View Full Version : Is Christianity the One True Religion?
Why are Christians so arrogant in claiming that they alone possess the truth? Don't all religions lead to God?
A number of people equate religious tolerance with religious truth. Many assume that all religions are basically the same and that all beliefs are equally valid. They picture each religion as having identical faces hidden behind different masks.
However, sound reasoning tells us that all religions are not essentially the same merely because they contain some similarities. A brief survey of a few religions quickly reveals that each has competing, mutually exclusive claims. How, for example, can someone logically square the Hindu teaching that the universe is God with the Muslim belief that Allah, the God of Islam, is distinct from the universe? Thus, religions harbor irreconcilable differences, demonstrating that they cannot all possibly lead to the same God. Logically speaking, they can all be wrong, but they cannot all be right.
We, therefore, need to ask which religion points to the right God and consider how certain its claims really are. Regarding these questions, Christianity towers above the other religions of the world. For instance, while every other religion would have humanity try to reach up to God, Christianity says God reaches down to humanity. In other words, God's favor was obtained for humankind by Christ's life, death, and resurrection, and not by our own human merit (Eph. 2:8-9).
Furthermore, the Lord Jesus, who is God Himself cloaked in human flesh (John 1:1; 14), always backed His pronouncements with His own miracles (John 10:38), the culmination of which was His bodily resurrection from the dead (Matt. 28:6). None of the other religious figures throughout history have ever justified their respective claims with such power and authority. All people, regardless of their religious circumstances, need to hear and heed Christ's message because Jesus pointed to Himself as the only way to God (John 14:6).
This is an article from the Christian Research Institute.
Craig
Swordslinger
01-09-2005, 19:51
Well, It certainly is for me and my house. I am Christian, and consider myself to be HIGHLY intolerant of other religions in my personal circles. But they have that right under the current laws, and as long as they do not threaten the health, safety, and welfare of my family we will be fine.
But, The Day will come when every knee shall bow!! Praise YaH!!!http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smilesmiley2.gif
Joshua 24:15
" And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;........... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Metaldoc
01-10-2005, 15:55
It's kind of hard to understand those that deny Christ's deity, yet say He was a man of unusual wisdom and high character. They admire his teachings and endorse the values He taught.
Now, if they validate His teachings and declare Him to be of good character, how can they accuse Him of being a liar? Jesus Christ, in no uncertain terms, laid claim to being the very Son of God.
The doubters contradict themselves in their efforts to deny God.
Metaldoc
Swordslinger
01-10-2005, 16:06
Originally posted by Metaldoc@Jan 10 2005, 11:55 PM
Now, if they validate His teachings and declare Him to be of good character, how can they accuse Him of being a liar?
AMEN!!!! Doc!!
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Wouldn't it be funny if everyone was wrong and this is all there is? :blink:
:sniper:
GREYBEAR
01-10-2005, 16:53
Couldn't it be said that we were all the SONS & DAUGHTERS of GOD?
:beer: :rapid:
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
This is the hope that we as Christians have within us... that Jesus died for my sins.
How many of my sins had I when that happened? None, they were all future even the ones I have yet to commit as He paid that price 1900 + years ago. We will rise again also. You see your soul lives foreverrrrrrrrrrr.
The question is will you be in His presence or not?
Swordslinger
01-10-2005, 17:11
Originally posted by GREYBEAR@Jan 11 2005, 12:53 AM
Couldn't it be said that we were all the SONS & DAUGHTERS of GOD?
:beer:* :rapid:
Then what about the enemies of God? I think their is a real distinction between who are the "sons of God" and who are not, but are enemies of God and His People. But it is from scripture, so if people do not hold scripture up to the level that it is presented, then it does no good. The Holy Spirit is the one to reveal knowledge, as Christians, it is our responsibilty to tell folks HOW to recieve the Holy Spirit, once they get it, new things are reaveled to them that would not be accepted before. Things that you would have thought to be heresy before, now reveals itself to be truth that has been covered up by men seeking power.
The Word of God tells us how to "recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit". If one cares to find out how, they just need to follow the recipe in my sig line. There is a reason that I leave it everywhere I go. Its not out of trying to be "holier than thou" as Ive been accused of, its out of love and obedience to my King. :) Im no doubt the one who needs His Spirit the most. Cause Im a Bad, Bad man. :(
Couldn't it be said that we were all the SONS & DAUGHTERS of GOD?
Eph 2:2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
The phrase (according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience) is a reference to the Devil.
The human race is always trying to worship something, another thing that separates us from animals. The head guy of the church of scientolgy told everyone that he made it up but hollywood actors give thier alligance to.
Every body is looking for something more, instead of something simple.
Man is not perfect in his ways of trying to convince the world of what he has found in Christ. What a great nation we have founded on Christanity, no other nation can compare to what we can give. The other nations that follow Islam, Buddist, athesis, or agnostic government views depend on the US and its Christian majority.
-tri :usa:
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 10 2005, 07:32 PM
The human race is always trying to worship something, another thing that separates us from animals.
Good point.
A primary thing that separates us from animals is our ability to reason and the fact that we acknowledge our own existence, as well as a time frame for that existence.
Tankcommander
01-11-2005, 15:05
Guys this is deep stuff, But even the Christains have fragmented into several sects are they all right? Catholic vs Protestan vs Lutherain vs Baptist ETC.. are all of them right even though they differ in some of their core beliefs. The message of Jesus has been translated edited and interpreted for 1900 years how much of it is the pure word of Christ. If memory serves the first gospels were written decades after his death.
I minored in religion in college and one thing I learned was how the organized religions twisted the word of God to suit the desires of men. A major dispute in the 4th or 5th century about the nature of Christ, man vs god was settled with a vote to repair the scism and all dissenters were crushed.
I think I'd prefer the Viking religion die with your sword(or mini-14) in your hand have a Viking funeral and go to Vallhalla to sit beside Odin.
TC
GREYBEAR
01-11-2005, 16:03
TC, you think as I do. Religion as it has always been is nothing more than one mans or group of men way of controlling others, whether it was a tribal Shaman or good upstanding Christians such as Jim Baker or even Jim Jones.
:beer: :rapid:
Metaldoc
01-11-2005, 16:15
Originally posted by GREYBEAR@Jan 11 2005, 06:03 PM
or good upstanding Christians such as Jim Baker or even Jim Jones.
:o :huh:
That's like judging every woman in the world based on Hillary Clinton. :(
Not realistic and not a fair call. Kind of a low blow in fact.
Metaldoc
swill269
01-11-2005, 16:43
:o
the teachings of buddha are just that, not gospel or favoring one "god" over another. they teach that you should respect all peoples god/beliefs and that you are your own product of life; you are what you make yourself.
there is no honest/truthful court in the world which would or could say the bible is absolute and that god is real. if god/good is anywhere, it is in your heart/thoughts/actions. the bible is a plea for humanity to get their sh## together and love your fellow man. for every time you hear someone say "i love..." you hear ten more say "i hate...". it is more human nature to be defensive/doubting than loving/accepting. this is the same in the "animal" kingdom only it is not cluttered or disguised with the ability to place "faith" in a superior/imagined being. animals will defend/fight to the death to protect/live. they are not confused by religious convictions or teachings to do what comes natural.
we on the other hand place to much value/faith in a belief/ideology to the point we will kill a nonbeliever for that very reason alone. an atheist is pure of religious prejudice and no holy war is fought because they can't/won't do anything else but prove their god is best. man is the only creature/animal which will assault you for your belief/ideas. man is worse than a scared rabbit when it comes to a new idea and he will pray that it does not effect his environment and kill if he thinks it will. most of the nasty heat and arguing i have witnessed here is fear/disaggreement of/with ones beliefs, politics and personal values pitted against another. :eek: i don't brag about being human because i know a herd of cows are not going to nuke me for being atheist, christian, etc., but a human could/would.
religion is a man made thing like money, jobs, etc. therefore it is flawed with human frailties and weaknesses. religion is not salvation but damnation in the overall scheme of all things real in life.
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and everything will be all right. don't worry about what they believe/think/say, but what they DO.
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 16:57
Originally posted by Metaldoc+Jan 12 2005, 12:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Metaldoc @ Jan 12 2005, 12:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-GREYBEAR@Jan 11 2005, 06:03 PM
or good upstanding Christians such as Jim Baker or even Jim Jones.
:o :huh:
That's like judging every woman in the world based on Hillary Clinton. :(
Not realistic and not a fair call. Kind of a low blow in fact.
Metaldoc [/b][/quote]
Indeed!!
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 16:58
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 12 2005, 12:43 AM
an atheist is pure of religious prejudice......
Really? <_< Dosnt "prejudice" mean to "pre-judge"?
swill269
01-11-2005, 17:01
:o
to make my point of the "HATE" syndrome, we now have a hate poll going. it could have just as easily been a "LIKE" poll :rolleyes:
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 17:02
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 12 2005, 01:01 AM
:o
to make my point of the "HATE" syndrome, we now have a hate poll going. it could have just as easily been a "LIKE" poll* :rolleyes:
:cool:
Actually, it is a "suck" poll. :lol:
Actually, LOVE is about the ONLY thing taught in the mainstream churches these days. I will give you some fuel. But feel free to call me a "hater". And, Thank you. :)
Psalms 119:113 "I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love."
Psalms 97:10
"Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked." (Praise The Lord!!)
Psalms 139:21 "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." (Amen!!)
And I know I am hated in return. To those I say, Thank you. :)
Psalms 18:17
"He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me."
2 Samuel 22:18
"He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me."
Psalms 18:40
" Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me."
The Lord is hated as well. And it is my opinion, and the teaching of the Word, that loving those that hate Him, is causing us quite a bit of trouble in this nation today.
2 Chronicles 19:2
"............... Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD."
But we have Christ that came to save us from those that "hate" us.
Luke 1:71
"That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;"
You wont catch me BEGGING people to become a Christian. Once they have been given the Word, if they reject it............ well.........time to dust off your shoes. Dont get me wrong, I continue to be sad for them, very sad, but as Christians our responsibility is to reach His "sheep", then to feed His "sheep", and everybody aint a sheep. ;)
swill269
01-11-2005, 17:05
:o
swordsliger,
there is no religion or god to prejudge, ask a cow if it is worried about who is right. religion is a prejudice in itself by nature. ;)
:cool:
swill269
01-11-2005, 17:07
:o
swordslinger,
i agree. (suck poll)
:cool:
GREYBEAR
01-11-2005, 17:14
Metaldoc, Yes I admit it is a low blow, but it happens. How many people are fooled by the kind of bible thumping, scripture spouting piles of garbage like the ones I mentioned. Are those who fall for the line "send me Money, and I will talk to god for you" so weak minded or brain washed into thinking that they need a go- between to communicate with the Almighty. Is a church really necessary? All I have to do is step out into my yard, and I can see the wonder of the Almighty. I look at children at play, and I see the hand of the God. The reason Christianity is so big, it became the state religion of the Roman Empire, and since then it was convert or die. And after many centuries of countless wars, many did. Now Islamic fundamentalists are trying the same and want to catch up. Look at history, see what humanity in the name of religion has done. Yes there has been much good, but there has also been much evil and intolerance. If humanity doesn't learn from the past, there will only be more holy wars, until we kill ourselves.
:beer: :rapid:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 17:36
Originally posted by GREYBEAR@Jan 12 2005, 01:14 AM
....but there has also been much evil and intolerance.
Is intolerance evil? Carefull.
Metaldoc
01-11-2005, 17:36
Greybear,
I would not begin to argue that much wrong has been done in the name of Christianity. Televangelists in general are whoremongers. There are people that follow rock stars or celebrities just as there are followers of the TV guru's. And they are all nuts IMHO.
I call myself a Christian because I believe in God, The Father, and am a follower of Jesus Christ. Perhaps disciple would be a better word.
I agree, you can just look around and see the proof of God everywhere you look. I feel the same way, looking at His Creation in nature, children at play, etc.
Many, many churches are way off the track. I look past denominations and look instead to the individuals beliefs. Churches are to be for fellowshipping in Christ and worshipping Him. Too often that is far from the truth. I distance myself from those churches, but not from Christ.
Yeah, there are a lot of rotten eggs in the Christianity basket, but that doesn't discredit God, just the rotten eggs. That is the evil that is in the world. That is Satan at work. If he can undermine the church, what better way to fight his battle. (Which by the way, he has already lost.)
Metaldoc :usa:
swill269
01-11-2005, 17:46
:o
swordslinger,
it is a negative/not good in lieu of the "turn the other cheek" philosophy. in reality it is a must; turn the other "cheek" and walk away from it if it upsets/angers/threatens you. a threat warants keeping vigilance until secure/death. :(
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 18:00
Originally posted by Metaldoc@Jan 12 2005, 01:36 AM
Greybear,
I would not begin to argue that much wrong has been done in the name of Christianity. Televangelists in general are whoremongers. There are people that follow rock stars or celebrities just as there are followers of the TV guru's. And they are all nuts IMHO.
I call myself a Christian because I believe in God, The Father, and am a follower of Jesus Christ. Perhaps disciple would be a better word.
I agree, you can just look around and see the proof of God everywhere you look. I feel the same way, looking at His Creation in nature, children at play, etc.
Many, many churches are way off the track. I look past denominations and look instead to the individuals beliefs. Churches are to be for fellowshipping in Christ and worshipping Him. Too often that is far from the truth. I distance myself from those churches, but not from Christ.
Yeah, there are a lot of rotten eggs in the Christianity basket, but that doesn't discredit God, just the rotten eggs. That is the evil that is in the world. That is Satan at work. If he can undermine the church, what better way to fight his battle. (Which by the way, he has already lost.)
Metaldoc :usa:
Well said Doc!! You are a good wittness for The King. Much better than I. :(
religion is a man made thing like money, jobs, etc.
You are right here, religion is a man made thing. What is needed here is relationship. That is why we were created. Of course that opens up a whole other set of discussions.
Is a church really necessary? All I have to do is step out into my yard, and I can see the wonder of the Almighty.
yes, it's about the fellowship of other Christians. There are no lone ranger Christians.
Look at history, see what humanity in the name of religion has done.
That really is the point, that man is inherently bad and in need of a Savior. That is why we can't look to men or a man. We need to keep our eyes on Jesus, He is the example and we all fall short. The good news is that when we stand in answer to our sin Jesus says I've got him covered, paid his price in full. Hallelujah.
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 18:15
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 12 2005, 01:46 AM
:o
swordslinger,
it is a negative/not good in lieu of the "turn the other cheek" philosophy. in reality it is a must; turn the other "cheek" and walk away from it if it upsets/angers/threatens you. a threat warants keeping vigilance until secure/death. :(
:cool:
Reminds me of an illustration.
One of the biggest football players on the team, "found religion" he had been known as quite a bully before, but had repented and changed his ways. All of the guys were ribbing him, and having a little fun.
Then, this little skinny guy who was a smart butt to begin with came up and said, "Hey, Big fella, I here your a Christian now, is that right? The Big jock said , Yes, it is true. Then smartypants said, "Well if your a Christian now, then I can step up on this bench and slap the crap out of you, and you will have to turn the other cheek. Isnt that what your "lord" says?" He said, " yes, (reluctantly) yes it is." So the little guys stepped up and...Whap!! knocked the crap out of him. The Big guy with a big red whelp on his face and a trickle of blood runnin out of his nose, looked back at him. The little guy says, "ah...ah..ah.. you have to turn the other cheek" He said, Yes (reluctantly) yes I do. He did and..... Whap!!! The little guy hits him again!!! All of a sudden, the Big guy graps him by the throat, and slams him against the lockers and starts whailing on him. Smartypants says.... Wha...wha...what.. are you doing....?? Your suposed to turn the other cheek, arnt you???? The Big guy says, " yes and Ive done that,you see, Im a new Christian, and beyond that, I have no further instruction!!! ;) :lol:
swill269
01-11-2005, 18:52
:o
religion was not created/developed from "positive" aw and wonder, it came from the fear of the unknown: occasional tornado, lighting, tsunami, volcano, earthquake, avalanche, etc.
man will take anything he likes, no problem. mostly with no gratitude either. let the shtf and disrupt tranquility and fear runs rampant. tribes, groups, nations, etc. have been around forever, "strength in unity" ain't new. collectively by combat, vote, size, color, etc. the group settles on a "leader" to bind them together, bonding ain't new either. the leader is looked to for guidance, protection, healing, providing, etc. if everything is rolling along ok, plenty of food, water, shelter, and territory; then everybody is happy.
in the middle of the night the earth opens up and swallows half the nation. when daylight comes and all of the destruction, mayhem, tragedy, death and carnage are apparent, folks want answers, they need relief. who ya gonna call? mr. leader what the hell have you done? uh, uh, it's not my fault, i did not have a thing to do with it. who did then? uh, uh, let me see, this is big sh## i need time to find out. ..... ladies and gentlemen, may i have your attention please. after careful consideration and counseling with my assistants, i have detemined we have a, boogyman, devil, bad "spirit", unknow to us before.
we must now protect ourselves from this ugly darkness by eating a pound of sand while facing the glowing orb which comes out of the earth to light our way. ...next time the shtf the guru says we got to sacrifice a virgin (women have always gotten the short end of the stick from men, but not all men), this will hold em til the next one.
after awhile all the folks around are losing faith in his power. they are sacrificing like crazy and the shtf more often and in many different ways. it is time for him to "pass the buck". uh, uh, you see i must confess. there is this "god" thing that really makes the good and i have been sort of taking the credit, but since he talks through me i am still your leader, OK. he says you need to give lambs and bananas to the flat rock at the bottom of sacred hill.
there are a million different ways it started, but a "god" did not get credit until "man" could not stand the heat and had to get out of the kitchen. the bottom line is man "created" religion because of weakness and lack of responsibility to his nation, tribe, group, flock. the big reason this happened was because of "ignorance". we know what an earthquake is, we know what a bolt of lighting is made of, we know how to measure the depth of the oceans, we know how to measure the distance to the moon, we know how to measure the amount of gravity on the moon, we know how to get to the moon to prove it. still ignorant though.
if there was a "god", his presents would have been known immediately by all and we would not be so damned far apart on which "god" to choose. we keep making them up and fighting about them, killing one another over a "vision". "man is an animal"
:cool:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 19:12
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smiley_aall.gif Dont hog it Steve, pass it to the next pue, ok. :lol:
swill269
01-11-2005, 19:34
:o
swordslinger,
truth is: i could not do this if i had no audience, so i must preach when/where i can!
the truth will set you free, be good because you want to, not because you are threatened with hell fire and brimstone. are you really good, or pretending to be out of fear? "he knows when youv'e been good or bad, so be good for goodness sake". this really sums it up.
i had rather be good for my sake and the well being of others because that is my personal goal, it feels good too. to know that i can do what most can not do, even with the help of their "god", gives me a big head. sorry; it comes natural to me, like falling off a log, nothin' to it, just do it. ;)
:cool:
P.S. the poll got pulled, someone has culled the crap. :D
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 19:48
Originally posted by swill269@Jan 12 2005, 03:34 AM
.....sorry; it comes natural to me, like falling off a log, nothin' to it, just do it.*
Oh, I dont doubt that it comes natural, not one bit. ;)
1 Corinthians 2:14
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 19:58
Sniper, you never did tell us how OLD you are. You anit gettin away from this one!!! :lol:
the truth will set you free, be good because you want to, not because you are threatened with hell fire and brimstone. are you really good, or pretending to be out of fear? "he knows when youv'e been good or bad, so be good for goodness sake". this really sums it up.
The Christian is greived by his sin not because of being threatened by Hell fire, he already knows that he isn't going there. It is the seperation from God that sin produces that is greivous to the Christian. This is all a supernatural relationship that as Bill quoted the natural man knows nothing.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
The one thing that gets me about some of those practicing christianity, is that when they're asked a question about it they tend to start preaching with an attitude that they're better than everyone else and they have the only answer.
What happened to tolerance, love they neighbor and all that stuff? The likes of people such as Jim Jones, Jim Baker, Jesse Jackson and any of them on television give all of the other religions something to really laugh at.
In short, I see a whole bunch of folks preachin' it but not many practicing it. I guess if spewing out scriptures and verses makes you feel better.........GO FOR IT!! But keep in mind, just because you found a pair of shoes that fit, doesn't give you the right to go around nailing shoes on peoples feet.
:sniper:
I can't believe how many people think that gun nuts are automatically conservative Christians. How myopic!
Despite that fact that I find bible-thumping to be rude, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'll let this thread go. Just keep it to a debate and don't get personal, ANYONE.
guess I couldn't hold out any longer... Metaldoc and Sword are not to be trifled with.
For the athiests, there is little to do except wait for them to get the call. My personal belief is that most liberals / athiests are just barely holding on to that argument so they can continue their deviant behaviors and feel good for now that they think they'll not ever be held accountable(except maybe to other people.) Basic human morals spring forth from God Himself.... ("in His image"), There is no "evolutionary" reason for morals, past self-preservation and preservation of your offspring. I try very hard as I get older to not "hate" i.e. dislike on the same level of intensity as love, only in the wrong direction. Occasionally one is forced to though, but not just because they don't believe the truth... I've been 18 yrs almost now in the military, I swore and oath to defend every American's right to make the wrong choice, even give my life for that right if need be. Let 'em make their choices, more room for me!
A MUST READ for anyone interested in this stuff is "So What's the Difference?" by Fritz Riddenour... compares 20 religions and pseudoChristian belief sets against Gospel Christianity. Lots of fun stuff in there about JW's and stuff. Of course it is written from a Christian POV so the other folks will find a lot of fault.
We can all still be civil, that's what's so great about our country!
The reason that scripture is quoted so much is that it carries far more authority than I could ever muster on my own. I don't know that anyone is going to come to knowing God from these discussions. It is an individual decision. We are called to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in us.
Here is a verse that is hard to live by because as Bill said we are self-centered by nature. I don't however wish to be thought of as being rude.
Phil 2:3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
One last thing, when I say "you" I mean the world, not "you" aimed at anyone in particular.
:sniper:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 20:57
Originally posted by Sniper@Jan 12 2005, 04:10 AM
The one thing that gets me about some of those practicing christianity, is that when they're asked a question about it they tend to start preaching with an attitude that they're better than everyone else and they have the only answer.
What happened to tolerance, love they neighbor and all that stuff? The likes of people such as Jim Jones, Jim Baker, Jesse Jackson and any of them on television give all of the other religions something to really laugh at.
In short, I see a whole bunch of folks preachin' it but not many practicing it. I guess if spewing out scriptures and verses makes you feel better.........GO FOR IT!! But keep in mind, just because you found a pair of shoes that fit, doesn't give you the right to go around nailing shoes on peoples feet.
:sniper:
Sniper,
What is any different about Christians "spewing out scripture", and some of the others here "spewing out thier beliefs"? I have heard some insults here, but not one coming from the ones of who you speak, "the Christians". But I can see several places were Christians are acused of being weak, stupid, and trying to nail a pair of shoes on someone. Wheres the tolerence? I dont believe in tolerence myself, nor does God's Law teach it, its just a made up Politicaly correct term(made up by the same folks that want your weapons) designed to control the weak, stupid masses who are dumb enough to fall for it. And I cant see here where anyone has tried to nail a pair of shoes to yours, or George Carlins feet. As far as being holier than "thou", there is no doubt in my mine that there are folks here, yourself included, that are ten times the man I am. I guess you could call me the "Supreme Sinner" That'd be true. :(
As far as Jim Baker, Jesse (The Rev :blink: ) and Jim Joneshttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/icon_smile_dead.gif, Im not insulted by you comparing me to them, because there is a difference in Christians, and "those that preach another Jesus" who Paul spoke of. And by thier friuts, it is clear the "jesus" they preach is on a Federal Reserve Note, probably Ben Franklin,(he had long hair too :lol: )
I really dont mind being called weak and stupid, here, let me "spew"(puke) out some more scripture for ya.
1 Corinthians 1:27
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"
The insults, remarks are welcome as well. Ill Just say THANK YOUStep back, now, I feel another "spew" (lets just call it puke) conin on. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/anim_toilet.gif
Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
Luke 6:22 "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake."
Keep em comin, I can use all the blessing I can get. ;)
Before you go to thinkin swill and I are "fightin", we are not. We just mean what we say, and say what we mean. We get along just fine.
Sniper, How old are ya? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Just kiddin, you dont have to tell. But we can still be freinds, right?
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 21:17
Originally posted by Bill@Jan 12 2005, 04:24 AM
I can't believe how many people think that gun nuts are automatically conservative Christians. How myopic!
Despite that fact that I find bible-thumping to be rude, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'll let this thread go. Just keep it to a debate and don't get personal, ANYONE.
Maybe we should do a poll to see how many "firearms Enthusist" are Christian. It may surprise you. Maybe the reason it keeps comin up.
swill269
01-11-2005, 21:28
:o
i ain't done nothin'. ...spewd and puked a little, i'm ok now. :lol:
waz up, somebody complainin'? we drawin' fire here or just makin' whopee?
if somebody wants me to shut, stand up and tell me.
:cool:
P.S. if somebody's complainin' bout my pen pal with the scriptures, i want to hear from you too. we're on the same story just different versions.
Originally posted by Swordslinger+Jan 11 2005, 09:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Jan 11 2005, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bill@Jan 12 2005, 04:24 AM
I can't believe how many people think that gun nuts are automatically conservative Christians. How myopic!
Despite that fact that I find bible-thumping to be rude, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'll let this thread go. Just keep it to a debate and don't get personal, ANYONE.
Maybe we should do a poll to see how many "firearms Enthusist" are Christian. It may surprise you. Maybe the reason it keeps comin up. [/b][/quote]
Swordslinger-
Why don't you put your energy into running your own narrow-focus Christian Gun Owners site? Because I certainly am very tired of your preaching. I'm not asking you to leave, I'm asking you to preach to someone who cares.
Yes, there are a lot of gun owners who are Christian. One of my favorites was Ronald Reagan. And as his son said, he didn't wear his Christianity on his sleeve, and he didn't see his Christianity as a mandate from God to go bully people with the bible. He was a great man, a true political conservative (which you and many on this board just don't GET the meaning of), and he didn't go pushing god 24x7.
Stick around and talk guns. Frankly I'm concerned that Chit Chat is becoming a right wing christian "bash'm-all" place. You can put a nice face on it, but simply chanting the Bible over and over and over is getting tedious and a bit obnoxious.
For what it's worth, I'm agnostic, and don't believe that Christ was the son of God. In fact, I don't believe in your God at all, not directly anyhow.
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 21:33
No Problem!! Why dont you leave this up and make sure everyone knows the rules.
Originally posted by jszy@Jan 11 2005, 08:39 PM
My personal belief is that most liberals / athiests ......
jszy-
Is a liberal atheist and vice versa? NO. And guess what, there are lots of beliefs and religions other than Christianity.
I'd ask you to keep your beliefs to yourself, but when you open up and say incredibly ignorant things like "most liberals / athiests" I think I'll just let you keep digging a hole for yourself. It might be entertaining.
swill269
01-11-2005, 21:35
:o :lol:
i see said the blind man to his three deaf daughters. :eek:
:cool:
swill269
01-11-2005, 21:48
:o
oh, well.
back to being a liberal weapons aficionado. ;)
:cool:
Originally posted by Sniper@Jan 11 2005, 11:45 PM
One last thing, when I say "you" I mean the world, not "you" aimed at anyone in particular.
:sniper:
There ya go gettin' all defensive. The spewing I'm talking about is in reference to the folks I mention, Jim, Jim and Jesse and the ones on television. I never compared you, Swordslinger, to them. Did you miss to last post? I'm not referring to you or anyone on this board.
I could care less if you, Swordslinger, post 15million pages of scripture. Please keep in mind, this is a gun forum and some here might find the scripture offensive. It's their prerogative. I've made no indication of a conflict between you and Swill. I'm still trying to figure that one out.
As far as my age, here ya go Swill, I'm 45. Is there anything else you want to know? I'm more than happy to tell all. I have nothing to hide and I hide behind nothing.
I'm not mad, upset or anything. Just on the road again with the laptop seeing what's going on in the world via the web.
As far as being friends. The only person I won't be friends with is dead. I wish I could have corrected that before he met his demise.
:sniper:
Swordslinger
01-11-2005, 21:55
I was just ribbin ya about the age poll.
swill269
01-11-2005, 23:28
:o
sniper,
the answer is "curiosity". if someone does have the answer/proof/information to help me change my mind, i want to be the first to know it. it's gonna take a "miracle" :lol: and i want to cash in on it. :beer: ;)
one more thing young man, would you show or tell me where i can see a picture of the finished product you used the chromed polished bolt on. the one you posted here awhile back. i need to know if the rest is as :eek: as the bolt.
thank you in advance, you are a kind man. :beer: :D
:cool:
Hi Bill-- It's your piece of the 'net and I fully agree with you that no one needs to be on a jihad here. I am choosing from this point on to not participate in the religious debates here, although it's fun to read. many of the folks make a lot of good reports. Not digging a hole, but even sometimes when someone does dig themself into a hole, they find something good at the bottom. The Ruger stuff is the core of the site and what keeps me coming around.
I should have used "and" instead of the "/" . I understand that liberal and athiest are not interchangeable terms, and am quite aware of many other belief systems. A sincere "Christian liberal" though definately would be interesting to talk to. I will end my participation of this topic here... A suggestion, call it "customer feedback" if this is a tavern, maybe get rid of the "General" forum, and narrow the scope of the site to just gun stuff. (?) There are plenty of other forums out there with these type of debates going on.
(the 320 pound woman post was pretty good, and I don't know where else that might have fit though.)
Dorkface
01-12-2005, 14:29
Originally posted by Bill+Jan 11 2005, 10:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bill @ Jan 11 2005, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 11 2005, 09:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Bill@Jan 12 2005, 04:24 AM
I can't believe how many people think that gun nuts are automatically conservative Christians. How myopic!
Despite that fact that I find bible-thumping to be rude, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'll let this thread go. Just keep it to a debate and don't get personal, ANYONE.
Maybe we should do a poll to see how many "firearms Enthusist" are Christian. It may surprise you. Maybe the reason it keeps comin up.
Swordslinger-
Why don't you put your energy into running your own narrow-focus Christian Gun Owners site? Because I certainly am very tired of your preaching. I'm not asking you to leave, I'm asking you to preach to someone who cares.
Yes, there are a lot of gun owners who are Christian. One of my favorites was Ronald Reagan. And as his son said, he didn't wear his Christianity on his sleeve, and he didn't see his Christianity as a mandate from God to go bully people with the bible. He was a great man, a true political conservative (which you and many on this board just don't GET the meaning of), and he didn't go pushing god 24x7.
Stick around and talk guns. Frankly I'm concerned that Chit Chat is becoming a right wing christian "bash'm-all" place. You can put a nice face on it, but simply chanting the Bible over and over and over is getting tedious and a bit obnoxious.
For what it's worth, I'm agnostic, and don't believe that Christ was the son of God. In fact, I don't believe in your God at all, not directly anyhow. [/b][/quote]
it seems like the only animosity and confrontation has been coming from you. youve admitted yourself that you havent been able to spend alot of time on the board, one which everyone is gratefull you provide, so it almost seems like part of the problem is you havent had time to get to know alot of they guys and gals here. which seems to drive what seems to be some misconeptions from you about some of us.
like me for example. it seems like you think im some sorta homopohbic religous person who is intollarant of any ideas but my own. its just not true. i enjoy reading the debates between sword slinger and swill to see where they end up lol. and i also know that they have total respect for each other, as do most everyone else in the great forum. i dunno what i tihnk about religion and am always curious to see what other people think. the last time i was in church i was under 10 yrs old. so why not calm down a little have a couple :beer: 's and get to know all these great people before you go bonkers. :confused:
i aswell as everyone else i bet would love to talk to and get to know more about the mysterious person who has provided us all with one of our most favorite places on the net. :usa: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :usa:
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 14:43
Originally posted by Dorkface@Jan 12 2005, 10:29 PM
i aswell as everyone else i bet would love to talk to and get to know more about the mysterious person who has provided us all with one of our most favorite places on the net.** :usa:* :beer:* :beer:* :beer:* :beer:* :usa:
Not everyone!! :lol:
Bill,
You are the most devisive, arrogant one of the whole bunch. Everyone here goes out of their way to try not to engage in name calling, personal attacks, ect... That is everyone but YOU. No one was arguing :blink:. No one was trying to force their beliefs on anyone. We were having a discussion. In case you havent noticed, I dont care whether you believe in "my" God or not. When I say I dont care, I say that knowing that not all are His. Should I hide my beliefs because they offend you? Are you really that sensitive?http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/violin.gif
Dont bother with an answer, you have already answered it.
GREYBEAR
01-12-2005, 15:53
Originally posted by Swordslinger+Jan 11 2005, 08:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Jan 11 2005, 08:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-GREYBEAR@Jan 12 2005, 01:14 AM
....but there has also been much evil and intolerance.
Is intolerance evil? Carefull.
[/b][/quote]
Sword, do you think that you can answer your own question without bible quotes? As recently history has shown us, the attrocities committed by the intolerance of Orthodox Christian Serbs upon their Muslim neighbors in the Balkans. In this country fine upstanding Christians who don white robes and hoods and go out to burn another Christian church, simply because those worshipers skin is a little darker than theirs, and in the process kill several little girls. Don't you think that this intolerance is evil. Where in the bible does it say that these acts are fine? Where does Christ teach that you can be intolerant of others beliefs? Please enlighten me. You stated that you are intolerant of others beliefs. WHY?
:beer: :rapid:
Why is it that so many people these days think that there are many different versions of the truth? TRUTH IS TRUTH and it is a FINE LINE!! Any deviation from truth is NOT truth and can be anywhere from slight misconception to complete lie. SO, why can people say that since there are so many religions, there must be many paths to God? It does not make sense. AKKKKK. It is frustrating to me to argue against the Shrodinger idea that truth is only based on ones perception.... An apple seen by one as an orange, is an orange -- and another may see it as a banana, so it is a banana.... LOL! It's always been an apple and that's it!! This is the way religious, and non-religious beliefs are. "Religion," defined as "laws of men to control the masses," really is just a bunch of "versions" of truth. I believe that the definition of religion is pretty much "a version of the truth, designed in arrogance, to create self power, control men, and ultimately hide truth." I am not religious. I believe in the ONE TRUTH through Christ Jesus, a way of life and the path to God. And although there are many religions, many non-religions, and many forms of Christianity, there is only ONE TRUTH!! Christianity is a personal quest to find truth (God) through Jesus (the answer) with the aid of reason (the Holy Spirit). Christianity is not a religion, it is a way of life. And yes, this way of life takes flack from all sides.
I really like the folks in this forum, mainly because of the vigilance of some of our Christian soldiers. I have not seen my Christian brothers here attack anyone. I have not seen them "bang others over the head with scripture." I have not seen them insult, or degrade others. I HAVE seen them be INTOLERANT of any argument that deviates from truth, by stating the truth with inspiration, love, and vigilance. Christ commands us to do this, with love. I HIGHLY commend you brothers for the way you carry yourselves. And, we Christians are being accused of being rude by people who really are the ones being rude! We may be intolerant of lies and deceit, but we do so with love to all our brothers -- to those who believe and to those who do not.
Cab, Doc, Tri, Sword, Dork, Jszy, and all others I forget to mention.... God bless you fellas for your courage and wisdom. I am happy to know that my fellow "gun nut radicals" are so intelligent -- so conservative -- so Christian! Praise God, Amen!
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 16:15
Originally posted by GREYBEAR+Jan 12 2005, 11:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GREYBEAR @ Jan 12 2005, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 11 2005, 08:36 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-GREYBEAR@Jan 12 2005, 01:14 AM
....but there has also been much evil and intolerance.
Is intolerance evil? Carefull.
Sword, do you think that you can answer your own question without bible quotes? [/b][/quote]
I tell you what, Ill answer the first half half without useing a bible quote, ok? Is that a compromise, or what? :lol:
By your deffinition of being "tolerant", then maybe we should tolerate Alqiada's beliefs that we should be wiped off the face of the earth along with the jews. Is that what you believe? Come on, you dont believe that. And I dont equate you with Alqiada for saying what you just said. But yet you equate me with the Klan, and every other hate group from here to the Balkans. How tolerant is that? You see the difference is that I dont claim to be tolerant when Im not.
Here comes the other half that I promised you.............hold on.....some real wisdom comin up here now.......
Matthew 7:6 "........... neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
Jesus told us to shine our light for the whole world to see, and to love our brothers. We must be intolerant!!! We must show that Christ IS the Way. Those that are intolerant AND do evil deeds, as you speak of Grey, are NOT us and they are NOT our ways. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 16:43
Thanks Tunug. I am the least of which you mentioned, and not worthy to be in that list.
Apparently today being tolerant means loving everyone and everything except Christians. And when some Christian says something to offend, go hire the services at The Law Offices of Handler&Wiener and file a lawsuit!
darjeeling
01-12-2005, 16:45
But y'all better remember, absolute certitude in your beleif is a sure fire way to become a fanatic. Why do I consider myself a Christian? Simple. Out of all the religions I have had the time to explore deeply, I found the core concepts to be the most beautiful and liberal (note: lowercase L, e.g. John Locke, J. S. Mill, etc.) religion, and also most consistant with my own personal philosophy. Why am I an agnostic? Thats a bit trickier. First off, I don't think with the limited perception of a finite being that I could ever be convinced completely of anything, much less something so murky as the existance of an infinite being with no direct and tangeble evidence in the (human visible) cosmos. Since I also want not to rule anything out, I realize assuming God exists is an equally absurd conclusion as assuming that God exists.
Yes, there is one truth. No, no-one will ever know what the hell that truth is. Anyone who says they know it is a liar, no matter how insightful or mostly correct they are. Even Jesus, assuming him to be half-divine/half-human, would be incapable in his finite form of knowing the truth. One of the few things we can know is anything in this world we perceive to be true (expecially on that scale) is not, no matter how close it is to said truth. WE MEN ARE NOT GODS! As such, we do not have the perseption, memory and clarity required to grasp the truth as it is. We can only grab at wispy, intangible and unverifiable forms of the absolute truth, and speculate on what it may be.
Anyone who can say with certitude that they know the absolute truth has at least one ideological beleif in common with the Islamofascist we are so busy rooting out on arab street.
Originally posted by jszy@Jan 12 2005, 01:33 PM
A sincere "Christian liberal" though definately would be interesting to talk to.
What is your definition of Liberal? Because there are plenty of Catholics in the democratic party. Last I heard, Catholics were Christian too.
Darjeeling, good post! I agree with you. I am skeptical by nature, and I NEVER am 100% sure about anything. And concerning my beliefs in God, I used to be agnostic with 50/50 beliefs. I am sorry if I came across there to make people think that I have all the answers, I certainly do not! I am becoming very much more sure these days that what I believe in is true... because God is working on me and showing me the truth, changing my beliefs, and it is the feeling of almost irrefutable certainty that wows me to the point of believing. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, which shows me the way to truth... this is the feeling that George W spoke of when he ran for president the first time.... "if you never felt it you wouldn't understand." This is the statement which the non-believers took offense to and thought George W was being "holier than thou know it all" but the Christians understood fully something very different from that statement. I believe that statement won him the election. I now understand that feeling... its not just certainty... it's REVELATION... the feeling of revelation, "I once was blind but now i see". So yes.... I am very sure of some of my beliefs, and since i am a skeptic.. that really means something. But no, i am rarely 100% sure of anything, and i have a LOT more to learn. Thanks for the input there, Darjeeling, to set me straight.... I agree with you 100% LOL no i mean maybe 50% ummmmmm i dunno.... i kinda agree wicha M8!!! hehe.... good post
Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 12 2005, 02:43 PM
Bill,
You are the most devisive, arrogant one of the whole bunch. Everyone here goes out of their way to try not to engage in name calling, personal attacks, ect... That is everyone but YOU. No one was arguing :blink:. No one was trying to force their beliefs on anyone. We were having a discussion. In case you havent noticed, I dont care whether you believe in "my" God or not. When I say I dont care, I say that knowing that not all are His. Should I hide my beliefs because they offend you? Are you really that sensitive?
Dont bother with an answer, you have already answered it.
Swordslinger-
I've been blasting out shotgun blasts of generalities, in order to let people self assess on their commentary.
But since you attack me directly, here is food for thought.
You call me arrogant, but in this VERY THREAD, you state:
I am Christian, and consider myself to be HIGHLY intolerant of other religions in my personal circles. But they have that right under the current laws, and as long as they do not threaten the health, safety, and welfare of my family we will be fine.
But, The Day will come when every knee shall bow!! Praise YaH!!!
Then you go on to say that it's your responsibility to push it on people:
Christians, it is our responsibilty to tell folks HOW to recieve the Holy Spirit, once they get it, new things are reaveled to them that would not be accepted before.
You think that intolerance is good
Is intolerance evil? Carefull.
By your own quotes, you are arrogant. Your God is the real god, the rest are false. Your brethren are saved, the rest are not. And so on.
I'm not even going to quote how many times you've taken a thread and tried to turn it into a religious topic by posting Bible quotes to back your point. It's getting old. It's like listening to a kid explain everything in terms of a video game they once played.
You have a signature that exceeds the size of many of your posts. I'm paying for your billboard advertising, in other words.
You have NUMEROUS high quality gun-tech posts on the other forums, and I acknowledge that. But to think that I should sit here and be called arrogant by one of the most arrogant bible thumpers on this board, well, that's down right hilarious.
BigUglyOne
01-12-2005, 17:34
Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 12 2005, 07:15 PM
And I dont equate you with Alqiada for saying what you just said. But yet you equate me with the Klan, and every other hate group from here to the Balkans. How tolerant is that? You see the difference is that I dont claim to be tolerant when Im not.
I don't see anything there that equated you to the Klan, Sword. What he asked is; Don't you think that this intolerance is evil. Where in the bible does it say that these acts are fine? Where does Christ teach that you can be intolerant of others beliefs? Please enlighten me. You stated that you are intolerant of others beliefs. WHY?
I believe he is acknowledging a difference and asking what the difference is!?
The question is actually a pretty good one. As you know, I claim you as a friend (a dubious distinction for you if there ever was one :lol: ) and I don't find you to be intolerant of MY beliefs. Nor have I seen an intolerance to, say, Swill's non-belief. The Klan, on the other hand, might bring their intolerance of Jews to a physical level, an actual hatred.
This is a lot harder to put into words than I thought it would be.
I guess the question is just what won't you tolerate? What is your level of intolerance ?
Jeez, somethin' like that.
(I knew there was a reason I didn't enter into many Religious discussions, I don't have the vocabulary!!)
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 17:52
Originally posted by Tunug@Jan 13 2005, 01:07 AM
Darjeeling, good post! I agree with you. I am skeptical by nature, and I NEVER am 100% sure about anything. And concerning my beliefs in God, I used to be agnostic with 50/50 beliefs. I am sorry if I came across there to make people think that I have all the answers, I certainly do not! I am becoming very much more sure these days that what I believe in is true... because God is working on me and showing me the truth, changing my beliefs, and it is the feeling of almost irrefutable certainty that wows me to the point of believing. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, which shows me the way to truth... this is the feeling that George W spoke of when he ran for president the first time.... "if you never felt it you wouldn't understand." This is the statement which the non-believers took offense to and thought George W was being "holier than thou know it all" but the Christians understood fully something very different from that statement. I believe that statement won him the election. I now understand that feeling... its not just certainty... it's REVELATION... the feeling of revelation, "I once was blind but now i see". So yes.... I am very sure of some of my beliefs, and since i am a skeptic.. that really means something. But no, i am rarely 100% sure of anything, and i have a LOT more to learn. Thanks for the input there, Darjeeling, to set me straight.... I agree with you 100% LOL no i mean maybe 50% ummmmmm i dunno.... i kinda agree wicha M8!!! hehe.... good post
Tunug, I agree. That was a good post. ;)
There is only ONE creator of our universe, and He told us that there is only one way to Him. [edited to add: This I am 100% sure of!]
Christ was intolerant of other religious beliefs, He is the way, the truth, and the life, and He commanded us to spread the gospel.
So, as far as tolerance goes.... the "other" paths to God are not tolerated as valid truth.
We as Christians tolerate other people, but we do not tolerate any other "truths," because there is only one Truth.
This thread is about this very subject... and we are all quite ON TOPIC!!
Originally posted by Dorkface@Jan 12 2005, 02:29 PM
it seems like the only animosity and confrontation has been coming from you. youve admitted yourself that you havent been able to spend alot of time on the board, one which everyone is gratefull you provide, so it almost seems like part of the problem is you havent had time to get to know alot of they guys and gals here. which seems to drive what seems to be some misconeptions from you about some of us.
like me for example. it seems like you think im some sorta homopohbic religous person who is intollarant of any ideas but my own. its just not true. i enjoy reading the debates between sword slinger and swill to see where they end up lol. and i also know that they have total respect for each other, as do most everyone else in the great forum. i dunno what i tihnk about religion and am always curious to see what other people think. the last time i was in church i was under 10 yrs old. so why not calm down a little have a couple :beer: 's and get to know all these great people before you go bonkers. :confused:
i aswell as everyone else i bet would love to talk to and get to know more about the mysterious person who has provided us all with one of our most favorite places on the net. :usa: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :usa:
Thank you for the kind comments near the end.
With respect to the very first of your comments: Let's say you owned a tavern and left on vacation, and when you came back, it was filled with Hare Krishnas that didn't drink beer, all they did was take up space and buy $2 sodas.
First of all, your good $3 beer drinking crowd is gone, and you lose the burger revenue as well. Every time a beer drinking, burger eating patron comes in, the Hare Krisha's give'm a dose of pamphlets and flowers. Soon the word gets around that if you want guys in orange robes, go to Bill's Tavern. If you want beer and burgers, go elsewhere.
Now turn that around here. There is no comfortable conversation in Chit Chat that doesn't turn into a anti-Democrat, Pro-Christianity festival. Well, I exaggerate a bit, but still. I want my old board back, even if it only had 1000 members and fewer posts.
I don't ~care~ if 90% of this community is Red State, Right Wing, Church Going, and male. I am here to PROMOTE the 2nd Amendment and firearms enthusiasm, and the anti-Democrat or Pro-Bible "enthusiasts" [a] aren't helping and [b] don't care. I mean that. There is no room for compromise in their mindset, so they'd rather preach to a small choir rather than expand the purpose of this board.
Getting to know someone isn't going to help if those people are intolerant of different beliefs. Christians are welcome here, but this isn't a preachers pulpit, it's not a recruiting zone. I want Jews, Buddhists, Blacks, Browns, legal immigrants and Women and kids to all be comfortable and welcome here. Bring'em all here as long as they are firearms enthusiasts.
As soon as more quiet members start questioning the direction of the board, it's time for me to try and give it direction. If I SUCK at giving direction, so be it, it's my board. If 1/2 the posters here leave because they don't like it, that's a shame, but it's a free site and it won't hurt me a bit.
BigUglyOne
01-12-2005, 18:01
I must say, old girl, that is a heck of an attitude ya got there!
Originally posted by jszy@Jan 12 2005, 01:33 PM
Hi Bill-- It's your piece of the 'net and I fully agree with you that no one needs to be on a jihad here. I am choosing from this point on to not participate in the religious debates here, although it's fun to read. many of the folks make a lot of good reports. Not digging a hole, but even sometimes when someone does dig themself into a hole, they find something good at the bottom. The Ruger stuff is the core of the site and what keeps me coming around.
I should have used "and" instead of the "/" . I understand that liberal and athiest are not interchangeable terms, and am quite aware of many other belief systems. A sincere "Christian liberal" though definately would be interesting to talk to. I will end my participation of this topic here... A suggestion, call it "customer feedback" if this is a tavern, maybe get rid of the "General" forum, and narrow the scope of the site to just gun stuff. (?) There are plenty of other forums out there with these type of debates going on.
(the 320 pound woman post was pretty good, and I don't know where else that might have fit though.)
Sorry for misinterpreting your typing there. I still think that there is too much generalization when it comes to liberal/conservative values and other areas.
Heck, the Republican Party isn't even politically conservative. The generalizations don't even make sense.
darjeeling
01-12-2005, 18:06
Thanks, For more info on the topic I have some suggestions for reading to get a better understanding of christianity. For those who are extremely patient, Georg Hegel's (yes, that facist bastard) Science of Logic is a good read. Anything by Soren Kierkegaard is good, but i'd suggest Works of Love, Repitition, Fear and Trembling, The Sickness unto Death, and The Concept of Dread. He has an incredible ammount to say about what is ideally christian and I beleive anyone who beleives or dislikes christianity should read his work to help clarify their beleifs. Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Vol: 3-6 are also good for the origin of the modern Christian religion.
This is cool. I can sit here and hit the "refresh" button and read a new post everytime. :lol:
:sniper:
Hey Bill!
Why be fine with the idea that half of us may leave? actually the one half gets along quite well with the other half.... or so it has seemed so until today.
We don't want to leave unless we are not welcome here. Could we have a little section where it is ok to chit-chat about our personal beliefs regarding God? I've seen it on other forums, and I think it is a great idea. This way, those who are offended with the idea of God do not have to read that particular section but still may participate in general chit-chat, and those who love to talk about God will have a place to do so appropriately. I think that most of us would like something like this.
BTW... thanks for keeping Bill's Tavern open.... I love it here. :beer: :beer:
Originally posted by Sniper@Jan 12 2005, 06:09 PM
This is cool. I can sit here and hit the "refresh" button and read a new post everytime. :lol:
:sniper:
LoL..... i know, cool huh? heh heh :beer: :beer:
Originally posted by Tunug@Jan 12 2005, 06:09 PM
Hey Bill!
Why be fine with the idea that half of us may leave? actually the one half gets along quite well with the other half.... or so it has seemed so until today.
We don't want to leave unless we are not welcome here. Could we have a little section where it is ok to chit-chat about our personal beliefs regarding God? I've seen it on other forums, and I think it is a great idea. This way, those who are offended with the idea of God do not have to read that particular section but still may participate in general chit-chat, and those who love to talk about God will have a place to do so appropriately. I think that most of us would like something like this.
BTW... thanks for keeping Bill's Tavern open.... I love it here. :beer: :beer:
I do NOT mean that I want half of you to leave. What I mean is that if I speak up and you (collectively, not you personally) don't like it, well, Welcome To My World. If collectively the users here tend to NOT like the place as much because it's less of a Chrisitan Brotherhood PTL Club hangout, then so be it. Because at the end of the day, I'm not here to help the PTL club with a clubhouse. I'm here to promote firearms.
The very best way might be to eliminate Chit Chat. I just have to figure that I'll get 3 days of hate mail and I'll lose some regular visitors. I don't want to do it, but worse things could happen. It's not going to affect my income, my sleep, or my personal life. Not negatively, anyhow.
BTW, that might be a good compromise. I'll put Religion in one forum, and ban it from the rest.
Nice compromise.....
darjeeling-
I see you are in Oaktown.
We should set up a PerfectUnion shoot up at Chabot. I'm in PTown (Pleasanton)
Swordslinger
01-12-2005, 18:23
Originally posted by BigUglyOne@Jan 13 2005, 01:34 AM
I guess the question is just what won't you tolerate? What is your level of intolerance ?
Im pretty sure thats what Bear was doin. I fugured he would, thats why I said, "carefull". :lol: Anyone thats angaist something will pick the most racical to prove their point. Its just human nature.
As far as what Im intolerant of......lets see......heres a few....
I really, really dont like child molesters. (I dont want to use the word hate, cause I might hurt someones feelings. But you probably know how I feel ;) )
I dont like green geans (out of fear of offending the Jolly Green Giant I continue to refrain from the word hate, but you probably know how I feel)
If I were still a drinkin man, Id say I hate (yeah thats right, hate) Wild Turkey, cause of the way the vomit tastes the next morning.
I dont like Alqaeda, or the Taliban. (Still being carefull not to use the word hate, cause I wouldnt want to offend Osamma :( )
I an very intolerant of the word "tolerant" (as it is meant today)
The list gets longer from here. To make it short, as to not be larger than my sig line, Ill say this. Im am intolerant of evil. Do we have different deffinitions of what is evil? Sure we do!! (althogh, you and I share several) Do we have different place from which we derive the word evil? Yes. I get mine from The Word of God. Does that keep me from excepting those with different beliefs from amoung my friends? No. Look at Steve and I. We are probably 180 degrees from each other, yet we share each others e-mail address. Hell, Ill even go as far as to say I like Steve, and would consider him friend.
You get the point? Its not that I am an intolerant monster,( I am to some, and that ok ;) ) I am just honest. The "theys" (who ever they are) have been useing our language as a weapon. "Gun Nut" is a good example. It has become so leavened that to hear someone say he/she is intolerant, conjures up images are Nazis, crosses burning, guys in white hoods (as Bear mentioned). When in reality, no one is "tolerant".( If they are, lets see some of it with me. Show me all that "love and tolerance" :lol:) Just to the extent that the liberal media has changed the deffinition to encompass the above images. And the whole world has fallen for it, hook line and sinker. :(
Now I must do this to keep up my reputation, so all of you people that are filled with "tolerance" bare with me, ok? Remeber, Im a just weak, narrow minded, arrogant, stupid, Bible thumper being controlled by those who use religion as a yoke upon me. So take it easy, ok? :lol:
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
darjeeling
01-12-2005, 18:24
Originally posted by Bill @ Jan 12 2005@ 06:21 PM
darjeeling-
I see you are in Oaktown.
We should set up a PerfectUnion shoot up at Chabot. I'm in PTown (Pleasanton)
Sweet! I'd love to meet the administrator. I guess we should get a thread going about this.
In the story of the blind man who was healed by Jesus the people who were confronted with the evidence of the miracle either chose to acknowledge that Jesus was who He said that He was...God or refused to believe. What makes Christianity so compelling to us because of what God has done in our lives. You see in this story the Pharisees could not refute the miracle, but they would not affirm Jesus as the Son of God ie. equal to God. Their unwillingness and disbelief had nothing to do with the truth. Although the Pharisees could punish the man who was born blind they could not refute his testimony. The testimony of what God has done in any of our lives who call Jesus on as Savior and Lord cannot be refuted either. There is a book, Fox's Book of Martyrs that describes the deaths of the Apostles. The deaths are all terrible; none of them would refute the truth to save themselves from the pain because they knew the truth and had an eternal perspective. They were all called by the Lord by name, and even still those who come to the knowledge of God are called by His Spirit, and it is a free gift just like Christmas. You only have to receive.
John 9:1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I* must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." 6 When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. 7 And He said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing. 8 Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was *blind said, "Is not this he who sat and begged?" 9 Some said, "This is he." Others said, *"He is like him." He said, "I am he." 10 Therefore they said to him, "How were your eyes opened?" 11 He answered and said, "A Man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, 'Go to *the pool of Siloam and wash.' So I went and washed, and I received sight." 12 Then they said to him, "Where is He?" He said, "I do not know." 13 They brought him who formerly was blind to the Pharisees. 14 Now it was a Sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15 Then the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, "He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see." 16 Therefore some of the Pharisees said, "This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath." Others said, "How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?" And there was a division among them. 17 They said to the blind man again, "What do you say about Him because He opened your eyes?" He said, "He is a prophet." 18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight. 19 And they asked them, saying, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?" 20 His parents answered them and said, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21 but by what means he now sees we do not know, or who opened his eyes we do not know. He is of age; ask him. He will speak for himself." 22 His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed that He was Christ, he would be put out of the synagogue. 23 Therefore his parents said, "He is of age; ask him." 24 So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, "Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner." 25 He answered and said, "Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see."
Dorkface
01-13-2005, 13:44
Originally posted by Bill+Jan 12 2005, 06:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bill @ Jan 12 2005, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Dorkface@Jan 12 2005, 02:29 PM
it seems like the only animosity and confrontation has been coming from you. youve admitted yourself that you havent been able to spend alot of time on the board, one which everyone is gratefull you provide, so it almost seems like part of the problem is you havent had time to get to know alot of they guys and gals here. which seems to drive what seems to be some misconeptions from you about some of us.
like me for example. it seems like you think im some sorta homopohbic religous person who is intollarant of any ideas but my own. its just not true. i enjoy reading the debates between sword slinger and swill to see where they end up lol. and i also know that they have total respect for each other, as do most everyone else in the great forum. i dunno what i tihnk about religion and am always curious to see what other people think. the last time i was in church i was under 10 yrs old. so why not calm down a little have a couple :beer: 's and get to know all these great people before you go bonkers. :confused:
i aswell as everyone else i bet would love to talk to and get to know more about the mysterious person who has provided us all with one of our most favorite places on the net. :usa: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :usa:
Thank you for the kind comments near the end.
With respect to the very first of your comments: Let's say you owned a tavern and left on vacation, and when you came back, it was filled with Hare Krishnas that didn't drink beer, all they did was take up space and buy $2 sodas.
First of all, your good $3 beer drinking crowd is gone, and you lose the burger revenue as well. Every time a beer drinking, burger eating patron comes in, the Hare Krisha's give'm a dose of pamphlets and flowers. Soon the word gets around that if you want guys in orange robes, go to Bill's Tavern. If you want beer and burgers, go elsewhere.
Now turn that around here. There is no comfortable conversation in Chit Chat that doesn't turn into a anti-Democrat, Pro-Christianity festival. Well, I exaggerate a bit, but still. I want my old board back, even if it only had 1000 members and fewer posts.
I don't ~care~ if 90% of this community is Red State, Right Wing, Church Going, and male. I am here to PROMOTE the 2nd Amendment and firearms enthusiasm, and the anti-Democrat or Pro-Bible "enthusiasts" [a] aren't helping and don't care. I mean that. There is no room for compromise in their mindset, so they'd rather preach to a small choir rather than expand the purpose of this board.
Getting to know someone isn't going to help if those people are intolerant of different beliefs. Christians are welcome here, but this isn't a preachers pulpit, it's not a recruiting zone. I want Jews, Buddhists, Blacks, Browns, legal immigrants and Women and kids to all be comfortable and welcome here. Bring'em all here as long as they are firearms enthusiasts.
As soon as more quiet members start questioning the direction of the board, it's time for me to try and give it direction. If I SUCK at giving direction, so be it, it's my board. If 1/2 the posters here leave because they don't like it, that's a shame, but it's a free site and it won't hurt me a bit. [/quote]
I compleatly understand what your trying to do. but why not keep both the Hare Krishnas AND the Beer drinkers? that way you can get more money. and it seems you found the way in making a new forum.
as for getting to know people it does usually help if each side knows the other when trying to compromise and/or a solution to a problem. if you have an idea where someone is coming from you can get an idea of where they want to go.
:beer: :usa:
The issue is that if YOU walked into a tavern and most of what you saw was Hare Krishnas, you'd probably look for another bar.
By putting the bible banter here in another area, it let's people know that if they want to avoid it, it's easy. Like a non-smoking area in the tavern (LOL)
darjeeling
01-13-2005, 19:20
Originally posted by Bill@Jan 13 2005, 02:20 PM
Like a non-smoking area in the tavern (LOL)
...except we poor hapless fellows who live in over-legislated, over-regulated states (you know who you are) have to live with all taverns being one large no-smoking area.
Swordslinger
01-13-2005, 20:18
Originally posted by darjeeling+Jan 14 2005, 03:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (darjeeling @ Jan 14 2005, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bill@Jan 13 2005, 02:20 PM
Like a non-smoking area in the tavern (LOL)
...except we poor hapless fellows who live in over-legislated, over-regulated states (you know who you are) have to live with all taverns being one large no-smoking area. [/b][/quote]
Sounds like Lexington Kentucky. :lol:
BlenderWizard
01-19-2005, 21:36
Furthermore, you cannot prove the Bible's validity with the Bible itself. Here's an example: Go to Blockbuster or some other video store, pick up a movie box and read the back. I'll bet a lot of them say something to the point of "This movie's great." Is that neccessarily the case? No. You cannot use the movie's commentary on itself to prove that it is good. Who would make a movie and put "this sucks" on the back of it? You have to investigate further to prove or disprove the movie's claim. The same basic principle applies here.
BadKarma
01-25-2005, 05:10
Silly Christians!!! :confused:
This has really been entertaining. We Pagans really enjoy watching this kind of fallout.
:samurai:
:sniper:
Swordslinger
01-25-2005, 05:21
Originally posted by BadKarma@Jan 25 2005, 01:10 PM
Silly Christians!!! :confused:
This has really been entertaining. We Pagans really enjoy watching this kind of fallout.
:samurai:
:sniper:
Yeah, I bet you do. But you have not seen any Christians "fall out".
Sorry to dissappoint you. :( No, not really, Im just being cute. :)
Krav, here is another one. I do believe this is what you call trolling.
BadKarma
01-25-2005, 14:49
I would like to apologize to everyone for my trolling remark.
I'm sorry if it offended anyone.
I did not take it as offense, keeps me on my toes to be a better christian. Join in anytime.
-tri :usa:
Swordslinger
01-25-2005, 15:25
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 25 2005, 11:15 PM
I did not take it as offense, keeps me on my toes to be a better christian. Join in anytime.
-tri :usa:
Agreed!! Nuf' said!
BadKarma
01-26-2005, 13:36
Religion (or your belief) is probably one of our most prized personal “possessions”, for lack of a better word. And yes, my belief is as far from most everyone’s on this board as it can be. But I would not even think for a minute to try and convert anyone to believe the same as I do. Your ideas work for you and my ideas work for me. If you or someone else is curious and would like to know more about it, I would gladly answer any questions you might ask.
I respect everyone’s personal choice and would ask the same in return. But if Mel Brooks can poke fun at the Spanish Inquisition, I can take a ribbing.
:D
Originally posted by BadKarma@Jan 26 2005, 04:36 PM
Your ideas work for you and my ideas work for me. If you or someone else is curious and would like to know more about it, I would gladly answer any questions you might ask.
Most religions concern what will happen to us after our earthly body dies, so it's kind of a matter of faith in regards to how well it will work for ya ;) but, ok, I'll bite... which religion ya sellin?
Wait a minute... maybe I shouldn't bite!!! (big time fishing/trolling theme here, hmmmmm) if it looks like it, smells like it, tastes like it, it prolly is and I shouldn't eat it.... im such a sucker... disregard this post, lol :lol:
And, no thanks.
BadKarma
01-26-2005, 14:52
I'm not fishing or trolling for anything. I was just trying to explain myself. I'm sorry if I didnt express myself clearly. :(
Just trying to voice my view.
I'm curious, let us hear your flavor, I won't beat on ya. I'm a God, gun, guts, and ol' glory type of guy, with the christian view flavor. Its what America is about I hope we don't come across like a bad bunch of biker type christians looking for a fight. Welcome brother!!
-tri :usa:
Swordslinger
01-26-2005, 16:31
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 27 2005, 12:05 AM
.... I hope we don't come across like a bad bunch of biker type christians looking for a fight. Welcome brother!!
-tri :usa:
Nope! Welcome BadKarma. No hard feelings. :)
Sword and Tri say it way better than I.
We've only had this new subforum for a couple weeks... and we've taken a few initial beatings ourselves, heh heh.... from some that think we're unrealistic (and prolly stupid) for believeing in God. Anyways, that's my excuse (pretty poor one too).
Lemme introduce myself.... Sometimes I'm a big mouthed, sarcastic, knowitall :lol: (great combination huh?) and sometimes I just keep my mouth shut! :blink: Welcome to the forum BadKarma!
:beer: :beer:
and... sorry for the beating, heh heh... only meant it to be a heavy handed pat on the back ;)
Wow. man...i just got caught up on this thread. how interesting!
A few points to consider:
Any historical document (sorry, even including the Bible) must be carefully examined and critically analyzed. The Bible is a work of living history but it must be noted that we are reading something that was originally written in 2 or 3 different languages (only one is still spoken in anything approaching its orginal form) and most of it was set down between 1500 and 1900 years ago. Alot has changed since then. The modern reader lacks critical areas of context and interpretation. Additionally, it must be accepted that even this most sacred of books has been revised many times since it became canon, and not all of those changes were made with the best of intentions. The King James version is a classic culprit. It is a matter of historical record that James II of England paid to have the Bible re-written to cast a more favorable light on the English. Even without taking this abberation into account, it is very much like we are playing a game of 2,000 year-old "telephone," and half of the players are speaking Hebrew or Aramaic.
Lesson: Be wary of quoting the Bible. Naturally, quoting the Bible to justify the Bible's teachings is a logical paradox.
for example: Im sorry to pick on you Slinger, but in one of your posts a few pages back, you kind-of "double-quoted" yourself by reciting a pair of passages from Luke and Matthew:
Originally posted by Swordslinger
Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
Luke 6:22 "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake."
well, which is it? Both are from the beatitudes. Each is a subtle variation. it should also be noted that this section does not appear in Mark, the earliest of the synoptic gospels (ca. 70-75AD...Mark makes reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which was in 74). These quotes of Jesus are thought to be one of many that arose from the mysterious "Q" document, which is lost to modern scholars.
Matthew and Luke are both from roughly 90AD, and the authors seem to go out of their way to contradict each other on a few fine points. The most notable is the direction that the disciples took after his resurrection....Did they go to Jerusalem, as Luke (24.52) suggests, or is it Galilee as asserted by Matthew (28.16)?
Sadly, we may never know. We may also never know where the original authors drew all of their motivation from. I guess my point is that even with an accurate English translation, (of which none truly exists) we cannot accept, word for word, what is written as accurate. There are too many contradictions. If we take the stand that the words are "open to interpretation," then we must accept all interpretations of them...even those that we do not like.
Fact: Jesus was a Jew...not a Christian (unless you accept Neitzche's maxim on the subject...and i tend to think that he was being facetious.)
Muhammed...also a Jew.
Yup...thats right, both Christianity and Islam are rooted in Judaism. naturally, all three religions are amazingly similar.
Another fact, and ill use the good Old Testament to back it up...God is never quoted anywhere in the Bible (old or new) as saying he is the 'only' God.
most often, Exodus 20 (the Ten Commandments) is used to imply that God is alone in the pantheon. That is simply not the case:
Exodus: 20.2-3(new international version)
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
the King James Version does not disagree, although the wording of verse 2 is a little different:
2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
No other gods before me....
Jonah and Job and Isaiah and Moses all have adventures where they must prove the power of the Judaen god above those of the Sumerians, Assyrians Egyptians etc. Each telling of such a contest merely asserts the supremacy of God over all others. It never denies the existence of other deities..It merely says that they are inferior!
God (or whatever you choose to call your deity) gave me freedom of choice and it is a pitiful squandering of that choice to cripple it behind so-called "faith." "Faith" does not mean that you blindly follow what men and the works of men tell you is true. "Faith" means that you use the gifts that God gave you....heart, mind, experience...freedom of choice to decide what is best.
Anyway, I hope you took the time to read what i have written and i hope that it is helpful in this entertaining theological discussion. I know that i have enjoyed it!
Sorry again: I was reading a bit more in the New International Version and i remembered the restof Exodus 20 had to do with Altars and Idols. How many churches have you been in that did not break these commandments?
If youre going to take the Bible at its word, you must take all the words!
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites this: 'You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.
24 " 'Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, [b] your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, lest your nakedness be exposed on it.'
Altars of dressed stone on steps...with idols of silver and gold...anyone? anyone?
BadKarma
01-27-2005, 05:36
Originally posted by tri70@Jan 26 2005, 04:05 PM
I'm curious, let us hear your flavor, I won't beat on ya. I'm a God, gun, guts, and ol' glory type of guy, with the christian view flavor. Its what America is about I hope we don't come across like a bad bunch of biker type christians looking for a fight. Welcome brother!!
-tri :usa:
I'm a Pagan and the path I follow is called Asatru. That is the Norse pantheology. To be more specific, I'm a Thorsman. Thor is my patron.
I see that tri is from Arkansas, well I'm not that far from you, I'm in the Branson MO area. So you know that this is the middle of the bible belt and I was forced to sample almost all the flavors of church's as I grew up. All of them were full of hipocrits(?). You know the line,"If you give me your money, you'll ............" And they are driveing Caddys while the farmers and folks are driveing 15-20 year old cars and trucks because thats all they can afford. But they do it anyway. I never made sense of it all.
Then my mom started me on geneology and I discovered that we are decended from Scottish Royalty and the Vikings. I started doing more research into my ancestry and discovered much more about their religeon. and there you have it.
Yes, I am a Pagan. Yes, I am a Warrior, just not a beserker (yet) ;).
But if I share a foxhole, its with a friend and thats all that matters (as long as the Rapture doesnt occur right before the battle). :D
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 07:00
Originally posted by BadKarma@Jan 27 2005, 01:36 PM
Then my mom started me on geneology and I discovered that we are decended from Scottish Royalty and the Vikings. I started doing more research into my ancestry and discovered much more about their religion. and there you have it.
Interesting!!! I know you seem to be set in your way. I have traced my ancestory back to the same line. Howdy Cuz! If you want to go back farther than the vikings, a friend of mine, E. Raymond Capt, has done some studies on this very subject. If the name sounds familiar, he some times is interviewed on the History Chanel. He has a book on the Scotish Declaration of Independence, that you would find interesting. Lots of good stuff on Robert The Bruce, and William Wallace. You can find his works HERE (http://www.artisanpublishers.com). You can also find materials that trace your ancetory back even farther than the Vikings. A well writen book comes to mind with the title of, "Stonehenge and Druidism". It traces the traces the practices of druidism back even farther, no NO, what he find is not negative.
There is a lot more to your line than where you left off BadKarma. You need to go back farther. ;) If you dont, your missing out on your Royal Inheritance.
That very interesting, sorry about finding no fellowship in the other churches you went to. I go to a Baptist church in a humble and small community. We wear blue jeans and tee shirts makes everyone more comfortable to talk too. Other Baptist churches that are closer to my house I don't feel comfortable because my new car is 10yrs old and not always washed and no dvd player. I do teach a sunday school class of 7th and 8th grade kids and I don't like to follow the Southern Baptist readers they alway give us. We talk about the war, some politics but mostly being a good nice person because thats what the world sees, we can't build up the body with a big Bible stick. :lol:
-tri :usa:
(1) Bible thumping is not self centered, it is sharing
(2) Judging by responses this is a topic that people care for
(3) As for intollerance; those that dont stand for something, stand for nothing
(4) Bill.
Thank you for participating at least 11 times in a thread that you believe shouldnt take place. Thank you for demonstrating your non-combative style that you preach against soo much. Thank you staying directly on the topic matter, we all know how offended you become when others dont. Thank you for demonstrating your tolerance of others that believe diffrently. You are such a stand-up guy.
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 07:25
Originally posted by JamesP+Jan 27 2005, 07:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JamesP @ Jan 27 2005, 07:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
for example: Im sorry to pick on you Slinger, but in one of your posts a few pages back, you kind-of "double-quoted" yourself by reciting a pair of passages from Luke and Matthew:
<!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger
Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
Luke 6:22 "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake."
well, which is it? [/b][/quote]
JameP,
First off, dont worry about picking on me, I can take it, AND I am used to it. :) The verses you quoted from me say pretty much the exact same thing. It is an account from TWO different people. Two wittnesses, as was/IS required by God's law. It is kind of like the game you play as kids, the story changes slightly as its is told on and on. But to look at the way The Word of God flows, and is written over centuries apart, by different people, it is amazing how well it flows together into ONE central meaning/message. Just astounding!! I have no problem with that, and yes, I do study the original languages for the words and their meanings.
I am not of what the world accepts as "judeo" Christian, and many of the argument that are used againt judeochristian wont work on me, as I do not see things as they do on certain matters. I do believe they (some) have the Important things figured out and they will learn the rest when God is ready. For instant:
I believe tha God created the heavens and the earth. I do not believe that the world is only 6000 yrs old. Nor do I think that the Word teaches it in the original languages. Could an " enemy hath done this"?
I do not believe that all "men" come from Adam. Nor do I think the Word teaches it. But if you go word for word from the english translations without studying the original language, then I could see why one would believe that. Could an " enemy hath done this"?
I dont not believe the Word of God teaches a Planet covering Flood, and every human today "evolved" from Noah's three sons. But if one were to read the King James verbatem, woth out studying the original language...well....Could an " enemy hath done this"?
You said Islam had is roots in judaism, not so. The decendants of Ismael are whom you are referring to. As far as "jews", that word is not mentioned until 2 King's 16:6. What you are referring to is that Islam has its roots back to the Hebrew religion. The ten Northern tribes (House of Israel) broke away from the 2 southern tribes of Judah, and Benjamin (House of Judah) Both went into captivity, one to Assyrian, and one to Babylon. The Assyrian captivity took the most of the House of Judah with it, and they were scattered, just a God said they would be. The word "jew" has several meanings, one is "of the tribe of Judah, of the area of Judea, of the religion of judaism" Christ was of the tribe of Judah, of Israelite heritage, and from Galilee. But did he refute the religion of judaism, known as the "Tradition of the Elder's" as was brought out of Babylon as a replacment for God's true comands given earlier on in thier history.
Christ said he, "came only unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Where were these "lost sheep"?.......
Those are some examples: You see the usual arguments will not work with me. :)
Good post JamesP. :)
Swordslinger,
You got to admit, you are a little off the beaten trak. I guess it doesnt surprise you that there are those find you to be a little nutty. Your beliefs remind me of a book I read once entitled" Sargon The Magnificient" by Sydney Bristowe. The book is a take-off of the old Babylonian inscriptions. It suggests and gives some evidence of pre-adamites and answeres a whole lot unanswered questions. They were black and this is where cain went as he joined other peoples. It also explains the the flood not covering the whole earth.
Its a good read if you want to enhance you beliefs, Or if your just curious as to where in the world do these people come from!!
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 08:41
Originally posted by tinman@Jan 27 2005, 04:20 PM
Swordslinger,
You got to admit, you are a little off the beaten trak. I guess it doesnt surprise you that there are those find you to be a little nutty. Your beliefs remind me of a book I read once entitled" Sargon The Magnificient" by Sydney Bristowe. The book is a take-off of the old Babylonian inscriptions. It suggests and gives some evidence of pre-adamites and answeres a whole lot unanswered questions. They were black and this is where cain went as he joined other peoples. It also explains the the flood not covering the whole earth.
Its a good read if you want to enhance you beliefs, Or if your just curious as to where in the world do these people come from!!
I recognize that name!! And upon your recomendation, I will try to get a hold of that and read it. Thanks Tinman!!
Yeah, I know Im off the accepted path of "judeo"Christiandom, but thats ok. :) We are to be as the Bereans who were more noble than those of the Theselonians. In that the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what they were being taught was so. I think Christ wants us to search to find out what they are teaching is so. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings to search it out.
The sad thing is, most people fall for alot of the lies, and when they see the physical evidence that refutes a certain teaching that comes from a "church", they dismiss Christianity alltogether. It s sad!!! :( We have enemies in the pulpits today, false prophets for profit. ie Baal Priests. Some are just misled, but I believe that our enemy has long since infiltrated the so called "church" a led many sheep to the slaughter. :(
Thanks Brother!! I will try to find that.
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 09:03
Tinman, I would have edited this into the other post, if we were responsible enough to be "blessed" with an edit buttom that lasted longer than 15minutes, but since we are not, I had to make another post.
As far as being thought of as nutty, hey, when you believe that most of the world is nuts, then when they call you nutty, its a compliment. :lol: Infact most of the names that I get called dont hurt at all. :lol:
I think I know where I saw that book....Im gonna find it. ;)
your long exposition notwithstanding, i was not trying to prove you wrong or attack you at all. I merely asked that you read carefully. You seem awfully ready to jump and defend your faith when no "enemy" exists, merely scholarly curiosity.
I never made any inference to the flood covering the whole earth, or the earth itself being a mere 6000 years old. Those "beliefs" are patently ridiculous, and i would not argue them even if they were presented.
neither the writer of Matthew, nor the writer of Luke was present at the sermon on the mount, where the beatitudes were spoken. As such, they cannot be "witnesses" in the Hebrew manner you suggest. Both of these works were first recorded ca 90-100AD, almost 3 generations after the fact. It is far more likely that they are both quoting "Q," which is why the wording is so similar. The nature of the "Q" document is very mysterious, and there is no extant copy. However, you can find references to in in Matthew, Luke and a couple of the apocryphal gospels, like Thomas.
I do not doubt that Jesus spoke these words, or words very similar...however, the fact that Mark (ca 70ad) makes no reference to these quotes is interesting. of course it could simply be because mark wasnt interested so much in the words as the actions of Jesus.
An important issue to note with the synoptic gospels in general is the subtle differences in interpretation in the space of only 20-30 years. I do not doubt that the men who wrote or copied the words of Mark did so with the best of intentions. However...if these differences are evident after only one generation, imagine what must have changed between Mark and the fall of Rome in 475AD (400 years, or the time between the first settlers in America to the present day) or through the Dark Ages to the time of Charlemange in ca. 800AD?
It is a fact, (and since you quoted Isaiah earlier) that the modern, Hebrew version of Isaiah has significant departures from one found in the scrolls from Qumran (the Dead Sea Scrolls).
The Essenes (a radical, ascetic group Rabbis) buried every document they could in sealed jars in caves near their 'hideout.' I use hideout, although 'monestary' is probably more appropriate, even though it is a christian term. The Essenes at Qumran were doing what religious men have always done...they were preserving and copying writings for the next generation. They buried everything, from legal documents, to scripture to grocery lists. It should be noted that they did not bury any documents of Christian origin. That would tend to argue that they did not have them on hand. That is interesting, because the Essenes hid all of their documents in 72-74AD as the Roman legions of Titus advanced through the area. That would be 40 years, give or take, after the death of Jesus.
As to Islam: You have given a passable account of the history of the 12 tribes...when do you suppose Islam first appeared? In fact, it is closer to 500AD, as any reader of even the first few pages of the Koran would know. As such, the Koran was written after the meetings of Constantine at Milan (ca 313) where the books of the Bible were made "canon." As a result, there would obviously be no mention of islam in the Christian works, and certainly not in the Hebrew books, which were fixed and remained canon after 90AD
Muhammed even purports to be continuing the tradition of Judaism in the Koran.
As for the "muslim" terrorists, they are no more "muslim" than the KKK is "christain." As a matter of fact, if any of these screwballs had any authority at all amongst the Muslims, then having any one of them call a 'Jihad' against America or Americans should have buried us under a flood of holy warriors...this did not happen. In fact, it is still the actions of a tiny minority of fanatics that we face today.
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 09:23
Originally posted by JamesP@Jan 27 2005, 05:20 PM
your long exposition notwithstanding, i was not trying to prove you wrong or attack you at all.
I just started reading your post, and I want to let you know I did not take it that way. :)
Swordslinger
01-27-2005, 09:32
Originally posted by JamesP@Jan 27 2005, 05:20 PM
As to Islam: You have given a passable account of the history of the 12 tribes...when do you suppose Islam first appeared? In fact, it is closer to 500AD, as any reader of even the first few pages of the Koran would know.
I know when the begining of Isam was, I was just refuting your incorrect use of the term "jew" in relation to the heritage of Isam. If you care to search it out, you will find where those "lost tribes" ended up. But if your satisfied with throwing out the teachings of Christ, and the scriptures because of the falible and intentional misleading of the "churches" down through the years, then... well... you have made up your mind. There is no point in arguing this, as we are clearly coming from different levels of understanding. :)
I did not mean to seem combative. :)
...or passive-agressive either, i take it ;) Once again, you are awful quick on the draw, Mcgraw :2guns: :)
I would say there has been some persecution in your past...Persecution is nothing new to Christians. The Romans thought they were cannibals!
The path that you take with your sermons here, however, may have something to do with it. for example: This one true way... This does not make sense. If there was only one way, then why bother with choice? isnt this alot like Henry Ford saying, "You can have a Model-T in any color, so long as its black."
The goal here is to live an enlightened and happy life...but since happiness is determined on the personal level, the path to that happiness must be personal as well. I am not going to be truly happy if I am following a path prescribed by someone else. And if i make any mistakes on the way, well, ill settle up with God when I see him.
I'm hardly throwing out the teachings of Christ. there are alot of really good, really profound things to be learned in the Bible...The beatitudes are a great example. What i am counseling is critical thinking. I believe that it is impossible to extract the full meaning of the Bible without a comprehensive historical context in which to view it. However, i do refute any statement or implication that the words in this book are anything more than the interpretations divinity by men. To think otherwise ignores the imperfection inherent in mankind. You cannot expect every person who wrote down or copied the thoughts and teachings of Jesus in the last 1900 years to have been a perfect translator or even a neccessarily good person. many of them? sure! All of them? No way.
As for the term, "Jew," i was merely using it for modern correlative purposes. I never intended to enter into any geneological discussion in regards to Muhammed and his descent from the tribes of Israel, merely to poihnt out that he was himself of "jewish" descent (a Rabbi? I have heard this said before....)
BadKarma
01-27-2005, 11:08
Originally posted by Swordslinger@Jan 27 2005, 07:00 AM
Interesting!!! I know you seem to be set in your way. I have traced my ancestory back to the same line. Howdy Cuz! If you want to go back farther than the vikings, a friend of mine, E. Raymond Capt, has done some studies on this very subject. If the name sounds familiar, he some times is interviewed on the History Chanel. He has a book on the Scotish Declaration of Independence, that you would find interesting. Lots of good stuff on Robert The Bruce, and William Wallace. You can find his works HERE (http://www.artisanpublishers.com). You can also find materials that trace your ancetory back even farther than the Vikings. A well writen book comes to mind with the title of, "Stonehenge and Druidism". It traces the traces the practices of druidism back even farther, no NO, what he find is not negative.
There is a lot more to your line than where you left off BadKarma. You need to go back farther. ;) If you dont, your missing out on your Royal Inheritance.
HOWDY back at ya CUZ!!! :D
Your right SS, I am very set in my ways. But those books look like very interesting reading and I will order them. I have always been very interested in Stonehenge, not necessarily from a religeous point, but from a curiousity point.
To trace my true line I will have to travel to Edinburgh and wade through their archives. And I look forward to the day I can stand on the same ground that my forefathers did.
Thanks for the warm reception guys. If you are evern in need of a 6'4" Viking warrior, you can count on me, Just point me in the right direction. :2guns:
P.S.- Yes, I do wear a kilt on some occasions. :blink:
darjeeling
01-27-2005, 19:19
Originally posted by JamesP@Jan 27 2005, 09:20 AM
As for the "muslim" terrorists, they are no more "muslim" than the KKK is "christain." As a matter of fact, if any of these screwballs had any authority at all amongst the Muslims, then having any one of them call a 'Jihad' against America or Americans should have buried us under a flood of holy warriors...this did not happen. In fact, it is still the actions of a tiny minority of fanatics that we face today.
However true this may be, it is all but undisputable that the strong alliegance to dogmatism that islam has combined with its set in intolerance of other creeds and hierarchical holiness of men makes terrorism and abuses of religious power much easier than in other faiths. According to the orthodoxy, a moderate muslim is not a muslim but a heretic--thats frightening.
...it is all but undisputable that the strong alliegance to dogmatism...
I dispute your claim. For one, it is overly dogmatic. ;)
So, when Christians do it, its a Crusade or an Inquisition and when Muslims do it, its 'terrorism.' gotcha. In any case, the US has routinely and closely allied itself with governments as well as clandestine organizations devoted to so-called "terror" tactics.
Ill be happy to list them, and their atrocities. Plus, the juicy ones are all 20th century, so none of that "ancient history" crap.
The funny thing is, the unwarranted attacks upon non-christian civilians during both of these periods were supported by the highest levels of their respective governments. Al-Queda, Hamas and the PLO have never gained the total support of any legitimate government, despite the fact that all three exist in intensely anti-American areas. In other words, America is bad, but not bad enough to let those guys take over.
Seriously, it would be like the US giving military authority to abortion clinic bombers.
darjeeling
01-28-2005, 08:52
True, islam doesn't have a monopoly on terror. I don't condone the inquisition or the crusades, although the crusades were not terrorism, but poorly thought out pillage and plunder warfare, well within the standards of its day. The inquisition was terrorism, and there are hundreds of other examples that were perpetrated by christians and condoned or not denounced by the church. But now the great majority of terror is perpetrated by those who fall under the umbrella of Islam.
Yes, outright govn't support is not given by the states that harbour Al-Queda, Hamas, and the PLO, but a blind eye is turned while the actions are publicly denounced. But any religion that explicitly states the inferiority of those outside the faith, and states that judgement day will come with the death and damnation of all infidels is giving all but explicit support of terrorism. Wether it is Whabisim or Arayan 'christianity', they all are the same in the that respect.
I don't deny any of your comments, but in all fairness, saying that islamicist terror isn't as bad as it seems because our Christian ancestors did things in a similar vein under the umbrella of Christiandom is a weak argument at best. They are both reprehensible, but one is history and the other is contemporary and is not going to leave anytime soon.
Ok, I KNOW I'll regret this later but I just have to...
So what about Jewish people?
I have sorta been figuring that we'll (as usual) be in the cross hairs of the
evangelical right and Christian fundamentalist movements as they "inform" us
that Jesus is the only way. Fine, what else is new?
But then I hear that the bible specifically states that before the second coming
all the Jews must return to Israel. Ha! It's like Ghostbusters with the gate keeper
and key master! Before we can open a portal to Zuul, they must come together.
Anywho, so what say all the preachers? Do Jews enjoy some kind of "hands off"
status or are we fair game? If the bible DOES in fact say that the Jews must
return to Israel as a prerequisite to judgement day, then something doesn't
add up with the "everyone must be christian" bit.
-Stooxie
Heeeeeeeeee's baaaaaaaaaack!!
Last Gunslinger
02-23-2005, 13:09
Originally posted by darjeeling@Jan 28 2005, 08:52 AM
True, islam doesn't have a monopoly on terror. I don't condone the inquisition or the crusades, although the crusades were not terrorism, but poorly thought out pillage and plunder warfare, well within the standards of its day. The inquisition was terrorism, and there are hundreds of other examples that were perpetrated by christians and condoned or not denounced by the church. But now the great majority of terror is perpetrated by those who fall under the umbrella of Islam.
Yes, outright govn't support is not given by the states that harbour Al-Queda, Hamas, and the PLO, but a blind eye is turned while the actions are publicly denounced. But any religion that explicitly states the inferiority of those outside the faith, and states that judgement day will come with the death and damnation of all infidels is giving all but explicit support of terrorism. Wether it is Whabisim or Arayan 'christianity', they all are the same in the that respect.
I don't deny any of your comments, but in all fairness, saying that islamicist terror isn't as bad as it seems because our Christian ancestors did things in a similar vein under the umbrella of Christiandom is a weak argument at best. They are both reprehensible, but one is history and the other is contemporary and is not going to leave anytime soon.
The last terrorist to attack my home state of Alabama was not a Islamist fanatic, but a Christian fanatic. He killed in praise of Almighty God of the Bible, not of Allah. And while the religious right in this country doesn't give outright support of him, some people from that part of the political spectrum certainly do, because they helped him hide when he fled Bin Laden style to the NC mountains to shelter amongst religious nuts like himself.
Which brings up another point. IMO, if you don't support Eric Rudloph's religiously motivated terrorist attacks, and yet you honestly feel that a million "babies" a year are murdered by abortion, you are no better than the Germans who smelled Dachau and didn't do anything about it. Worse really, cause they had no means to stop Dachau, and you as Americans do have said means. So if you think abortion is murder because your god said he knew Jeremiah in the womb, then you must be sympatheic to Eric Rudolph, or you are a hypocrite. And if you think his attack was justified, then you can't pretend that the almighty god of the bible doesn't drink blood, but allah does.
Also, if you think his attacks on gay bars was unjustified, then you haven't read Judges, which commands god of the bible's people to kill men who lay with other men. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, God of the Bible commanded his followers to kill homosexuals, adulterous women, children who cursed their parents, and people who work on the Sabbath, amongst other more particular death sentences, like the one he handed down on the Canaanite men, women, children, cattle, dogs, and fowl. Interestingly, when the Israelites didn't kill ALL the canaanites (but observed Thou Shall Not Kill) and burn the houses, bury the ashes, etc., god of the bible punished them with the same sentence he gave them for breaking one of the Ten Commandments (golden calf). IF your argument is that when the New Covenant was made, the old homo-killing law was no longer in effect, you might have a point (but Rudolph would be left holding a smelly bag). If your argument is that God of the Bible doesn't tell people to kill people, you are sadly mistaken, because he does just that, several times.
And the difference here is that the god of Ishmael is a false god, and the God of Isaac and Abraham is the one true God.
swill269
02-23-2005, 15:35
:o
heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere we go again. :lol:
:cool:
swill269
02-23-2005, 15:47
:o
what, what?
:cool:
darjeeling
02-23-2005, 15:57
Last Gunslinger- Well hold on there fella! I don't want you to leap to logical fallicies so quickly :huh: . You are making quite the false dilemma argument here.
IMO, if you don't support Eric Rudloph's religiously motivated terrorist attacks, and yet you honestly feel that a million "babies" a year are murdered by abortion, you are no better than the Germans who smelled Dachau and didn't do anything about it. Worse really, cause they had no means to stop Dachau, and you as Americans do have said means. So if you think abortion is murder because your god said he knew Jeremiah in the womb, then you must be sympatheic to Eric Rudolph, or you are a hypocrite. And if you think his attack was justified, then you can't pretend that the almighty god of the bible doesn't drink blood, but allah does.
Things are never that black or white. Even if I know someone like Rudloph, I really have no means to prevent him of carrying out his divine judgement short of 'preemptive murder'. Same with the citizens around Dachau. Either they kill the SS detatchment that sets up the camp 'preemtively', and commit murder (more like suicide with murderous intent), or try to seek justice and get executed. Any Christian should and must know that the ends don't justify the means. If I dislike abortion, murdering abortion doctors and women who have had the procedure is not condonable within christianity. Within Judeo-Christian Religion, murder is
NEVER justifiable The commandment says "Thou shalt not COMMIT MURDER", not "Thou shalt not KILL" (king james was poorly translated).
Eric may of beleived that he killed in Gods name and according to his divine plan, but he could not of, because by justifying murder through religion, he found a new god and worshiped him in twisted ways that the Christian God couldn't accept. He became a blasphemer, a heretic and a non-christian as soon as he justified murder through God and Christ.
If your argument is that God of the Bible doesn't tell people to kill people, you are sadly mistaken, because he does just that, several times.
No, my argument isn't that he doesn't tell people to kill other people. He does, in the name of justice and self defense, and war. But, you missed the point here. Mr. Rudloph commited murder-- an act God neither permits nor asks for. I must take back my comment relating Christian and Islamicist terrorists. Christian terrorists are Apostate Christians, whereas Islamicist terrorists are still Muslims. They're acts are just as evil, but Islam condones it more than Christianity.
Stooxie-- The fundamentalists are no-ones friend. They are not really christians but name christians only (mostly), pushing fervently a version of Christianity that lacks the esssential charecteristics of Christianity. Any Christian should know that his faith has no bearing on anyone elses. In other words, no mans faith or revelations can proove his faith to be true. A true christian will respect Jews and their own chosen path, and will not push for conversion. This is the true meaning of Agnosticism, that faith cannot be prooved, and arguments on this ground (the only ones that can be made) are fallacious. Christianity is Agnostic, and to try for conversion, you sacrifice this essential element of the religion and loose a part of your religion.
*steps off pulpit*
:cool: :beer: :beer: :confused:
Originally posted by darjeeling@Feb 23 2005, 03:57 PM
Stooxie-- The fundamentalists are no-ones friend. They are not really christians but name christians only (mostly), pushing fervently a version of Christianity that lacks the esssential charecteristics of Christianity. Any Christian should know that his faith has no bearing on anyone elses. In other words, no mans faith or revelations can proove his faith to be true. A true christian will respect Jews and their own chosen path, and will not push for conversion. This is the true meaning of Agnosticism, that faith cannot be prooved, and arguments on this ground (the only ones that can be made) are fallacious. Christianity is Agnostic, and to try for conversion, you sacrifice this essential element of the religion and loose a part of your religion.
Cool! :beer:
Actually, Christians are not really agnostics... it's an interesting argument, Dar, but I'm not so sure it's accurate. Agnosticism is to not know if there is a God or not. And a true Christian's faith allows him to know whole heartedly without so called proof.
Now, it is nice that we have more than faith alone to know that our God exists. It is a matter of all great and small evidences of God's handywork, plan, and love that added together provide us with proof to back up our faith. This proof is very difficult to see until one accepts the Lord as their God and Christ as their savior. The path to God in heaven is now through Christ, someone who is actually the physical manifestation of God, was crucified by the world and for the world, and then actually rose from the dead and accended back to heaven! Wrap your head around that a minute, cuz it actually happened! Once one does accept this, and dilligently seeks Him, the third part of the God trinity, the Holy Spirit, actually opens man's eyes to see the proof -- the forest despite the trees. This is what Christians such as George Bush speak of. It's just very hard to understand until you accept and seek Him. God gives everyone plenty of opportunity to seek Him. Anytime one wonders if God is reality, that is their chance to find the answer. If we reject Him, Christ will deny us before His Father. If we seek Him, He will show us the way. If we accept Him, we will be saved. If we are saved, His Holy Spirit shows us answers we could have never found on our own. We are spiritual beings. All this hocus pocus about spirits and talking to spirits... is based in reality! It really is incredible what the human mind is capable of. It is what sets us apart from the animals. Enoch, walked and talked with God, and he did not die! He was shown the mysteries of Heaven and space, and put back on earth to tell his story before he was taken up into heaven! So did the MAN Jesus Christ walk and talk with His Father and then accend into Heaven. So will His followers on judgement day!
Now, If you're still with me here, regarding all this talk of killing in the name of our gods:
Jesus changed the plan of salvation, which subsequently did away with much Old Testament practice. Christ did not command us to kill the followers of false gods, as Islam teaches people to do. Christ taught us that ABOVE ALL ELSE we must love the Lord our God, and love our neighbor. Christ said that the world will only truley know we are His disciples by the way we love one another.
darjeeling
02-23-2005, 17:28
Actually, Christians are not really agnostics... it's an interesting argument, Dar, but I'm not so sure it's accurate. Agnosticism is to not know if there is a God or not. And a true Christian's faith allows him to know whole heartedly without so called proof.
Yes, christians are not agnostic. But, christianity is an Agnostic religon. Confusing eh? Agnosticism in this sence is a reaction to the Gnostic sect of the 2nd century AD that beleived that revelation was evidence of God and was transferable; i.e. If John has revelation and with that insight of god, Bob must take Johns revelation to be explicit proof of God. Gnosticism was considered a heresy after much great debate in the early church. Hence, christianity is Agnostic in the sence of what it means to be gnostic. By being Agnostic, it means you can know that God exists as well as know there is no 'proof'. Agnosticism allows faith to exist. Otherwise, it would be called logic, and religion a science.
Sorry, there are many definitions for agnosticism, and I thought I was being more explicit as to which one I was refering too.
Edit: Agnosticism stems from greek a- gnosis, where gnosis is the basic beleif of the Gnostic Heresy--that revelation is transferrable among others. Agnosticism is a central part of christian dogma. Its only fitting that those who cannot beleive in any religion because of lack of proof call themselves agnostic--their religion is completely this beleif, that the realm and reality of god is far beyond what man will ever comprehend or even be aware of, and that faith (other than in this christian derived concept) is arrogant and presumptive.
"Agnosticism is a central part of christian dogma. Its only fitting that those who cannot beleive in any religion because of lack of proof call themselves agnostic--their religion is completely this beleif, that the realm and reality of god is far beyond what man will ever comprehend or even be aware of, and that faith (other than in this christian derived concept) is arrogant and presumptive."
This is where many fail to understand what I said. When many say that "the realm and reality of god is far beyond what man will ever comprehend or even be aware of" they fail to realize that this is only the case for the one who refuses to first accept the truth and believe it in faith. Once the truth is dilligently sought after without the attitude of a debunker, who seeks to discredit before completely reviewing evidence, then shall the truth of God's existence be revealed as impirical evidence. You see, what really happens here is that in first setting out in one's heart to discredit God, the truth will be lost to him. On the other hand, when one first decides in their heart to prove God is real, (yes this is a matter of faith, or better yet, it is a matter of humility instead of arrogence), only then will IMPERICAL PROOF be understood to him (not just faith but "seeing is believing").
You see, God said that his spirit will not always strive with man, and that those who refuse to find Him will be sent strong delusion so that they will believe a lie. These are not my words, they are God's. Yet, I believe them because I see it happening all around me every day. It is not I who is arrogent and presumtive. Arrogent and presumptive is the one who sets out in his heart to deny the existence of God, refusing to believe that there is One much greater than any man, and One much greater than himself -- refusing to believe before giving any evidence a fair and unbiased review, refusing because of the arrogence in his heart.
I see this happening. I KNOW that many unbelievers who frequent this subforum to argue or convert we Christians back to atheism or agnosticism do NOT review the evidence presented to them! They DO NOT give the evidence a fair and unbiased review. I presented very thought provoking arguments for empirical proof to this subforum and NOT ONE WOULD LISTEN!!!!!! So, here it is again:
http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.p...showtopic=13620 (http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13620)
Will one person drop their ego a moment and give these arguments a fair review?Before anyone attempts to tell us what is real and what is not, what we are and what we are not, who God and Christ are and are not, listen to the empirical arguments for the PROOF of God and His plan through Christ, abandon arrogence, try humility, seek God with a pure heart and you might just learn that this IS NOT a world with no proof of God. This is not a world that requires a faith defined as agnosticism. This is not a world where the intelligence of man is the sum total of his accomplishment! That is where arrogence begins, agnosticism is born, and truth is lost!
darjeeling
02-24-2005, 08:37
Tunug-- I understand that you would have problems with that statement. That quote refers to what is for agnostics beleive, not christians. I am not arguing that christianitys faith only in that concept, but by the actual meaning of the word faith, agnosticism (in the meaning of rejection of gnosticism) is requred. The agnostic faith only beleives gnosticism is invalid, and argues from here that all religion is too logically unsupportable to beleive in. This beleives is missing the point of agnosticism. Its supposed be a tool to get faith, not one to say that it is impossible.
Originally posted by darjeeling@Feb 24 2005, 08:37 AM
Tunug-- I understand that you would have problems with that statement. That quote refers to what is for agnostics beleive, not christians. I am not arguing that christianitys faith only in that concept, but by the actual meaning of the word faith, agnosticism (in the meaning of rejection of gnosticism) is requred. The agnostic faith only beleives gnosticism is invalid, and argues from here that all religion is too logically unsupportable to beleive in. This beleives is missing the point of agnosticism. Its supposed be a tool to get faith, not one to say that it is impossible.
Not really sure where you came up with the definition of agnostic.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...ary&va=agnostic (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=agnostic)
Just because you put "a" in front of Gnostic doesn't mean that it takes on the definition you mention.
All "agnostic" means is:
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
So, please give us the Cliff's Notes list of empirical evidence you claim are in the videos, Tunug. I mean, you just tell us we should seek God and that's that. I'm not about to spend hours watching videos in the hopes that maybe there is modern empirical evidence proving the existence of God.
You do know what emprical evidence is, right? Evidence that I can see but cannot scientifically or mathematically deduce. Example: Apple trees grow up where apples have fallen. That's emprical evidence that there must be seeds in Apples. It's also empirical evidence that supports a claim that "apple trees grow from the roots of older apple trees", because, gosh darn it, apples fall in the same place that the roots are growing (under the tree!).
You have to bring in science (cutting open an apple and finding a seed, planting it in a controlled environment where there are not apple roots, etc.) to have a scientific proof.
Let's take that a step further. There is emprical evidence that the sun rotates around the Earth. You see it happen every day. Galileo was tried by the Catholic Church for heresy because he foolishly stated that the Earth actually revolves around the Sun.
Empirical evidence doesn't prove anything. It can, however, lead you to a possible cause, yet if there are simple solutions that also lead to the empirical evidence, you haven't proven ANYTHING.
Bottom line, give us some of the details of the "empirical evidence". Everything I've seen and heard from "believers" is not proof, so why should I listen to hours of religious BS to find out if the nuggets of evidence you claim exist are the same old tired nonsense I've heard before?
Bill,
Let's consider the existance and evidence of God from a design viewpoint.
This web site does not exist without an intelligent design; it doesn't just happen without a designer. OK, look at anything in nature and see the complexity. The only logical explanation is a creator.
Swordslinger
02-24-2005, 11:30
Originally posted by Bill@Feb 24 2005, 05:30 PM
Bottom line, give us some of the details of the "empirical evidence". Everything I've seen and heard from "believers" is not proof, so why should I listen to hours of religious BS to find out if the nuggets of evidence you claim exist are the same old tired nonsense I've heard before?
Like I said before, "the most devisive one of the bunch". Maybe your not meant to hear and understand, Bill.
Mark 4:
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Originally posted by Bill@Feb 24 2005, 12:30 PM
So, please give us the Cliff's Notes list of empirical evidence you claim are in the videos, Tunug. I mean, you just tell us we should seek God and that's that. I'm not about to spend hours watching videos in the hopes that maybe there is modern empirical evidence proving the existence of God.
You do know what emprical evidence is, right? Evidence that I can see but cannot scientifically or mathematically deduce. Example: Apple trees grow up where apples have fallen. That's emprical evidence that there must be seeds in Apples. It's also empirical evidence that supports a claim that "apple trees grow from the roots of older apple trees", because, gosh darn it, apples fall in the same place that the roots are growing (under the tree!).
You have to bring in science (cutting open an apple and finding a seed, planting it in a controlled environment where there are not apple roots, etc.) to have a scientific proof.
Let's take that a step further. There is emprical evidence that the sun rotates around the Earth. You see it happen every day. Galileo was tried by the Catholic Church for heresy because he foolishly stated that the Earth actually revolves around the Sun.
Empirical evidence doesn't prove anything. It can, however, lead you to a possible cause, yet if there are simple solutions that also lead to the empirical evidence, you haven't proven ANYTHING.
Bottom line, give us some of the details of the "empirical evidence". Everything I've seen and heard from "believers" is not proof, so why should I listen to hours of religious BS to find out if the nuggets of evidence you claim exist are the same old tired nonsense I've heard before?
ok let me say this another way.... there is evidence that can both be seen and deduced logically. how about that? Furthermore, the links I gave are to audio files not video files. and I dont do cliff notes for people who could care less. that would be even more of a waste of time as my response here. The arguments in those audio files are already quite clear and condensed, and done very well. If someone wants to take the time to check them out, they will. and if everybody thinks they are not worth the time, then they wont be listened to. Its not my responsibility to spoon feed people. at some point they have to take some initiative and review the evidence for themselves. Then, they can comment on it!
And you know what? you dont have to listen to hours of religious bs. reject it if you want. but dont open up a religious forum and then come in and tell us that what we talk about is bs! Im not going to go very far in arguing logical and tangible proof to anyone if they are not willing to listen to the argument. That is why I offered those audio files. Unless someone reviews those as I have many times, then I will not regard their side of "that" argument as credible. and yes, I know what empirical evidence is.
Many people have set out to prove God is not real. And, in fairly reviewing all evidence they can possibly find, many have deduced in the end that God is in fact real. The antarctic is the land surrounding the south pole. Most people believe this, yet they have never been there. Regardless whether people believe it is real or it isn't, it will continue to exist at the south pole. If someone believes that the antarctic does not exist, it is because they have presumed this against all contrary evidence, or they have not taken the time to find out for themselves, or both. God is the same way, except it is not difficult to see like it is to see the antarctic by boat or plane.
Furthermore, since people easily believe in such things as the antarctic, or black holes, or bosons, or zero point energy, etc... but do not ever see them, yet will not believe in God, which man has always believed in from the beginning of history, then I deduce it is because man is inherantly drawn away from God by a power who seeks to destroy God (satan). And by God it is working in these last days, but thank God, not for much longer!
darjeeling
02-24-2005, 17:12
Originally posted by Bill@Feb 24 2005, 08:56 AM
[Not really sure where you came up with the definition of agnostic.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...ary&va=agnostic (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=agnostic)
Just because you put "a" in front of Gnostic doesn't mean that it takes on the definition you mention.
All "agnostic" means is:
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
Bill, this word comes from religious studies. That definition I used is jargon nowadays, and rather archaic. Its the original root of the word agnostic, and it has evolved over 1800 years. It went out of common use some hundred years ago, but unfortunately, no acceptable word has taken its place. It can only be represented by a.) a word that in general use deviated from the meaning desired for this definition, or b.) a lengthy discussion of the gnostic heresy. The latter is tedious, and the former is most likely not understood.
Tunung, Sword: You guys are missing the point of faith here. The idea of faith is not that you can prove it, but that you can't prove it or even show evedence either way and still beleive. That is the whole point of why the church rejects gnosticism, and is 'agnostic' (sorry), because faith in God is important, and not proof of God. If it was the other way around, Christianity would be taught by scientists, recreating the proof that was discovered, and using logic, theory, postulation and the scientific process to show the existance of God.
I know the view from the other side of the fence. I was not given a religious rasing, so I had to struggle and come to terms with this on my own. This was not helped by my predisposition to the logical and demonstrable, as faith by its very nature is outside the realm of logic. Put another way, true faith is niether illogical or logical, because logic cant apply to places where no empirical evidence exists. I don't know how many people have tried the 'proof of god' argument on me, and I have a little secret to tell about it. It doesent work!! To the converted, it works because they already accept that God exists. But to the non-beleiver, It makes no effect other than to push them further away from what is being 'proven'.
If you were given faulty logic as irrefutable proof that Mount Everest is completely composed of decomposed Martian expatriats, you would not only disbleive the proof, but have a beleif that this theory is untennable because the best available proof is quackery. The same applies to the God proof. The only way to make a convert is through showing them the Bible, letting them struggle with the concepts of faith, love, grace and salvation (but expecially faith, all the others can come later), letting them know that faith is not prooveable and even beyond the analytic part of human intellegence, and letting them come to their own conclusion. This is not sure fire. But it's the only way to inspire faith.
Swordslinger
02-24-2005, 18:25
Originally posted by darjeeling@Feb 25 2005, 01:12 AM
Tunung, Sword: You guys are missing the point of faith here.
I certainly dont want to argue, but I am not missing the point at all. I understand exactly what your saying.
Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Belief on the other hand, is something you CAN see. Once you seen the Hand of God move in your life, and seen the power therof, then it is belief. There are many "proofs". I'm not even going to argue the existance of God to those with no faith. Without faith, the deeper things will not be uderstood. Not everyone is His, and not everyone will become one of His. Thats just the way it is. Thats why they were told to dust their feet off, and hit the bricks, rather than stand around trying to convert those that Christ, The Master described in Mark 4:11-12 and in John 8:44.
darjeeling
02-24-2005, 18:35
I didn't say that in regards to my comment, but on faith. If your faith rests on proof, it is not faith. I'm not questioning your faith (I'm damn sure you've got that in spades ;) ), but just be careful there. Its all too easy to stray with seemingly innocious proofs. I've seen it happen in my short life. I was probably too harsh there, but I meant nothing critical with that comment.
Swordslinger
02-24-2005, 18:38
Originally posted by darjeeling@Feb 25 2005, 02:35 AM
I didn't say that in regards to my comment, but on faith. If your faith rests on proof, it is not faith. I'm not questioning your faith (I'm damn sure you've got that in spades ;) ), but just be careful there. Its all too easy to stray with seemingly innocious proofs. I've seen it happen in my short life. I was probably too harsh there, but I meant nothing critical with that comment.
And I did not take that as being critical at all, and did not mean to sound that way. :)
darjeeling
02-24-2005, 19:09
I love it when there are no misunderstanding! And I like your first response too. Good passage too. I really need to dust off my bible, but having somewhere around 2-4 hours of multivariable calculus homework kinda prevents me from having a life.
I know what ya mean about calc homework, Im an engineering student, and I love math. here's some cool links:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/
http://www.mathpages.com/home/inumber.htm
http://www.poetrymagic.co.uk/advanced/trut...athematics.html (http://www.poetrymagic.co.uk/advanced/truthinmathematics.html)
http://www.zpenergy.com/
http://www.returnofthenephilim.com/
I even find time to read the Bible and books on biblical archeology as well as shoot my mini14!
Christianity just doesnt fit into a neat little box with any sort of label ;)
Pretty soon, possibly in my lifetime, the whole world will find this out whether they want to or not.
Last Gunslinger
02-26-2005, 10:17
Last Gunslinger- Well hold on there fella!* I don't want you to leap to logical fallicies so quickly :huh: .* You are making quite the false dilemma argument here.*
Things are never that black or white.
I never said abortion was a black and white issue, the religious right did, and do, everytime they say "Abortion is murder" Like you are about to point out, murder is a black or white kind of issue.
Even if I know someone like Rudloph, I really have no means to prevent him of carrying out his divine judgement short of 'preemptive murder'.
Sure you do. Call the cops. They'll take it from there.
Same with the citizens around Dachau.* Either they kill the SS detatchment that sets up the camp 'preemtively', and commit murder (more like suicide with murderous intent), or try to seek justice and get executed.
Like I said, they didn't have the means to end Dachau, the authorities were in callusion with the murderers. Not so (at least yet) with Rudolph. You could report him to the police, or after the fact, you could just not help him evade justice like some "Christians" in NC did. Or if you were in FL when Paul Hill was walking up to a doctor with a shotgun, you could draw your CCW and defend him. Would it be pre-emptive murder if you shot Paul Hill or a wanna-be as he was leveling a shotgun at a doctor? I know everytime I have taken a friend or girlfriend to a women's clinic, I have always carried a CCW and prepared myself to shoot someone, because down here, being at a women's clinic is enough to get you shot or blown up if its on a day they are performing abortions.
Any Christian should and must know that the ends don't justify the means.* If I dislike abortion, murdering abortion doctors and women who have had the procedure is not condonable within christianity.* Within Judeo-Christian Religion, murder is NEVER justifiable The commandment says "Thou shalt not COMMIT MURDER", not "Thou shalt not KILL" (king james was poorly translated).*
Surely you don't mean that you do believe 1 million babies are murdered in the US each year and you certainly hate it, but you don't feel moved to do anything about it. If I thought that way I would be so ashamed of my cowardice.
Eric may of beleived that he killed in Gods name and according to his divine plan, but he could not of, because by justifying murder through religion, he found a new god and worshiped him in twisted ways that the Christian God couldn't accept.* He became a blasphemer, a heretic and a non-christian as soon as he justified murder through God and Christ.* Muslims all over the world, and especially here in the US say the same thing about he 9/11 hijackers, though you won't know it if you only listen to Fox News and other right wing propaganda mouthpieces like drudgereport.com, etc. Why is it that you think when you claim the Christian offenders are heretics it is credible, and when they say it the Muslim offenders are heretics, it isn't?
If your argument is that God of the Bible doesn't tell people to kill people, you are sadly mistaken, because he does just that, several times.
No, my argument isn't that he doesn't tell people to kill other people.* He does, in the name of justice and self defense, and war.* But, you missed the point here.* Mr. Rudloph commited murder-- an act God neither permits nor asks for.* I must take* back my comment relating Christian and Islamicist terrorists.* Christian terrorists are Apostate Christians, whereas Islamicist terrorists are still Muslims.* They're acts are just as evil, but Islam condones it more than Christianity.
He commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, cow, dog, in Canaan, burn down everyhouse, and turn under the ashes. You might not call that "murder", but it sounds like the SS in the ghettos to me, not like it was in the name of justice and/or self defense, and/or war. When they spared some women and kids, God punished them to wander the desert for 40 years, just like he did when they made a golden calf. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Is it not murder solely because God commanded it? If so, how can you prove that God commanded the Israelites, but didn't command Rudolph. Rudolph certainly seems to think God commanded him. God of the Exodus was a schizophrenic. Like Rudolph. Hmmmmm.
Stooxie-- The fundamentalists are no-ones friend.* They are not really christians but name christians only (mostly), pushing fervently a version of Christianity that lacks the esssential charecteristics of Christianity.* Any Christian should know that his faith has no bearing on anyone elses.
Unless of course he has read Matthew.
In other words, no mans faith or revelations can proove his faith to be true.* A true christian will respect Jews and their own chosen path, and will not push for conversion. This is the true meaning of Agnosticism, that faith cannot be prooved, and arguments on this ground (the only ones that can be made) are fallacious.* Christianity is Agnostic, and to try for conversion, you sacrifice this essential element of the religion and loose a part of your religion.*
*steps off pulpit*
So you aren't supposed to try to convert non believers, or just Jew nonbelivers? Cause I always got the distinct impression that evangelical christians were out to convert the whole world. They were in fact commisioned to do just that. The problem is that they think somehow, their hard to swallow, unprovable, based on faith religion is somehow worth more than all the other hard to swallow, unprovable, based on faith religions of the world. And that egotism is not very Jesus-like, IMO, so its kind of a paradox.
BTW, did ya'll hear that some guy from PA got arrested for conspiracy to commit terrorism, he was showing right wingers, white supremacists, anti-choice protestors how to make pipe bombs to further their terrorist causes. One of his students was a federal agent. So, day two of this saga, and the drama continues, the right is still trying to commit terrorist acts against the US, and when the next bomb goes off, I hope you are all ready to condemn the religious terrorism of American Christians like you are the religious terrorism of foriegn Muslims. Otherwise, you are hypocrites, and I'll be sure to call you such.
Last Gunslinger
02-26-2005, 10:32
And you know what? you dont have to listen to hours of religious bs. reject it if you want. but dont open up a religious forum and then come in and tell us that what we talk about is bs! Im not going to go very far in arguing logical and tangible proof to anyone if they are not willing to listen to the argument. That is why I offered those audio files. Unless someone reviews those as I have many times, then I will not regard their side of "that" argument as credible.
Also, while I would listen to the above audio files if I could, I am on dial up, at the office, and cannot. And I really doubt that the "proof" of God's existence is in them. Seems like that would have made headlines at least on Fox news.
Also, since you brought it up, I will go anywhere I want to be heard, and say anything I like. That is called Freedom of Speech. You don't have to like what I say, you can think its silly, I certainly think what a lot of you have said is silly. But you can't prevent me from saying what I think, even if what I think is that Christianity is still the same devil that ran around Managua with a sword. I'll think differently when I SEE differently. Not when you tell me differently, or a guy on an audio file tells me differently, because you are just men, like me, and don't know any more than I do about gods or devils. Sorry I am not big on your religion, but some people claiming to serve your god have bombed my state, killed and maimed some citizens who could have been me or my family, so I'm not inclined to be receptive to it.
YourLocalNerd
02-26-2005, 10:48
Let me understand what your saying here Gun Slinger. Are you saying that I (as an American Christian) am a hypocrite b/c I do say that all abortion is murder, and yet I don't go out and kill abortion doctors?
Your claim in and of itself is flawed my friend. Are the doctors responcible for the childs death? Only on a very small scale, if at all, depending on how you want to look at it. It is the mothers fault (or crime from my perspective). It is the mothers choice, her decision to kill her child. The Doc's only provide the service, although a reprehensible one.
Let's play this out a bit. Okay, just say that I go out and murder 5 abortion doctors before I get caught. So that is 5 less abortion doctors in the US. Well have I really stopped any abortions? Probably not, the scheduled women most likely would just re-schedule somewhere else. So, in reality what good does it do to murder the doc? None! Actually it is very counter productive against the Pro-Life movement (as you have so thoroughly explained ;) and a point that I agree with you on).
Okay so does that mean I (or any pro-lifer) should start putting the mothers in our sites? Most certainly NOT. The obvious reason being that it's kinda hard to save that little life when you kill it's mother.
So where does that leave us? Exactly where the vast majority of Christian Pro-Lifers are today. Working within this flawed system of justice to get this legal form of murder repealed from the books.
If that makes me a hypocrite in your eyes, thats cool :) I am not ashamed of what I believe nor of my actions to save thousands of murdered children per day.
YourLocalNerd
02-26-2005, 11:11
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Feb 26 2005, 01:32 PM
Also, since you brought it up, I will go anywhere I want to be heard, and say anything I like. That is called Freedom of Speech. You don't have to like what I say, you can think its silly, I certainly think what a lot of you have said is silly. But you can't prevent me from saying what I think, even if what I think is that Christianity is still the same devil that ran around Managua with a sword. I'll think differently when I SEE differently. Not when you tell me differently, or a guy on an audio file tells me differently, because you are just men, like me, and don't know any more than I do about gods or devils. Sorry I am not big on your religion, but some people claiming to serve your god have bombed my state, killed and maimed some citizens who could have been me or my family, so I'm not inclined to be receptive to it.
You don't have to apologize for not "being big on my religion" ;)
I do want to ask you, why so hostile towards Christianity? I have read all (i think, may have missed a post or two) of this thread and no one was threatened you, told you to leave or even told you to shut up. Your freedom of speach, hasnt been threatened m8.
And no one is trying to force you to believe any different than you do right now. This is a discussion, a debate nothing more. (I do find it very interesting though how it is only the anti-christian peeps who are being hostile in this thread ;) ...must be b/c we're brainwashed...)
GunSlinger, using the fact that some people who "claim" to serve our God bombed your state to not be "big on our religion" doesn't really hold water. I hate to be critical, but if you want to take what .01% of my religion has done in modern history and hold it against the entirety of my religion, than isn't that just the same as saying "well 2% of all gun owners end up committing a violent crime with a firearm in their lifetime, so all gun owners are evil" or that "1% of all automobile drivers will drive drunk sometime in their lifetime, so all drunks and or automobile drivers are evil". I could go on for quite sometime, but I think my point is made.
One can't take the extreme small bad percentages and hold it agaisnt the whole group, no matter who that group is. If you pay attention, most if no all news casts refer to terrorists as terrorists, not muslims ;) It is however a fact that most terrorists are of the muslim religion so the "confusion" in labels is understandable in a way.
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Feb 26 2005, 01:32 PM
Also, while I would listen to the above audio files if I could, I am on dial up, at the office, and cannot. And I really doubt that the "proof" of God's existence is in them. Seems like that would have made headlines at least on Fox news.
Also, since you brought it up, I will go anywhere I want to be heard, and say anything I like. That is called Freedom of Speech. You don't have to like what I say, you can think its silly, I certainly think what a lot of you have said is silly. But you can't prevent me from saying what I think, even if what I think is that Christianity is still the same devil that ran around Managua with a sword. I'll think differently when I SEE differently. Not when you tell me differently, or a guy on an audio file tells me differently, because you are just men, like me, and don't know any more than I do about gods or devils. Sorry I am not big on your religion, but some people claiming to serve your god have bombed my state, killed and maimed some citizens who could have been me or my family, so I'm not inclined to be receptive to it.
Im on dial up and i have had no problem downloading these. And of course Fox news is not going to play them... because its not good for ratings... regardless if it is truth. Most people will believe a lie, i see it all the time. Just cuz its not on Fox news does not mean it isnt true, lol, that's silly logic.
Of course you can do and say what you want.... but what is the point of coming into a theological discussion and tell us we are wrong. that, in any other circumstance, is considered, futile, immature, and trollish. Likewise, if you want to discuss atheism in an atheistic forum, I wont come into your room and proclaim the gospel, because that would be a waste of my time. In other words, coming into our little corner where we discuss our beliefs in God, and you telling us we are wrong, is a waste of your time -- we won't accept a word you say. Ok? Since Bill gave we Christians a place to discuss our beliefs together away from the rest of the crowd, the rest of the crowd has been coming in to persecute us!! Grow up and leave us alone, man! I have never seen such rude actions on this PU forum until the christians have been put into one place, now we are a target for the ugly to fire at. And worst of all, a certain moderator who is running the show, is doing the same thing and setting a bad example for the rest... he gave us this subforum, and his actions are subsequently hurting this forum, creating ugly fights within it, so that down the road he may justify removing it! I think that in order for this forum to be fair, a believer from within should be appointed moderator, so that the dissention in this subforum can be policed before the subforum is destroyed by the constant bickering caused by attacks from unbelievers! I would like to nominate someone, possibly a few (definately not me), but I wont even mention any names because, I, for one, would not like the job because it has not been very pleasant to discuss things here lately. So, if anyone is up to the job, they will step forward.
Lastly, don't blame Christians, and tell us what we believe in is false because some so called "christians" do horrible things. We are not them! And, furthermore, the truth will not cease to be the truth, just because some (bad christians) want to pervert it.
Basically, I can sum it up for you folks like this. We (believers) are here to discuss our beliefs with each other in an effort to uncover truth, and enjoy fellowship with each other. If you want to believe what we say, then we will gladly try to help you understand what it is we have learned. BUT, if you come in here NOT wanting to believe what we discuss, and then want to tell us we are wrong??? well, GROW UP, YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME!!
---- end of rant, thank you.... this is getting the beast of me. <_<
darjeeling
02-26-2005, 11:58
Well, I don't know where to start with your last couple of posts Last Gunslinger. A couple of others beat me to it, but I still have my buck-fifty to add. Of course Christians try for conversion. Its only that the vast majority of the people looking hard to do so are not selling Christianity. They are selling ersatz which is much more palatable, much easier to accept, and quite worthless when compared with the real thing. Conversion can not be forced, faith cannot come from anyone else but the person looking for it. These forceful converts are not christians, just people within the umbrella of christendom-- full of christianitys trappings but with none of the essential elements. And these converters are not christians either, and are sinning egregiously throught their actions. Unfortunately, among the ranks of false Christianity peddlers are the real nutcases and terrorists, who bring a blight on those who can at worst be associated with by name only. But Christianity should not and must not be judged by those who never reached the requirements of christianity, such as those nuts and criminals you so love to bring up.
The point you seem ot have missed is that these terrorists who claim to do their actions because of Gods imparitive are apostate-- heretics who no longer deserve or receive the title of Christian. Another one is that the Muslims you point out do not have the basis in their scripture or religious history to actually claim the heretics are not Muslims. All the lapsed muslims I know will say the same. In short, a Muslim can be a terroist and still be a Muslim, but a Christian will become a heretic by doing the same.
Even if I am ashamed of the actions of others, and beleive they are doing great sins, it is never excuseable to commit murder to prevent sin. It is easy to blindly stike out at what one perceves to be wrong. It takes great strength to leave that judgement to God.
Also, the whole point of faith is that you CANNOT PROVE Gods existence. Nor can you disprove it. You can only beleive or not beleive, and to beleive is faith. These 'proofs' are only little things that some people with faith like to trade around. I don't care for them. If you are looking for proof of God, you can only look inside your heart for it.
Sorry, I don't know the specifics of this Rudolph case. If people colluded with him, they are culpable and almost as bad as him. But if I knew he wanted to do stuff like that, calling the police would do very little if he had done nothing beforehand. If you collude with a murderer, you are complicit for his actions. If you had the ability to prevent it and didn't, you took the cowards way out. Not everyone can be a hero, and I'm not defending cowardice, but not everyone has that kind of bravery. If you don't do either, then your actions on this part are morally neutral. You can't be judged for something you have no control over or influence on.
I don't care if you don't like Christianity. It is apparent that you don't. But if you desire to debase it, look within the dogma, requirements and true meanings of Christianity before you do so. All you have done is slander Christianity by the actions of non-Christians and their beleifs that would be heretical to any God-fearing Christian. If that doesn't seem redicioulous to anyone but me, I would be quite suprised. You've only made me appreciate Christianity more by these baseless accusations. If you can find any real faults with Christianity, I'd love to know.
Last Gunslinger
02-26-2005, 12:01
I was making fun of Fox news, I think if there was a headline that would prove a pont for any right wing group, Rupert Murdoch would give it airtime. I personally don't watch Fox news, so even if they showed it, I'd have missed it. I can't get the files to download, but then, I can't use hyperlinks inside posts here on PU for some reason. The deal breaker is that I don't care enough to find out why, and then download some audio files of some guy trying to prove something that I am not gonna believe.
This forum is called "religious chit chat". Not "Praise God or Leave". I am discussing religion, and what a waste of time and lives it is. If you think that is persecution, you have delusions of persecution, a symptom of mental illness. I don't see where Bill said that this forum was for Christians to fellowship, and for everyone else to leave them alone. I also don't see an athiests forum here, for me to enjoy and you to avoid. I'm sure you would love to have an iron fisted hellfire breather as the moderator, so he could delete all the posts that don't start and end with "god is great", that is how most of the religious right is, intolerant of other views, and of the opinion that they can force theirs on us, but we can't force ours on them. I am here to tell you that is not the case whether you like it or not. It might be a waste of time to tell you your religion is stupid, and to keep it out of my face and out of my laws, but no more than it is a waste of time for you to tell me that some audio files contain "Proof of god's existence". I'll stop wasting my time when you do. If you think this is rude, I think the same thing about your religious elitism, yet I am not telling you to leave, or to stop talking. You should learn some manners and do the same. Drop the double standard, grab some credibilty. It would do you good.
Last Gunslinger
02-26-2005, 12:21
Let me understand what your saying here Gun Slinger.* Are you saying that I (as an American Christian) am a hypocrite b/c I do say that all abortion is murder, and yet I don't go out and kill abortion doctors?*
That is exactly what I am saying.
Your claim in and of itself is flawed my friend.* Are the doctors responcible for the childs death?* Only on a very small scale, if at all, depending on how you want to look at it.* It is the mothers fault (or crime from my perspective).* It is the mothers choice, her decision to kill her child.* The Doc's only provide the service, although a reprehensible one.
Perhaps Rudolph's bomb targeted the mothers, I don't know who he targeted. I do know who he killed (a cop) and who he maimed (a nurse).
Let's play this out a bit.* Okay, just say that I go out and murder 5 abortion doctors before I get caught.* So that is 5 less abortion doctors in the US.* Well have I really stopped any abortions?* Probably not, the scheduled women most likely would just re-schedule somewhere else.
Unless of course they didn't know that they were pregnant until they were 6 weeks or so, and then had to wait a week or two for the state law "waiting period", and then you shot the doctor, and they had to repeat, but now were too far along to have the abortion legally, or to afford it (gets more $$ the farther along you are).
So, in reality what good does it do to murder the doc?* None!* Actually it is very counter productive against the Pro-Life movement (as you have so thoroughly explained ;) and a point that I agree with you on).* What good does it do to kill every man, woman and child, dog and cow in Canaan? Who cares what good it does if God is the one that ordered it? You'd better do it.
Okay so does that mean I (or any pro-lifer) should start putting the mothers in our sites?* Most certainly NOT.* The obvious reason being that it's kinda hard to save that little life when you kill it's mother.
Tell it to Rudolph.
So where does that leave us?* Exactly where the vast majority of Christian Pro-Lifers are today.* Working within this flawed system of justice to get this legal form of murder repealed from the books. If that is good enough to let you sleep at night, working withing the flawed system, congratulations. Sounds like a hypocrite to me.
If that makes me a hypocrite in your eyes, thats cool :)* I am not ashamed of what I believe nor of my actions to save thousands of murdered children per day.How exactly do your actions save thousand of children every day? I'm glad we're in agreement that its cool, cause I do think you are a hypocrite.
I do want to ask you, why so hostile towards Christianity? I have read all (i think, may have missed a post or two) of this thread and no one was threatened you, told you to leave or even told you to shut up. Your freedom of speach, hasnt been threatened m8.
I am hostile towards Christianity because I have not met a follower of that religion who was not a hypocrite. Not one. As for the rest of your quote, about no one telling me to leave or shut up, Read this: In other words, coming into our little corner where we discuss our beliefs in God, and you telling us we are wrong, is a waste of your time -- we won't accept a word you say. Ok? Since Bill gave we Christians a place to discuss our beliefs together away from the rest of the crowd, the rest of the crowd has been coming in to persecute us!! Grow up and leave us alone, man! I have never seen such rude actions on this PU forum until the christians have been put into one place, now we are a target for the ugly to fire at. And worst of all, a certain moderator who is running the show, is doing the same thing and setting a bad example for the rest... he gave us this subforum, and his actions are subsequently hurting this forum, creating ugly fights within it, so that down the road he may justify removing it! I think that in order for this forum to be fair, a believer from within should be appointed moderator, so that the dissention in this subforum can be policed before the subforum is destroyed by the constant bickering caused by attacks from unbelievers! I would like to nominate someone, possibly a few (definately not me), but I wont even mention any names because, I, for one, would not like the job because it has not been very pleasant to discuss things here lately. So, if anyone is up to the job, they will step forward.
Lastly, don't blame Christians, and tell us what we believe in is false because some so called "christians" do horrible things. We are not them! And, furthermore, the truth will not cease to be the truth, just because some (bad christians) want to pervert it.
Basically, I can sum it up for you folks like this. We (believers) are here to discuss our beliefs with each other in an effort to uncover truth, and enjoy fellowship with each other. If you want to believe what we say, then we will gladly try to help you understand what it is we have learned. BUT, if you come in here NOT wanting to believe what we discuss, and then want to tell us we are wrong??? well, GROW UP, YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME!!
If you can find any real faults with Christianity, I'd love to know. If you can show me anyone who follows real "christianity", I'd love to see that. Mostly I see homophobia and domination of women in modern "christianity". Neither was a tenant of Jesus, so I don't get it.
And no one is trying to force you to believe any different than you do right now. This is a discussion, a debate nothing more. (I do find it very interesting though how it is only the anti-christian peeps who are being hostile in this thread ...must be b/c we're brainwashed...)
Funny, I thought it was the Christians who WERE being hostile, and telling other people not to persecute them by expressing their opinions here. I was also unaware that I was being hostile. I did not mean to come across as such here, but since you asked, I am often, f***ing hostile. Especially when people tell me to be quiet or leave. It is my nature.
BTW I grew up in church, was confirmed and baptized at age 12. I am a member (not active) of the United Methodist Church, just like George W. Bush. The UMC does not belive that abortion is a sin. The Book of Discipline of the UMC says quite clearly that abortion is between a woman, her doctor, and her God afer consultation with her pastor. Why do you think Bush didn't catch hell for not following his churches teachings like Kerry did on the abortion issue? Cause of the liberal media? <_<
YourLocalNerd
02-26-2005, 13:08
Perhaps Rudolph's bomb targeted the mothers, I don't know who he targeted. I do know who he killed (a cop) and who he maimed (a nurse).
Has he been convicted yet? Last I knew it was innocent until proven guilty ;) And even if he were convicted, I never said I approved, condoned or liked what he did. Your still holding a grudge on all Christiandom b/c of what 1 or 2 men did ;) And you call me intolerant ;)
Unless of course they didn't know that they were pregnant until they were 6 weeks or so, and then had to wait a week or two for the state law "waiting period", and then you shot the doctor, and they had to repeat, but now were too far along to have the abortion legally, or to afford it (gets more $$ the farther along you are).
You are splitting hairs...you knew what I meant and mean...
Tell it to Rudolph.
Did Rudolph kill a pregnant mother ? ;) And again, you dodging the subject...
If that is good enough to let you sleep at night, working withing the flawed system, congratulations. Sounds like a hypocrite to me.
How exactly do your actions save thousand of children every day? I'm glad we're in agreement that its cool, cause I do think you are a hypocrite.
Okay more properly put, "trying to save..." And what do I do? I picket, pray, donate money to local anti-abortion clinics, funds, and activities.
And in regards to your "demeaning" remarks, you won't bait me my friend ;) But good try though :)
I am hostile towards Christianity because I have not met a follower of that religion who was not a hypocrite. Not one. As for the rest of your quote, about no one telling me to leave or shut up, Read this:
And you got exactly what you were trying to get too ;) I have not seen a peaceful post by you in this sub-forum yet. It appears your sole purpose here is to poke and cajole until someone reacts and then you get to stand up and yell "see!! see!! everything I have said is true!!".
Funny, I thought it was the Christians who WERE being hostile, and telling other people not to persecute them by expressing their opinions here. I was also unaware that I was being hostile. I did not mean to come across as such here, but since you asked, I am often, f***ing hostile. Especially when people tell me to be quiet or leave. It is my nature.
hehehe :lol: , I will leave that one alone.. :lol:
BTW I grew up in church, was confirmed and baptized at age 12. I am a member (not active) of the United Methodist Church, just like George W. Bush. The UMC does not belive that abortion is a sin. The Book of Discipline of the UMC says quite clearly that abortion is between a woman, her doctor, and her God afer consultation with her pastor. Why do you think Bush didn't catch hell for not following his churches teachings like Kerry did on the abortion issue? Cause of the liberal media?
But I will touch this one ;) Now for my "intolarant side". None of that makes you a Christian. Don't care if you've been baptised, confermned, are still a member or whatever. None of that makes GW a Christian either. And if the UMC says that abortion is okay, than the UMC is not of God. I am not saying that my church or denomination is the "only one true way" b/c it is not. But I can say in certainty that, God does not recognize that church beyond its apostacy.
You are right in saying that homophobia is not of Jesus and neither is female repression (although I would really really like to know how on earth the modern Christian church represses woman...). But saying that homosexuality is wrong, is like Jesus. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. Just because it is wrong doesn't mean that a Christian hates or looks down on a person living in that lifestyle. I know some that do, but most don't. I know some that are extreme homophobes too, but most aren't. No Christian is perfect, no matter how hard they try. And you can't expect them to be.
As Darjeeling said, you really need to learn about that you try to argue against before you try and ague against it.
LastGunslinger, since you so want to add to this conversation, lets try something more positive, ok?
How do you define religion?
What are your beliefs in God?
Is there a religion that best suits your beliefs in God?
What would you call that religion?
Do you have anything else positive you would like to add to the discussion?
Originally posted by darjeeling@Feb 26 2005, 02:58 PM
Also, the whole point of faith is that you CANNOT PROVE Gods existence. Nor can you disprove it. You can only beleive or not beleive, and to beleive is faith. These 'proofs' are only little things that some people with faith like to trade around. I don't care for them.
Darjeeling...
I agree that faith is to believe in that which is not seen. Maybe just not everybody sees the proof like I do. You see, I have been such a non-believing egotistical sob atheist for quite a while, and nothing short of proof would have convinced me otherwise. However, a couple fantastic events happened to me that led me to a curiosty I couldn't ignore. In The last 5 or 10 years I have been adding up the little proofs that point to the existence of God, and also the proofs that point to the non-existence of God. What I have come up with is this: the sum of the proofs which point to the non-existence of God, while at times were questionable, have never added to anything more than zero. On the other hand, the sum of the little proofs that point to the existence of God have added to such a staggering amount of evidence that no question of non-existence could shake it. AND, not only that, there are some logical proofs I've recently discovered that carry some very heavy weight all on their own. Now, granted I am and probably always will be a skeptic, and maybe it is because I have a hard time dealing with faith alone that I have come to rationalize these little proofs. But, I can tell you that I did not just rationalize these little proofs in my head so that I could find a way to believe in God. I did so because I'm quite an intelligent person and they make perfect sense to me -- anything to the contrary would not be logical. But, hey... what you say here also makes perfect sense
If you are looking for proof of God, you can only look inside your heart for it.
because that is where I started.... but since I can be such a heartless sob sometimes... God put the proof in my head that I might also believe it!
Hey... ever hear of Dallas Williard? He is a professor of philosophy at the University of Southern California and he put a couple of ideas into words which I think are profound. I have always wondered about this but never quite understood it to be what it is until I heard these two statements. I can paraphrase them like this:
However concrete reality is sectioned, the result will be a state of affairs which owes its being to something other than itself -- something completely removed from concrete reality.
Evolution, whether cosmic or biological, cannot logically be a theory of ultimate origins. Its operation presupposes the existence of certain entities with specific potential behaviors and an environment of some specific kind that operates upon those entities in some specifically ordered fashion -- the type of structure found in evolution did not itself come through evolution. This is not an argument from design, but an argument to design -- intelligent design.
Btw, what are ya studying that requires all the calculus?
darjeeling
02-26-2005, 15:11
Engineering of course. I think I want to do materials or mechanical engineering.
Yeah, I was a little arrogant atheist until I realized I couldn't support my posititon with the arguments I had and became an agnostic. Then I read Kierkegaard, and I became a agnostic leaning towards beleif. It just took a couple years of soul searching before I could beleive. I never thought I'd be here, but I'm glad I made it!
Dar... I just noticed in another post that you said you play banjo! cool! I play drums in all sorts of bands (blues, reggae, swing, whatever) but a couple years ago I got serious about the bass and I've been playing in a bluegrass band. I love bluegrass and that gypsy jazz style like Django Reinhardt and Stephane Grappelli as well as Bella Fleck style banjo. Of course I love about all the traditional stuff... man, it just swings! Btw, I'm doin engineering myself... just finishin my first two years and goin on to get my BA for electrical engineering (computer design track). What kinda stuff ya like to do on the banjo? How do ya like Hayseed Dixie? lol are they a crackup or what?
He commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, cow, dog, in Canaan, burn down everyhouse, and turn under the ashes. You might not call that "murder", but it sounds like the SS in the ghettos to me, not like it was in the name of justice and/or self defense, and/or war. When they spared some women and kids, God punished them to wander the desert for 40 years, just like he did when they made a golden calf. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Is it not murder solely because God commanded it? If so, how can you prove that God commanded the Israelites, but didn't command Rudolph. Rudolph certainly seems to think God commanded him. God of the Exodus was a schizophrenic. Like Rudolph. Hmmmmm.
In fact the command was because of all the awful things these people were doing. God was using the Israelites to execute that judgement. As for why this judgement... read about it. God used Nebuchadnezzer to judge Israel, and then He later judged Nebuchadnezzar. Even this prideful heathen king came around to acknowledge that God was the Lord of all. He even wrote a section of the Bible.
I am hostile towards Christianity because I have not met a follower of that religion who was not a hypocrite. Not one.
It is true that all men are hypocrites... you don't have to be a Christian to own that. This is exactly why all men need a Savior.
edited for spelling
Originally posted by Tankcommander@Jan 11 2005, 03:05 PM
Guys this is deep stuff, But even the Christains have fragmented into several sects are they all right? Catholic vs Protestan vs Lutherain vs Baptist ETC.. are all of them right even though they differ in some of their core beliefs. The message of Jesus has been translated edited and interpreted for 1900 years how much of it is the pure word of Christ. If memory serves the first gospels were written decades after his death.
I minored in religion in college and one thing I learned was how the organized religions twisted the word of God to suit the desires of men. A major dispute in the 4th or 5th century about the nature of Christ, man vs god was settled with a vote to repair the scism and all dissenters were crushed.
I think I'd prefer the Viking religion die with your sword(or mini-14) in your hand have a Viking funeral and go to Vallhalla to sit beside Odin.
TC
Well they do differ on superficial but not core beliefs, the core belief is the answer to one question "Who do you say that I am?". All Christian faiths are based on this question with one answer. Any other answer removes that religion from the list. And many have done just that, thus they can not be part of the Christin Faith. Thinking one can see the truth without knowing it is foolish.
Last Gunslinger
02-28-2005, 08:27
But saying that homosexuality is wrong, is like Jesus. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong.
Perhaps you can quote from the Bible for me and tell me exactly where Jesus said "homosexuality is wrong", or anything to that effect. Don't show me something about lust in your heart, or something about sin, show me where Jesus Christ said "Homosexuality (or even being a practicing homosexual) is a sin", or "homosexuality is an abomination". Not old Jewish law, but Jesus, your Christ, and maker of the New Covenant, said anything about homosexuals being sinners. If you can't do that, then saying homosexuality is wrong is not like Jesus, it is like Rabbis. WWRD?
In fact the command was because of all the awful things these people were doing. God was using the Israelites to execute that judgement.
What awful things were the Cannanites doing, that made their children's lives, and even their dogs lives forfeit? Actually I think it was because they were occupying the land that the Israelites wanted. That town wasn't big enough for the both of them, all that jazz. Land wars of the Old East, Golden Cow Boys vs. PalestIndians.
How do you define religion? I have two. One is for personal religion, i.e., in your heart beliefs. That is "religion" as in "I got that old time religion" where you feel joyous in your heart and happy to be alive and thankful to the White energies (whatever they be to you) that brought time/space to this particular point. This is good. Good Religion.
Also there is Bad Religion, and it ain't just a has-been band. Bad religion is when you decide that they only way to praise the energies that brought the world here to this particular point in time/space is YOUR way of praising them, and all the others are evil, that they praise the Red, or the Black energies, depending on your culture. This is what drives people to run around with swords or nailbombs and cross banners, or AKs in the back of a Toyota pickup.
What are your beliefs in God? I believe in a Creator. I think the Creator set the big bang in motion, the universe exploded, and where she went after that, I have no idea. I don't think she can hear us, I don't think she can see us, at least not individually. Does she care for us? Who knows? I am a farmer, I like to kinda think of her like that. I like to think she looks in this direction sometime, to see if what she sowed looks healthy, looks like its is thriving. I think if she looked too closely at earth, she wouldn't be very pleased. I don't think she knows each of us personally, or how many hairs we have on our heads.
Is there a religion that best suits your beliefs in God? Not a single one, no. I like parts of many of them. Sometimes I really like the Hindu idea that the universe is in Gan's navel. Time/Space is shaped like a bowl, that could make sense, if Gan has an innie. I like the hindu idea of serving the White, the good energy of the universe, and fighting the Red, the destructive energies. I like Jesus' ideas of loving your neighbor as yourself, and of honoring God by treating all His children by treating them like your brothers and sisters. I like that Jesus specified that we only treat Him as well as we treat the least of our neighbors. I believe in the wisdom in the Hagakure, I try to follow the Way of the Samurai, which for the most part is to make a decision, don't second guess everything all the time. Make up your mind in seven breaths then act, and follow through. I prolly take the least amount of influence from Islam, it is relatively new to me, I have only been studying it since 2000 or so. While I am never too static, a lot of my ideas were already formed by the time I began to read the Koran, and I was pretty half-assed about it until after 9/11. I got a little more curious then, but at the same time, the WTC attacks kinda impeded my ability to look at modern Islam in an impartial light. I wanted to lump it into a catagory with Southern Baptists, and Church of Christ, i.e. a hateful interpretation of a peaceful idea.
What would you call that religion? I wouldn't. More like a Way. I don't believe that if you don't do things my Way you are any better or any worse off than I am. I think you have to find your Way. If your Way is a cookie cutter copy of someone else's Way, you are either lazy or weakminded, or brainwashed, or all three.
Do you have anything else positive you would like to add to the discussion?
I'll try.
Jesus said, he was the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. I just want to remind everyone that the way is the way, and not the destiniation. You behave in Jesus Way, love your neighbor as yourself, to get to the destination, grace.
I also have a question for ya'll:
Why is it that the Masters never wrote anything? Jesus was a teacher, Siddhartha was a prince, both literate, both well spoken and quoted, but neither personally wrote anything down that has survived.
I like to think it is because they were spell-breakers, not spell-binders.
I don't mean to insult anyone, really. I don't dislike someone automatically because they claim to be a christian, or anything like that.
None of that makes you a Christian. Don't care if you've been baptised, confermned, are still a member or whatever. None of that makes GW a Christian either. And if the UMC says that abortion is okay, than the UMC is not of God. I am not saying that my church or denomination is the "only one true way" b/c it is not. But I can say in certainty that, God does not recognize that church beyond its apostacy. I never claimed to be a Christian. I simply gave you some background so you could see that I am not ignorant about Christian Ways. I know scripture as well as anyone here I would bet (and I would bet, I don't think its a sin). I never said G.W. was a Chrisitian either, but he certainly says it. What you CANNOT say is anything, with certainty about a church or a god. I know for a fact that if you came in to my old church and told the little old ladies in the front way that God does not recognize that church beyond its apostacy, they would tell you that they are quite certain that he does. And if you told them the UMC was not of God, they would tell you that it most certainly is, they are certain about it, and reassured every time they pray to God. And you'd all be certain about completely different things. I am certain of it. I am also aware that my certainty is worthless, in the grand scheme of things. Are you?
On a different note, I play the fiddle, and the mandolin, and the guitar. Nice to talk to some pickers and all. I started on Suzuki Method classical violin when I was three, but I was a little farmer's kid from Alabama, I learned to play bluegrass and folk music from the time I was really little too. When I was little, I used to get taken around to the old folk's homes with some retired pickers and we'd play for the recluses and what not.
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 09:50
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Feb 28 2005, 04:27 PM
But saying that homosexuality is wrong, is like Jesus. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong.
Perhaps you can quote from the Bible for me and tell me exactly where Jesus said "homosexuality is wrong", or anything to that effect. Don't show me something about lust in your heart, or something about sin, show me where Jesus Christ said "Homosexuality (or even being a practicing homosexual) is a sin", or "homosexuality is an abomination". Not old Jewish law, but Jesus, your Christ, and maker of the New Covenant, said anything about homosexuals being sinners. If you can't do that, then saying homosexuality is wrong is not like Jesus, it is like Rabbis. WWRD?
In fact the command was because of all the awful things these people were doing. God was using the Israelites to execute that judgement.
What awful things were the Cannanites doing, that made their children's lives, and even their dogs lives forfeit? Actually I think it was because they were occupying the land that the Israelites wanted. That town wasn't big enough for the both of them, all that jazz. Land wars of the Old East, Golden Cow Boys vs. PalestIndians.
Ok, I'll bite on that that one.
I will remind you that I am not coming at this from a "judeo" Christian standpoint, but from a Christian one. As far as homosexuality, rather than give you my take on it, I'll just answer your repetive questions from the scriptures. You are not one thats trying to learn, but just here to troll and cause trouble, so I wont spend much time with you hereafter, mainly because the King says not to cast your pearls before swine. I have another saying, argueing scripture with an unbeliever, is like wrestling with a pig, you both get dirty, and the pig likes it. As far as what would the rabbi's do? Thats easy enough, one can simply go to the babylonian talmud to see that they would condone homosexuality, as well as pedophelia. Sanhedrin 54b, and many many others. They would probably use the same tactics to twist the scriptures that you do. Back to your question.
To believers, Jesus Christ IS the God of the Old Testament. John chapter one, verse one, declares that, "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...........14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us"
Concerning the old law of statutes and judgments, Christ said in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
You asked where it was said that it was a sin? What is sin? Im sure you have your own deffinition, but here is the Bible deffinition. 1st John Chapter 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." What law?...Hmmmm <_<
What was the law concerning the particular pet sin that you seen to be so bent on defending?
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
I say that not that it will make a difference to you, it is obvious that it will not. I've encountered your kind before. You are here to prosoletize for your cause.
As far as what did the Caananites do? Well many do not realize what was the curse that was put upon Canaan and why. Lets clear up the air right now, and tear down some of the false teaching taught in "judeo"churchianity.
Why was Canann cursed? He was cursed because what his father did.
Gen. 9:22...25
22" And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without."
25 "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Gee...I wonder what he did? <_< Did he look at his daddy's pee-pee, or was it something worse than that, resulting in an offspring named Caanan?
First we must see what the Hebrew figure of speach meant to, "look upon your father's nakedness".
Leviticus 20:11 "And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Another wittness:
Leviticus 18: 6 "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness."
You see, Canaan was a genetic misfit. He was an idiot!! Due to interbreeding to close within his family lines, or "near of kin to him" as it says above. We see today that when some pervert rapes his daughter, and she concieves, the result is someone with defective mental capacity. From archeology we find that his defective mental capacity was one of a moral and sexual nature.
In Haley's Bible handbook, page 166 in my copy says the following under the section, "Religion of the Canaanites".
"Baal was thier princapal god; Ashtoreth, Ball's wife, thier principal goddess.........Temples of Baal , and Ashtoreth were usally together. Preistesses were temple prostitutes. Sodomites were male temple prositutes. The worship of Baal, Ashtoreth, and other Canaanite gods consisted of the most extravigant sex orgies; thier temples were centers of vice.
ARCHAELOGICAL NOTES: Canaanite Religion.
In excavations at Gezer, Macalister, of the Palestine Exploration Fund (1904-09), found, in the Canaanite statum, which had preceeded the Israelite occupatin...the riuns of a "High Place", which had been a temple were they worshiped their gods, Baal, and Ashtoreth.....Under the debris, in this "high place", Macalister found great numbers of jars containing the remains of children that had been sacrificed to Baal, and laid in the foundation of the buildings. This practice was called, "foundation sacrifice"..........Also in this "high place", under the rubbish, Macalister found enormous quantities of images and plaques of Ashtoreth with rudley exagerated sex organs, designed to foster sensual feelings..."
It is clear that the Caananites were/are a cursed people, just like their daddy. They obviously had not developed the part of the brain in the frontal lobes that allow for morallity, and the knowledge of knowing right from wrong.
Maybe God knew what he was talking about, ya think??? Maybe He could see into the future at the mess His people have today???
You say you are well studied.....maybe you should hit the BOOK a little harder. Or, perhaps, it was never meant for you to understand anyway.
Wow, and they wrote this all in English?
No, of course. We're looking at one translation. Of more than one that are available. Your chain of logic depends in this case on one particular translation. It could be the intended meaning, I'm not saying that it isn't. It's just that in order to string together statements like you just did, each one hinging on the wording of the prior, we'd probably need to go back to the original Greek or whatever each book was written in.
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 10:24
Originally posted by Bill@Feb 28 2005, 06:09 PM
Wow, and they wrote this all in English?
No, of course. We're looking at one translation. Of more than one that are available. Your chain of logic depends in this case on one particular translation.* It could be the intended meaning, I'm not saying that it isn't.* It's just that in order to string together statements like you just did, each one hinging on the wording of the prior, we'd probably need to go back to the original Greek or whatever each book was written in.
It is not as hard as it may look. All it takes is someone with the ability to read, and look up a word in the Strong's Concordance, which is a dictionary of Hebrew, and greek words that it was written in. Or, you can simply look at the different translations out there, that is if it interrests you enough.
Edited to add the references for those with the desire to study God's Word.
Many, many translations. Gospel.com (http://bible.gospelcom.net/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=49#books)
http://ferrarfenton.com/The Farrar Fenton Translation. He was an excellent scholar of the Hebrew, greek, aramaic from the turn of the century. (http://ferrarfenton.com/)
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Greek and Hebrew dictionary, and Lexicon. (http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html)
Last Gunslinger
02-28-2005, 10:49
Until they make a little mistake, like calling the "reed Sea" the "red sea", and then for a few hundred years it is God's word that Moses crossed the Red Sea while it was divided.
Of course 2nd Timothy 3:16 tells us that this is not so, that the word is preserved from translation error by the grace of God.
So what now?
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 10:58
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Feb 28 2005, 06:49 PM
Until they make a little mistake, like calling the "reed Sea" the "red sea", and then for a few hundred years it is God's word that Moses crossed the Red Sea while it was divided.
Of course 2nd Timothy 3:16 tells us that this is not so, that the word is preserved from translation error by the grace of God.
So what now?
KJV
16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
NASV
16"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;"
Amplified Translation
16"Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),"
NIV
16"All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"
NKJV
16"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"
Thank you!!! That just supports my statement above, and the God of the "old"testament is the same as Christ. "All scripture". I dont know what you were gettin at, but appearently, you have failed once again. You are obviously out of your element. ;)
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 11:11
It seems as if you are defending the same pet sins that the Canaanites loved to partake in. Do you have a frontal lobe deficiency, LGS? Abortion (ie.child sacrifice), homosexuality, and sexual imorallity. Maybe your are just disgruntled that your forefathers took such a whoopin? I dunno? http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smiley_thinking.gif
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 11:48
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Feb 26 2005, 08:01 PM
"I also don't see an athiests forum here, for me to enjoy and you to avoid."
"I am a "philisophical Christian". I believe in the tenants of Jesus of Nazareths teachings:"
You say your are an athiest.
Then you say, "I never claimed to be a Christian." Yes you did.
You say you are a Christian.
Then you say,"I believe in a Creator. " Make up your mind, will ya? Your are confusing us poor uneducated ones. :lol: Just kidding, some of us know exactly what you are. ;) Who are you to call anyone a "hypocrit"?
How in the heck do you expect anyone to gleam anything from your "pearls of "wisdom"" if you dont even know what you are/believe to begin with? Maybe you are just a confused little boy/or girl that wants to confirm what he/she thinks may be so. Maybe not, maybe you just want to troll around. Fine, but I suggest that Believers stop feeding you. You obviously have brought nothing to us but contention and strife, while others, including myself, here have fallen all over thierselves to welcome you and talk a little bit of common sense. If you dont know everything, just ask politely, and we will/would have helped you. But since you allready know everything, (except whether you are an athiest, or a "philosophical Christian") then whats the use. Every little "issue" with my faith that you have brought up can easily be countered by a fifth grader with the ability to read. What grade are you again? I have no obligation to handle you with velvet gloves, nor do I intend to. I dont see that any of the arguments that you have proposed are worth much of my time. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/spank.gif
YourLocalNerd
02-28-2005, 12:03
Perhaps you can quote from the Bible for me and tell me exactly where Jesus said "homosexuality is wrong", or anything to that effect. Don't show me something about lust in your heart, or something about sin, show me where Jesus Christ said "Homosexuality (or even being a practicing homosexual) is a sin", or "homosexuality is an abomination". Not old Jewish law, but Jesus, your Christ, and maker of the New Covenant, said anything about homosexuals being sinners. If you can't do that, then saying homosexuality is wrong is not like Jesus, it is like Rabbis. WWRD?
Sword stole my thunder on that one...
http://www.truerepublic.org/forums/html/emoticons/ernaehrung004.gif Sword :)
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 12:04
Originally posted by YourLocalNerd@Feb 28 2005, 08:03 PM
Perhaps you can quote from the Bible for me and tell me exactly where Jesus said "homosexuality is wrong", or anything to that effect. Don't show me something about lust in your heart, or something about sin, show me where Jesus Christ said "Homosexuality (or even being a practicing homosexual) is a sin", or "homosexuality is an abomination". Not old Jewish law, but Jesus, your Christ, and maker of the New Covenant, said anything about homosexuals being sinners. If you can't do that, then saying homosexuality is wrong is not like Jesus, it is like Rabbis. WWRD?
Sword stole my thunder on that one...
http://www.truerepublic.org/forums/html/emoticons/ernaehrung004.gif Sword :)
Sorry! :( :lol:
YourLocalNerd
02-28-2005, 12:12
Nothin to apologize about bro, you said it more eloquently than I would have ;)
Last Gunslinger
02-28-2005, 13:15
How about this? You just tell me what I believe, since you know.
You say your are an athiest.
No I didn't. I said that there was not an athiests forum to post in, in reference to the post above mine telling me that this is "Christians" forum, and I am not a Christian.
"I am a "philisophical Christian". I believe in the tenants of Jesus of Nazareths teachings:"
Now Literacy kicks in! Good for you! I said I am a philosophical Christian, but noticed I specified something other than a "Christian". I, in fact told you exactly what tenants of Jesus I believe: Love your neighbor as yourself, treat the least of these like you would treat Me.
I do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was any more the Son of God than you or I, nor do I believe in Virgin Conception, nor the Resurrection. So you tell me, am I a Christian? :blink: I think only "philosophically"
Then you say,"I believe in a Creator. " Make up your mind, will ya? Your are confusing us poor uneducated ones.
I'm sure it does. But try harder and you can keep up. Context clues are your friend! ;)
I expect them to read what I post, and not "know" what I posted before they read it. Furthermore, it would help if they'd read with an open mind, and if they knew religious Scriptures other than those in the Bible, or say 5 different versions of the Bible. I know the chances of getting an open mind from a "evangelical Christian" are about the same as a snowballs chance in Miami, but you asked, so I answered.
Maybe you are just a confused little boy/or girl that wants to confirm what he/she thinks may be so. Maybe not, maybe you just want to troll around. Fine, but I suggest that Believers stop feeding you.
Then shut up, believer. I am not a troll, I am here to present my ideas, you just can't stand it that they aren't YOUR ideas, and you can't accept that they are just as well thought out and supported as YOUR ideas, because YOURS are Holy, of course, mine are just ideas.
You obviously have brought nothing to us but contention and strife, while others, including myself, here have fallen all over thierselves to welcome you and talk a little bit of common sense. If you dont know everything, just ask politely, and we will/would have helped you.
I did, in fact ask some questions. You never answered any of them. Once, I asked you to show me where Jesus said homosexuality was a sin. You instead posted what I specifically asked NOT to hear, the same old BS about old Jewish law, and that one line from Matthew about not coming to destroy the law. I guess that means Jesus is for stoning people who walk too far on the Sabbath, which is from sundown Friday till Sundown Saturday.
But since you allready know everything, (except whether you are an athiest, or a "philosophical Christian") then whats the use. Every little "issue" with my faith that you have brought up can easily be countered by a fifth grader with the ability to read.
Then why are you so ****ed and unable to answer about said "issues"? I think its cause you know that there are serious issues with your "faith".
What grade are you again?
I am graduated. From college. What about you? I have also been self-employed for the last five years, if responsibility is in question. My house (a little one mind you, but big enough for me and my sister who is living there until she finishes grad-school, 2500 sq. ft., brick) is even paid off at the grand old age of 26. So I can't be that stupid.
I have no obligation to handle you with velvet gloves, nor do I intend to. I dont see that any of the arguments that you have proposed are worth much of my time. Ditto.
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 13:35
And again you bring NOTHING to the table. I'm am not "****ed" that your ideas are different from mine, I just dont care. Most Christian bretheren of mine do not agree with me either. I admit that listening to your self proclaimed intelectualism of the scriptures, caused me to grow a little weary, and desire to spank you a little bit. But I've done that now, http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/spank.gif and feel much better. :)
If I hadnt read your ridiculous tripe, I would not have noticed that you claimed three differing positions in TWO threads!! :blink: GEE WHIZ!!! :blink: You clearly stated that you held three different beliefs at the same time. Atheism, " Philisophical Christian" and Agnostic. I believe that is in and of itself a symptom of insanity, is it not? :blink: My Christian Bible ;) even agrees that it makes one "unstable in all of his ways".
James 1:8 "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
Since you are so "unstable" in all of your ways, to engage in intelectual discoarse with you from this point forward, would make me no different. Thats according to my Christian Bible. ;)
Proverbs 26:4
" Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."
As far as you telling me to shut up, and that you are not a troll, I have a Bible verse for that as well, from my Christian Bible. ;)
Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits...." http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/smiley_troll.gif
See ya LGS!!! http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/anim_wave.gif
Last Gunslinger
02-28-2005, 14:35
And again you bring NOTHING to the table. I'm am not "****ed" that your ideas are different from mine, I just dont care.
Ditto.
If I hadnt read your ridiculous tripe, I would not have noticed that you claimed three differing positions in TWO threads!!
And if you HAD read it, you'd see that I only claim one. Mine.
You clearly stated that you held three different beliefs at the same time. Atheism, " Philisophical Christian" and Agnostic.
No, I didn't. Learn to read better. Maybe you are stuck in a rut from only reading 6 different versions of the bible.
I believe that is in and of itself a symptom of insanity, is it not?* My Christian Bible* even agrees that it makes one "unstable in all of his ways".
You mean like your god during the Exodus? LOL. Who is crazier, the crazy god, or the guy who worships the crazy god?
Furthermore, who cares? I don't, about the crazy god, or his followers, so long as they don't try to make me follow their crazy god.
James 1:8 "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
Since you are so "unstable" in all of your ways, to engage in intelectual discoarse with you from this point forward, would make me no different. Thats according to my Christian Bible.*
Proverbs 26:4
" Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."
As far as you telling me to shut up, and that you are not a troll, I have a Bible verse for that as well, from my Christian Bible.*
Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits...."
I'd say you're fruity enough, for the both of us. Thanks.
See you later SS (oh, is that a freudian slip?)
Oh wow, I just saw where you put crosses on your ARs!! All you need now is a Chevy truck and you'll be the American equilavent of the AK/Toyota Taliban club. If you can round up some homosexuals and women who had abortions and shoot them through the head at the local football field, that will show those Muslim bastards that they have no monopoly on Holy Righteousness!!!
darjeeling
02-28-2005, 16:02
Children, children! No need to resort to namecalling and the like. There seems to be no forward progress in this topic. Not every comment here need be a slight to someone or their religion. If y'all cant do that, then this topic is as good as dead.
Edit: Tunug, sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, just been busy. I'm ashamed to say 99% of the bluegrass I've listened to is traditional, so I can't honestly comment on the artists you brought up. The banjo player I like best now is Bill Evans, he rips and still plays. I like just about any bluegrass banjo picking, but three finger just sounds the best. Yeah, thats a big general, but I cant really say whats my favorite style of banjo playing.
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 16:32
Originally posted by darjeeling@Mar 1 2005, 12:02 AM
.....then this topic is as good as dead.
AMEN!!!!
Wow! Let me say this first of all. My friend Swordslinger is a kind and very intelligent man who is liked by many on all the PU forums for many reasons. To see him become so fed up with the likes of YOU means to many of us that he is dealing with the most reprehensible sort of troll we've seen in a long time. I stick up for Swordslinger because 1. I am and "intelligent" Christian, and 2. because Swordslinger is also an intelligent Christian who has helped restore my faith in the humanity and humility that most Christians should possess but sadly do not! Swordslinger is a friend to all and a man who stands up and fights for what is right -- what he believes in -- a real man! That being said, let us all see what has happened here.
LastGunSlinger said:
I am hostile towards Christianity because I have not met a follower of that religion who was not a hypocrite. Yes, we could tell by the way you rebuked us all by your first words, way before you actually stated this. Although, it is not fair to judge all Christians based on the actions of a few bad men who use Christianity as an excuse to do bad things, you do. Here is how LastGunSlinger basically started in this forum:
The last terrorist to attack my home state of Alabama was not a Islamist fanatic, but a Christian fanatic. He killed in praise of Almighty God of the Bible, not of Allah. And while the religious right in this country doesn't give outright support of him, some people from that part of the political spectrum certainly do, because they helped him hide when he fled Bin Laden style to the NC mountains to shelter amongst religious nuts like himself. Which brings up another point. IMO, if you don't support Eric Rudloph's religiously motivated terrorist attacks, and yet you honestly feel that a million "babies" a year are murdered by abortion, you are no better than the Germans who smelled Dachau and didn't do anything about it.
Then, someone replies to LastGunSlinger like this: "Let me understand what your saying here Gun Slinger. Are you saying that I (as an American Christian) am a hypocrite b/c I do say that all abortion is murder, and yet I don't go out and kill abortion doctors?"
LastGunSlinger's reply:
That is exactly what I am saying. LastGunSlinger says it is wrong to kill in the name of God, but then he says Christians are hypocrites if they do not. LastGunSlinger is now contradicting himrself.
LastGunSlinger says:
Perhaps you can quote from the Bible for me and tell me exactly where Jesus said "homosexuality is wrong", or anything to that effect. Don't show me something about lust in your heart, or something about sin, show me where Jesus Christ said "Homosexuality (or even being a practicing homosexual) is a sin", or "homosexuality is an abomination". Not old Jewish law, but Jesus, your Christ, and maker of the New Covenant, said anything about homosexuals being sinners. If you can't do that, then saying homosexuality is wrong is not like Jesus, it is like Rabbis. Jesus said he was God in the flesh. His distinction for this difference between God and God in the flesh is that he was born of a virgin, as a man, with God as his paternal father -- the Son of God. God also told man in the Old Testament days that he would become a man and walk the earth. Jesus is the same God of the Old Testament. He became a man and walked the earth. The will of Christ is the same as the will of God. The two are one. God does not approve of homosexuality. Jesus does not oppose the will of God.
LastGunSlinger seems to be the authority on who God is and what is the nature of God here:
I believe in a Creator. I think the Creator set the big bang in motion, the universe exploded, and where she went after that, I have no idea. I don't think she can hear us, I don't think she can see us, at least not individually. Does she care for us? Who knows? I am a farmer, I like to kinda think of her like that. I like to think she looks in this direction sometime, to see if what she sowed looks healthy, looks like its is thriving. I think if she looked too closely at earth, she wouldn't be very pleased. I don't think she knows each of us personally, or how many hairs we have on our heads. Look, there is only one God and only one truth. Just because many people believe in many different things, that does not mean that there is many truths. There are only many lies. There is only one truth.
LastGunSlinger says:
If your Way is a cookie cutter copy of someone else's Way, you are either lazy or weakminded, or brainwashed, or all three. Again, Truth is Truth and if many believe in the same Truth it is only because they are right. However many believe in lies because truth is difficult to find. If someone finally finds the truth which is the same truth that others believe in, it is only because they have dilligently searched for it, not because they are lazy, brainwashed, and weakminded.
LastGunSlinger got it partially right when he said:
Jesus said, he was the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. I just want to remind everyone that the way is the way, and not the destiniation. You behave in Jesus Way, love your neighbor as yourself, to get to the destination, grace.But you don't seem to believe Jesus at all or follow his teachings.
concerning audio files that may contain proof of the existence of God, LastGunSlinger said:
The deal breaker is that I don't care enough to find out why, and then download some audio files of some guy trying to prove something that I am not gonna believe.... it is a waste of time for you to tell me that some audio files contain "Proof of god's existence"
We Christians enjoy posting in the religious subforum and get annoyed when non-believers come in to tell us we are wrong. LastGunSlingers response:
I don't see where Bill said that this forum was for Christians to fellowship, and for everyone else to leave them alone. I also don't see an athiests forum here, for me to enjoy and you to avoid. I think the implication is obvious; what is in the heart, the mouth speaks.
LastGunSlinger says:
since you asked, I am often, f***ing hostile. Especially when people tell me to be quiet or leave. It is my nature. We asked you to stop being hostile or leave! You have been hostile since your first words in this subforum.
LastGunSlinger says:
I am a member (not active) of the United Methodist Church Does anyone think that the UMC would be proud to call LastGunSlinger a member?
LastGunSlinger says:
Sometimes I really like the Hindu idea that the universe is in Gan's navel. Time/Space is shaped like a bowl, that could make sense, if Gan has an innie.... I try to follow the Way of the Samurai, which for the most part is to make a decision, don't second guess everything all the time. Make up your mind in seven breaths then act, and follow through. I prolly take the least amount of influence from Islam, it is relatively new to me, I have only been studying it since 2000 or so. While I am never too static, a lot of my ideas were already formed by the time I began to read the Koran, and I was pretty half-assed about it until after 9/11. I got a little more curious thenLastGunSlinger seems confused.
LastGunSlinger says:
You mean like your god during the Exodus? LOL. Who is crazier, the crazy god, or the guy who worships the crazy god? Furthermore, who cares? I don't, about the crazy god, or his followers, so long as they don't try to make me follow their crazy god. Sword is far from crazy, and as far as God is concerned, He will not forget that remark!
LastGunSlinger says:
God of the Exodus was a schizophrenic. yes, very confused!
LastGunSlinger says:
I simply gave you some background so you could see that I am not ignorant about Christian Ways. I know scripture as well as anyone here I would bet Yes, you are, and no you don't!
LastGunSlinger says:
I am hostile towards Christianity because I have not met a follower of that religion who was not a hypocrite. All men are sinners, I am and even you are. Look in the mirror.
LastGunSlinger says:
I don't mean to insult anyone, really. I don't dislike someone automatically because they claim to be a christian, or anything like that.
I'm glad, and I forgive ya man!
LastGunSlinger says:
On a different note, I play the fiddle, and the mandolin, and the guitar. Nice to talk to some pickers and all.
Hey man, I'd love to jam with ya! when it comes to music I'll get down with anyone.... especially bluegrass cuz it's so..... friendly n fun! (and I've always been a straight ahead jazz/swing muso) And, cuz I'd love for other musicians, especially non-believers, to see that I am a Christian and I would like to set a proper example of what Christlike really is, even though I have a difficult time doing it sometimes.
Sorry I rang in a bit late here.... yes I do hope this ranting is over.
Dar, I just like music man!! I been playin professionally for 15 years from all styles... blues, jazz, reggae, R&B, and now bluegrass... I really love bluegrass because of its simplicity and jamability (if that's a word, lol) it's just REAL fun! I like it traditional as much as i like it complex! like i said it all swings soooo good!
swill269
02-28-2005, 17:28
:o
last gunslinger,
don't be bad mouthin' no chevy trucks. knock religion all you want, but DON'T knock a man's truck, damn. :ph34r:
swordslinger,
there are a few passages refering to incest, lot's daughters had rather do it than let humanity die. if you go for adam and eve you must figure incest in the pic somewhere. had to be a little going on upon the good ship "arch" if that story is to be believed. seems to me if it had not been for incest, christianity may not be here today.
incest is humanity's last ditch effort at survival. in germany there are two towns, ober-morlen and under-morlen, which go back to the futile wars era. under-morlen was a result of the in-breeding and today is still an asylum town.
the holier than thou christian is a disgusting creature. :eek:
:cool:
YourLocalNerd
02-28-2005, 17:43
Originally posted by swill269@Feb 28 2005, 08:28 PM
the holier than thou christian is a disgusting creature. :eek:
:cool:
I do believe that pretty much settles the "who is and who isn't" trolling issue ;)
swill269
02-28-2005, 18:01
:o
yourlocalnerd,
i do not see any trolling here, this is an open forum. "religion chit-chat" means just that to me. i did not see the "christians only " sign or the "no nonbelievers". :usa:
i see the kettle calling the pot black and visa versa. there is nothing intelligent about that. :rolleyes:
as bastardized as "christianity" is (no pun intended); the title of this forum is an oxymoron. :lol: :beer:
:cool:
now you are just being a jerk
darjeeling
02-28-2005, 18:46
Originally posted by swill269@Feb 28 2005, 06:01 PM
:o
yourlocalnerd,
i do not see any trolling here, this is an open forum. "religion chit-chat" means just that to me. i did not see the "christians only " sign or the "no nonbelievers". :usa:
i see the kettle calling the pot black and visa versa. there is nothing intelligent about that. :rolleyes:
as bastardized as "christianity" is (no pun intended); the title of this forum is an oxymoron. :lol: :beer:
:cool:
Agreed, up to a point. This is a forum where all matters pertaninig to religion go, and is open. Last Gunslinger is no troll, has posted in other forums and has been rather civil there. Many of the regulars here can come off overzealously and somewhat annoying. But this thread has been particularly uncivil. There is no point in having a discussion if everyone if all that is presented is ad hominems, epitets, black and white discussions, hyperbole and countless other logical fallicies along with poor manners and lack of civility. Humility and a touch of tolerance is nescisary for any level of civilized discussion about something as contentious, murky and diverse as religion. These qualities have been quite lacking in this thread in particular. Just because y'all disagree don't mean the discussion has to decend to diatribes and insults.
Oh yeah, and Chevy's are waaaay overhyped. They ain't bad, they just ain't as great as they are made up to be. It's all about the pentastar.
Swill, you are quite right about the bastardization of Christianity comment. It has been applied to things it has no place in. The further out Christendom creeps, the less meaningful much of what is said to be Christianity becomes.
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 19:19
Originally posted by swill269@Mar 1 2005, 01:28 AM
swordslinger,
there are a few passages refering to incest, lot's daughters had rather do it than let humanity die.* if you go for adam and eve you must figure incest in the pic somewhere.* had to be a little going on upon the good ship "arch" if that story is to be believed.* seems to me if it had not been for incest, christianity may not be here today.
incest is humanity's last ditch effort at survival.* in germany there are two towns, ober-morlen and under-morlen, which go back to the futile wars era.* under-morlen was a result of the in-breeding and today is still an asylum town.
The children born to Lot's daughter were cursed also. Ammon and Moab. You should really read it more if you insist on participating. That way you could make a point. ;) Those that read the Bible know where it is. Go read it. Incest from the standpoint you proposed with Adam and Eve can only be made if you put Adam and Eve here as the only people on earth. Their was a creation on the sixth day/age, man, and another on the eighth day/age, Adam, or Ha-Awawm or "The Adam". Same goes for the flood if you believe all man evolved from Noah's three sons. Ive said it before, go back if your interested. The ones that care to study it out have already done so, those that dont, dont. :)
The "holier than thou Christian" is no worse than the "smarter than thou athiest". Think about it! To me that is "disgusting" as well. ;)
Swordslinger
02-28-2005, 19:22
Originally posted by Tunug@Mar 1 2005, 01:03 AM
Wow! Let me say this first of all. My friend Swordslinger .....
Likewise Brother. ;) I didnt deserve any of that, but thankyou. :)
Hi you all,
Prov 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
You know when I first read this verse I thought the obvious... that if we mirror hostility then it will feed on itself and build. I did hear another teaching from this verse that the soft answer turns away wrath from within us so that we can keep the mind of Christ.
Another set of verses that came up in the Men's study this week were:
Prov 18:13 He who gives an answer before he hears, It is folly and shame to him.
Prov 19:2 Also it is not good for a person to be without knowledge, And he who hurries his footsteps errs.
In other words it would be wise to not answer hastily. Pray and see what answer the Lord gives.
Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
If people are truly seeking God He will let them find Him, and if they are seeking but only to hear what they want to hear then they will be as the rich young ruler.
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good* Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
17 So He said to him, *"Why do you call Me good? *No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to Him, "Which ones?"
Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,'* and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"*
20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept *from my youth. What do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
God doesn't debate... He commands, His soveriegnity is absolute.
People need to understand that they are going to be dead a lot longer than they will be alive in this life. It is called ETERNITY.
Where do YOU want to spend it?
Hey, what about us Jews??
I left an enormous terd in the middle of the room and everyone just stepped over it!!
So, what's the deal with converting Jews if Christianity is the one true religion? If we're all converted, how can we converge on Israel before the second coming? Sounds like a real problem.
Oh, and I like whoever wrote Rabbis and pedophelia in the same sentence. Umm, which religion has had problems with that lately? (To the tune of $650M.)
Lastly, if you ask me (and I know you're not), all LastGunSlinger wants is for everyone to "live and let live." It's no good when Chucky Schumer wants your guns but it's all good when people go after others for their beliefs.
-Stooxie
Hey, what about us Jews??
OK stoxie... This is from Isaiah 53. Are you familiar with this book?
This is a Messianic prophecy:
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And *they made His grave with the wicked--
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 *He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
and this is a Messianic prophecy, Psalm 2:
Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall *break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'"
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 *Kiss the Son, lest *He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
So I ask you how do you reconcile the very different descriptions?
Originally posted by cabdmd@Feb 28 2005, 09:02 PM
OK stoxie... This is from Isaiah 53. Are you familiar with this book?
This is a Messianic prophecy:
....
So I ask you how do you reconcile the very different descriptions?
I dunno. I didn't see anything in there to which I was referring.
How about this:
Jeremiah 23-3 (http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/jeremiah_23_3.htm)
Look, I have NO ability to quote scripture but I am curious as to whether or not this
presents a paradox. Then again, looking at the quotes, it's all open to intepretation.
-Stooxie
darjeeling
02-28-2005, 21:47
Originally posted by stooxie@Feb 28 2005, 08:40 PM
...
Oh, and I like whoever wrote Rabbis and pedophelia in the same sentence. Umm, which religion has had problems with that lately? (To the tune of $650M.)
...
-Stooxie
Hey! It's unfair to characterize Christianity by the Catholics :lol: .
Sorry, its the Lutheran in me. Carry on.
Stoxie
Jer 23:1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the Lord. 2 Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the Lord. 3 "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
You have to put scripture in context.
I had just finished reading Jeremiah. The verses were describing the false prophets who said to not listen to Jeremiah's doom and gloom and that the captivity that he spoke of from the Lord was not going to take place... well it did. Nebuchadnezzer came and laid siege to the city until it fell, he then carried away the captives for 70 years. Later during the captivity Daniel was reading Jeremiah and understood that the time was about up.
Isaiah 45
"Thus says the Lord to His anointed,
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held--
To subdue nations before him
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:
2 'I will go before you
And make the *crooked places straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the Lord,
Who call you by your name,
Am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.'
Isaiah wrote about Cyrus 176 YEARS before Cyrus was shown the writing.
He did let the people go back. Read Nehemiah about the captives going back to rebuild the temple.
Swordslinger
03-01-2005, 06:07
Originally posted by stooxie@Mar 1 2005, 04:40 AM
Hey, what about us Jews??
I answer this to you, only so you can no longer say you are being stepped over. :)
John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
There is your answer, no special ticket to get around the gate. ;)
Oh...and that reference to the talmud was Sanhedrin 54b :)
Here is some more for you stoxie.
Jn1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His *own, and His *own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
We are made spirit, soul and body, but while the body will die the spirit goes on forever. Where do you want to spend eternity?
Isa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Luk 12:4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
2Jn1:9 Whoever *transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
swill269
03-01-2005, 07:21
:o
tunug,
now you are just being a jerk
i suppose your'e not? what kind of "christian" are you then? :ph34r:
swordslinger,
you can warp the "word" to fit your needs at will, but it still does not make it "truth". christianity is the the most over rated religion and least understood for a reason. too many folks "tailor" it to their personal "opinion" and then swear it is the gospel. all religions are man made and promoted by him as well.
well, i have enough intelligence to know when someone is "blowing smoke" and passing it off as TRUTH.
i have no problems with anyone's "belief" until they start pointing fingers at those which do not believe. i have not read or heard anything here or elsewhere to convince me christianity is the answer/truth.
the moment a "christian" condemns or insults the nonbelievers; i begin to question their authenticity and motives as a "christian". i don't think of zealots as "jerks, fools, idiots, stupid, etc.; but rather like excited children with a new toy.
cabdmd,
i have a great respect for your approach to the subject. your calm, collected replies are most welcome in my domain. they give insight as to where you are coming from and why. the other replies are welcomed also but with a degree of hesitancy. i had rather read/listen and "absorb" than take offence to an offensive statement.
i have a choice: get along or get out. i have not posted much here in the last weeks because there has been nothing NEW to post about and there still is nothing. however, to see the "christians" bristle up and throw stones does nothing but lower my opinion of the christian's motives.
steve
Swordslinger
03-01-2005, 09:30
Originally posted by swill269@Mar 1 2005, 03:21 PM
the moment a "christian" condemns or insults the nonbelievers; i begin to question their authenticity and motives as a "christian".
Christ said:
Matthew 12:34 " O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."
Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
John the Bapist, the one of whom Christ said no better man was ever born of a woman than he...
Luke 3:7 "Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"
Matthew 3:7 "........ O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"
Are those insults? I have have said nothing compared to that, and thats only a small sample.
We as Christian are not to sit back with our hands folded and let Satan and his little children brow beat other Christians with your so called intelectualism and be treated as second class citizens. We are instead instructed to....
2nd Timothy 2:4
2.."preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
I need to work on the patience part. :)
First Peter 3:15
" 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;"
I need to work on the "gentleness" part, but that was exhibited in LARGE quanities before in previous threads. I do not mean to offend you. Simply defend against you. Those that dont want to hear, shouldnt ask.
As far as useing the Word of God to fit my will, well....someone without a working knowledge of what I'm speaking of wouldnt know one way or the other, would they? I challenge you to go through the context to see if I have done that. That seems to be the only defense some folks can come up with, is "your quoting out of context" or "what does the original language say", but when someone comes along with a working knowledge of both, no appologies are ever made, ever. Do you know how many times it has been said to me right here that I've taken something out of context, or applied my own interpretation to a scripture, but the acuser NEVER checks to back up what he is saying. Just makes an accusation, then moves on. Really dosnt show much intelect for those that claim to be so dang smart, compared to the "weak minded" (says you and some of your helpers), Just try to count them. ;)
This little area is a joke!! This sub-forum is designed so that everyone can come in a take turns bashing Christians. Not me bubba!!! If only a fraction of what was said here about Christians was said about jews, or anyone else, the crys of anti-semitism would ring across the web. But since you instead pick on the Christians, most of whom think they are commanded to take it, and act like second class citizens, its all OKEEDOKEE!! Sheep,( I am speaking to His now) you had better wake up. ;)
Swordslinger
03-01-2005, 09:36
This thread is dead as far as I'm concerned. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/icon_smile_dead.gif
swill269
03-01-2005, 10:21
:o
swordslinger,
i have defended your "scriptured" answers in the past and see nothing wrong with them now. however, folks want to hear what you say, not some cataloged, researched, script you dictate from.
basicly your answer to everything is "cause god said so".
this forum is not a pulpit for christianity, but rather a gathering of the minds to logically express their views/ideas/philosophies/values/religions. biblical scripture becomes no more than "babbling" when it is thrown in your face as the evidence of "TRUTH". it is like answering your history teacher with "historical" cliches. she/he might get the message but nobody else does.
" 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;" i hear you screaming this and at the same time i read the line above it 2.."preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. i can not help but think "provoke", reprove, rebuke, exhort. even you agree patience is a virtue you may be lacking in some small way.
tunug,
IMHO, your patience are thinner than swordslinger's.
steve
Hey swill,
we Christians have a phrase whereby we want to be a 'good witness'; in other words, we want to be what we can be to further the gospel. however we are all sinners and will fail. The only One who will not is Jesus. That is where we all should look. The rest of us fall far short. Earlier in this thread someone alluded to the fact that Christians were all hypocrites so why would I want to be one. The truth is everyone is a hypocrite. If anyone examines themselves they will find more shortcomings than they would want.
Originally posted by swill269@Mar 1 2005, 01:21 PM
IMHO, your patience are thinner than swordslinger's.
steve
Swill you are right, and maybe I can make this subforum a little more enjoyable for you. Swill, you are sooooo cute, so cute in fact that I love you in the name of Jesus! I love the way you say IMHO; it's cute that you think you have humble opinions, bless your heart! Ya know what? God loves you tooooo! Even though you deny Him, He still loves you!!! I know you like to make it difficult for us to love you, but I bet we'll all try!! So, stick around and let us love you to death, k Swill? I hope you feel better now, Swill. I sure do!!! :confused:
Wow! I actually feel better after that! SEE!!! even folks like Swill in a strange way are teaching us how to be better CHRISTIANS!!! Thanks everybody for helping us learn from our mistakes!! YAAAAYYY!! :D
swill269
03-01-2005, 13:13
:o
cabdmd,
it is the "witness/convert" mission of the christians that causes ploblems. some things you just don't peddle. if someone comes to you for "goods" it is different.
tunug,
i don't know what to make of your little outburst, especially the part about stick around and let us love you to death the "h" in IMHO could only mean "honest" then since i am not humble in your eyes. i remain as polite as my company. :ph34r:
man you are freaky when you get geaky. :eek:
:cool:
it is the "witness/convert" mission of the christians that causes ploblems. some things you just don't peddle. if someone comes to you for "goods" it is different.
Absolutely right, it is our actions, the way we live our lives that is supposed to make people say "what's different about you, I want that too."
Swordslinger
03-01-2005, 13:55
Originally posted by swill269@Mar 1 2005, 06:21 PM
:o
swordslinger,
i have defended your "scriptured" answers in the past and see nothing wrong with them now. however, folks want to hear what you say, not some cataloged, researched, script you dictate from.
I have no need for defence from others by you. :lol: You only come here to babble and argue. You guys (you know who you are) are used to kicking around Christians who wont kick back. When you get one who does, you get all bent out of shape. Dont get mad, its just the internet. ;)
Steve, would you show me where I've read from a reseached script? Other than my knowledge formed over years from study? If that what you are reffering to, then your doing the same thing. I admit, that I sit back and watch you guys dance around the Christians waving bones over your head, like a bunch of headhunters who wish to eat the ones delivering them the Christian TRUTH, that sometimes I have to butt in and give you my two cents. I should be more patient, I know that, so pray for me, will ya. ;) But its MY two cents!!! If anything I've held back as to "season my speach with salt". :ph34r: :)
BTW, I'm still waiting for you to show me where I've quoted out of context, ANYWHERE!!! Or, made up my own translations, perverted the languages, and now I'll add reading from a "cataloged script". If you (any of you) cant back up your claims and accusations, you should be polite enough to not make them. :)
swill269
03-01-2005, 13:57
:o
cabdmd,
agreed, your actions should make me want a better way of life; not your preaching, witnessing when it is not solicited. what you are doing is threatening souls with hell if they don't accept christ. i have said before, "you do not have to know god to be good." to threaten someone into submission does not seem good to me. sorry, i just don't get it. :(
i am a better human being than most of the christians i know and know about. :ph34r:
steve
swill269
03-01-2005, 14:28
:o
darjeeling,
you are right, chevies are over-hyped. that is why i drive an old 77 el camino and 85 454 duallie. they are old and proven. "pentastar", is that a bed liner? :lol: :beer:
:cool:
darjeeling
03-01-2005, 16:35
Pentastar refers to Mopar products (chrysler, dodge, plymouth. The mopar symbol is a 5 pointed star with *very narrow* points), and this (for me) refers mostly to the cars. I've got a 70' Challenger, and my brother has a 68 Charger. But on the subjects of trucks, my dad has had a contracting buisness for some 45 years. He has had some of the worst drivers on this side of the rio grande behind the wheel of his company trucks. He never had problems with Internationals, Fords, or Dodges, but they'd go through Chevys and GMCs in 75,000-100,000 miles. These were hard miles, but FoMoCo and Mopar did better than the Generals Motors in this rather informal test (of course, who can compare with the old International pickups? No-one!).
dakota kid
03-01-2005, 16:44
wow, yawn, reading scripture is just like listening to it, I tune it out.....
But as the topic questions us, Is christianity the one true religion? the answer is NO, everyone knows satan tells me the real truth. he whispers it in my ear.
ahh yes nothing like the sweet temptations of this earthly paradise
what you are doing is threatening souls with hell if they don't accept christ. i have said before, "you do not have to know god to be good." to threaten someone into submission does not seem good to me. sorry, i just don't get it.
Steve,
I am not threatening anyone. I'm explaining the Biblical position, which states that no man can be good enough. That's why to get to heaven you need a Savior. For those who choose not to accept this it is their choice.
Eat drink and be merry...
dakota kid
03-01-2005, 17:38
ok maybe the satan thing is missleading and i should correct myself before i get crap about it i do not need, i could care less about satan and jesus,
Its just the classic story of good vs evil with morals
to me the bible is just a book with ethical codes and laws to keep people in check.
and if i am wrong and do end up going to hell, well i will have had lots of practice being that i am a wildland fire fighter in the summer months
I think that modern day religions have severly disrupted the world (wel like they did not in the past)
Last Gunslinger
03-02-2005, 07:45
Uh-oh, now I have ****ed off the wrong folks. :( Look here:
I drive a chevy truck, I did not mean to come across as knocking them. ;) Mine has been great, and I am a farmer, I put it thru the mill regularly. In fact, all three of our farm trucks are Chevys.
If I am going to hell, just for not believing that Jesus is the only way to heaven, I'll be sure and hold the door for ya'll who walked to far on Friday nights, since Jesus came not to destroy the law. LOL. Those little camo folding chairs from Walmart look like a deal now, don't they?
swill269
03-02-2005, 07:58
darjeeling,
i was just being a butt when i asked about pentastar. trucks are like people i guess, some make it and some don't. the brand really does not matter.
steve
Last Gunslinger
03-02-2005, 12:25
I really hate to CPR this thread, but I feel obligated to respond since several statements were made bastardizing my quotes.
In a post by Tunug, he said:
LastGunSlinger said:
*
I am hostile towards Christianity because I have not met a follower of that religion who was not a hypocrite.
Yes, we could tell by the way you rebuked us all by your first words, way before you actually stated this. Although, it is not fair to judge all Christians based on the actions of a few bad men who use Christianity as an excuse to do bad things, you do.
I'd say its not fair to judge all Muslims based on the actions of a few bad men who use it as an excuse to do bad things, but you don't seem to have any problem doing that. This double standard was what I was first pointing out, that so enraged the Jesus freaks that their vision was blurred and their reading skills suffered greatly. Why don't you show me where I was hostile in my very first post on this thread. You seem to not have any problem cutting and pasting quotes from my posts to critique, so why not cite a source? I think its because I didn't get hostile until I was told to stop being a heretic or leave.
The last terrorist to attack my home state of Alabama was not a Islamist fanatic, but a Christian fanatic. He killed in praise of Almighty God of the Bible, not of Allah. And while the religious right in this country doesn't give outright support of him, some people from that part of the political spectrum certainly do, because they helped him hide when he fled Bin Laden style to the NC mountains to shelter amongst religious nuts like himself. Which brings up another point. IMO, if you don't support Eric Rudloph's religiously motivated terrorist attacks, and yet you honestly feel that a million "babies" a year are murdered by abortion, you are no better than the Germans who smelled Dachau and didn't do anything about it.
Then, someone replies to LastGunSlinger like this: "Let me understand what your saying here Gun Slinger. Are you saying that I (as an American Christian) am a hypocrite b/c I do say that all abortion is murder, and yet I don't go out and kill abortion doctors?"
LastGunSlinger's reply:
That is exactly what I am saying.*
LastGunSlinger says it is wrong to kill in the name of God, but then he says Christians are hypocrites if they do not. LastGunSlinger is now contradicting himrself.
How am I contradicting myself? My argument goes as follows:
If you believe that abortion is murder, and one million babies are murdered in the United States each year, and you do not support Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, and others who use any means necessary to end the murder of one million of their fellow Americans each year, then you are no better than the Germans who knew about Dachau and did not try to stop it. You are in fact, worse, because the German government at the time was facilitating to these murders, and the people of Germany had been disarmed. If you don't support Rudolph, who acted to save the lives of the murdered innocents, then you are a coward. If you do support him, you can't say that Almighty God doesn't drink blood. That is all I said, and I stand by it. If you want to avoid this unpleasant position of being a coward or a hypocrite, don't base your beliefs on the falsehood that started this whole sticky situtation: Abortion is murder.
I know I don't believe that, and so, I can sleep at night, firm in my belief that the current law correctly protects the rights of the Individual, the preganant woman citizen of the United States to own her private property, her body, in this case, her womb per the 9th Amendment.
However, if I thought over a million of my fellow citizens were being murdered every year, and I did not use any means necessary to stop it, I'd be a coward, and I'd have to slit open my stomach out of shame. I mean, if protecting the citizens from the government wasn't the basis for the 2nd Amendment, what was?
Luckily for me, and for the United States, fetuses aren't citizens!! They aren't even individuals, so they don't have individual rights. But their mothers sure do. So if I am to err, I will err on the side of preserving the liberties of a citizen of the United States, and am quite confident in the legalities of doing so. And I sleep great at night knowing that my stance on this issue is right, and correct.
And for the record I also left open another possiblity when I said:
If your argument is that when the New Covenant was made, the old homo-killing law was no longer in effect, you might have a point (but Rudolph would be left holding a smelly bag). If your argument is that God of the Bible doesn't tell people to kill people, you are sadly mistaken, because he does just that, several times.
I guess you overlooked this. Good thing I remembered it, huh? :rolleyes:
LastGunSlinger seems to be the authority on who God is and what is the nature of God here:
I believe in a Creator. I think the Creator set the big bang in motion, the universe exploded, and where she went after that, I have no idea. I don't think she can hear us, I don't think she can see us, at least not individually. Does she care for us? Who knows? I am a farmer, I like to kinda think of her like that. I like to think she looks in this direction sometime, to see if what she sowed looks healthy, looks like its is thriving. I think if she looked too closely at earth, she wouldn't be very pleased. I don't think she knows each of us personally, or how many hairs we have on our heads.
Look, there is only one God and only one truth. Just because many people believe in many different things, that does not mean that there is many truths. There are only many lies. There is only one truth.
Where do you see me presenting myself as an authority? I clearly state that my beliefs are mine, and might not work for you. You are the one who insists that it is your god's way or the highway- to hell. So who is the arrogant authority? :o I think its you!
If someone finally finds the truth which is the same truth that others believe in, it is only because they have dilligently searched for it, not because they are lazy, brainwashed, and weakminded.
Wow! Talk about contradictory logic. A billion Red Chinese can't be wrong, huh?
LastGunSlinger got it partially right when he said:
Jesus said, he was the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. I just want to remind everyone that the way is the way, and not the destiniation. You behave in Jesus Way, love your neighbor as yourself, to get to the destination, grace.
But you don't seem to believe Jesus at all or follow his teachings.
I told you exactly which tenants of Jesus I believed in, at least twice. I can't make it much plainer than that, pal.
since you asked, I am often, f***ing hostile. Especially when people tell me to be quiet or leave. It is my nature.
We asked you to stop being hostile or leave! You have been hostile since your first words in this subforum.
Again, I ask you to show me where I was hostile before I was told to shut up or leave. If you can, I will gladly apologize. If not, stop lying. Is that too mcuh to ask from a good Christian fellow?
Sometimes I really like the Hindu idea that the universe is in Gan's navel. Time/Space is shaped like a bowl, that could make sense, if Gan has an innie.... I try to follow the Way of the Samurai, which for the most part is to make a decision, don't second guess everything all the time. Make up your mind in seven breaths then act, and follow through. I prolly take the least amount of influence from Islam, it is relatively new to me, I have only been studying it since 2000 or so. While I am never too static, a lot of my ideas were already formed by the time I began to read the Koran, and I was pretty half-assed about it until after 9/11. I got a little more curious then
LastGunSlinger seems confused.
What about that confuses you, bud? I thought it was pretty straight forward myself. Tell me, have you read the Hagakure, or the Koran, or the Jewish texts, or The Book of Five Rings, or did you just stop at the Bible? Maybe that is the difference between us, and you can just plead ignorance.
darjeeling says-
Last Gunslinger is no troll, has posted in other forums and has been rather civil there.* :P
And thank you sir, for noticing. Screaming "Troll!" seems to be SOP around here for some.
I hope this thread is just about thrashing its last, I've been hearing it wheeze and gurgle for a while.
The thread "ain't" over until the fat lady sings and I haven't heard her yet. Opinions are like rear ends, we all have one and some get bent out of shape in the relating.
Here's mine: Religion is a private personal thing and I don't believe in boring you with mine because stirring controversy is not one of my habits. Religion is. Were there nothing else of interest in religion, it is the guide for ethics which civilized people need to fit into society.
I also believe religion doesn't really belong on a gun forum as from reading the different posts it is evident that an occasional looney tunes has to get in and stir and insult which we might call "showing his rear end" or lack of depth on the subject.
So, as Chief Joseph once said, "I have spoken"! Don't get your drawers all knotted up over it. :cool:
That's why I created a Religion Chit Chat area. So people who want to debate or preach to the choir CAN, while those who wish to avoid it can stay out.
Personally I'm agnostic, and when this thread started, I said "Oh NO", but now that there is read debate and mud slinging, I sorta like it. LOL
Swordslinger
03-02-2005, 16:40
Originally posted by Bill@Mar 2 2005, 10:29 PM
That's why I created a Religion Chit Chat area. So people who want to debate or preach to the choir CAN, while those who wish to avoid it can stay out.
Personally I'm agnostic, and when this thread started, I said "Oh NO", but now that there is read debate and mud slinging, I sorta like it. LOL
The "great" devisive one speaks!! :lol: Maybe with a statement like that, folks here can see your true colors. ;) Those that havnt already, however few they may be.
Last Gunslinger
03-03-2005, 08:56
LOL, yeah, that is really disgusting that you would promote healthy debate, Bill. Where do you get off with your liberal views? ;)
Big Gay Al
03-05-2005, 02:13
In my humble opinion, we'll NEVER know which religion is the "one true Religion" until we die. Until that day, when we finally meet our maker (or not) it will continue to be a mystery.
Yes, some of us will insist that Christianity IS the one true religion. But I have to ask then, WHICH version of Christianity? Catholic? Methodist? Baptist? Mormon???
Somehow, I think each of us will be VERY surprised when we finally discover the true answer.
But that's just my humble opinion. ;)
Swordslinger
03-05-2005, 08:24
Good grief, who opened the gate? http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/icon_smile_dead.gif
Last Gunslinger
03-06-2005, 15:08
You mean the gate to intelligent thought? :lol: I hope it was me. I went to Big Gay AL's home page, and found another shining example of Christ's love in the spirit of your God, swordslinger. Take a look at The Westboro Baptist Church's homepage (http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html). This is under a link on the Michigan chapter of the Pink Pistols web page that is to show gay, lesbian, etc. peple a good reason to CCW up. I couldn't agree more. This is the same kind of hateful religious sh** that the Sudanese put forth to keep the janjaweed wanting to kill and rape. This website keeps a running total of how many days Matthew Shepard, murdered for being a homosexual, has been in hell, presumably for being murdered before he repented for his sin of being gay. Here they are with signs in hand, thanking God for 9/11, which apparently they think was good because some homosexuals are among the dead. http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2004/WTC2_7-4-2004.jpg Also they thank their bloodthirsty god for the tsunami, because it killed not only idolators, but also 20,000 Swedes, which they hate because they are tolerant of homosexuals, and also 3,000 Americans. Here is a bit of the lovely imagery they evoke:
20,000 dead Swedes is to Sweden's population of 9 million as 650,000 would be to America's 290 million population. We sincerely hope and pray that all 20,000 Swedes are dead, their bodies bloated on the ground or in mass graves or floating at sea feeding sharks and fishes or in the bellies of thousands of crocodiles washed ashore by tsunamis. These filthy, faggot Swedes have a satanic, draconian law criminalizing Gospel preaching, under which they prosecuted, convicted and sentenced Pastor Ake Green to jail - thereby incurring God's irreversible wrath: "He suffered no man to do them wrong; yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." Psa. 105:14,15. America, who is awash in diseased fag feces & semen, and is an apostate land of the sodomite damned. Let us pray that God will send a massive Tsunami to totally devastate the North American continent with 1000-foot walls of water doing 500 mph -- even as islands in southern Asia have recently been laid waste, with but a small remnant surviving. And you wonder if this is the wrath of God?
Underlined text is my highlights.
I thought God promised not to destroy the world with water again, hence rainbows. I guess now that homosexuals use rainbows symbolically like Christians use fish, God decided that promise was forfeit, and he'd show us who was boss.
If anyone is in Kansas, go by and **** on this church's altar for me. I'll do it myself when I get up that way, but it might be a while.
oooh, then I found this, at their sister site, godhatesamerica.com
Here is the text:
This is the picture that America deserves. Get used to it! You worship at the fag altar, you get boxes draped in your fag flag coming home!
here is the image:http://www.godhatesamerica.com/images/deadamericans.jpg
Swordslinger
03-06-2005, 16:19
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Mar 6 2005, 11:08 PM
You mean the gate to intelligent thought?
Im sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I meant the gate of sexual perversion. Of which, you seem to have been the first one out. ;) All of the things you hate about The God whom you are so adamently against, I LOVE!!! :)
Psalms 97:10
"Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked."
I think I'll take the Word of God over yours. ;)
YourLocalNerd
03-06-2005, 16:30
GunSlinger bud, it is obvious that you are here only to keep on banging home what you call a point. Man I and others have explained to you that YES there are psuedo christians that call for many many many wrong doings under the name of god. You can't judge a book by its cover. You see what you want to see. You tell me that all muslims aren't bad and that it is just the extremists; well I agree with you. When you say that all Christians are bad and hypocrites and then I and again others give you evidence to the opposite you won't listen. You are hell bent on "proving" that all Christians are evil and hypocrites. If you want to live in small minded ignorance, go for it.
I am not trying to force you into being a Christian; you don't want it that is fine cuz it isnt my problem, only yours. Does my heart break for your ignorance? Yes it does. Do I pray for you? Again, yes I do; daily as a matter of fact. Aside from that, cya bro...I ain't casting anymore pearls before swine.
Big Gay Al
03-06-2005, 16:40
Originally posted by Swordslinger+Mar 6 2005, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Mar 6 2005, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Last Gunslinger@Mar 6 2005, 11:08 PM
You mean the gate to intelligent thought?
Im sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I meant the gate of sexual perversion. Of which, you seem to have been the first one out. ;) All of the things you hate about The God whom you are so adamently against, I LOVE!!! :)
Psalms 97:10
"Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked."
I think I'll take the Word of God over yours. ;) [/b][/quote]
The gate of sexual perversion, as you refer to it, was opened by man himself many centuries ago. It was never closed. Some might wonder if it should have been. What some see as sexual perversion, others see as sexual freedom.
Just as I tell those against gun ownership, "If you don't want to own a gun, that is your choice, but don't take my choice away from me." I think it can also apply to other things as well.
If you don't like what's on TV, fine, don't watch it. But don't try to tell me what I should or should not watch.
If you don't like to read Shakespeare, fine, but don't tell me I can't.
I would also tell you to stay out of my bedroom. What I do in the privacy of my own home is my business, and no one else. It doesn't matter if I'm straight or Gay, I'd tell you the same thing in either case.
I often marvel that God gave man the ability for free thought, yet man-made religion always tries to harness free thought into something controlable, something "perverted" if you will.
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Mar 3 2005, 08:56 AM
LOL, yeah, that is really disgusting that you would promote healthy debate, Bill. Where do you get off with your liberal views? ;)
Well, the only thing better to watch than mud slinging is female mud wrestling.
Ooops, off topic.
Swordslinger
03-06-2005, 18:08
Originally posted by Big Gay Al@Mar 7 2005, 12:40 AM
The gate of sexual perversion, as you refer to it, was opened by man himself many centuries ago. It was never closed. Some might wonder if it should have been. What some see as sexual perversion, others see as sexual freedom.
Your are right, it was "opened" by man, and man alone. As far as what is, and what is not perversion? Well, one just has to imagine where homosexuals put their private parts in other homosexuals to get a grasp on whether or not its perversion. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/869127/anim_puke.gifOne just has to look back into history to see what the condoning of homosexuality has done to the great Empires of the past.
It even has acomplished the perversion of the english language. The word "gay" was a perfectly good anglo-saxon word that decribed a feeling of happiness, and joy. People used to name thier daughters Gay. They dont do that anymore. :( Now look what its turned into, a symbol of perversion.
What you call freedom, I call perversion. To each his own. :)
Your right, man opened that gate, and God is gonna close it!! Again!!!
It might be a good idea to repent, since you dont know when that will be. :)
I think that many posts are now off topic. If you all want to go onto another tangent like this I think that's ok for this forum or general chit chat, but it really ought to have it's own thread.
I think it is darn near impossible to stay on topic when we have hell bent saboteurs derialing our topics for the sake of invoking strife and anger. This is called trolling and flaming in all the other forums, but it is tolerated and encouraged by the owner. Bill, which other of your subforums do you love to see the "mud sling"? No need to answer because we know. It's is only this forum where you enjoy to see fighting. This is sadly why PU has become less enjoyable to visit than it used to be.
Originally posted by cabdmd@Mar 6 2005, 08:11 PM
I think that many posts are now off topic. If you all want to go onto another tangent like this I think that's ok for this forum or general chit chat, but it really ought to have it's own thread.
Dude, this is religion Chit Chat.
People here dish out their God to everyone every week, in this forum. If you can't take people disagreeing, then go find a place where everyone pats themselves on the back for being all part of the same church.
darjeeling
03-06-2005, 23:42
Originally posted by Bill+Mar 6 2005, 11:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bill @ Mar 6 2005, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-cabdmd@Mar 6 2005, 08:11 PM
I think that many posts are now off topic. If you all want to go onto another tangent like this I think that's ok for this forum or general chit chat, but it really ought to have it's own thread.
Dude, this is religeon Chit Chat.
People here dish out their God to everyone every week, in this forum. If you can't take people disagreeing, then go find a place where everyone pats themselves on the back for being all part of the same church. [/b][/quote]
True. But the discussion should be in lines with the bare minimum of civility. Y'all are better than whats been happening in this thread.
Originally posted by Tunug@Mar 6 2005, 08:54 PM
I think it is darn near impossible to stay on topic when we have hell bent saboteurs derialing our topics for the sake of invoking strife and anger. This is called trolling and flaming in all the other forums, but it is tolerated and encouraged by the owner. Bill, which other of your subforums do you love to see the "mud sling"? No need to answer because we know. It's is only this forum where you enjoy to see fighting. This is sadly why PU has become less enjoyable to visit than it used to be.
Tunug-
Can't you take a joke?
I created this forum because the mud slinging was scaring people out of the rest of the site.
I had two choices
(1) create a place where the debate could continue and those who don't want to see it could avoid it.
(2) Outlaw it.
Did you think I created this forum so only Christians could have Bible discussion? If you would like that, go create a BBS or YahooGroup and have a nice quiet Sunday School atmosphere, it's no skin off my back.
The question was "Is Christianity the One True Religion?", and it's led us in lots of different areas. Consistently I see that some of the more devout Christians are offended by thoughts and ideas that our outside their beliefs, and I see that others are offended by some of the statements of the devout Christians. I use the word devout to try and show some respect, although Jews and Muslims with the same strict beliefs are called "hardliners" or "fundamentalists" and those two words are becoming negative in recent years.
YES I love mud slinging. It's a lot better than listening to the choir preach to each other.
You don't like it? Don't read the forum. If you dislike my ownership of the place so much, then leave. This place probably isn't good for your blood pressure.
Originally posted by darjeeling+Mar 6 2005, 11:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (darjeeling @ Mar 6 2005, 11:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Bill@Mar 6 2005, 11:37 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-cabdmd@Mar 6 2005, 08:11 PM
I think that many posts are now off topic. If you all want to go onto another tangent like this I think that's ok for this forum or general chit chat, but it really ought to have it's own thread.
Dude, this is religeon Chit Chat.
People here dish out their God to everyone every week, in this forum. If you can't take people disagreeing, then go find a place where everyone pats themselves on the back for being all part of the same church.
True. But the discussion should be in lines with the bare minimum of civility. Y'all are better than whats been happening in this thread. [/b][/quote]
I think we do have the bare minimum of civility. Meaning, it's at a minimum.
Not ~really~ sure which posts people are most offended by. I mean, it seems that the most offensive posts are the ones showing how many so-called Christians are really not very Christian at all, specifically that Westboro Baptist Church.
If printing quotes from a Christian Church is offensive...
Or which post was it exactly?
Here I go, been trying to not post here but cannot resist any longer. I belive that Christianity is the one true faith. What people pass off on tv and the web is not what christianity is all about. It is about truth and how that is applied to our relationship with God. It is not about hating those who do not beleive or follow Christ. I don't attack Big Al for what he beleives in and I have never had him attack my for my beleifs. If Bill disagrees with me that is fine. What matters is that people are given a choice. Freedom to choose. If I tell someone about my faith and they disagree that is fine. I am not responsible for their soul. When the church wakes up and realize that we have been going aout it all wrong, the world will be a better place. No where in scriptures do we see Christ, Peter, or Paul pound the gospel down the throats of non-beleivers. They spoke the gospel then they left it up to God do the work. The people that the apostles and even Christ had the most problems with were the religeous ones. That is because the religous ones loved power. Last night they had an expose on Benny Hinn. He will call it an attack from Satan but I will call it an attack on the stupid and unrighteous. If you cannot be accountable for what you are doing in the name of God, then there is a big problem. If he would read the Bible, he find out that what he is doing has nothing to do with the Gospel. He is worse than the most rebellous pagan. I would rather deal with non belevers than with him. Not all who profess Christianity will be accepted into his arms. We are told narrow is the gate. We are told that those who profess and tell of thier own works in his name will be sent away. They are no more saved than the worst offender. If we have not love, we are like sounding brass. If we show not mercy, how can we expect to receive it?
They spoke the gospel then they left it up to God do the work.
amen to that
1Cr 3:6
He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?
swill269
03-12-2005, 14:40
:o
R-E-S-P-E-C-T ;)
:cool:
i started to open my dumb mouth and become a new target for both sides....but decided to to go to cci and shoot canned p-dogs. but first, to quote a famous black motorist, cain't we all jest get along?
jim :o
I find this quite amusing that non-christians are so disgusted with the bible quotes and the topics....
The day comes when God will call his people. The Play-Book is written. You either side with the winning team or gamble on an alternate.
Seriously, I don't think SwordSlinger cares if your gay or not. Sure, he would feel better if you loved God.
But in the end, Its all between YOU and GOD.
so, put your chips where you may.
mine are right next to swordslingers'
keep on preachin bro, maybe you'll hit one home.
-Brent
P.S. "Sword Slinger" doesn't have an underlying meaning to the Knights-Of-Columbus does it? I and currently a 2nd degree.
Big Gay Al
03-12-2005, 23:44
Originally posted by jlyent@Mar 12 2005, 06:55 PM
i started to open my dumb mouth and become a new target for both sides....but decided to to go to cci and shoot canned p-dogs. but first, to quote a famous black motorist, cain't we all jest get along?
jim :o
Aww, go on, open your mouth. :D
Me, I bought a new gun instead of opening mine. B)
I got a Para-Ordnance P13.45. It's real nice, came with 2x13 round mags and 1x10 round mag. Talk about heavy! When she's fully loaded, you know it!!
As for the rest of this conversation, I have a feeling that MANY people are going to be surprised when they go to their final reward. I am sure that it will not be what ANYONE expects, including myself.
But you know what Forrest Gump said, "Life is like a box of chocolates."
God is coming back and he will obliterate what he defines as evil. Hell is not a very good place to spend eternity. I sure wouldn't want to be there. And I do know what my final reward is because the Bible tells me.
Last Gunslinger
03-14-2005, 16:01
God is coming back and he will obliterate what he defines as evil. Hell is not a very good place to spend eternity. I sure wouldn't want to be there. And I do know what my final reward is because the Bible tells me.
If its the woman and fag-hating god, draw him a map to my place and tell him he better bring better help than the AK wielding Toyota driving morons he used to do do his work in Afghanistan. If heaven is a place controlled by such a being, he can keep that sh**. And you don't know diddly. You think you know, you have faith (like Bush did in his pre-war intelligence), but no one KNOWS. The fact that so-called Christians can't accept that they do not know, is proof enough for me that the rest of their delusions can be easily ignored.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. Do I know that? Nope. Do I believe it? Damn straight.
ice-nine
03-16-2005, 09:37
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Mar 14 2005, 04:01 PM
God is coming back and he will obliterate what he defines as evil. Hell is not a very good place to spend eternity. I sure wouldn't want to be there. And I do know what my final reward is because the Bible tells me.
If its the woman and fag-hating god, draw him a map to my place and tell him he better bring better help than the AK wielding Toyota driving morons he used to do do his work in Afghanistan. If heaven is a place controlled by such a being, he can keep that sh**. And you don't know diddly. You think you know, you have faith (like Bush did in his pre-war intelligence), but no one KNOWS. The fact that so-called Christians can't accept that they do not know, is proof enough for me that the rest of their delusions can be easily ignored.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. Do I know that? Nope. Do I believe it? Damn straight.
Choice?
ice-nine-
What the hell was that response all about?
Last Glunslinger didn't mention "choice" (as in abortion choice) at all.
Quit trolling. And what's the purpose of introducing pictures of fetuses? Is abortion an Christian-only issue? If you think so, then you are misguided.
Gunslinger-
Don't escalate this to bashing and beyond. Keep it civil (you can attack religion without blowing a gasket).
Thanks, all.
ice-nine
03-16-2005, 11:30
Originally posted by Bill@Mar 16 2005, 10:19 AM
ice-nine-
What the hell was that response all about?
Last Glunslinger didn't mention "choice" (as in abortion choice) at all.
Quit trolling. And what's the purpose of introducing pictures of fetuses? Is abortion an Christian-only issue? If you think so, then you are misguided.
Gunslinger-
Don't escalate this to bashing and beyond. Keep it civil (you can attack religion without blowing a gasket).
Thanks, all.
Bill,
It's your bar.
That being said have you read these posts?
http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.p...pic=14478&st=15 (http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14478&st=15)
Last Gunslinger Posted: Mar 13 2005, 10:13 AM - "I don't vote for anti-choice candidates." Chitchat
Last Gunslinger Posted: Mar 14 2005, 12:45 PM - "Unfortunately the only box that I have that I can defend my sister and mother and girlfriend's right to choose, is the ballot box." Chitchat
http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.p...topic=13383&hl= (http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13383&hl=)
Last Gunslinger Posted on: Mar 14 2005, 04:01 PM "If its the woman and fag-hating god ..." (Just a variation on a theme)
Last Gunslinger Posted on: Mar 2 2005, 12:25 PM "If you believe that abortion is murder, and one million babies are murdered in the United States each year, and you do not support Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, and others who use any means necessary to end the murder of one million of their fellow Americans each year, then you are no better than the Germans who knew about Dachau and did not try to stop it."
I choose the religion section to respond because I thought it would be less offensive than the chitchat section.
(Where this nonsense has started to leak over.)
I believe you call that your "12 year old girl in the bar rule"
I thought the 16th page of a remote section would be a better place to talk about this.
I believe that I am on topic and not trolling.
I believe I was adding reality to a game of semantics.
I also believe the kid that owns the kick-ball defines what is out of bounds.
Ice-nine
swill269
03-16-2005, 13:34
:o
ice-nine,
the dude that owns the ball is still playing and we can still test the boundries. :eek: i got poo pooed for posting a naked butt all painted up with a face and a cigar hanging out of it's mouth. consider yourself lucky. :lol: that one crawling up on the quarter kills me.
i don't have a problem with terminating a pea sized mini me because all the pro-life people want to do is bitch. i don't know of any which have offered to adopt all unwanted children and provide them with a nice christian home. i do know of some which have murdered/maimed police, doctors, nurses, etc. in the name of "pro-life". sounds like screwing for virginity. :eek:
:cool:
ice-nine
03-16-2005, 14:26
Originally posted by swill269@Mar 16 2005, 01:34 PM
:o
ice-nine,
the dude that owns the ball is still playing and we can still test the boundries. :eek: i got poo pooed for posting a naked butt all painted up with a face and a cigar hanging out of it's mouth. consider yourself lucky. :lol: that one crawling up on the quarter kills me.
i don't have a problem with terminating a pea sized mini me because all the pro-life people want to do is bitch. i don't know of any which have offered to adopt all unwanted children and provide them with a nice christian home. i do know of some which have murdered/maimed police, doctors, nurses, etc. in the name of "pro-life". sounds like screwing for virginity. :eek:
:cool:
Swill
I don't have a dog in this fight.
I just find the sanitation of the verbiage ridiculous, maybe even offensive.
But I do strive for enlightenment, so I found a nice abortion haiku for my abortionist friends on Perfect Union.
***************************************
caressing moon,
merciful song
heavenly orb
gently kissing,
gently loving,
brazen desire
dreams will live her,
sleep will dream her,
her soul will stain
she must conceive,
he must forsake,
the child must die
jaded white room,
soft placid gloves,
tear-filled nightmares
begotten love,
sordid wonder,
hollow twilight
***************************************
pictures = bad = :angry:
poems = good = :rolleyes:
Last Gunslinger
03-18-2005, 07:48
http://www.now.org/store/images/items/bt-kal.gif
Sorry, the shock value wasn't what you hoped, I've seen worse pics than that on the signs that people like you hold up outside clinics (some as large as 8'x10'), when I was taking a friend or girlfriend to get an abortion (any one of the half dozen times I've been). I didn't have any respect for the assholes who were out there holding them, and you don't impress me much either.
Funny how you you "pro-lifers" who so love Bush don't post pics of Iraqi kids who almost made it to puberty before a "smart bomb" turned them into larger sized versions of the pics you posted.
Tell me, what exactly is your plan to raise these 900,000 unwanted babies a year?
Originally posted by ice-nine@Mar 16 2005, 11:30 AM
That being said have you read these posts?
http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.p...pic=14478&st=15 (http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14478&st=15)
Last Gunslinger Posted: Mar 13 2005, 10:13 AM - "I don't vote for anti-choice candidates." Chitchat
Last Gunslinger Posted: Mar 14 2005, 12:45 PM - "Unfortunately the only box that I have that I can defend my sister and mother and girlfriend's right to choose, is the ballot box." Chitchat
Ice-nine-
I understand, but the first URL is to a different topic. Then Last Gunslinger mentioned choice once in this thread (I missed it, I haven't read it from top to bottom), but you quoted one thing and replied another. It's about as relevant as replying to an anti-immigration comment with a pro-oil-exploration comment.
The fact that you two have it out for each other doesn't mean you should be screaming "ABORTION! ABORTION!" at ~any~ comment he makes.
Last Gunslinger-
Quit calling people a__holes. It's not convincing me that you are the best spokesperson for your side of the arguement.
ice-nine
03-18-2005, 08:03
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Mar 18 2005, 07:48 AM
http://www.now.org/store/images/items/bt-kal.gif
Sorry, the shock value wasn't what you hoped, I've seen worse pics than that on the signs that people like you hold up outside clinics (some as large as 8'x10'), when I was taking a friend or girlfriend to get an abortion (any one of the half dozen times I've been). I didn't have any respect for the assholes who were out there holding them, and you don't impress me much either.
Funny how you you "pro-lifers" who so love Bush don't post pics of Iraqi kids who almost made it to puberty before a "smart bomb" turned them into larger sized versions of the pics you posted.
Tell me, what exactly is your plan to raise these 900,000 unwanted babies a year?
That too bad because I was really, really trying to impress you.
I do find it strange that you find a simple picture, of such a high and noble undertaking, has "shock value". <_<
ice-nine
03-18-2005, 10:05
Originally posted by Bill+Mar 18 2005, 08:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bill @ Mar 18 2005, 08:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ice-nine@Mar 16 2005, 11:30 AM
That being said have you read these posts?
http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.p...pic=14478&st=15 (http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14478&st=15)
Last Gunslinger Posted: Mar 13 2005, 10:13 AM - "I don't vote for anti-choice candidates." Chitchat
Last Gunslinger Posted: Mar 14 2005, 12:45 PM - "Unfortunately the only box that I have that I can defend my sister and mother and girlfriend's right to choose, is the ballot box." Chitchat
Ice-nine-
I understand, but the first URL is to a different topic. Then Last Gunslinger mentioned choice once in this thread (I missed it, I haven't read it from top to bottom), but you quoted one thing and replied another. It's about as relevant as replying to an anti-immigration comment with a pro-oil-exploration comment.
The fact that you two have it out for each other doesn't mean you should be screaming "ABORTION! ABORTION!" at ~any~ comment he makes.
Last Gunslinger-
Quit calling people a__holes. It's not convincing me that you are the best spokesperson for your side of the arguement. [/b][/quote]
Bill,
I referenced the first URL; about someone getting run off the road is ok because george bush is bad because he doesn't support abortions or something like that; because that is how I found this current thread. I was trying to clarify that I was not trolling.
When I read the first URL posts, I said to myself, what a none-linear thought process, what other nuggets of wisdom can I gain from this individual? So I perused some more posts.
That brought me to the religious section, where he was again with the abortion stuff. It seemed it was on his mind, so I figured what the h**k.
I agree that it would have been clearer to reference this post;
Last Gunslinger Posted on: Mar 2 2005, 12:25 PM "If you believe that abortion is murder, and one million babies are murdered in the United States each year, and you do not support Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, and others who use any means necessary to end the murder of one million of their fellow Americans each year, then you are no better than the Germans who knew about Dachau and did not try to stop it."
Again, I don’t really have an interest in this other than the verbal gyrations being invoked.
I respect Last Gunslinger’s fertileness, both word and deed.
Anyone that rings the bell six times is my hero.
I was just so moved by his selfless, brave, and virtuous support of abortion, I wanted to be sure we were taking about the same thing.
Visual aids usually clarify, this one didn’t?
Ice-Nine
Last Gunslinger
03-18-2005, 12:11
And just in case ther is any confusion, I stick by that statement about either supporting Rudolph or being a coward and hypocrite.
I do find it strange that you find a simple picture, of such a high and noble undertaking, has "shock value".*
Glad you think its noble to advance your elitist cause of letting religious leaders in this country supercede my mother's right to control her own body. :rolleyes:
I respect Last Gunslinger’s fertileness, both word and deed.
Anyone that rings the bell six times is my hero.
You know what happens when you assume? BTW, answer my question, what exactly is your plan for these 900,000+ unwanted babies a year? Add 'em to the welfare enrolees? Put them in foster care?
I was just so moved by his selfless, brave, and virtuous support of abortion, I wanted to be sure we were taking about the same thing.
While I believe I detect sarcasm, if I were to substitute the second amendment for the ninth, in this case, you'd be all on board. Double standard anyone?
Last Gunslinger-
Quit calling people a__holes. It's not convincing me that you are the best spokesperson for your side of the arguement.
I didn't call anyone on this forum an a__hole, if you read my post again you'll see The people who stand outside abortion clinics, and hold 8'x10' signs of the pics posted on your forum, and yell "Don't kill your baby!" at women who are making one of the hardest decisions of thier lives, I called them assholes, and rightly so. What if people stood outside the gunshop with autopsy photos of gun shot suicides, homicides, and accidents. And yelled "Don't buy a gun! You might accidently shoot your kid!" Wouldn't you flip 'em off, and drive right past the assholes? I know I did.
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Mar 18 2005, 12:11 PM
You know what happens when you assume? BTW, answer my question, what exactly is your plan for these 900,000+ unwanted babies a year? Add 'em to the welfare enrolees? Put them in foster care?
Hey, man, you don't expect a rational answer here from ultra/neo-conservatives, do you?
Let's make abortion illegal and THEN cut all the welfare programs and make sure everything is privatized! At the same time we'll fund a war, cut taxes, dismantle social security so that by the time the troops retire they'll be destitute, but they won't live that long because we cut their healthcare benefits. Gotta pay for that war somehow, right?
It's ok, though, because it's a crusade and Jesus will come to save us all.
-Stooxie
Last Gunslinger
03-18-2005, 12:40
Hey, man, you don't expect a rational answer here from ultra/neo-conservatives, do you?
Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking. ;)
ice-nine
03-18-2005, 13:07
Originally posted by Last Gunslinger@Mar 18 2005, 12:11 PM
And just in case ther is any confusion, I stick by that statement about either supporting Rudolph or being a coward and hypocrite.
I do find it strange that you find a simple picture, of such a high and noble undertaking, has "shock value".*
Glad you think its noble to advance your elitist cause of letting religious leaders in this country supercede my mother's right to control her own body. :rolleyes:
I respect Last Gunslinger’s fertileness, both word and deed.
Anyone that rings the bell six times is my hero.
You know what happens when you assume? BTW, answer my question, what exactly is your plan for these 900,000+ unwanted babies a year? Add 'em to the welfare enrolees? Put them in foster care?
I was just so moved by his selfless, brave, and virtuous support of abortion, I wanted to be sure we were taking about the same thing.
While I believe I detect sarcasm, if I were to substitute the second amendment for the ninth, in this case, you'd be all on board. Double standard anyone?
Last Gunslinger-
Quit calling people a__holes. It's not convincing me that you are the best spokesperson for your side of the arguement.
I didn't call anyone on this forum an a__hole, if you read my post again you'll see The people who stand outside abortion clinics, and hold 8'x10' signs of the pics posted on your forum, and yell "Don't kill your baby!" at women who are making one of the hardest decisions of thier lives, I called them assholes, and rightly so. What if people stood outside the gunshop with autopsy photos of gun shot suicides, homicides, and accidents. And yelled "Don't buy a gun! You might accidently shoot your kid!" Wouldn't you flip 'em off, and drive right past the assholes? I know I did.
You never responded to why you used the term “shock value“ to describe the picture.
My Webster’s defines shock as;
1. a. A violent collision or impact; a heavy blow. See Synonyms at collision. b. The effect of such a collision or blow.
2. a. Something that jars the mind or emotions as if with a violent unexpected blow. b. The disturbance of function, equilibrium, or mental faculties caused by such a blow; violent agitation.
3. A severe offense to one's sense of propriety or decency; an outrage.
4. A potentially fatal physiological reaction to a variety of conditions, including illness, injury, hemorrhage, and dehydration, usually characterized by marked loss of blood pressure, diminished blood circulation, and inadequate blood flow to the tissues.
5. The sensation and muscular spasm caused by an electric current passing through the body or a body part.
6. A sudden economic disturbance, such as a rise in the price of a commodity.
7. A shock absorber.
And value as;
1. An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return.
2. Monetary or material worth: the fluctuating value of gold and silver.
3. Worth in usefulness or importance to the possessor; utility or merit: the value of an education.
4. A principle, standard, or quality considered worthwhile or desirable: "The speech was a summons back to the patrician values of restraint and responsibility" (Jonathan Alter).
5. Precise meaning or import, as of a word.
6. Mathematics An assigned or calculated numerical quantity.
7. Music The relative duration of a tone or rest.
8. The relative darkness or lightness of a color. See Table at color.
9. Linguistics The sound quality of a letter or diphthong.
10. One of a series of specified values: issued a stamp of new value.
So by your own words you acknowledged the photo was disturbing.
How can you reconcile your manic support of the act with your revulsion to the outcome?
You are so right about making assumptions.
Where did you get the Idea that I don’t support your mothers’ right to an abortion?
H*ll, post a mailing address and I’ll kick in $10 to the cause.
Show me anything I typed that indicated that.
It’s the picture right?
Is that not the end result of an abortion?
I’ll concur that it probably came from an anti-abortion site, but when I was searching all the pro-abortion sites for a picture I came up empty.
Isn’t that odd?
In fact all this talk has given me a dandy idea for a business. An abortion clinic/gun range.
Think of it, when the two of you both have “the need” you can carpool!
No more, “Your going shooting again!”, instead every once in a while she’ll whisper, ”Honey, lets go exercise our constitutional rights.”
Maybe event a buy one get one free day.
Mothers, wives and girlfriends would obviously be welcome; so would potential siblings and potential children, in fact once they show up they can never leave.
Like the roaming gnome would say, “Brilliant!”
See Bill, give me enough time and I’ll move this topic back to guns. :D
Originally posted by ice-nine@Mar 18 2005, 04:07 PM
So by your own words you acknowledged the photo was disturbing.
How can you reconcile your manic support of the act with your revulsion to the outcome?
WOW!!! Excellent point, ICE!!!! great job!
the libs cant face the ugliness they create, more double standard.
swill269
03-18-2005, 15:41
:o
ice-nine,
come on, "shock value" is a cliche, you know like "shock and awe"; you can't stereo type the guy for using it. :(
this type of "awareness" propaganda has been around for years. i use to watch the "highway 39" films in the early sixties at school. trying to get us to slow down on the road. :lol: some of the photos you displayed are just props like in a good movie. we don't really have a an "aborted fetus modeling agency"; do we? :ph34r:
for no dog in the fight you have said more here than anyother forum i am aware of.
for christianity's sake; eric rodolph's brother (also extreme christian) video taped himself cutting off his right arm with a skill saw. this was done in protest of all the "nonbeleivers" of the pro-life philosopy and in retaliation for all the abuse the christians were getting for his brother's problem. :eek:
i would guess the answer to the question is; "it is for some and not for others." :beer:
:cool:
darjeeling
03-18-2005, 18:02
Unfortunately, abortion is an ethical problem that cannot be solved without making assumptions we cannot verify. The important aspect of abortion is that ethics cannot resolve wether it is moral or immoral. We can only form opinions on the morality of abortion.
I don't like abortion, but I beleive it should be legal and easily accesable. It should never have to happen, but there will always be demand for it. Banning abortion would be a classic case on making a law on ethical revulsion, just as with prohibition and the war on drugs. In situations like this, its better to err on the side of liberty.
Last Gunslinger
03-19-2005, 10:58
In situations like this, its better to err on the side of liberty.
I'll second that from the moutain top. Some people here, like Tounge, don't seem to think so. They think if you aren't for telling women what they can do with their uterus, you must be pro-dead babies. That amazing lack of intellect and insight seems to be the GOP SOBs SOP.
Some of the delicate geniuses also think "Let them live." is somehow an answer to the question "What do you plan to do with 900,000 unwanted babies a year?" He doesn't seem to realize that my question is "How?" I mean, to live, they've gotta eat, right? Tounge, do you have enough money to feed 900,000 new kids a year? How about clothe, shelter, and educate them? If not, who do you think should do this?
Other delicate geniuses think making fetuses citizens is the answer. You think there is a problem with pregnant illegal immigrants coming over and having babies to get them citizenship is a problem, just wait until all they have to do is set foot in the US and the fetus becomes a citizen. You gonna start denying a visa to anyone who is expecting, and requiring them to provide a pregnancy test to prove it?
Tounge, do you have enough money to feed 900,000 new kids a year? How about clothe, shelter, and educate them? If not, who do you think should do this?
I guess you don't know what responsible citizens do, huh? And, what is a tounge?
You're a real clever one, Mush!
Originally posted by Tunug@Mar 19 2005, 02:34 PM
Tounge, do you have enough money to feed 900,000 new kids a year? How about clothe, shelter, and educate them? If not, who do you think should do this?
I guess you don't know what responsible citizens do, huh? And, what is a tounge?
You're a real clever one, Mush!
Responsible citizens use condoms or birthcontrol but the Good Book doesn't allow that either.
So, it's quite a circular problem, isn't it?
As I said before, it's pretty silly.
Disallow condoms, disallow birthcontrol, disallow abortion.
Cut welfare programs, cut taxes and privitize everything so that
only the rich, er, excuse me, "responsible" citizens have access
to anything.
Then, when the population explodes people get get ****ed about
cities and overcrowding and inner city punks.
The answer is to repress human nature (i.e. sex) so that kids can take
out their frustrations in more constructive ways, like shooting up a
highschool or two.
-Stooxie
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