Evolution, Creation, or Both? [Archive]

kravman4

09-25-2004, 14:06

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light, God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning - the first day.

Genesis 1:1-5

Seems pretty clear to me that God created the world and all it's inhabitants in six, twenty-four hour days and then rested on the seventh.

Don't you think that if it really took hundreds or thousands of years to create the earth, the Bible would say so?

Where's the indication that God didn't mean "real" 24-hour days?

Do you think God is not capable of creating the world in seven 24-hour days?

The Hewbrew word used for "day" in Genesis was used throughout the rest of the Old Testament. Does that mean that we can't take any day literally in the Old Testament?

If we deny the veracity of the first verse of the Bible, why should we take the rest literally?

Moses (writer of Genesis) obviously thought that God meant 24-hour days. The fourth commandment, regarding the work-week and setting aside time to honor God, reads:

"...for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." Exodus 20:11

Following the reasoning of 1000-day-age thinking (the idea that a day could have actually been 1000 or more years), how can we interpret Exodus 20:11? The fourth commandment uses Genesis 1:1-5 as an example for a 7-day week stating, "...for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day."

Are we to assume that maybe we are supposed to work 6, 1000-day-long periods, and then rest 1, 1000-day-long period?

Do you think that we would be able to survive in such conditions? I believe in the French Revolution, an effort was made by the French to distance themselves from any Biblical standard, the French tried to change the week from seven days to ten days. Men and animals could not take the strain of the extra three days. Gotta have a 7-day week!

And as for this:
There were obviously enough people around for Cain to build a city for and find a wife.
We don't neccessarily know if Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's first children, now do we? Also, it was not unlawful for a man to marry his sister before The Law was given to Moses. (don't get me started on this subject unless you wanna talk about genetics! :confused: ) Lastly, Adam lived 937 years. I doubt he only had four or five kids! :eek: ;)

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 14:51

Was there man here before Adam? Im not the only Christian to believe this. In fact the people who espouse the creation teaching in the "judeo" christian churches are the biggest evolutionist of all! They have all races "evolving" from Adam's race after the flood. There is evidence that clearly shows all three racial groups existing just a short time after the flood. I trurley dont believe the flood was worldwide. The word use as "earth" and "whole earth and world" has been translated more times to say"land".

Then there is the non-sense of Cannan being turned black??? If I were a black man, that would offend me. The word Adam in Strong's is #120, ie man, it is taken from the same word#119 which means, to turn rosey, to turn flush, to show blood in the face. In Gen 5: it states clearly that the book was of the "generations" of Adam. #8435 in Strong's and it mean "decent" ie. family"

The above teachings are not PC. I dont claim to know much, but I believe that all will be revealed when the King allowes it.

Not to start a flame war, but to all those men that have decided to give up on Christianity, there are answers out there that harmanize the creation story and the scientific evidence. No the "churhianity" group will not accept it because they will probaly lose the 501-c3 and fat Joe banker will stop titheing cause he can no longer claim it on his taxes. (now that was a run-on sentance)

jeclif

09-25-2004, 16:32

creation trough evolution <_<

kravman4

09-25-2004, 16:44

Was there man here before Adam? Im not the only Christian to believe this.

Death did not enter into the world until the fall of man. How then is it possible that God "used" evolution to accomplish his purpose? Wouldn't that mean that there would have been death before death entered the world? It doesn't make sense!

There is evidence that clearly shows all three racial groups existing just a short time after the flood.

Shem, Ham, and Japheth (spelling?) were Noah's three sons. All mankind has come from one of these three men. Other than Noah's immediate family, all the rest were killed in the flood. Nothing wrong there.

Then there is the non-sense of Cannan being turned black??? If I were a black man, that would offend me. The word Adam in Strong's is #120, ie man, it is taken from the same word#119 which means, to turn rosey, to turn flush, to show blood in the face. In Gen 5: it states clearly that the book was of the "generations" of Adam. #8435 in Strong's and it mean "decent" ie. family"

What point are you trying to make?

I truley dont believe the flood was worldwide.

If the flood wasn't worldwide, then what was it's extent? Scientists speculate that some "cataclysmic event" might have separated the continents. A world wide flood would qualify. Evidence suggests that there was once massive flooding and great movement of water. Would you agree that the Grand Canyon was formed by the flood? If so, then how did the water get all the way over there if the flood was only regional? (middle east) This pretty much comes down to whether or not you are willing to take God at his word. God said he sent a flood that covered the earth. His Word is enough for me.

Bret

09-25-2004, 16:53

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 25 2004, 11:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 25 2004, 11:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 09:49 AM
IMHO – If the earth was created in 7 days.

Who can truly say what is a day in the in the eyes of the Lord.

My $0.2
Now that's about the smartest thing I've ever heard on the subject.

-Stooxie[/b][/quote]
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.

Mainly because I’m just of the opinion that it’s a bit arrogant of us to think that we can fully comprehend “time” from the Lord’s perspective.

That said – I understand that I could be wrong, but I tend to think that as long as it might seem to us that we are here on earth. It is probably but a millisecond (conceptually speaking) to a celestial deity. Especially one that was here before time began and will remain so - long after this little speck of dirt we call earth is so much cosmic dust.

Kind of a deep subject I know. Please forgive me if I offended anybody. But that’s just how I feel on the subject. I guess the only way we will ever know for sure is when we are standing before St. Peter at the Pearly Gates.

Until that "TIME" (pardon the pun) - God Bless the USA!
:usa:

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 17:58

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 25 2004, 10:44 PM

[QUOTE]There is evidence that clearly shows all three racial groups existing just a short time after the flood.

Shem, Ham, and Japheth (spelling?) were Noah's three sons. All mankind has come from one of these three men. Other than Noah's immediate family, all the rest were killed in the flood. Nothing wrong there.

That, my freind is evolution. All men are not the same phsyicaly, and I dont just mean skin color.

As far as the flood, there is evidence of a world wide flood, I just dont think it was noah;s flood and if you look up the words that were tranlated from the Hebrew it donsnt leave it cut and dry.

I know very well where you are coming from, but good men are leaveing the church because of the PC teachings in order to make everyone feel good.

As for the reference to Strong's, it is clear the Adam was of one particular race. I have personal freinds that have done missionary work in Africa over the coarse of five generations and none of them turned black because of their geographic location.

Dont get me wrong, Im not challenging the Word of God, I believe it is inspired cover to cover and sometimes I wonder about the cover. :lol: But what I am challenging is the modern "judeo" christian teaching that all men come from one particular race. And that Noah put every species on the face of the earth on a boat that we specificly know what the size was. Genisis 6:4 says that "There were giants in thoses days; and also after that" We know of one line of giants that made it through the flood, the famous Goliath. ??

I dont want to fight, just encourage some thinking. ;)

stooxie

09-25-2004, 18:07

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 25 2004, 02:53 PM
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.
whatsa matter? Can't you just accept the fact that some nutcase like myself
sided with you? ;)

I am glad to see people here actually trying to correlate scientifc findings with
biblical scripture. At the very least folks seem to think it could have taken a
a decent amount of time.

I like that. Shows a coming together of faith and scientific fact* and that people
are willing to be open minded.

:beer:

-Stooxie

*Some people feel that there is no fact unless it it's the bible. Fine,
substitute whatever word you like.

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 18:22

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 26 2004, 12:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 26 2004, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 02:53 PM
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.
whatsa matter? Can't you just accept the fact that some nutcase like myself
sided with you? ;)

I am glad to see people here actually trying to correlate scientifc findings with
biblical scripture. At the very least folks seem to think it could have taken a
a decent amount of time.

I like that. Shows a coming together of faith and scientific fact* and that people
are willing to be open minded.

:beer:

-Stooxie

*Some people feel that there is no fact unless it it's the bible. Fine,
substitute whatever word you like. [/b][/quote]
Creation and science can be harmanized completely. Its man that is not smart enough to figure it out, and Im the dumbest one of the bunch. Its when the "judeo" christian churches take everything completely litteral, when we dont speak completely litteral, we speak both. And the Word of God is written in both, litteral and metaphoricaly. Revelation is a perfect example. Another good example is the story in Genesis of the cursing of Cannan. It says that he was cursed because Ham "looked upon his fathers nakedness", but why curse Cannan? If you study futher, such as Levitcus 18 you will find that "looked upon his father's nakedness" is a Hebrew figure of speach that means sleeping with your father's wife. If that is the case, then we can see why Cannan was cursed, he was a genetic misfit.

If you look at Haley's Bible Handbook in the section about the archelogical finds, you will see that the Cannanites were sexual perverts, and were really big on child sacrifice.

Do we have a culture today that pushes porno in your face every time we turn on the TV? Do we have an allmost religous zealotry that supports abortion?

Maybe, we still have Cannanite's with us today. According to scripture we do.

If you are wondering why Im not giveing Chapter and verse, its because I want you to look it up. :D

Bret

09-25-2004, 18:33

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 25 2004, 04:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 25 2004, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 02:53 PM
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.
whatsa matter? Can't you just accept the fact that some nutcase like myself
sided with you? ;)
[/b][/quote]
Oh no, as weird as it might feel - you & I agreeing on something. :D I just wanted to make sure that you & others understood what I was try'n to say that’s all.

I am glad to see people here actually trying to correlate scientifc findings with
biblical scripture. At the very least folks seem to think it could have taken a
a decent amount of time.

I like that. Shows a coming together of faith and scientific fact* and that people
are willing to be open minded.

:beer:

-Stooxie

Surely a few hundred years ago you & I probably would have been excommunicated from the church or worst put to death in a most heinous way (ala the Spanish inquisition) for thinking the way we do on this subject. But personally I think that everything fits better if we concede that there are many things we all can’t completely explain away with science or religion - that’s all.

Regardless if the Lord is the all knowing, all seeing & all loving God that I believe he is – I would hope he would forgive me if I have been wrong on any level.

Again God Bless the USA!
:usa:

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 18:44

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 26 2004, 12:33 AM
[QUOTE
Regardless if the Lord is the all knowing, all seeing & all loving God that I believe he is – I would hope he would forgive me if I have been wrong on any level.

Again God Bless the USA!
:usa:
He is! And He will! See my sig line. Submit to the Only King!!

Dorkface

09-25-2004, 18:55

there needs to be another option.

D. I dunno...

I can wrap my head around almost any idea out there and have confedence about the subject. but when it comes to religion i just dunno... whenever i try and think about it my brain just shuts down and i feel like im in a white void.... whenever i was in church as a little boy it always felt silly. about the only time it never feels silly is if im up in the mountains in the middle of nowhere and try to think about it. Ill do anything and go anywhere with my girlfiend except when she goes to church... I just feel like i would be offending everyone there since i dont have unwaivering faith.

Am i just weird? :blink:

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 19:02

No your not just wierd. Most men have the same problem because Christianity has been neutered. The casterated version is called "judeo"christianity. That why the seats are filled with women and fewer men.

They should have a great big pair of casterateing snips like they use on Bulls instead of the cross hanging behind the pulpit.

I tried to add D. I dont know, but Im not smart enough to edit the poll.

stooxie

09-25-2004, 19:06

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 25 2004, 04:33 PM
Surely a few hundred years ago you & I probably would have been excommunicated from the church or worst put to death in a most heinous way (ala the Spanish inquisition) for thinking the way we do on this subject.
Right, and isn't that aweful?

I like to think that religion inspires mankind to do great things and be good to each
other.

I hate to think that the goal of religion is to instill fear in people, as it did in those times.
That's why I have a hard time with the phrases "to fear God" and "God fearing." I'd rather do
the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not out of fear of being smitten.

I'm sure you'll be forgiven for using the noodle that you've been blessed with.

-Stooxie

stooxie

09-25-2004, 19:13

Originally posted by Dorkface@Sep 25 2004, 04:55 PM
there needs to be another option.

D. I dunno...

I can wrap my head around almost any idea out there and have confedence about the subject. but when it comes to religion i just dunno... whenever i try and think about it my brain just shuts down and i feel like im in a white void.... whenever i was in church as a little boy it always felt silly. about the only time it never feels silly is if im up in the mountains in the middle of nowhere and try to think about it. Ill do anything and go anywhere with my girlfiend except when she goes to church... I just feel like i would be offending everyone there since i dont have unwaivering faith.

Am i just weird? :blink:
I think that sentiment is extremely common these days. Many people feel somewhat abandoned or betrayed by organized religion.

Here's a fact that I know few people can claim: I attended BOTH Catholic and Hebrew school at the
SAME time. It's a really loooooooong story :D but let me tell you, I got it coming and going. Both sides
were equally abusive.

Basically the issue for me is that organized religion doesn't have much to do with spirituality any more and
a lot to do with going through the motions. The scandals in the Catholic church, the cattiness of Judaism,
blah, blah. It's very numbing.

So, while I do still stick to a faith, I really just try to be a decent human being and hope that that earns me
some points with some higher being.

-Stooxie

stooxie

09-25-2004, 19:16

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:02 PM
No your not just wierd. Most men have the same problem because Christianity has been neutered. The casterated version is called "judeo"christianity. That why the seats are filled with women and fewer men.

They should have a great big pair of casterateing snips like they use on Bulls instead of the cross hanging behind the pulpit.

I tried to add D. I dont know, but Im not smart enough to edit the poll.
Ok, I need some clarification on this one because to me this just sounds anti-semetic and masogynistic.

Please explain to me how that's not the case.

-Stooxie

Bret

09-25-2004, 19:17

I'm sure you'll be forgiven for using the noodle that you've been blessed with.

-Stooxie

Thanks Stooxie,

But to quote a famous Mel Gibson line from one of his lesser known movies;

“Ah cut it out – you’re making me all misty”… ;)

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 19:31

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 26 2004, 01:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 26 2004, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:02 PM
No your not just wierd. Most men have the same problem because Christianity has been neutered.* The casterated version is called "judeo"christianity.* That why the seats are filled with women and fewer men.

* They should have a great big pair of casterateing snips like they use on Bulls instead of the cross hanging behind the pulpit.

I tried to add D. I dont know, but Im not smart enough to edit the poll.
Ok, I need some clarification on this one because to me this just sounds anti-semetic and masogynistic.

Please explain to me how that's not the case.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
Not anti semite. Im just anti anything that is anti-Christ. To define what I mean by that look to 1st John 2:36. 2nd John verse7. The belief that is called "judeo"christianity is rather new. Its not been that long ago that people were just Christians. Now in order to be PC, you have to add the "judeo". Your jumping to the conclusion that Im anti-semetic is a perfect exaple of this. Jews have allways made it clear how they feel about Christ, the Talmud is very clear.

Bret

09-25-2004, 19:41

stooxie

09-25-2004, 19:42

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:31 PM
Not anti semite. Im just anti anything that is anti-Christ. To define what I mean by that look to 1st John 2:36. 2nd John verse7. The belief that is called "judeo"christianity is rather new. Its not been that long ago that people were just Christians. Now in order to be PC, you have to add the "judeo". Your jumping to the conclusion that Im anti-semetic is a perfect exaple of this. Jews have allways made it clear how they feel about Christ, the Talmud is very clear.
Ok, I see. You're saying that this combination is a way to categorize biblical religion without
really referring to either one, and thus not offending anyone.

Are you at least tolerant of other religions or does it fundimentally bug you that not all are
Christian? Actually, you don't have to answer in the interest of not starting a real out-of-control
spiral.

I just want to know that one's being active in his own faith does not have to mean
actively disliking that of others. Because, to me, that is ultimately unamerican.

-Stooxie

kravman4

09-25-2004, 19:42

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 03:58 PM
I dont want to fight, just encourage some thinking. ;)
Sorry if I came off a little hot there...I don't want to fight either, I just really like having spirited debate! ;)

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 20:02

Originally posted by Bret+Sep 26 2004, 01:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bret @ Sep 26 2004, 01:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:31 PM
Not anti semite.* Im just anti anything that is anti-Christ.* To define what I mean by that look to 1st John 2:36. 2nd John verse7.* The belief that is called "judeo"christianity is rather new.* Its not been that long ago that people were just Christians.* Now in order to be PC, you have to add the "judeo". Your jumping to the conclusion that Im anti-semetic is a perfect exaple of this.* Jews have allways made it clear how they feel about Christ, the Talmud is very clear.
Excuse me - what do you mean by this? :o

The Bible & all of the history books I’ve ever read have always told me Judaism predates Christianity? I mean even Jesus was a Jew - wasn’t he?

Please explain? [/b][/quote]
The Hebrew religion does pre-date Christianity. Therewas a captivity that took place in 745 bc in which the ten northern tribes went to ( and many from Judah)assyria. Afte that the House of Judah, which consited of the tribe of Benjiman and the tribe of Judah went into the Baylonian captivity. That did dot leave a vacume in the area known as Judea. Many folk of Cannanite, Edomite( of whom king Herod was one according to scripture) moved in. But because they lived in the area of Judea did not make them Israelites. But they were all referred to as "Jews". In Strong"s the word Jew can mean the following, of the tribe of Judah, or of Judea. Assuming every one in Judea was a Jew, would be like saying everyone in Kentucky is white. Which is not the case.

Was Jesus a Jew? According to scripture he was, as he is from the tribe of Judah. Where all of the Pharisees and Residents of Judea from the 12 tribes of Isreal? No. Christ said "My sheep hear my voice and follow me" Only Israel was ever refered to as sheep in scripture. This is best illustrated by the 1980 Jewish almanac, in the artical entitled "Identiy Crisis" It states in the first paragraph the following: "Strictly speaking, it is incorect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a "Hebrew".

If Herod was the king of judea, and the scripture says he was from an edomite (from Idumea) then there had to be many more there. And you know that Esau/Edom and Jacob had fought from the begining. Edom was also an enemy of God. God puts it like this: "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated"Malachi 1:2-3 For New testement Christians, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated"(Romans 9:13)

Well old Esau/Edom hates God now too, that why Herod wanted to kill him as a baby.

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 20:11

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 26 2004, 01:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 26 2004, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:31 PM
Not anti semite. Im just anti anything that is anti-Christ. To define what I mean by that look to 1st John 2:36. 2nd John verse7. The belief that is called "judeo"christianity is rather new. Its not been that long ago that people were just Christians. Now in order to be PC, you have to add the "judeo". Your jumping to the conclusion that Im anti-semetic is a perfect exaple of this. Jews have allways made it clear how they feel about Christ, the Talmud is very clear.
Ok, I see. You're saying that this combination is a way to categorize biblical religion without
really referring to either one, and thus not offending anyone.

Are you at least tolerant of other religions or does it fundimentally bug you that not all are
Christian? Actually, you don't have to answer in the interest of not starting a real out-of-control
spiral.

I just want to know that one's being active in his own faith does not have to mean
actively disliking that of others. Because, to me, that is ultimately unamerican.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
As far as being tolerant of other religions, I have to stick with my King on this one. This is where you become very policicaly incorrect, as did Christ. He said,"no one comes to the Father except though Me" They didnt like it, so they killed him. But He one uped them cause His grave is empty!! Praise be to the Lord.

Not all are His sheep, so you have to be tollerant. But every knee will bow!!!

Oh and its not allways been unamerican, but in todays society have have to like everbody, that is unless that person is a Christian. Then its ok to call him/her whatever you want, pubilicly and in private. Nobody has a problem with that.

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 20:15

Originally posted by kravman4+Sep 26 2004, 01:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kravman4 @ Sep 26 2004, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 03:58 PM
I dont want to fight, just encourage some thinking. ;)
Sorry if I came off a little hot there...I don't want to fight either, I just really like having spirited debate! ;) [/b][/quote]
No problem here. Im just glad to be able to discuss things like this. BTW I love your avatar. Very cool!

stooxie

09-25-2004, 20:53

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 06:11 PM
As far as being tolerant of other religions, I have to stick with my King on this one. This is where you become very policicaly incorrect, as did Christ. He said,"no one comes to the Father except though Me" They didnt like it, so they killed him. But He one uped them cause His grave is empty!! Praise be to the Lord.

Not all are His sheep, so you have to be tollerant. But every knee will bow!!!

Oh and its not allways been unamerican, but in todays society have have to like everbody, that is unless that person is a Christian. Then its ok to call him/her whatever you want, pubilicly and in private. Nobody has a problem with that.
That was a long-winded way of saying "not really," but that's ok.

As for being unamerican, the seperation of church and state may, in fact, not be written in any
of the founding documents but I'm pretty sure religious freedom is still a cornerstone of this
country. I don't think that is some neveau, liberal thinking there.

Since when has Christianity come under such attack from the populous, which is Chirstian anyway?
The gay priest thing? What? If Christianity is coming under attack it is probably due to the markedly
increased levels of proselytizing that seem to acompany events like 9/11.

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 21:04

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 26 2004, 02:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 26 2004, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 06:11 PM
As far as being tolerant of other religions, I have to stick with my King on this one.* This is where you become very policicaly incorrect, as did Christ.* He said,"no one comes to the Father except though Me"* They didnt like it, so they killed him.* But He one uped them cause His grave is empty!!* Praise be to the Lord.

Not all are His sheep, so you have to be tollerant.* But every knee will bow!!!

Oh and its not allways been unamerican, but in todays society have have to like everbody, that is unless that person is a Christian.* Then its ok to call him/her whatever you want, pubilicly and in private.* Nobody has a problem with that.
That was a long-winded way of saying "not really," but that's ok.

As for being unamerican, the seperation of church and state may, in fact, not be written in any
of the founding documents but I'm pretty sure religious freedom is still a cornerstone of this
country. I don't think that is some neveau, liberal thinking there.

Since when has Christianity come under such attack from the populous, which is Chirstian anyway?
The gay priest thing? What? If Christianity is coming under attack it is probably due to the markedly
increased levels of proselytizing that seem to acompany events like 9/11.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
Did Christ teach freedom of religion? I think so, but I may be wrong. I guess you could say he gave us the choice to be for Him or against Him is freedom, right? He didnt say "it dosnt matter what you believe" did he?

As far as "the gay preist thing" well the Christian bible and the Torah are pretty clear on that. Lev 18:22, Rom1:24, 1Corintians 5:12, and alot more...... You shall know them by their fruits, not because they are fruits. ;)

To answer your question a little more clearly this time. I am not tollerant. Are you tollerant of my entollerance? I am anti anything that is anti-Christ. I dont see how you can be a Christian and not be. Radical you say? Was Christ Radical? Are we not suposed to be like him? You answer this time. :lol:

Edited to add: Every knee will bow, whether you and I are tollerant or not. :D

kravman4

09-25-2004, 21:21

Swordslinger, thanks for the compliment! Here in Ramona, CA, we're being overrun by squirrels, I guess you could say that little guy would be our worst nightmare! :lol:

Anyway, back on topic....

Is anyone else getting a little lost in this debate? Maybe it's just me.... But it seems like we've kind of strayed from the original question. I'd love to jump in on this topic again, but it's a little difficult to determine which post to reply to!

I think one of the first things we should do is define our terms. Too often people debate on a subject but never get down to the real issues because they have failed to define there terms. A good example would be Swordslinger and I. We were both talking about "evolution" but neither of us defined what evolution meant!

So, here are some of the terms I think we should define before we go on in this debate. I'll post my reply to these questions and if you have any other terms you think need to be defined, then post 'em!

1. How do you define "evolution"?
2. What term do you use to refer to the belief that the "days" referred to in Genesis were in fact undetermined lengths of time?
3. Do you believe the whole Bible to be the inspired, flawless word of God? If not, where do you disagree?

Thats all I can think of right now. Maybe this will make the debate a little more focused! ;)

kravman4

09-25-2004, 21:34

Here's my answer to my post:

How do you define evolution?

Evolution is the hypothesis that life came from unliving organisms and evolved to present day man over millions of years.

2. What term do you use to refer to the belief that the "days" referred to in Genesis were in fact undetermined lengths of time?

Framework. This term is also used to describe those who believe that God used evolution to create the world.

Do you believe the whole Bible to be the inspired, flawless word of God? If not, where do you disagree?

Yes! I believe the written Word of God to inspired by the Holy Spirit - containing no flaw.

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 21:34

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 26 2004, 03:21 AM

1. How do you define "evolution"?
2. What term do you use to refer to the belief that the "days" referred to in Genesis were in fact undetermined lengths of time?
3. Do you believe the whole Bible to be the inspired, flawless word of God? If not, where do you disagree?

Thats all I can think of right now. Maybe this will make the debate a little more focused! ;)

It is evident that you are a wise man for makeing this suggestion. ;)

1. How do you define "evolution"? Man from apes
2. What term do you use to refer to the belief that the "days" referred to in Genesis were in fact undetermined lengths of time? Not sure, Could the seven day account be the time it took give Moses the creation account?
3. Do you believe the whole Bible to be the inspired, flawless word of God? If not, where do you disagree? Yes but are men flawless? We must try to trasnslate it from the correct language. Strong's helps but we have to remember that the King James Version was a "government approved" translation of the the day. Just as the New bibles today that do away with the reference to The Blood, call God "father/Mother" and refuses to differenciate between "darkness and light"
Some translation are perverted, really. But they still say "Holy Bible" on the cover of them.

It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter but the glory of kings to search it out. Somewhere in Proverbs? I think. :D

kravman4

09-25-2004, 21:51

I agree with you 100% about the difficulty in finding an accurate translation. I use the NIV which seems to do a good job of translating from the original texts.

The only thing I can say about the people who came up with the translations that pervert the gospel is that I would not want to be in there place on judgment day!

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 21:54

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 26 2004, 03:51 AM

The only thing I can say about the people who came up with the translations that pervert the gospel is that I would not want to be in there place on judgment day!
That deserves a Big Deep manly man AMEN BROTHER!!!!

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 21:56

Ill check back in after church. Time to snooze. Good talking to ya! :D

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 22:31

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 26 2004, 03:51 AM
I agree with you 100% about the difficulty in finding an accurate translation. I use the NIV which seems to do a good job of translating from the original texts.

The only thing I can say about the people who came up with the translations that pervert the gospel is that I would not want to be in there place on judgment day!
I have a suggestion for you. You can find a parralel bible that has 4 different translations side by side for comparing.

Mine has KJV, which was translated from the massoretic text,

NIV, I think they pulled from several texts,

New American Standard, Lot was translated fron the Septuigent, which at the time of Christ was being used because of the greek language that was in use. My Favorite! There is a Strong's Concordance for that one as well.

The Amplified Version, They too gather from alot of the text and really inhance the meaning of every word. I like it but it hurts my ears :D

I would suggest you get your hands on a copy of the Septuigent. Dont look for it in stores, let me know if your interested. You would be surprized what ole king james left out. Remember, he wrote it so that it would say what he wanted it to, but not change it enough to start a revolt. Kinda like they are doing Guns now, the ole frog in the pot thing.

GreenLantern

09-26-2004, 02:57

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 10:58 AM
After a poll and 34 pages on AR15.com, I was wondering if we have as many here that believe that their ancestors are apes.
Only God knows, if he's out there!

Sniper

09-26-2004, 07:37

THIS IS GOING TO BE A GOOD ONE!!!!

:sniper:

Swordslinger

09-26-2004, 08:53

Originally posted by Sniper@Sep 26 2004, 01:37 PM
THIS IS GOING TO BE A GOOD ONE!!!!

:sniper:
Thats what I thought, people are just not biteing. :lol:

Dorkface

09-26-2004, 23:24

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 25 2004, 07:17 PM
But to quote a famous Mel Gibson line from one of his lesser known movies;

“Ah cut it out – you’re making me all misty”… ;)

isnt that from Payback? :2guns:

Bret

09-27-2004, 07:18

Originally posted by Dorkface+Sep 26 2004, 09:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dorkface @ Sep 26 2004, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 07:17 PM
But to quote a famous Mel Gibson line from one of his lesser known movies;

“Ah cut it out – you’re making me all misty”…* ;)

isnt that from Payback? :2guns:[/b][/quote]
I might not have the "quote" exactly right. But that is the movie.

Movie had a great cast, don't ya think? :2guns:

Metaldoc

09-27-2004, 08:21

To me it takes more faith to believe every living thing in the world evolved from a murky gaseous pool of chemicals. Look at the wonderful, unbelievable diversity. Just stop and really look at this beautiful creation and tell me how you can not see the very handprint of God.

I am not going to get into a long drawn out theological debate. Too much is lost in those. It took many years for me, but once I opened my heart to the Holy Spirit, He entered it and filled me. Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission. His Grace is a gift and it is up to us to accept it.

What verse of what hymn we sing first, what order of service or how the liturgy is read, or on and on is man made bickering. Base your belief on the Bible, the inspired Word and it's Truth.

I will not hammer away at you about what you should believe. I will be glad to tell you why I do if you are interested. To me it is good news to be shared, but if you aren't interested, so be it. I try to live my life as a witness to others.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. He is the Risen Son of God. That is my belief and I shall not waver.

Metaldoc :usa:

Dorkface

09-27-2004, 09:14

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Sep 27 2004, 08:21 AM
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission. His Grace is a gift and it is up to us to accept it.
and that pretty much sums up my feelings on alot of organized religions... it seems like they try to use scare tactic and beat you in to accepting their point of view and then they pass around the collection tray and almost try to link the mount to you give to your being forgiven and make you feel bad if you cant offer very much. maybe things have changed since the many years ive last gone.

it also seems like since the church came to power during the middle ages using said tactics that they decided to keep using them since the middle management up to the pope have gotten power, infulance and lots of money. I've also heard from different places, i dont remember where, that were disscusing all of the different disciples and that they had written their own gospels but then they started talking about the fact that there was never one from jesus himself. and that it was believed that in fact the vatican has it locked up and wont let anyone see it because bascially said that you dont need to go churches and stuff like that inorder to worship. which if it were true would be a direct threat to the churches power. i wish i could remember where i heard or read that because it made alot of sence to me.

Bret:
yeah that was a great movie lol. its one of the few movies where you root for the bad guy because he was betraied by the even badder guys and dirty cops.

stooxie

09-27-2004, 09:29

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Sep 27 2004, 06:21 AM
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission.

Right, that's what people are for.

Crusades, proseletyzing, electing fundimentalist leaders, the list goes on. Millions
of people throughout history have been brutally murdered for not accepting
the Church.

No offense to you, I saw that you said you don't do that, but it does manifest itself is lots of ways.

I hear people all the time saying that this is a religious war (Iraq, etc), and Bush is the only one who get's it and his faith will carry us through, he is a religious leader, etc.

To anyone who isn't Christian it means this country is a total theocracy, and Christians
don't seem to mind that one bit (do they?). After all, the bible justifies it so it's all just doing God's work.

Theocracy IS NOT democracy.

-Stooxie

tri70

09-27-2004, 12:24

Evolution has not been proven yet has it? Even Darwin himself on his death bed said his theory had to many holes and impossibilities. I believe he even converted to Christianity on his death bed. I think I heard of the Law of Thermodynamics were everything breaks down to a lesser form. I believe in Creation for dogs are doing what dogs have always done, along with cats, birds, horses, and monkies.

I also believe that a person can only be truely restore when they have turned to Christ and asked for forgiveness and mercie. I was on a destructive path myself and should have been killed in a motorcycle wreck. I was trying to outrun the police and hit the back of a police car at over 100 mph. God was not thru with me yet though I had plenty of bills and tickets to pay for, I teach sunday school at a First Baptist Church.

I also just read a book "A table in the Presence" a story about the fighting 5th of the 1st battallion entry into Iraq in 2003. If you read this book your hair will tingle with amazement of how God protected them in a fierce battle for one of Sadam's palaces. They only lost 2 soliders in one of the worst battles of the war. A great book, I can't wait to personally speak to one of these soliders.

-tri

Havok

09-27-2004, 12:47

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission.

Not yet, but in the end days he will... make no mistake...

Please people do not get confused into thinking that God is a big cuddly teddy bear... or church...

God had demolished this world before in order to 'browbeat' us into showing our true faith. Take Noah and floods... Soddom and Gamoura ( Sp?) ... Revelations period.

yes, we must invite him in, but he won't just knock.

there is a verse that says " [He] will cause the world to believe a great lie"

now what lie does that mean? who knows?only God. But I have a slight idea it maybe that the lie is
That God is lovey-dovey... and that God accepts gays {He doesn't! Romans 1:26; Corinth I 6:9; Timothy I 1:9, Leviticus 18:22-30, 20:13; Mat 19:4-5; Jude 1:7}
God said, through the Holy Spirit, that the creation took 7 days. So it did.

Evolution occurs all the time, but we are not from apes. We as humans have grown in hieght(overall) in the 1800's average hieght was about 5'6" and now average hieght is around 5'9".
But as far as Apes are, other than having 4 limbs, there is no comparision... if you think that maybe there is, then i ask: Why not sloths too? or Koalas? or monkeys?

-=Brent=-

Bret

09-27-2004, 15:25

Originally posted by Havok@Sep 27 2004, 10:47 AM
Please people do not get confused into thinking that God is a big cuddly teddy bear... or church...

God had demolished this world before in order to 'browbeat' us into showing our true faith. Take Noah and floods... Soddom and Gamoura ( Sp?) ... Revelations period.

yes, we must invite him in, but he won't just knock.

<<SIP>>
-=Brent=-
My grandfather was a Presbyterian Minister. After seminary school he started preaching as a junior pastor in Oklahoma before moving to Pasadena California just before WW2.

With time he eventually he became the Senior Pastor of what would become the largest attended church in that city. In 1969 he retired for health concerns, but continued to write self help books and give sermons & speeches for the remainder of his life. I was lucky enough to attend many of his sermons over the years and upon his death in 1985 came into the position of his personal library and papers.

Along with all of his old books covering everything from textbooks on Greek Grammar to personally autographed works by the likes of Norman Vincent Peale (to name but a few) was all of his “hand written” sermons filed by date. I’ve scanned over them from time to time and thus far have not come across one speech or sermon that consisted of hell & damnation, fire & brimstone nor any reference to a vengeful god.

But should the Lord wish to lay his hand on the earth again – I am not afraid.

stooxie

09-27-2004, 18:02

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 27 2004, 01:25 PM
I’ve scanned over them from time to time and thus far have not come across one speech or sermon that consisted of hell & damnation, fire & brimstone nor any reference to a vengeful god.
Thankyou!!

Let me provide another take on this:

Christian or not, I just can't believe that the point of religion is to live in
fear of God. If you want to believe there are consequences for
being a jerk, great, but I can't picture a God who is just itching to bring
down the hammer on all who do not immediately stop and thank for
lord for not turning him into a grease spot at whim.

You see, what does scare me is that people who are afraid are,
by definition, more apt to do irrational things to aleve the fear. That's
Psyc 101, you don't have to be a phD to know that.

When people fear their God, they can be driven to do things they wouldn't
normally do, like kill. If you twiddle the terror alert every now and again
and keep the public in fear, you have no problems passing things like the
Patriot Act, which by all accounts is a blank check. (And you don't have to
be some bleeding heart liberal to see that.)

I am just trying to highlight that it sure seems to me that a religion that
inspires it's followers to do good does DO much more good than one that
simply scares them sh*tless.

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 21:37

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Sep 27 2004, 02:21 PM
Just stop and really look at this beautiful creation and tell me how you can not see the very handprint of God.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. He is the Risen Son of God. That is my belief and I shall not waver.

Metaldoc :usa:
Words of wisdom there boys. Another BIG, Hearty, MANLY MAN, AMEN BROTHER!!!!!! :D

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 21:45

Originally posted by Havok@Sep 27 2004, 06:47 PM
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission.

Not yet, but in the end days he will... make no mistake...

Please people do not get confused into thinking that God is a big cuddly teddy bear... or church...

God had demolished this world before in order to 'browbeat' us into showing our true faith. Take Noah and floods... Soddom and Gamoura ( Sp?) ... Revelations period.

yes, we must invite him in, but he won't just knock.

there is a verse that says " [He] will cause the world to believe a great lie"

now what lie does that mean? who knows?only God. But I have a slight idea it maybe that the lie is
That God is lovey-dovey... and that God accepts gays {He doesn't! Romans 1:26; Corinth I 6:9; Timothy I 1:9, Leviticus 18:22-30, 20:13; Mat 19:4-5; Jude 1:7}
God said, through the Holy Spirit, that the creation took 7 days. So it did.

Evolution occurs all the time, but we are not from apes. We as humans have grown in hieght(overall) in the 1800's average hieght was about 5'6" and now average hieght is around 5'9".
But as far as Apes are, other than having 4 limbs, there is no comparision... if you think that maybe there is, then i ask: Why not sloths too? or Koalas? or monkeys?

-=Brent=-
More words of wisdom spoken by Brent, I believe it is from the Word:

Ecclesiastes 12:13
".....Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 22:07

Originally posted by Havok@Sep 27 2004, 06:47 PM

there is a verse that says " [He] will cause the world to believe a great lie"

now what lie does that mean? who knows?only God. But I have a slight idea it maybe that the lie is
-=Brent=-
2nd Thessalonians 2:10-11
10".....because they did not love the truth so to be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send uopn them a deluding influence, so they might beleive that which is false."

That was NAS and in the notes it say it can be translated "the Lie"

The King James reads:"..God will send upon them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie"

That word delusion is #4106 in Strong's and it means, "decieve". God decieves when we refuse to recieve the truth of salvation. And when He decieves you, you can believe anything. Thats not the goodie two shoes God they teach in the churches today, is it? Any given Sunday you can go into "nearly" any church in the land and hear about how much God loves you, but selodome do we hear about how we ought to love Him.

The Lie, IMHO is the one told in the garden, "ye shall be as gods" But hey, we has a nation have bought into many lies because we "recieved not the truth". Because the truth is so hard to swallow. Truth cost us something, I believe it say somewhere in Proverbs or Ecc. "Buy truth, and do not sell it". Some are not willing to pay the price cause they think "babylon aint so bad". For now they say that anyway. ;)

kravman4

09-27-2004, 22:22

Ok, I don't mean to keep beating this subject to death, but variances in human height, color, eye-color, and what-not from generation to generation is not evolution? Evolution involves genetic change that is passed on from one generation to another. Although the "tall" gene is said to be passed along from generation to generation, when a short person is born, they are not the product of evolution! Rather, the child just received a "short" gene from one of the parents. Hypothetically, evolution could be a fish that "mutates", or has it's genes altered in such a way that it "grows" appendages, but it is not minor deviances from generation to generation.

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 22:25

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 28 2004, 04:22 AM
Ok, I don't mean to keep beating this subject to death,
Thats ok it is the subjrct at hand. :D

kravman4

09-27-2004, 22:29

Originally posted by stooxie@Sep 27 2004, 04:02 PM
Christian or not, I just can't believe that the point of religion is to live in
fear of God. If you want to believe there are consequences for
being a jerk, great, but I can't picture a God who is just itching to bring
down the hammer on all who do not immediately stop and thank for
lord for not turning him into a grease spot at whim.

When the Bible speaks of "the fear of the Lord", it is not speaking of fear as in "fear of the dark". Rather, it is referring to a mixture of reverence, honor, and realization that we serve an all-knowing, all-present, all-powerful God.

No, we Christians don't go around quakin' in our boots, we just realize that all our actions are under the scrutiny of God. You can't hide. You can't run. If you do run, you'll only die tired! ;)

Oh, and BTW, God doesn't turn people into grease-spots just because they disobey his law. :lol: Quite often, the wicked live long, prosperous lives. They receive their temporary reward on this earth, but they receive eternal damnation in hell. God's timing is not our timing. Leave the planning to Him; He can see the big picture! B)

kravman4

09-27-2004, 22:31

Well, I'm gonna hit the sack. I'll probably get a chance to write again tomorrow. TTYL and God bless! (The Christians anyways! ;) :lol: )

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 22:58

Originally posted by kravman4+Sep 28 2004, 04:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kravman4 @ Sep 28 2004, 04:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-stooxie@Sep 27 2004, 04:02 PM
Christian or not, I just can't believe that the point of religion is to live in
fear of God. If you want to believe there are consequences for
being a jerk, great, but I can't picture a God who is just itching to bring
down the hammer on all who do not immediately stop and thank for
lord for not turning him into a grease spot at whim.

When the Bible speaks of "the fear of the Lord", it is not speaking of fear as in "fear of the dark". Rather, it is referring to a mixture of reverence, honor, and realization that we serve an all-knowing, all-present, all-powerful God.

No, we Christians don't go around quakin' in our boots, we just realize that all our actions are under the scrutiny of God. You can't hide. You can't run. If you do run, you'll only die tired! ;)

Oh, and BTW, God doesn't turn people into grease-spots just because they disobey his law. :lol: Quite often, the wicked live long, prosperous lives. They receive their temporary reward on this earth, but they receive eternal damnation in hell. God's timing is not our timing. Leave the planning to Him; He can see the big picture! B) [/b][/quote]
WOW!! :o More words of wisdom!!!

But Scripture does show some "grease spots". :lol: What we are all to forgetful of is that the Bible is a79% national message, and 21% personal. But look at what can happen if there are just ten "rightouse" men in the land!!! So it goes both ways.

Yes we have all seen the wicked prosper, but what we dont see is what happens in his personall life that is hidden from the public eye. I have a personal example of a friend of mine. What happened in his personal life was a tragedy that was worth NONE of his earthly gains.

God does forgive for breaking his law, but the law is no longer for rightousness sake, according to Paul. And according to Christ He came,"not to destroy the law, but to fulfill" The law is still there, just like gravity is a Law of God, one that shows us no predudejust. I know, on 4-28-04 this year I fell from a 16' ladder and it has changed my life. I will be healed, for '"By His strippes we are healed" But I broke the Law of gravity, and it cost me a little. But Ive gained time with my family and with my King, Christ Jesus! Ive had several so called doctors tell me I lucky to be alive, I tell them we are lucky everyday to wake alive, thats why we need to repent and get the books straight before we go to bed every night.

I want to say again that I really appreciate you guys, Ive done some wittnessing in other places that needed it the most(cough)AR15.com(cough) And it tough. The people over there, the Creationist and Chistians of all sorts were waylayed. By the athiest, Darwinist ect... It got ugly, really.

Its nice to knock the dirt off you shoes and come over here speak to folk like you.

For those of you that are His,
May the Lord bless you and keep you,
Make His face shine upon you and be gracious unto you,
May He lift up His countenance upon you, and grant you peace.

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 23:06

Howdy Dorkface!!!

Dorkface

09-27-2004, 23:12

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 27 2004, 10:29 PM
Quite often, the wicked live long, prosperous lives. They receive their temporary reward on this earth, but they receive eternal damnation in hell. God's timing is not our timing. Leave the planning to Him; He can see the big picture!
hmm... maybe thats why nothing has been easy me or my family. I guess we can only take things as they come and try to be a good person. If there is a God I just hope im doing everything that he sent me here to do...

Dorkface

09-27-2004, 23:13

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 27 2004, 11:06 PM
Howdy Dorkface!!!
Hello. :) :usa:

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 23:26

Originally posted by tri70@Sep 27 2004, 06:24 PM

I also just read a book "A table in the Presence" a story about the fighting 5th of the 1st battallion entry into Iraq in 2003.
I would like to read that book, There are a great many battle storis that will my your hair stand up. The I thik of is Boers in Southafrica, They had cicled the wagans and there was no hope left but prayer. The Zulu's were on the march, they could be heard for miles. Terrifieing sound they say.

After prayer that decided that if they save there ammo they may, oh wait.....what? The next line came over the hill and thier were thousands. They began to fight and the battle was long, and miraculously the Zulus were beaten back. None of the English Boers was injured, they praised the King Jesus. A few year later, someone had interviewd the one of the chiefs of the Zulu raiders, and he was asked,"how was it possible for the Boers to push back such a large army of your best warriors? The chief replied, " It wasnt the Boers shooting from the wagons that did all of the damage, It was the Boers in the clouds, shooting from the clouds"

He will prepare a table for us in the midst of our enemies, for sure.

jszy

09-28-2004, 00:21

some real good minds at work here.... you're all proving the question by just debating...

swordslinger- "man from apes" isn't an encompassing definition of "evolution" however it is somewhere near an example of what "they" would have you accept as "fact". It has to be drawn back to irreducible complexity, and apart from that, just how did LIFE emerge from nonlife?

Theoretically it is possible, for random molecules to come together by chance into a self-replicating sequence of amino acids. About as possible as taking dumptruck full of individual typewritten individual letters, dumping them out on the ground and having them fall in the exact text of the Encyclopedia Britannica with no typos. (One misplaced letter would invalidate the individual result..., try again!) Theoretically possible, yes, but not in the time frame that we humans understand as "TIME" from the beginning of the universe (another BIG ???)

There are a bunch of elite super braniacs out there who were fully convinced that the entire existence of everything was due to mere chance. The smarter they got (are getting, and it's taken a thousand years or so) the more they are forced to accept that life, the universe, and everything, is the way it is because it was DESIGNED to be that way. Now they are finding that when they publish their conclusive data of design, they are losing their big important university jobs.

I think part of God's plan is to have humanity finally reach a level of knowledge about our surroundings where we can finally say, THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR THIS ALL TO HAPPEN, EXCEPT THAT SOMEONE WANTED IT!

So, evolution? Yes, sort of, but only because He set it up that way! Creation, in the literal 7 days of Genesis? Yes, sort of, because that's the best translation we have of what the author understood to have happened. God's hand is constantly at work in what He created. It would be silly to think He took a "week" to make this then just decided to leave it alone and not pay attention any more. None of us would take a great deal of time and effort to, say, build a great homestead and not continually work on it and tweak things to keep it in the condition we want it to be. Or, write a giant wonderful software program and not revise and fix and patch and tweak this and that over and over and over. After all, it says we were made in His image(I would include the nonphysical parts of us too...)

well, haven't typed this much in many moons. And to think, I was just stopping by to find out about aftermarket magazines.... :)

Goeth27

09-28-2004, 00:56

i have yet to find in the bible the part about dinasours, which we all know were here.

tri70

09-28-2004, 06:36

Look in the book of Job when they talk of the behemoth, a very large creature and sounds bigger than an elephant.

Bret

09-28-2004, 07:29

Originally posted by Goeth27@Sep 27 2004, 10:56 PM
i have yet to find in the bible the part about dinasours, which we all know were here.
Thats is an easy one to explain. Here is how it was once explained to me by one “non-denominational” pastor.

"He actually tried to tell me that all of the scientific evidence dug up to date that proved the existence of Dinosaurs or other prehistoric evolutionary life forms was just a hoax brought about by the Devil." :blink:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Bret

09-28-2004, 07:40

Originally posted by tri70@Sep 28 2004, 04:36 AM
Look in the book of Job when they talk of the behemoth, a very large creature and sounds bigger than an elephant.
Not challenging you or saying you are wrong only that I went to Dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com). When I plugged in “Behemoth” here is what I got back.

be•he•moth (b -h m th, b -m th)
n.
1. Something enormous in size or power.
2. often Behemoth A huge animal, possibly the hippopotamus, described in the Bible.

#2 is kind'a interesting, don't ya think?

All I'm saying is that a "Behemoth" it don't sound like a T-rex or a raptor to me. :D

:beer:

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 08:20

Originally posted by Goeth27@Sep 28 2004, 06:56 AM
i have yet to find in the bible the part about dinasours, which we all know were here.
The Dinosaur thing is one reason I believe the earth is much, much older than 6 thousand years. And like I said, many good men that otherwise wouls believe are turned away from the gospel because of the non-sense that they teach.

In the King James, Gen 1:28, It says of man,.."Be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth and subdue it..."

The word subdue in Strong's is #3533 and means to " Conquer..." The best I can tell from the context the word, "replenish" mean to .."replenish" it is the same hebrew word used in the story of the flood. #4390

That indicates that there was a creation of sorts that was here before. I guess I will get flamed by my bretheren now? :(

2 gun

09-28-2004, 09:52

Something I didn't see mentioned is what type of evelution.There are two theoretical types the first is MICRO and it is a science fact with things like some Iguanas being able to live in salt water when there cousins can't or a type of bird that may differ a little from the same kind of bird in another enviroment.The second kind of Evolution is only THEORETICAL it is called MACRO. It basically means big changes like ape to man, dinosaur to bird this type has never been witnessed in history only treroised . The Problem with Evolution is many people like those that make school text books will tell you evolution is real proven and reputable without separating the two kinds of evelution.This is no accident this is a purposeful omission done with the intent of disproving Creation the Bible and furthering the Earth type religions. This is also the reason most Christians are so upset about the subject.
Imagine if I took the Proven law of gravity and said I have a theory that if society doesn't loose weight we will get so heavy the earth will fall out of orbit, Sounds stupid I know. Lets also say I call the theory of gravity. Then lets say in 100 years a group of ultra lean veggians start telling everyone (The proven theory of gravity will destroy the world if we don't all become veggians.) This is how the truth is turned to support an unproven theroy.I am amazed at how far this theory has gone given it's total absences in fossil records and DNA testing. What This type of Evolution teaching does for me is proves there are those what want to recreate our society to a liberal Wica type of tree huggers.

tri70

09-28-2004, 10:02

They have found dinosaur and human footprints fossilized together in the some rock! You do not hear of it main stream media because this blows the million yrd dino theory out the window. Carbon is not accurate at all, +/- 1 million yrs on this item, +/- 1000 years with this item?? In the China history books they talk of a dino type dragon creature in 400 a.d.

I did find a reference for the dino like creature in the book of Job
Job 40 behemoth (http://www.justbible.com/Chapters/B18C040.htm)

this sounds like a very big creature big than anything we have running around today.

-tri

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 10:09

Originally posted by 2 gun@Sep 28 2004, 03:52 PM
The Problem with Evolution is many people like those that make school text books will tell you evolution is real proven and reputable without separating the two kinds of evelution.
Very True!! Christians need to realize that we have enemies that walk on two legs and are here for the sole purpose to "kill, steal, and destroy" I have a book in my possesion,(on loan now) that was writen by a man named Wichell. That book was a text book in the mid-1800s. The title? "Man, and then Adam, The Pre-Adamites."

Our history is being stolen and replaced by Humanist/Communist. Yeah, Ive got my tin fiol hat on. I believe what The King has to say on this matter. We allway say "they are doing this","They are doing that". Its time we figured out who the "theys" are.

Thanks for letting me rant, but when it come to text books that are causeing His little ones to stumble, I hold the same position as Christ. The millstone is needed!!!!

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 10:31

Originally posted by tri70@Sep 28 2004, 04:02 PM
They have found dinosaur and human footprints fossilized together in the some rock! You do not hear of it main stream media because this blows the million yrd dino theory out the window. Carbon is not accurate at all, +/- 1 million yrs on this item, +/- 1000 years with this item?? In the China history books they talk of a dino type dragon creature in 400 a.d.

I did find a reference for the dino like creature in the book of Job
Job 40 behemoth (http://www.justbible.com/Chapters/B18C040.htm)

this sounds like a very big creature big than anything we have running around today.

-tri
Sounds like a Brontosaures(me caint speell :lol:) dosnt it?

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

AR15_Fanatic

09-28-2004, 11:20

Whatever happened to saying "I DON'T KNOW!" Why is that so hard for Christians to say? Insteand, they blinly go forward with tte same tired stories bout God making the world in 6 days - exactly six 24-hr periods - then resting on the seventh, Adam, Eve, the Snake, Cain, Abel, and so on.......Well, because the Bible says so. But so what? This Bible is a religious, not a scientific and very vaguely historical document, and trying to use it as such is fruitless and somewhat dangerous to the health of society. One need only to look at the Balkans, Northern Ireland and the middle east to see how much of a failure that a fanatical theocracy. And lets not leave the Christians out of this. The Spanish Inquision (which incidentally was NOTHING compared to the Protestant witch hunts of the era). The Crusades killed millions of Muslims in a quest to establish a european hold of the Holy Land all "For the glory of God" - Everyone's apparent justification for genocide for self- or political gain.

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 11:32

Originally posted by AR15_Fanatic@Sep 28 2004, 05:20 PM
Whatever happened to saying "I DON'T KNOW!" Why is that so hard for Christians to say? Insteand, they blinly go forward with tte same tired stories bout God making the world in 6 days - exactly six 24-hr periods - then resting on the seventh, Adam, Eve, the Snake, Cain, Abel, and so on.......Well, because the Bible says so.
If your referring to my previous posts, you should go back and read. If you are referring to the stuff taught in the mainstream churches, Amen. :lol: If you talking about the scientist, "who hath said in his heart, " there is no God" then Amen to that too. :lol:

There will be a day when all is revealled and EVERY knee will bow.

cjgemm

09-28-2004, 11:55

another measurement?

light years (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html)

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 12:11

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 28 2004, 05:55 PM
another measurement?

light years (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html)
That reminds me of church hynm that I just read about. Speaking of "light years", how did the writer of this church hynm comprehend the term "light years" in the 1700s?

And have the bright immensities
Received our risen Lord,

Where light-years frame the Pleiades
And point Orion's sword?

Do flaming suns his footsteps trace
Through corridors sublime,

The Lord of interstellar space
And Conqueror of time?

The heaven that hides Him from our sight
Knows neither near nor far:

An altar candle sheds its light
As surely as a star;

And where His loving people meet
To share the gift divine,

There stands He with unhurrying feet,
And Heaven's splendors shine.

Rhetorical Questions:

What are the bright immensities?

How did Handel know about light-years? In the mid-1700s????

Why did Handel(the writer of the hynm, call Jesus Christ, "The Lord of interstellar space and conquer of time?"

A heaven 'that knows neither near nor far'.
Something else to think about. :lol: Thinking is good, not enough of it is done today.

stooxie

09-28-2004, 12:28

Originally posted by AR15_Fanatic@Sep 28 2004, 09:20 AM
Whatever happened to saying "I DON'T KNOW!" Why is that so hard for Christians to say? Insteand, they blinly go forward with tte same tired stories bout God making the world in 6 days - exactly six 24-hr periods - then resting on the seventh, Adam, Eve, the Snake, Cain, Abel, and so on.......Well, because the Bible says so. But so what? This Bible is a religious, not a scientific and very vaguely historical document, and trying to use it as such is fruitless and somewhat dangerous to the health of society. One need only to look at the Balkans, Northern Ireland and the middle east to see how much of a failure that a fanatical theocracy. And lets not leave the Christians out of this. The Spanish Inquision (which incidentally was NOTHING compared to the Protestant witch hunts of the era). The Crusades killed millions of Muslims in a quest to establish a european hold of the Holy Land all "For the glory of God" - Everyone's apparent justification for genocide for self- or political gain.
Now THAT's what I give an Amen to.

It's because of fear, and really fear of death. If I do the right thing I'll be taken
care of in the afterlife. It's the basis of every religion. Take the fear away and
what's left?

Now, the way I see it, there is one HUGE body of evidence to support that and it
is exacltly what many of these posts keep saying. Every time you question the
bible or an extreme believe their one response is "Well you'll pay by rotting in
hell" or "When the messiah comes, all will be judged." Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Also, I've asked very religious people point blank "Well, what about man's
responsiblity to his fellow man, and being a good person?"

Those people get confused and say "But it's not about your interaction with
other people, it's about your relationship with God." And there you have it, the
ULTIMATE excuse for all earthly corruption. I'm good with God so I must
be ok.

When I see people saying things like "I listen to my King and glory be to
him!" I see a second part that noone ever includes which is a much
quieter "Did you hear that, God? You're not going to send me to hell
are you? Phew!"

I wish people would put a tenth as much energy into being decent human
beings as they do into getting into heaven.

-Stooxie

cjgemm

09-28-2004, 13:25

How did Handel know about light-years? In the mid-1700s????

Did he know about all 18,000,000,000 of them?

AR15_Fanatic

09-28-2004, 13:27

It's because of fear, and really fear of death. If I do the right thing I'll be taken
care of in the afterlife. It's the basis of every religion. Take the fear away and
what's left?

Now, the way I see it, there is one HUGE body of evidence to support that and it
is exacltly what many of these posts keep saying. Every time you question the
bible or an extreme believe their one response is "Well you'll pay by rotting in
hell" or "When the messiah comes, all will be judged." Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Also, I've asked very religious people point blank "Well, what about man's
responsiblity to his fellow man, and being a good person?"

Those people get confused and say "But it's not about your interaction with
other people, it's about your relationship with God." And there you have it, the
ULTIMATE excuse for all earthly corruption. I'm good with God so I must
be ok.

When I see people saying things like "I listen to my King and glory be to
him!" I see a second part that noone ever includes which is a much
quieter "Did you hear that, God? You're not going to send me to hell
are you? Phew!"

I wish people would put a tenth as much energy into being decent human
beings as they do into getting into heaven.

-Stooxie

There is a lot to be said about this. This is used to discourage any questioning of religious teachings - after all who would risk eternal damnation by speaking against this? And for you religious fanatics out there, I AM NOT AN AGENT OF SATAN TRYING TO LEAD YOU ASTRAY! Actually, I can't see anything wrong with what Jesus taught people and his followers. The problem is this. Religion (and, but not limited to, Christianity) attracts people who want to boss others around and it gives them a justification to do so. Ever wonder why they like the term for a follower of Christ to be a "sheep"? Sheep never question authority, do whatever they are told, cannot think for themselves and have no mind other than the collective - they'll even EAT themselves to death if not stopped! We're not sheep, we're human beings! Contrary to popular belief, you WONT GO TO HELL IF YOU QUESTION WHAT YOUR PASTOR TOLD YOU IN CHURCH! AND YOU WON'T IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT! But these people cannot deal with it!

This kind or religious peer pressure is very powerful. After all how many lives have been lost from everything from an innocent passerby attending a service at a cult to brainwashed people hijacking airplanes to be used as suicide cruise missiles against the WTC? And all because at the core we seem to need some kind of constant in our lives and evey one of their questions about life or their purpose answered right NOW! And the thing is, what if ther IS no answer? "Everything is meaningless!, the teacher says.....". So said King Solomon in Ecclesiastes in the Bible. And so worrying about all this stuff is useless. Maybe we should just eat, drink, and be merry (another biblical quote from Eccleasties), and not worry so much about where we all came from? I believe in God but if, in fact, life evolved from an Amoeba, I'm not phased by it. And what happens if you die and, in fact, there is no afterlife. Nobody can scientifically prove that one exists (though I have faith that it does). Do you realize how much time and enerey from your life was then wasted worrying about a threat that did not exist? How many more good things could you have done with that time and how much better you would have felt if that time had not been wasted WORRYING and being AFRAID!

Dorkface

09-28-2004, 15:08

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 28 2004, 11:55 AM
another measurement?

light years (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html)
um... a light year is a measurement of distance not time....

as for the hynm maybe he was using light years to mean good years or something. a time of happyness or something.

Goeth27

09-28-2004, 15:18

see, if dinasours never existed i would beleive in creation, but why does the bible not state anything about dinasours specifically, or spend much time on something so big? It's all unclear to me still maybe because im young, but until dino's don't exist or the bible says something about them specifically and not something that could get mixed with a elephant or any reptile, im not too sure what to beleive at this point, everything points to eloluvtion in my eyes.

tinman

09-28-2004, 15:18

As usual relegion becomes a very touchy subject. Simple christianity joins people while relegion seperates. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does creationism. There are too many unanswered questions, missing links and contradictions of the first two laws of nature. Namely that a living organism cannot derive from non-living.
science does prove creationism
Science also proves the probability of one single cell developing through evolution to be the equivalent of putting a blind man in the sahara desert , and having him pull out the same randomly placed grain of sand three times. I have the mathamatical equation somewhere for this.
I would rather believe something documented and proven such as the Bible. inspired by God and maybe a little contaminated by man.
The day I die, the only thing that would have really mattered are relationships. Relationships with family,friends,community and most importantly God.
If I didnt know this to be true then I would find evolution to be appealing. I would have no one to answer to, at least until the day I died.

cooter

09-28-2004, 15:36

maybe the reason that dinosaures arnt talked about in the bible is that God had a reason not to tell us? :huh:

Taquito971

09-28-2004, 15:40

Originally posted by Goeth27@Sep 28 2004, 01:18 PM
see, if dinasours never existed i would beleive in creation, but why does the bible not state anything about dinasours specifically, or spend much time on something so big? It's all unclear to me still maybe because im young, but until dino's don't exist or the bible says something about them specifically and not something that could get mixed with a elephant or any reptile, im not too sure what to beleive at this point, everything points to eloluvtion in my eyes.
Dinosaurs always kind of intrigued me. My wife was raised in Sunday school and private Christian schools and even attends a Christian college so I trust her point of view on religious aspects. She was looking for an answer for me and came up with this website:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

You may find it interesting.

Brian

tinman

09-28-2004, 16:29

Im sensing some confusion between natural selection and evolution. Dinosaurs existed and were created by God. Larger ones died due to overeating, disease and were not able to adapt to a changing envronment. All a part of natural selection.
Evolutionists make a giant step and go from the improbability of lifeless mass creating a live organism by chance to natural selection.
So did man come from an ape? God created man, man sinned, was ashamed and knew he was naked. Apes dont know what sin is for they are not created in Gods image, they have no shame(ever been to a zoo?) Are naked and proud of it.
It would be easier to be an ape with no responsabilities like taking care of the garden of eden or taking care of Gods creation. A person has to be ape to think that man came from an ape. Thats my story and Im stick-in to it.

Havok

09-28-2004, 17:28

A person has to be ape to think that man came from an ape. Thats my story and Im stick-in to it.

LOL AMEN....... ! :beer:

cjgemm

09-28-2004, 18:10

QUOTE (cjgemm @ Sep 28 2004, 11:55 AM)
another measurement?

light years

um... a light year is a measurement of distance not time....

as for the hynm maybe he was using light years to mean good years or something. a time of happyness or something.

A light year is a constant. @ the speed of light it would take an X amount of time to tavel a certain distance. ie light from the most distant object astronomers can see took 18,000,000,000 years to get here. d=rt

tinman

09-28-2004, 18:18

I find loose comments like"I believe in God" to be misleading. Remember that Lucifer(the evil one) was cast out of heaven. He too believes in God. So The question remains "Have you accepted salvation through grace?"
There seems to be an attack on organized relegion. I know that sitting in church on sundays doesnt doesnt make me anymore of a christian than sitting in the garage makes me a car. But quite often you will find me there, for that is where I can take advantage of the inspiration of others. Sounds like some have attended some churches that suffer from religiosity, find another.

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 18:37

Originally posted by Dorkface+Sep 28 2004, 09:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dorkface @ Sep 28 2004, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-cjgemm@Sep 28 2004, 11:55 AM
another measurement?

light years (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html)
um... a light year is a measurement of distance not time....

as for the hynm maybe he was using light years to mean good years or something. a time of happyness or something. [/b][/quote]
Yeah but what caught my eye was that term in conjuction with"interstellar space"

Not that its inspired, just intereresting.

As far as why didnt he mention 18,00000000000000000000 or what ever? Heck I dont know. But I do know that people who believe in the "theory" want EXACT, ROCK SOLID, Undeniable proof, when they do not have enough proof themselves to get past the label of "theory".

What many people dont realize is that some people ," just aint gona get it" Ethier because it is not time for for them yet, they are just to darned "stiff necked", or maybe just maybe, Christ dosnt want them to get it.

Mark Chapter 4:11-12
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

We as Christians have the command to teach and explain the gospel plan of salvation. But we are also told that at some point we need to knock the dust off of our shoes and move on.

Sometimes argueing religion with a non-beliver is like wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it. :lol: And sometimes it pays off. Remember, it is only a remnant they will be saved. But He will save anyone that obeys, everybody just wont. Once you have been told to gospel plan, the responsibility becomes yours. There will no longer be the excuse, "but I didnt know".

He is a great,merciful, forgiving and a wrathfull God. The same yesterday, today and forever.

2 gun

09-28-2004, 21:42

Atrocities where done in the name of all religions even in the name of non-religous religions.Hitler,Gangas Kon, Stollin,as far back as history will date atrocities have been done. The reasion isn't religion but the following of a mad man. Sometimes that madman is religious and sometimes not. As a Christian I am taught to do unto others as I want to be done it's not just a saying but a way of life. I am strengthened from my beliefs I have never tried to convert someone to Christ out of fear if someone does this they are either uneducated in the Bible or practicing a false religion. I will also never tell them God Is love and everything they do is OK because that is not the truth and if someone tells you different the to are either uneducated in the Bible or in a fall religion . Christ freed me from my sin and guides me even when I don't listen He also gives me peace in life not because I know I will have an after life but because I know my life here has a purpose and I have a perfect friend here to stand at my side no matter the challenge.

I stand ready on the bridge and fear nothing, I am comforted in knowing I have done all things in Christ name and in that I am well satisfied.

The lord God has appointed my time to die and nothing I can do will change that. So then why should I fear the enemy for if it is my time I will die well believing in Christ.

Does this sound like men who want you to be afraid with them?

jszy

09-28-2004, 22:59

cjgemm you are flat wrong. A light-year is a measurement of distance as was ponited out to you before. It is the distance light travels (through a vaccuum) in a year.

What if all life "evolved" from an amoeba, so what? That's fine, but the EVOLUTION question must go back further, what did the amoeba "evolve" from? LIFE from NONLIFE is the ultimate evolutionary quandary... The probability of it happening (it takes a book to explain it... look up a book called "The Case for a Creator", it's a good one.) by chance is as close to impossible as you can get.

In human understanding of our surroundings, it's perfectly clear that there were dinosaurs around long before people ever were. Why is that contradictory to Christianity? God clearly has a sense of humor and many of our human attributes (curiosity, frustration, willingness to "remodel" things, on and on) are surely weak reflections of His attributes. So dinosaurs were here before us, so what? He had dinos making a go of it here on earth for a while, they didn't really work out, so He got rid of most of them and started in on a new project. Anyone remember BASIC, COBOL, DOS, ??

The whole "Evolution vs Creation" argument is not a "Christians vs Everyone Else" battle. It's a Creator vs noncreator argument. Only when we move forward to the understanding of Trinity does it involve Christianity. Keep it at the basic level and make progress. When you make progress on this issue and keep an open mind about things, the only logical conclusion is that life is DESIGNED, not a random collection of atoms that all of a sudden have a heartbeat. (or whatever)

Occam's razor, irreducible complexity, Cambrian explosion. The only reason the debate still rages is because the braniacs REFUSE to accept the most logical conclusion. If you were walking through the desert and came upon a hillside covered in rocks and sand, and saw that a bunch of rocks were arranged in letters that spelled out "KILROY WAS HERE", would you stand there and wonder "Golly-gee, I wonder how those rocks all just ended up forming themselves into those letters???" or would you stand there and wonder "Why did Kilroy come all the way out here to spell his name in rocks?"

cjgemm

09-29-2004, 05:29

cjgemm you are flat wrong. A light-year is a measurement of distance as was ponited out to you before. It is the distance light travels (through a vaccuum) in a year.

Dist=Rate X Time

Thank you for re-inforcing what I said.

Knowing that the frutherest star we can see is 18B light years away, wouldn't it be safe to say that there was at least 18B years for that light to reach us?

kravman4

09-29-2004, 07:26

Knowing that the frutherest star we can see is 18B light years away, wouldn't it be safe to say that there was at least 18B years for that light to reach us?

This can be a tough one to wrestle with, but here's how I view it. I believe that God created the world ~8,000 years ago. He made "the heavens" (the stars and other celestial beings) at the same time. Why would God have made stars that people wouldn't have been able to see for 18 billion years? I think God made the stars and the light in between so that the inhabitants of earth could see the stars he had created. No sense in making stars we'd never see! (Unless of course he made them purely for His own enjoyment)

Taquito,

Your wife stumbled on a gold mine. Answers in Genesis is full of practical information supporting "Intelligent Design". I've been a subscriber to their newsletter (magazine) for many years....they're excellent reading material! If you like, pm me with your address and I'll send you a copy.

Taquito971

09-29-2004, 07:36

On the stars issue. My wife made an excellent point last night when we were discussing this on the road. Basically, it is my wife's view that God created earth already matured. He made Adam a man, not a child. He made trees that were already full grown so that Adam could eat the fruit. He made animals already matured, rather than needing constant care. Why not make the stars visible and everything else?

Brian

cjgemm

09-29-2004, 08:02

Taquito971

09-29-2004, 08:34

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 29 2004, 06:02 AM
Why not?

Show me the proof.
Proof of what?

Brian

Swordslinger

09-29-2004, 08:42

Originally posted by jszy@Sep 29 2004, 04:59 AM
cjgemm you are flat wrong. A light-year is a measurement of distance as was ponited out to you before. It is the distance light travels (through a vaccuum) in a year.

What if all life "evolved" from an amoeba, so what? That's fine, but the EVOLUTION question must go back further, what did the amoeba "evolve" from? LIFE from NONLIFE is the ultimate evolutionary quandary... The probability of it happening (it takes a book to explain it... look up a book called "The Case for a Creator", it's a good one.) by chance is as close to impossible as you can get.

In human understanding of our surroundings, it's perfectly clear that there were dinosaurs around long before people ever were. Why is that contradictory to Christianity? God clearly has a sense of humor and many of our human attributes (curiosity, frustration, willingness to "remodel" things, on and on) are surely weak reflections of His attributes. So dinosaurs were here before us, so what? He had dinos making a go of it here on earth for a while, they didn't really work out, so He got rid of most of them and started in on a new project. Anyone remember BASIC, COBOL, DOS, ??

The whole "Evolution vs Creation" argument is not a "Christians vs Everyone Else" battle. It's a Creator vs noncreator argument. Only when we move forward to the understanding of Trinity does it involve Christianity. Keep it at the basic level and make progress. When you make progress on this issue and keep an open mind about things, the only logical conclusion is that life is DESIGNED, not a random collection of atoms that all of a sudden have a heartbeat. (or whatever)

Occam's razor, irreducible complexity, Cambrian explosion. The only reason the debate still rages is because the braniacs REFUSE to accept the most logical conclusion. If you were walking through the desert and came upon a hillside covered in rocks and sand, and saw that a bunch of rocks were arranged in letters that spelled out "KILROY WAS HERE", would you stand there and wonder "Golly-gee, I wonder how those rocks all just ended up forming themselves into those letters???" or would you stand there and wonder "Why did Kilroy come all the way out here to spell his name in rocks?"
I bebelive it is desribed by the intelegencia as the "uncaused first cause". Something started it. ;)

Swordslinger

09-29-2004, 08:52

Originally posted by 2 gun@Sep 29 2004, 03:42 AM
Christ freed me from my sin and guides me even when I don't listen He also gives me peace in life not because I know I will have an after life but because I know my life here has a purpose and I have a perfect friend here to stand at my side no matter the challenge.

I stand ready on the bridge and fear nothing, I am comforted in knowing I have done all things in Christ name and in that I am well satisfied.

The lord God has appointed my time to die and nothing I can do will change that. So then why should I fear the enemy for if it is my time I will die well believing in Christ.

WOW!!!! :D Truth!!! Listen up "ye blind guides", that gag on a gnat and swallow a bowling ball.

A very good wittness for The King.

tri70

09-29-2004, 11:00

Here is another link about the human footprints with the dinosaur footprints.
footprints (http://members.aol.com/paluxy2/wilker5.htm) There is alot of debate on this and is study by creationist science. The Bible tells us that Adam named all the beast and birds. To find footprints and human bones with the dinos is very interesting to think about. I did a search on the dino footprints and seen this is in Glendale, TX. Maybe if someone is close they can go check it out.

-tri

Dorkface

09-29-2004, 14:24

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 29 2004, 05:29 AM
cjgemm you are flat wrong. A light-year is a measurement of distance as was ponited out to you before. It is the distance light travels (through a vaccuum) in a year.

Dist=Rate X Time

Thank you for re-inforcing what I said.

Knowing that the frutherest star we can see is 18B light years away, wouldn't it be safe to say that there was at least 18B years for that light to reach us?
ok using the formula you have there DISTANCE = rate X time. a light year is always used to discribe distance or advancement. IE "Captain we are 10 light years away from vulcan". or "Their reaseach is lightyears ahead of us" which means they are futher along. If you flip the equation around to TIME = distance x rate that means you are going somewhere. you never hear anyone say "I need to get to bed, i have to be at work in a couple of miles" or " theirs only a few feet left before the ref calls a delay of game". when someone talkes about how long it has talken light to get to the earth from a star it seems like its a measurement of time. but its not. its just easier to say vega is one light year away vs vega is 1039887632487912345798123498789236 miles away. sorta like scientific notation.

This can be a tough one to wrestle with, but here's how I view it. I believe that God created the world ~8,000 years ago. He made "the heavens" (the stars and other celestial beings) at the same time. Why would God have made stars that people wouldn't have been able to see for 18 billion years? I think God made the stars and the light in between so that the inhabitants of earth could see the stars he had created. No sense in making stars we'd never see! (Unless of course he made them purely for His own enjoyment)

what if God created them for life on other planets in other galaxeys to look at? hmm... what if god did create this planet 8000 years ago, BUT what if he made the entire universe aswell as other galexies and life forms before he made this one? sorta like adding on to your house or something like that.

does everyone here believe that humans are the only "intelegent" life out there?

cjgemm

09-29-2004, 14:44

If you flip the equation around to TIME = distance x rate that means you are going somewhere.

It dosen't work that way.

D=R X T

R=D/T

T=D/R

If you could travel @ 186,000 miles per/sec, it would take you 18B years to get to the furterest star from our sun.

You can travel 60 MPH in your car and if you had to go 60 miles it would take you 60 minutes to get there.

Swordslinger

09-29-2004, 14:55

Originally posted by Dorkface@Sep 29 2004, 08:24 PM

does everyone here believe that humans are the only "intelegent" life out there?
I certainly dont. Scripture does not address it directly, but there are some refferences that have been implicated by some as examples of space craft. The "chariot of fire" that is mentioned can easily be interpreted as "millstone" according to Strong's Hebrew Concordance. A millstone is round, which correlates whith cave drawings and other thing that refer to what we have called,"flying saucers". Ezekiel's wheel is another good example.

That will surely draw flames from my brothers in Christ, but I said it anyway. Not that I would be the one to know, but all will be revealed in time.

kravman4

09-29-2004, 23:09

That will surely draw flames from my brothers in Christ, but I said it anyway. Not that I would be the one to know, but all will be revealed in time.

Probably only from the Mormons (of which I am not). ;) :D

On the stars issue. My wife made an excellent point last night when we were discussing this on the road. Basically, it is my wife's view that God created earth already matured. He made Adam a man, not a child. He made trees that were already full grown so that Adam could eat the fruit. He made animals already matured, rather than needing constant care. Why not make the stars visible and everything else?

Another excellent point!

swill269

09-29-2004, 23:18

:o
what was our appendix for? it evolved from something to nothing. ;)
:cool:

gossman

09-30-2004, 00:11

Swill, the appendix was made to keep the beemer payments for the docs from lapsing. :o

Goeth27

09-30-2004, 00:19

i blame Bush.

j/k

Bret

09-30-2004, 07:18

Nope! The truth is that the appendix (not unlike the dinosaurs) is just another part of the huge elaborate plot by the Devil to confuse us. ;)

But if you must know – I blame Kerry! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 07:37

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 29 2004, 09:18 PM
:o
what was our appendix for? it evolved from something to nothing. ;)
:cool:
There is a school of thougth that says that is where some of the toxins that are pulled from your other organs go to. Which is why when/if it ruptures there are significant problems. It's only theory at this point though.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v...i1/appendix.asp (http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i1/appendix.asp)

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/...n1_appendix.asp (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/v3n1_appendix.asp)

And just to support it with a scientific reference:
http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cf...tID=3&topicID=3 (http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=0002A56A-62A5-1C72-9EB7809EC588F2D7&catID=3&topicID=3)

Just because the media say it isn't good for anything doesn't mean it isn't useful.
Brian

swill269

09-30-2004, 07:52

:o
gossman,
you win, hands down, a new beemer is on it's way to you. :lol: how is that new marlin treating you? are you ready to get rid of it yet? :lol:

taquito971,
it ruptures from infection. it was used back when we ate food raw with bones, dirt, and other extreme roughage. the appendix was like a second stomach for the real rough stuff. as time passed we learned to cook and wash our food and lost the need for such an organ. a few more centuries and it may be all gone. :eek:

the 2 creation mag articles do not seem to be written by doctors and the 3rd one is by a vet. all articles are speculation with no proof and the theory is admittedly not widely accepted by the professional community. the fact that the apes have a very similar organ while the other animals have something not, is also more of an evolutionary example than creation.
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 08:00

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 30 2004, 05:52 AM
taquito971,
it ruptures from infection. it was used back when we ate food raw with bones, dirt, and other extreme roughage. the appendix was like a second stomach for the real rough stuff. as time passed we learned to cook and wash our food and lost the need for such an organ. a few more centuries and it maybe all gone. :eek:
:cool:
You speak so matter-of-factly, were you there? Because that's not what the scientists say. Did you even check out the links?

Brian

cjgemm

09-30-2004, 08:10

You speak so matter-of-factly, were you there? Because that's not what the scientists say. Did you even check out the links?

Now you want proof where none is to be had.

swill269

09-30-2004, 08:26

:o
taquito971,
you rushed me on your rebuttal, yes i read the links. ;)
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 08:31

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 30 2004, 06:10 AM
You speak so matter-of-factly, were you there? Because that's not what the scientists say. Did you even check out the links?

Now you want proof where non is to be had.
Realistically, there is no proof on either side. Scientists do believe that the appendix does have a use today. People who believe it is an ancient organ no longer used argue that it has been "pressed" into this duty due to an inactivity with it's primary function. Doesn't make much sense to me but you can make your own judgements. Above all else though, to state as fact that the appendix is no longer used is wrong. Across the board it is understood that the appendix does something. The debate comes in where we decide if it is performing it's designed function or a function it randomly started performing.

Brian