"in god we trust"

[swill269]

:o
our motto says we trust in god. i know we all do not. is this a crossing of the church and state. you find this statement on many government documents and federal dollars.

any ideas/input on this is greatly welcomed. :beer: :usa:
:cool:

[Crosshair]

My view on it is that it is saying that nobody can be trusted except god himself. Thus we are a government and are governed by men/wonen who all have their flaws and cannot be trusted, thus the checks and balances built into our government. I think it is OK because we are not addressing a specific religion. Aside from athiests the "god" can be from any persons religion, not just Christianity.

Athiests, I have no idea about that bunch, do they believe that when you die that's it a big pot of nothingness. That has got to be a depresing way to go through life. Might explain that lady that went on the crusade to remove god from public schools. I have never meet a nice athiest, although I have not met many. Mabee I just ran into the nutcases that every religion has. I have friends of almost every religion. Jewish, Prodastant, Jehovas Witness, Muslim, Christian. No athiests as far as I know of. But then again if your "religion" is associated with god hating :confused: nutcases :confused: I would probably not address my religion either. <_< I probably know one, just don't know it.

Don't mean to be hatefull, that's just my observation.

[nagalfar]

Swill, I must admit it feels rather good to be disagreeing with you once again, this is not a crossing over of anything, the ideal that you are referencing for this and a whole host of other things that have been passed "as law" in recent years in regards to separation of Church and State. It was meant to stop a "state sponsered" religion, something on the order of the "Church of England", it was a/the state sponsered religion of England, and our founders were well aware of the trappings of a state being the sponser of the national religion..

And a added note, when the supreme court makes rulings, they are suppose to rule on what was the INTENT of the framers.. I am willing to bet it is far less of those thoughts and ponderings, and more of what their left or right leanings are.

BUT! if you do feel this is the govts. way of getting to you, I SAY protest this heartless atrocity! and never use money again! lol.. you can send me all those pieces of paper that you can not longer in good conscience use!

:usa:

[swill269]

:o
crosshair,

i am atheist but you would never know if i didn't tell you. i'll give you more consideration than a majority of your friends. you do not have to know god to be good.

some of our founding fathers were atheists and it was their intent not to let religion or religious orders govern this country by any religion or it's doctrine.

nagalfar,

it is a fine line between religious conviction and conscience, i have not seen so much talk about president/religion since jfk was the first catholic. by the same token both eras had citizens alarmed about religious overtones in the government. if a christian zealot runs for president and wins, do you think that vote of confidence would inspire a zealot? do you think a zealot would be empeached if he/she imposed? i feel currently there is too much religious intervention in our government.

we need more business men not zealots to get this country on it's feet. we are a nation not a church. we make the world go round not save souls. nations of citizens look up to us for help not a congregation praying for salvation. i really don't think i could deal with a president who thought the world was only 6000 yrs old.
:cool:

[BlenderWizard]

Originally posted by swill269@Nov 9 2004, 08:02 PM
i really don't think i could deal with a president who thought the world was only 6000 yrs old.
:cool:
Not all Christians believe this to be true. I personally believe that to be a load of crap. Kinda makes you wonder if someone's sitting around saying, "Hey, let's see if they'll fall for this one."

[Havok]

http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

I would like to contest that the "Separation of Church and State" does not even exist. The media and general public use this term so much, it is believed to be true.

We are gauranteed freedom of religion.... not freedom FROM religion.

As stated nicely before: 'GOD' simply refers to a higher being. As an atheist, one might not have a need for a belief in a higher power to 'be good' but it sure helps alot of others stay away from crime.


well, hey, read that article. It's interesting to say the least.

-= B =-

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by BlenderWizard+Nov 10 2004, 01:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlenderWizard @ Nov 10 2004, 01:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-swill269@Nov 9 2004, 08:02 PM
i really don't think i could deal with a president who thought the world was only 6000 yrs old.
:cool:
Not all Christians believe this to be true. I personally believe that to be a load of crap. Kinda makes you wonder if someone's sitting around saying, "Hey, let's see if they'll fall for this one." [/b][/quote]
Ill hafta add a BIG AMEN TO THAT.. That is all designed to decieve. But thats my opinion. You know what they say, " everybodys got one and most of em stink".

[WhiteWulf]

If a man really gets to thinking about it, we really dont know anything about the world or how long its been around.It seems we are just reading what other people have written down.And exactly how can we belive one word of it???Every bit of information we read and are taught in school could all be just a load of BS meant to control us.Now thats one heck of a good conspiracy theory for all us nut cases!
As for religion it hard to know what to belive.Personal preference the Christian religion makes more sense to me.I dont know about anyone else but I really dont belive I evolved from a monkey.Perhaps some people did evolve this way.Point being there is a god, higher power etc.But how much of what we read can we belive thats another question entirely.
I do belive if America would start enforcing the laws of nature and the laws of god this country would be a much better place.

[Bill]

You guys are way off topic.

The question is: Is the phrase "In God We Trust", which is on every dollar bill, a violation of the Establishment clause of the Constitution?

My opinion is NO.

I am not religious.

But by simply stating "In God We Trust", the government is not making a law that is establishing or promoting a given religion. Yes, they are saying something that ****es off athiests, but the wording of the Constitution doesn't say "Don't **** people off".

Should we have it on our money? Again, my opinion is NO. But if it's there, it's no skin off my back.

For a good read, see http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets...-we-trust.shtml (http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml)

Summary: We started using the motto on coins in the Civil War period. It didn't become an official MOTTO until the 50's when we decided to differentiate ourselves from those "godless communists" by making it a law. Around that same time we added "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance. People weren't really bent out of shape about it until the Commies threatened our lifestyles.

AND, to top it off, it hasn't been on our currency for more than 40 years.

So don't anyone think that this country has been about God and Apple Pie the whole time. It wasn't, and George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would validate that if they could only get past my email confirmation setup here on PerfectUnion BBS.

[Crosshair]

swill269

See, I alway's thought all the athiests I ran into where the nutcases. Just like in any religion, the nutty ones are the ones you remember. Glad to see that my experience is the exception. I follow one simple rule when it comes to others religions.

I don't care what you believe in, as long as you don't try and force it on me.

True story,
At my job there was this one Catholic customer that tried to "save everyone". She tried to "save me" once. I told her that I was already Catholic. She then drills me on different bible passages. (Lady, I read the Bible, I don't memorise it.) Long story short she became such a hassle that security banned her from the store property, good riddance. Now she hangs out at Target. :lol:

I didn't mean to bash athiests specificly, I bash every religion (even my own) when it is convienient. :lol:

/Sorry to go off topic

[swill269]

:o
havok
God was seen as the author of natural law and morality. If one did not believe in God one could not operate from a proper moral base. And by not having a foundation from which to work, one would destroy the community. The two primary places where morality is taught are the family and the church. The church was allowed to influence the government in righteousness an d justice so that virtue would be upheld. Not allowing the church to influence the state is detrimental to the country and destroys our foundation of righteousness and justice. It is absolutely necessary for the church to influence the state in virtue because without virtue our government will crumble -- the representatives will look after their own good instead of the country's.

this is not truth ,but speculation, and that is exactly why religion should be isolated from government; too much ideology. religion/virtue is a personal attribute of each individual not a national by product of and for good government.

we may remove an elected official for looking after their own good. we don't need religion to police/mold national virtue/morality. it only confuses the issuses of government with issuse of religious behavior.

"God was seen as the author of natural law and morality." regardless of who the author might/might not be, the natural law and morality issue is a personal issue.

the government has now seen fit how to raise your children too. spank one in public and see moralty in action. you'll in court and your kids will be in foster care.
i was disiplined every day of my life as a child. "time out did not exist", "spare the rod and spoil the child" did. so it goes to show the government will discount what it wants to in a religious context.

juvenile deliquncy is at an all time high. not just breaking windows, stealing yard ornaments/funiture, rolling someone's house; but murder, grand thieft, arson, drug dealing. religion has been there all along to no prevail. the government has you as a parent by proxy, your hands are tied.

:cool:

[swill269]

:o
The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville

this is an emotional reaction from fear and the unknow, not a national issue, we did not even vote on it. 1957 we were afraid of "sputnik", in 1964-66 it was veitnam. we only turn to "god" at our convenience for deliverance from evil.

bill,
as far as getting off topic goes, their is only so much you can say and do with a mini 14, ak47, m1, ar15, etc. i have read it all and have run out of info and intrest. the general chit-chat forum was all that was left with any life to prepetuate new ideas/conversation. i respect your wishes and am trying to carry on as you wish. however, if our threads have to pass a content exam for specific topic relevancy, we are being censured. sorry, but i am disapointed in your position. i must have misunderstood "perfect union, it's about freedom, stupid".

the forum moderator should have squelched the "bunker punker" like some of the rest of us tried to do. i am sorry this has snowballed into mass censorship, i have tried to be controversial but not obnoxious, defensive but not rude, and tolerant of all. there is going to be a limit to what can be discussed in the new topics as well. when all is said and done shall we just sign-off and say good buy?
steve

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by swill269@Nov 10 2004, 03:02 PM
:o
The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville

this is an emotional reaction from fear and the unknow, not a national issue, we did not even vote on it. 1957 we were afraid of "sputnik", in 1964-66 it was veitnam. we only turn to "god" at our convenience for deliverance from evil.

bill,
as far as getting off topic goes, their is only so much you can say and do with a mini 14, ak47, m1, ar15, etc. i have read it all and have run out of info and intrest. the general chit-chat forum was all that was left with any life to prepetuate new ideas/conversation. i respect your wishes and am trying to carry on as you wish. however, if our threads have to pass a content exam for specific topic relevancy, we are being censured. sorry, but i am disapointed in your position. i must have misunderstood "perfect union, it's about freedom, stupid".

the forum moderator should have squelched the "bunker punker" like some of the rest of us tried to do. i am sorry this has snowballed into mass censorship, i have tried to be controversial but not obnoxious, defensive but not rude, and tolerant of all. there is going to be a limit to what can be discussed in the new topics as well. when all is said and done shall we just sign-off and say good buy?
steve
Steve, I think we should take it off. Surprise you? "God" is a "title", not a name. I dont know "who's" "god" "they" are talkin about. But heah, its not real money anyway. Its a note. Issued against something that is not there to back it up. A cold check, if you will? Only as good as the one who issued it. No-one ever questions where all the "real" money went. I dont care what Ceaser puts on it, I just want the real stuff back.

To answer your question, is it an issue between church and state?. No. If you owned the bank you could put what ever you wanted to on it. And contrary to poular belief, the federal reserve is not a public/government organization. Just another private bank, a big one, owned by the bankers. They make "money" out of thin air"


Oh, and I too hear the cricketttes, and see the writing on the wall. Thats a shame. I really enjoy fellowshiping with you folks. But I also understand Bill has a great responsibility, and it is his yard we are playing in. (in six year old speak)

[Bill]

Swill, it is NOT mass censorship.

Censorship is what the government does to people. Private parties (me) aren't capable of censorship when you, the visitor, are free to come and go and put your word out elsewhere.

That being said, Chit Chat cannot be off-topic. When it comes to individuals raising it from debate and argument to online text wars, or people posting a topic, waiting for a reaction, then editing it so it looks like they didn't do anything (or worse, making the context change), then it's time for me to tell everyone to take a NAP and come back when they are all grown up.

[swill269]

:o
Bill,

no argument here, i took the liberty to use "censor" more to express than accuse. i am simply disappointent in your postion as you also appear to be. "tough love", i can ride it out. ;)

you have my regards, :beer:
steve

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by swill269@Nov 10 2004, 04:57 PM
i am simply disappointent in your postion as you also appear to be. "tough love", i can ride it out. ;)

you have my regards, :beer:
steve
I like "tough love". My daddy use to tell me, " Imonna whoop yer as&, boy!!!"

;)

Edited to add: Bill, will you be my daddy? :lol:

[merc930]

Maybe our bills should say "this is your god" instead of "in God we trust." It would be closer to the truth.

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by merc930@Nov 11 2004, 12:17 PM
Maybe our bills should say "this is your god" instead of "in God we trust." It would be closer to the truth.
Ahhh... Someone else here see the Baal worship. Good point.

[swill269]

:o
merc930,
i'll buy that! :eek:
:cool:

[merc930]

Ah...I was being sarcastic, though. I don't really want them to put that on the bills. I want us to be closer to what is on the bills.

[merc930]

Lol, hurry up and post here before the whole forum is locked! :lol:

[swill269]

:o
i have another question; if an atheist swore on the bible to tell the truth, would his testimony be creditable. :eek:
:cool:

[debo]

I agree with what nagalfar and Bill have said. Putting "in God we trust" on currency or the pledge doesn't support any established religion. It is shown that this was added for political reasons and not for religious reasons. It doesn't make people more religious by having it on government property, unless they worship the state. This particular phrase doesn't really coerce anyone by forcing them to do anything or pay to support it. Also since the idea of god in this way is such an ambiguous phrase as to even coming near to any tract of belief it is hardly forcing a belief. Because it is such a harmless thing I would say it just isn't a big deal and on the list of things to fix with our government it could be put to the very back. It wouldn't change much if it was removed though.

My religious take though is that it could in a sense bring greater condemnation on this people for claiming to trust in God when this is continuing to be less of the case no matter how many people put magnetic flags and ribbons on their cars. Basically we are more hypocritical and we know what Christ said about hypocrits.

[tri70]

Its not adding a cross or star of David or anything that resembles a religious symbol of a specific religion. But it does make the 85% of Americans that are religious, feel better to believe we can follow the God of our choosing. Our government wants religion out of its affairs but the government will be in all the affairs of all religions. How does that show equal separation?
I do like the "In God we trust", our found fathers, the majority of them were Christian.

-tri

[migyver]

I'm an agnostic, but the use of the phrase "in god we trust" does not violate the establishment clause. During the pledge of allegiance, I remain silent when the words "under god" are spoken. These were added during the McCarthy era. In school I was always marked in error when I failed to capitalize the word god. This is wrong and offensive to my beliefs. Who's to say one God is superior to another god? Morality and goodness are not the exclusive domain of those who believe in a god or a God. Countless people have died or been killed in the name of god throughout history. Some evangelical Christians today would not classify Catholics or other denominations as Christian, but they don't have a problem classifying the version of Christianity practiced by the founding fathers as such. :cool:

[swill269]

:o
the word on the street is, "the majority rule". so i go with flow. this is not really an issue with me. more to test the waters in the new forum and to get input from others. :beer:

some responses were more enlighting than others, i personally think all religious items/icons/text should be kept within it's context/confines of the house of worship it belongs to.

i would go to a porn theater to see porn, not look for it in the streets/puplic. :eek:
:cool:

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by swill269@Nov 12 2004, 05:49 PM

i would go to a porn theater to see porn, not look for it in the streets/puplic. :eek:
:cool:
[Archie Bunker] Whaat a pre-voit!! [Archie Bunker] :lol:

[Bill]

Originally posted by migyver@Nov 12 2004, 09:44 AM
I'm an agnostic, but the use of the phrase "in god we trust" does not violate the establishment clause. During the pledge of allegiance, I remain silent when the words "under god" are spoken. These were added during the McCarthy era. In school I was always marked in error when I failed to capitalize the word god. This is wrong and offensive to my beliefs. Who's to say one God is superior to another god? Morality and goodness are not the exclusive domain of those who believe in a god or a God. Countless people have died or been killed in the name of god throughout history. Some evangelical Christians today would not classify Catholics or other denominations as Christian, but they don't have a problem classifying the version of Christianity practiced by the founding fathers as such. :cool:
I agree!

By the way, many of the founding fathers were Deists...

http://www.deism.org/introduction.htm
http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

And you know what was said about them (one of my favorite quotes)


===============================
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns."

-- P.J. O’Rourke

[swill269]

:o
bill,
this "deism" is pretty kinky.The word "God" is used to describe this creator, not to be confused with the Biblegod. this statement acknowledges the existence of at least two gods, goes for the theory of creativity, denies the biblegod credit. wow! i thought the theory of creativity originated from the bible (the biblegod's bible); and "a rose by anyother name......." <_<

what ever floats your boat; my veiw allows me to be free of the burden of pleasing anyone but myself, if i so choose. i feel good if i can help someone and even better if i do. "if it is to be, it is up to me" :beer:
:cool:

[AR15_Fanatic]

Originally posted by swill269@Nov 9 2004, 01:05 PM
:o
our motto says we trust in god. i know we all do not. is this a crossing of the church and state. you find this statement on many government documents and federal dollars.

any ideas/input on this is greatly welcomed. :beer: :usa:
:cool:
The day this is edited to "In Jesus Christ We Trust". I'll complain. Unitl then "In God we Trust" is perfectly fine and you know perfectly well that no one is using this to force religion down your throat.

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by AR15_Fanatic@Nov 13 2004, 11:51 AM

The day this is edited to "In Jesus Christ We Trust". I'll complain.
When that day comes, we wont be packin pieces of paper with nothing to back it up.

[don421]

Atheism is a religion, just as evolution is a religion. Our God has a name "YHWH".
Separation of church and state isn't any part of the constitution but was in a letter written between 2 of the founding fathers. Before 1900 in the U.S. Supreme Court ruling U.S. vs Holy Trinity Church, US ruled that America was a Christian Country. Thanks. Don Lynch

[swill269]

:o
don421,
technically eating is a religion and this US ruled that America was a Christian Country. is state/church activity in itself. no state/government has the right to declare "states religion" as anything. :eek:
:cool:

[gossman]

swill, I will settle this next week if you happen to be in Memphis. Bring me all that nasty money with the motto on it and I will dispose of it for you :lol: The founding fathers wrote the Constitution, if they had a problem with it didn't show. Yes they were mostly deist's, they saw God as a "cosmic clockwinder", setting the world in motion and letting run itself. With all the scripture they used to back up the way they saw the country to be ran, they didn't have a problem with that either. They did not see it as placing a state religion in charge. They just saw that Christianity as a moral compass to make law. Now Steve, are you going to meet me in Memphis or not with all that cash that you got with that offensive motto. Don't forget it also has mason symbolism on it too. :blink:

Merry Christmas to all you Great people, especially you steve, you make it interesting here at this bbs. :D :usa: :beer:

[swill269]

:o
gossman,
Christianity as a moral compass to make law.

i like that! and it works good enough, let us leave it as a "moral" gesture and not a government quote/doctrine/moral "endorced" in public. ;)

no, my "finacial compass" says hold on to it; no matter what is written on it, it's all i've got. :eek: have a good trip and don't be hangin' in them "blues bars" throwin' away your hard earned "in god we trusts". :lol:

take care and have a HAPPY HOLIDAY
steve

[swill269]

:o
swordslinger,

"once a king always a king, but once a knight is enough" :lol:

i like your new "Swordslinger"! ;) i am still struggling to copy the video tape, i do not have the "right stuff".

take it easy while you heal, hope your wife is doing well also. Paul is doing fine and he says thanks. :beer:

HAPPY HOLIDAYS
steve

[Metaldoc]

As most of you might suspect, I do not find the motto offensive. It expresses my personal belief. But, I won't say that it should be there. Money has become "god" to a lot of people and it may very well be inappropriate to link the Almighty God with a false god.

Read what Jesus said:

"But Jesus aware of their malice, said, " Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me a coin."
And they brought him a coin. And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?"
They said, "Caesar's."
Then He said to them, "Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Matt. 22:18-21

It's not what it says on the money. It's what's written on our hearts.

Metaldoc :usa:

[swill269]

:o
metaldoc,

i have heard that "money is the root of all evil", could this be the government's way of hiding that fact?

you are not taxed for what is in your heart and there is no limit on what you can spend.
:cool:

[Metaldoc]

Originally posted by swill269+Dec 16 2004, 10:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (swill269 @ Dec 16 2004, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>:o
metaldoc,

i have heard that "money is the root of all evil", could this be the government's way of hiding that fact?

[/b]
That is the common misquotation you most often hear. It is actually;


For the love of money is the root of all evil:
1 Timothy 6:10

There is nothing evil about money, just the way it is used or abused.


<!--QuoteBegin-swill269@Dec 16 2004, 10:24 AM
:o


you are not taxed for what is in your heart and there is no limit on what you can spend.
:cool:
[/quote]


That is a pretty neat perception. We all need to spend more in that regard.

Metaldoc

[swill269]

:o
metaldoc,

yes; sometimes misquotes get more press than the actual quote.

i heard/learned this "love of money...." when i was young. i was listening to a sermon and the idea of loving money and doing everything you could to get it would leave you wanting more and never having enough. i have made it a habit to give what i can stand/afford to others with less or none. when i worked i gave away money for any cause i deemed worthy. save a tree, save a whale, save a kid, save the world. by the time i was 47 i had made enough and saved enough to retire and live a modest/comfortable life. my house is over 50 yrs old and my newest car is 18 yrs old and i want for nothing. the institutions i placed my savings/future in have let me down finacially. i am too smart to starve to death so i will overcome that. not craving money has allowed me to have all i want, you can't beat it. i have always worked for the day i did not have to. i am still retired @ 55 and can not get to my money until i am 59 1/2 (401k). i still give away my money and personal belongings to those which need it more. believe me, it comes back in much larger quantities than it goes out. like i said, "i want for nothing", i have more than i will ever need/use. ;)
:cool:

[Tunug]

Seperation of church and state was meant to keep the government from meddling in the affairs of the church... not the other way around, which is how it is being interperated today.

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Dec 16 2004, 03:52 PM
It's what's written on our hearts.

Metaldoc* :usa:
Good point Doc!! Hebrews 8:8-10, show us that we can identify TRUE Israel that way as well. By what is "written on" their hearts.



Back to the Money:
"God" is a title, not a name. I think the money should say, "In the Name of Jesus The Christ we trust, and run His enemies out of town on a rail!!" ;)

But you know how I am! :blink: :)

[darjeeling]

That'd be nice swordslinger, but we dont need to give the ACLU any more ammunition. Anyways, "in god we trust" is much more elegant, we dont want our money to look like pesos.

[swill269]

:o
i go for things more like: "land of the free" "home of the brave" "don't tread on me" "united we stand" "equality to all" "let freedom ring" "give me liberty or give me death"(for BIG coins) "all for one and one for all" "fear no evil".

none of these bear a religious statement/reference, but do represent american values. like swordslinger infers, what god, whos god are we trusting. it is a stupid statement with religious overtones endorced by the government.
:cool:

[lendell]

When they take in God we trust off of the money, it won't be long until the end. Where will we all be when the sky turns red and the trumpet sounds...

[swill269]

:o
lendell,

don't be scarrin' the kids like that. :eek:
:cool:

[darjeeling]

As far as I'm concerned, God is probably slightly annoyed by being refered to as the guard of our government fiat. If God is not supposed to be concerened with money, and if money is a hinderance to becoming close to God, than it seems strange and slightly insulting to God to show our trust for him on our currency.

[YourLocalNerd]

Originally posted by darjeeling@Dec 28 2004, 02:47 PM
As far as I'm concerned, God is probably slightly annoyed by being refered to as the guard of our government fiat. If God is not supposed to be concerened with money, and if money is a hinderance to becoming close to God, than it seems strange and slightly insulting to God to show our trust for him on our currency.
On the other side of the "coin" :lol: you could look at it this way.

The reason we put "In God We Trust" on our currency is to show that it is in God that we trust, and not our money ;)
I do not believe that to be true today at all but that could very well have been the orignal intent.

Seperation of church and state was meant to keep the government from meddling in the affairs of the church... not the other way around, which is how it is being interperated today.

EXACTLY!! There are few things in the media and what is being taught in school today that peave me more than this misinterpreted statement. And yes I said statement. That is a quote from Thomas Jefferson, it is not written in law.

[Ivan]

Baptism for forgivness of sins- Acts2:38, Mark 16:16.

Hey Swordslinger, this isn't the right place to write this I know, but do you really need to be baptised, or is that just for show? I just saw that in your blue signature and wondered about it.

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by Ivan@Dec 29 2004, 03:12 AM
but do you really need to be baptised, or is that just for show?
Kinda hard to get around it. I am aware all of the teachings that say its not nessecary, but the fact of the matter is, what we have is a "recipe". Some places say "repent", some places say "believe", some places say "confess". But what is often left out is "baptism". We are told that we must have His Spirit in Romans 8:9.

Romans8:9
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."



The only way one can take baptism out of the equation, is to ignore the places that say:

Acts 2:37-38
37 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart,(Id would say they believed) and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost(Spirit)."

Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

1st Peter 3:21
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Acts 22:16
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Jonh 3:5
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Galatians 3:27
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

There is a bunch more, but my point is that is we throw these out, we can equaly through out the places that say, beleive, repent, confess ect....

I know there are many other teaching concerning doing away with baptism. I do not wish to argue scripture with another Christian for all of the non-believers to see. They like that. :lol: Actually, they revel and feed off of it, as one can see by looking at some of the past posts. If you wish to study more, or take exception to what I have presented, please PM me. I can take a beating as well as anyone. :lol:

[cabdmd]

Swordslinger gave you the scriptures that call for believers to be baptised.
It is a public demonstration by you to show that you are a beliver. It does not have anything to do with salvation. That is if a believer were to die before being baptised there would be no difference than if he were. Think of the 'thief' on the cross.