is another one. I do believe this is what you call trolling.
BadKarma
01-25-2005, 15:49
I would like to apologize to everyone for my trolling remark.
I'm sorry if it offended anyone.
I did not take it as offense, keeps me on my toes to be a better christian. Join in anytime.
-tri :usa:
Swordslinger
01-25-2005, 16:25
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 25 2005, 11:15 PM
I did not take it as offense, keeps me on my toes to be a better christian. Join in anytime.
-tri :usa:
Agreed!! Nuf' said!
BadKarma
01-26-2005, 14:36
Religion (or your belief) is probably one of our most prized personal “possessions”, for lack of a better word. And yes, my belief is as far from most everyone’s on this board as it can be. But I would not even think for a minute to try and convert anyone to believe the same as I do. Your ideas work for you and my ideas work for me. If you or someone else is curious and would like to know more about it, I would gladly answer any questions you might ask.
I respect everyone’s personal choice and would ask the same in return. But if Mel Brooks can poke fun at the Spanish Inquisition, I can take a ribbing.
:D
Originally posted by BadKarma@Jan 26 2005, 04:36 PM
Your ideas work for you and my ideas work for me. If you or someone else is curious and would like to know more about it, I would gladly answer any questions you might ask.
Most religions concern what will happen to us after our earthly body dies, so it's kind of a matter of faith in regards to how well it will work for ya ;) but, ok, I'll bite... which religion ya sellin?
Wait a minute... maybe I shouldn't bite!!! (big time fishing/trolling theme here, hmmmmm) if it looks like it, smells like it, tastes like it, it prolly is and I shouldn't eat it.... im such a sucker... disregard this post, lol :lol:
And, no thanks.
BadKarma
01-26-2005, 15:52
I'm not fishing or trolling for anything. I was just trying to explain myself. I'm sorry if I didnt express myself clearly. :(
Just trying to voice my view.
I'm curious, let us hear your flavor, I won't beat on ya. I'm a God, gun, guts, and ol' glory type of guy, with the christian view flavor. Its what America is about I hope we don't come across like a bad bunch of biker type christians looking for a fight. Welcome brother!!
-tri :usa:
Swordslinger
01-26-2005, 17:31
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 27 2005, 12:05 AM
.... I hope we don't come across like a bad bunch of biker type christians looking for a fight. Welcome brother!!
-tri :usa:
Nope! Welcome BadKarma. No hard feelings. :)
Sword and Tri say it way better than I.
We've only had this new subforum for a couple weeks... and we've taken a few initial beatings ourselves, heh heh.... from some that think we're unrealistic (and prolly stupid) for believeing in God. Anyways, that's my excuse (pretty poor one too).
Lemme introduce myself.... Sometimes I'm a big mouthed, sarcastic, knowitall :lol: (great combination huh?) and sometimes I just keep my mouth shut! :blink: Welcome to the forum BadKarma!
:beer: :beer:
and... sorry for the beating, heh heh... only meant it to be a heavy handed pat on the back ;)
Wow. man...i just got caught up on this thread. how interesting!
A few points to consider:
Any historical document (sorry, even including the Bible) must be carefully examined and critically analyzed. The Bible is a work of living history but it must be noted that we are reading something that was originally written in 2 or 3 different languages (only one is still spoken in anything approaching its orginal form) and most of it was set down between 1500 and 1900 years ago. Alot has changed since then. The modern reader lacks critical areas of context and interpretation. Additionally, it must be accepted that even this most sacred of books has been revised many times since it became canon, and not all of those changes were made with the best of intentions. The King James version is a classic culprit. It is a matter of historical record that James II of England paid to have the Bible re-written to cast a more favorable light on the English. Even without taking this abberation into account, it is very much like we are playing a game of 2,000 year-old "telephone," and half of the players are speaking Hebrew or Aramaic.
Lesson: Be wary of quoting the Bible. Naturally, quoting the Bible to justify the Bible's teachings is a logical paradox.
for example: Im sorry to pick on you Slinger, but in one of your posts a few pages back, you kind-of "double-quoted" yourself by reciting a pair of passages from Luke and Matthew:
Originally posted by Swordslinger
Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
Luke 6:22 "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake."
well, which is it? Both are from the beatitudes. Each is a subtle variation. it should also be noted that this section does not appear in Mark, the earliest of the synoptic gospels (ca. 70-75AD...Mark makes reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which was in 74). These quotes of Jesus are thought to be one of many that arose from the mysterious "Q" document, which is lost to modern scholars.
Matthew and Luke are both from roughly 90AD, and the authors seem to go out of their way to contradict each other on a few fine points. The most notable is the direction that the disciples took after his resurrection....Did they go to Jerusalem, as Luke (24.52) suggests, or is it Galilee as asserted by Matthew (28.16)?
Sadly, we may never know. We may also never know where the original authors drew all of their motivation from. I guess my point is that even with an accurate English translation, (of which none truly exists) we cannot accept, word for word, what is written as accurate. There are too many contradictions. If we take the stand that the words are "open to interpretation," then we must accept all interpretations of them...even those that we do not like.
Fact: Jesus was a Jew...not a Christian (unless you accept Neitzche's maxim on the subject...and i tend to think that he was being facetious.)
Muhammed...also a Jew.
Yup...thats right, both Christianity and Islam are rooted in Judaism. naturally, all three religions are amazingly similar.
Another fact, and ill use the good Old Testament to back it up...God is never quoted anywhere in the Bible (old or new) as saying he is the 'only' God.
most often, Exodus 20 (the Ten Commandments) is used to imply that God is alone in the pantheon. That is simply not the case:
Exodus: 20.2-3(new international version)
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
the King James Version does not disagree, although the wording of verse 2 is a little different:
2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
No other gods before me....
Jonah and Job and Isaiah and Moses all have adventures where they must prove the power of the Judaen god above those of the Sumerians, Assyrians Egyptians etc. Each telling of such a contest merely asserts the supremacy of God over all others. It never denies the existence of other deities..It merely says that they are inferior!
God (or whatever you choose to call your deity) gave me freedom of choice and it is a pitiful squandering of that choice to cripple it behind so-called "faith." "Faith" does not mean that you blindly follow what men and the works of men tell you is true. "Faith" means that you use the gifts that God gave you....heart, mind, experience...freedom of choice to decide what is best.
Anyway, I hope you took the time to read what i have written and i hope that it is helpful in this entertaining theological discussion. I know that i have enjoyed it!
Sorry again: I was reading a bit more in the New International Version and i remembered the restof Exodus 20 had to do with Altars and Idols. How many churches have you been in that did not break these commandments?
If youre going to take the Bible at its word, you must take all the words!
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites this: 'You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.
24 " 'Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, [b] your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, lest your nakedness be exposed on it.'
Altars of dressed stone on steps...with idols of silver and gold...anyone? anyone?
BadKarma
01-27-2005, 06:36
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 26 2005, 04:05 PM
I'm curious, let us hear your flavor, I won't beat on ya. I'm a God, gun, guts, and ol' glory type of guy, with the christian view flavor. Its what America is about I hope we don't come across like a bad bunch of biker type christians looking for a fight. Welcome brother!!
-tri :usa:
I'm a Pagan and the path I follow is called Asatru. That is the Norse pantheology. To be more specific, I'm a Thorsman. Thor is my patron.
I see that tri is from Arkansas, well I'm not that far from you, I'm in the Branson MO area. So you know that this is the middle of the bible belt and I was forced to sample almost all the flavors of church's as I grew up. All of them were full of hipocrits(?). You know the line,"If you give me your money, you'll ............" And they are driveing Caddys while the farmers and folks are driveing 15-20 year old cars and trucks because thats all they can afford. But they do it anyway. I never made sense of it all.
Then my mom started me on geneology and I discovered that we are decended from Scottish Royalty and the Vikings. I started doing more research into my ancestry and discovered much more about their religeon. and there you have it.
Yes, I am a Pagan. Yes, I am a Warrior, just not a beserker (yet) ;).
But if I share a foxhole, its with a friend and thats all that matters (as long as the Rapture doesnt occur right before the battle). :D
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 08:00
Originally posted by BadKarma@Jan 27 2005, 01:36 PM
Then my mom started me on geneology and I discovered that we are decended from Scottish Royalty and the Vikings. I started doing more research into my ancestry and discovered much more about their religion. and there you have it.
Interesting!!! I know you seem to be set in your way. I have traced my ancestory back to the same line. Howdy Cuz! If you want to go back farther than the vikings, a friend of mine, E. Raymond Capt, has done some studies on this very subject. If the name sounds familiar, he some times is interviewed on the History Chanel. He has a book on the Scotish Declaration of Independence, that you would find interesting. Lots of good stuff on Robert The Bruce, and William Wallace. You can find his works HERE (http://www.artisanpublishers.com). You can also find materials that trace your ancetory back even farther than the Vikings. A well writen book comes to mind with the title of, "Stonehenge and Druidism". It traces the traces the practices of druidism back even farther, no NO, what he find is not negative.
There is a lot more to your line than where you left off BadKarma. You need to go back farther. ;) If you dont, your missing out on your Royal Inheritance.
That very interesting, sorry about finding no fellowship in the other churches you went to. I go to a Baptist church in a humble and small community. We wear blue jeans and tee shirts makes everyone more comfortable to talk too. Other Baptist churches that are closer to my house I don't feel comfortable because my new car is 10yrs old and not always washed and no dvd player. I do teach a sunday school class of 7th and 8th grade kids and I don't like to follow the Southern Baptist readers they alway give us. We talk about the war, some politics but mostly being a good nice person because thats what the world sees, we can't build up the body with a big Bible stick. :lol:
-tri :usa:
(1) Bible thumping is not self centered, it is sharing
(2) Judging by responses this is a topic that people care for
(3) As for intollerance; those that dont stand for something, stand for nothing
(4) Bill.
Thank you for participating at least 11 times in a thread that you believe shouldnt take place. Thank you for demonstrating your non-combative style that you preach against soo much. Thank you staying directly on the topic matter, we all know how offended you become when others dont. Thank you for demonstrating your tolerance of others that believe diffrently. You are such a stand-up guy.
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 08:25
Originally posted by JamesP+Jan 27 2005, 07:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JamesP @ Jan 27 2005, 07:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
for example: Im sorry to pick on you Slinger, but in one of your posts a few pages back, you kind-of "double-quoted" yourself by reciting a pair of passages from Luke and Matthew:
<!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger
Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
Luke 6:22 "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake."
well, which is it? [/b][/quote]
JameP,
First off, dont worry about picking on me, I can take it, AND I am used to it. :) The verses you quoted from me say pretty much the exact same thing. It is an account from TWO different people. Two wittnesses, as was/IS required by God's law. It is kind of like the game you play as kids, the story changes slightly as its is told on and on. But to look at the way The Word of God flows, and is written over centuries apart, by different people, it is amazing how well it flows together into ONE central meaning/message. Just astounding!! I have no problem with that, and yes, I do study the original languages for the words and their meanings.
I am not of what the world accepts as "judeo" Christian, and many of the argument that are used againt judeochristian wont work on me, as I do not see things as they do on certain matters. I do believe they (some) have the Important things figured out and they will learn the rest when God is ready. For instant:
I believe tha God created the heavens and the earth. I do not believe that the world is only 6000 yrs old. Nor do I think that the Word teaches it in the original languages. Could an " enemy hath done this"?
I do not believe that all "men" come from Adam. Nor do I think the Word teaches it. But if you go word for word from the english translations without studying the original language, then I could see why one would believe that. Could an " enemy hath done this"?
I dont not believe the Word of God teaches a Planet covering Flood, and every human today "evolved" from Noah's three sons. But if one were to read the King James verbatem, woth out studying the original language...well....Could an " enemy hath done this"?
You said Islam had is roots in judaism, not so. The decendants of Ismael are whom you are referring to. As far as "jews", that word is not mentioned until 2 King's 16:6. What you are referring to is that Islam has its roots back to the Hebrew religion. The ten Northern tribes (House of Israel) broke away from the 2 southern tribes of Judah, and Benjamin (House of Judah) Both went into captivity, one to Assyrian, and one to Babylon. The Assyrian captivity took the most of the House of Judah with it, and they were scattered, just a God said they would be. The word "jew" has several meanings, one is "of the tribe of Judah, of the area of Judea, of the religion of judaism" Christ was of the tribe of Judah, of Israelite heritage, and from Galilee. But did he refute the religion of judaism, known as the "Tradition of the Elder's" as was brought out of Babylon as a replacment for God's true comands given earlier on in thier history.
Christ said he, "came only unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Where were these "lost sheep"?.......
Those are some examples: You see the usual arguments will not work with me. :)
Good post JamesP. :)
Swordslinger,
You got to admit, you are a little off the beaten trak. I guess it doesnt surprise you that there are those find you to be a little nutty. Your beliefs remind me of a book I read once entitled" Sargon The Magnificient" by Sydney Bristowe. The book is a take-off of the old Babylonian inscriptions. It suggests and gives some evidence of pre-adamites and answeres a whole lot unanswered questions. They were black and this is where cain went as he joined other peoples. It also explains the the flood not covering the whole earth.
Its a good read if you want to enhance you beliefs, Or if your just curious as to where in the world do these people come from!!
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 09:41
Originally posted by tinman@Jan 27 2005, 04:20 PM
Swordslinger,
You got to admit, you are a little off the beaten trak. I guess it doesnt surprise you that there are those find you to be a little nutty. Your beliefs remind me of a book I read once entitled" Sargon The Magnificient" by Sydney Bristowe. The book is a take-off of the old Babylonian inscriptions. It suggests and gives some evidence of pre-adamites and answeres a whole lot unanswered questions. They were black and this is where cain went as he joined other peoples. It also explains the the flood not covering the whole earth.
Its a good read if you want to enhance you beliefs, Or if your just curious as to where in the world do these people come from!!
I recognize that name!! And upon your recomendation, I will try to get a hold of that and read it. Thanks Tinman!!
Yeah, I know Im off the accepted path of "judeo"Christiandom, but thats ok. :) We are to be as the Bereans who were more noble than those of the Theselonians. In that the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what they were being taught was so. I think Christ wants us to search to find out what they are teaching is so. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings to search it out.
The sad thing is, most people fall for alot of the lies, and when they see the physical evidence that refutes a certain teaching that comes from a "church", they dismiss Christianity alltogether. It s sad!!! :( We have enemies in the pulpits today, false prophets for profit. ie Baal Priests. Some are just misled, but I believe that our enemy has long since infiltrated the so called "church" a led many sheep to the slaughter. :(
Thanks Brother!! I will try to find that.
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 10:03
Tinman, I would have edited this into the other post, if we were responsible enough to be "blessed" with an edit buttom that lasted longer than 15minutes, but since we are not, I had to make another post.
As far as being thought of as nutty, hey, when you believe that most of the world is nuts, then when they call you nutty, its a compliment. :lol: Infact most of the names that I get called dont hurt at all. :lol:
I think I know where I saw that book....Im gonna find it. ;)
your long exposition notwithstanding, i was not trying to prove you wrong or attack you at all. I merely asked that you read carefully. You seem awfully ready to jump and defend your faith when no "enemy" exists, merely scholarly curiosity.
I never made any inference to the flood covering the whole earth, or the earth itself being a mere 6000 years old. Those "beliefs" are patently ridiculous, and i would not argue them even if they were presented.
neither the writer of Matthew, nor the writer of Luke was present at the sermon on the mount, where the beatitudes were spoken. As such, they cannot be "witnesses" in the Hebrew manner you suggest. Both of these works were first recorded ca 90-100AD, almost 3 generations after the fact. It is far more likely that they are both quoting "Q," which is why the wording is so similar. The nature of the "Q" document is very mysterious, and there is no extant copy. However, you can find references to in in Matthew, Luke and a couple of the apocryphal gospels, like Thomas.
I do not doubt that Jesus spoke these words, or words very similar...however, the fact that Mark (ca 70ad) makes no reference to these quotes is interesting. of course it could simply be because mark wasnt interested so much in the words as the actions of Jesus.
An important issue to note with the synoptic gospels in general is the subtle differences in interpretation in the space of only 20-30 years. I do not doubt that the men who wrote or copied the words of Mark did so with the best of intentions. However...if these differences are evident after only one generation, imagine what must have changed between Mark and the fall of Rome in 475AD (400 years, or the time between the first settlers in America to the present day) or through the Dark Ages to the time of Charlemange in ca. 800AD?
It is a fact, (and since you quoted Isaiah earlier) that the modern, Hebrew version of Isaiah has significant departures from one found in the scrolls from Qumran (the Dead Sea Scrolls).
The Essenes (a radical, ascetic group Rabbis) buried every document they could in sealed jars in caves near their 'hideout.' I use hideout, although 'monestary' is probably more appropriate, even though it is a christian term. The Essenes at Qumran were doing what religious men have always done...they were preserving and copying writings for the next generation. They buried everything, from legal documents, to scripture to grocery lists. It should be noted that they did not bury any documents of Christian origin. That would tend to argue that they did not have them on hand. That is interesting, because the Essenes hid all of their documents in 72-74AD as the Roman legions of Titus advanced through the area. That would be 40 years, give or take, after the death of Jesus.
As to Islam: You have given a passable account of the history of the 12 tribes...when do you suppose Islam first appeared? In fact, it is closer to 500AD, as any reader of even the first few pages of the Koran would know. As such, the Koran was written after the meetings of Constantine at Milan (ca 313) where the books of the Bible were made "canon." As a result, there would obviously be no mention of islam in the Christian works, and certainly not in the Hebrew books, which were fixed and remained canon after 90AD
Muhammed even purports to be continuing the tradition of Judaism in the Koran.
As for the "muslim" terrorists, they are no more "muslim" t