Evolution, Creation, or Both? [Archive]

kravman4

09-25-2004, 13:06

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light, God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning - the first day.

Genesis 1:1-5

Seems pretty clear to me that God created the world and all it's inhabitants in six, twenty-four hour days and then rested on the seventh.

Don't you think that if it really took hundreds or thousands of years to create the earth, the Bible would say so?

Where's the indication that God didn't mean "real" 24-hour days?

Do you think God is not capable of creating the world in seven 24-hour days?

The Hewbrew word used for "day" in Genesis was used throughout the rest of the Old Testament. Does that mean that we can't take any day literally in the Old Testament?

If we deny the veracity of the first verse of the Bible, why should we take the rest literally?

Moses (writer of Genesis) obviously thought that God meant 24-hour days. The fourth commandment, regarding the work-week and setting aside time to honor God, reads:

"...for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." Exodus 20:11

Following the reasoning of 1000-day-age thinking (the idea that a day could have actually been 1000 or more years), how can we interpret Exodus 20:11? The fourth commandment uses Genesis 1:1-5 as an example for a 7-day week stating, "...for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day."

Are we to assume that maybe we are supposed to work 6, 1000-day-long periods, and then rest 1, 1000-day-long period?

Do you think that we would be able to survive in such conditions? I believe in the French Revolution, an effort was made by the French to distance themselves from any Biblical standard, the French tried to change the week from seven days to ten days. Men and animals could not take the strain of the extra three days. Gotta have a 7-day week!

And as for this:
There were obviously enough people around for Cain to build a city for and find a wife.
We don't neccessarily know if Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's first children, now do we? Also, it was not unlawful for a man to marry his sister before The Law was given to Moses. (don't get me started on this subject unless you wanna talk about genetics! :confused: ) Lastly, Adam lived 937 years. I doubt he only had four or five kids! :eek: ;)

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 13:51

Was there man here before Adam? Im not the only Christian to believe this. In fact the people who espouse the creation teaching in the "judeo" christian churches are the biggest evolutionist of all! They have all races "evolving" from Adam's race after the flood. There is evidence that clearly shows all three racial groups existing just a short time after the flood. I trurley dont believe the flood was worldwide. The word use as "earth" and "whole earth and world" has been translated more times to say"land".

Then there is the non-sense of Cannan being turned black??? If I were a black man, that would offend me. The word Adam in Strong's is #120, ie man, it is taken from the same word#119 which means, to turn rosey, to turn flush, to show blood in the face. In Gen 5: it states clearly that the book was of the "generations" of Adam. #8435 in Strong's and it mean "decent" ie. family"

The above teachings are not PC. I dont claim to know much, but I believe that all will be revealed when the King allowes it.

Not to start a flame war, but to all those men that have decided to give up on Christianity, there are answers out there that harmanize the creation story and the scientific evidence. No the "churhianity" group will not accept it because they will probaly lose the 501-c3 and fat Joe banker will stop titheing cause he can no longer claim it on his taxes. (now that was a run-on sentance)

jeclif

09-25-2004, 15:32

creation trough evolution <_<

kravman4

09-25-2004, 15:44

Was there man here before Adam? Im not the only Christian to believe this.

Death did not enter into the world until the fall of man. How then is it possible that God "used" evolution to accomplish his purpose? Wouldn't that mean that there would have been death before death entered the world? It doesn't make sense!

There is evidence that clearly shows all three racial groups existing just a short time after the flood.

Shem, Ham, and Japheth (spelling?) were Noah's three sons. All mankind has come from one of these three men. Other than Noah's immediate family, all the rest were killed in the flood. Nothing wrong there.

Then there is the non-sense of Cannan being turned black??? If I were a black man, that would offend me. The word Adam in Strong's is #120, ie man, it is taken from the same word#119 which means, to turn rosey, to turn flush, to show blood in the face. In Gen 5: it states clearly that the book was of the "generations" of Adam. #8435 in Strong's and it mean "decent" ie. family"

What point are you trying to make?

I truley dont believe the flood was worldwide.

If the flood wasn't worldwide, then what was it's extent? Scientists speculate that some "cataclysmic event" might have separated the continents. A world wide flood would qualify. Evidence suggests that there was once massive flooding and great movement of water. Would you agree that the Grand Canyon was formed by the flood? If so, then how did the water get all the way over there if the flood was only regional? (middle east) This pretty much comes down to whether or not you are willing to take God at his word. God said he sent a flood that covered the earth. His Word is enough for me.

Bret

09-25-2004, 15:53

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 25 2004, 11:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 25 2004, 11:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 09:49 AM
IMHO – If the earth was created in 7 days.

Who can truly say what is a day in the in the eyes of the Lord.

My $0.2
Now that's about the smartest thing I've ever heard on the subject.

-Stooxie[/b][/quote]
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.

Mainly because I’m just of the opinion that it’s a bit arrogant of us to think that we can fully comprehend “time” from the Lord’s perspective.

That said – I understand that I could be wrong, but I tend to think that as long as it might seem to us that we are here on earth. It is probably but a millisecond (conceptually speaking) to a celestial deity. Especially one that was here before time began and will remain so - long after this little speck of dirt we call earth is so much cosmic dust.

Kind of a deep subject I know. Please forgive me if I offended anybody. But that’s just how I feel on the subject. I guess the only way we will ever know for sure is when we are standing before St. Peter at the Pearly Gates.

Until that "TIME" (pardon the pun) - God Bless the USA!
:usa:

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 16:58

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 25 2004, 10:44 PM

[QUOTE]There is evidence that clearly shows all three racial groups existing just a short time after the flood.

Shem, Ham, and Japheth (spelling?) were Noah's three sons. All mankind has come from one of these three men. Other than Noah's immediate family, all the rest were killed in the flood. Nothing wrong there.

That, my freind is evolution. All men are not the same phsyicaly, and I dont just mean skin color.

As far as the flood, there is evidence of a world wide flood, I just dont think it was noah;s flood and if you look up the words that were tranlated from the Hebrew it donsnt leave it cut and dry.

I know very well where you are coming from, but good men are leaveing the church because of the PC teachings in order to make everyone feel good.

As for the reference to Strong's, it is clear the Adam was of one particular race. I have personal freinds that have done missionary work in Africa over the coarse of five generations and none of them turned black because of their geographic location.

Dont get me wrong, Im not challenging the Word of God, I believe it is inspired cover to cover and sometimes I wonder about the cover. :lol: But what I am challenging is the modern "judeo" christian teaching that all men come from one particular race. And that Noah put every species on the face of the earth on a boat that we specificly know what the size was. Genisis 6:4 says that "There were giants in thoses days; and also after that" We know of one line of giants that made it through the flood, the famous Goliath. ??

I dont want to fight, just encourage some thinking. ;)

stooxie

09-25-2004, 17:07

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 25 2004, 02:53 PM
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.
whatsa matter? Can't you just accept the fact that some nutcase like myself
sided with you? ;)

I am glad to see people here actually trying to correlate scientifc findings with
biblical scripture. At the very least folks seem to think it could have taken a
a decent amount of time.

I like that. Shows a coming together of faith and scientific fact* and that people
are willing to be open minded.

:beer:

-Stooxie

*Some people feel that there is no fact unless it it's the bible. Fine,
substitute whatever word you like.

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 17:22

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 26 2004, 12:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 26 2004, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 02:53 PM
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.
whatsa matter? Can't you just accept the fact that some nutcase like myself
sided with you? ;)

I am glad to see people here actually trying to correlate scientifc findings with
biblical scripture. At the very least folks seem to think it could have taken a
a decent amount of time.

I like that. Shows a coming together of faith and scientific fact* and that people
are willing to be open minded.

:beer:

-Stooxie

*Some people feel that there is no fact unless it it's the bible. Fine,
substitute whatever word you like. [/b][/quote]
Creation and science can be harmanized completely. Its man that is not smart enough to figure it out, and Im the dumbest one of the bunch. Its when the "judeo" christian churches take everything completely litteral, when we dont speak completely litteral, we speak both. And the Word of God is written in both, litteral and metaphoricaly. Revelation is a perfect example. Another good example is the story in Genesis of the cursing of Cannan. It says that he was cursed because Ham "looked upon his fathers nakedness", but why curse Cannan? If you study futher, such as Levitcus 18 you will find that "looked upon his father's nakedness" is a Hebrew figure of speach that means sleeping with your father's wife. If that is the case, then we can see why Cannan was cursed, he was a genetic misfit.

If you look at Haley's Bible Handbook in the section about the archelogical finds, you will see that the Cannanites were sexual perverts, and were really big on child sacrifice.

Do we have a culture today that pushes porno in your face every time we turn on the TV? Do we have an allmost religous zealotry that supports abortion?

Maybe, we still have Cannanite's with us today. According to scripture we do.

If you are wondering why Im not giveing Chapter and verse, its because I want you to look it up. :D

Bret

09-25-2004, 17:33

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 25 2004, 04:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 25 2004, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 02:53 PM
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.
whatsa matter? Can't you just accept the fact that some nutcase like myself
sided with you? ;)
[/b][/quote]
Oh no, as weird as it might feel - you & I agreeing on something. :D I just wanted to make sure that you & others understood what I was try'n to say that’s all.

I am glad to see people here actually trying to correlate scientifc findings with
biblical scripture. At the very least folks seem to think it could have taken a
a decent amount of time.

I like that. Shows a coming together of faith and scientific fact* and that people
are willing to be open minded.

:beer:

-Stooxie

Surely a few hundred years ago you & I probably would have been excommunicated from the church or worst put to death in a most heinous way (ala the Spanish inquisition) for thinking the way we do on this subject. But personally I think that everything fits better if we concede that there are many things we all can’t completely explain away with science or religion - that’s all.

Regardless if the Lord is the all knowing, all seeing & all loving God that I believe he is – I would hope he would forgive me if I have been wrong on any level.

Again God Bless the USA!
:usa:

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 17:44

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 26 2004, 12:33 AM
[QUOTE
Regardless if the Lord is the all knowing, all seeing & all loving God that I believe he is – I would hope he would forgive me if I have been wrong on any level.

Again God Bless the USA!
:usa:
He is! And He will! See my sig line. Submit to the Only King!!

Dorkface

09-25-2004, 17:55

there needs to be another option.

D. I dunno...

I can wrap my head around almost any idea out there and have confedence about the subject. but when it comes to religion i just dunno... whenever i try and think about it my brain just shuts down and i feel like im in a white void.... whenever i was in church as a little boy it always felt silly. about the only time it never feels silly is if im up in the mountains in the middle of nowhere and try to think about it. Ill do anything and go anywhere with my girlfiend except when she goes to church... I just feel like i would be offending everyone there since i dont have unwaivering faith.

Am i just weird? :blink:

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 18:02

No your not just wierd. Most men have the same problem because Christianity has been neutered. The casterated version is called "judeo"christianity. That why the seats are filled with women and fewer men.

They should have a great big pair of casterateing snips like they use on Bulls instead of the cross hanging behind the pulpit.

I tried to add D. I dont know, but Im not smart enough to edit the poll.

stooxie

09-25-2004, 18:06

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 25 2004, 04:33 PM
Surely a few hundred years ago you & I probably would have been excommunicated from the church or worst put to death in a most heinous way (ala the Spanish inquisition) for thinking the way we do on this subject.
Right, and isn't that aweful?

I like to think that religion inspires mankind to do great things and be good to each
other.

I hate to think that the goal of religion is to instill fear in people, as it did in those times.
That's why I have a hard time with the phrases "to fear God" and "God fearing." I'd rather do
the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not out of fear of being smitten.

I'm sure you'll be forgiven for using the noodle that you've been blessed with.

-Stooxie

stooxie

09-25-2004, 18:13

Originally posted by Dorkface@Sep 25 2004, 04:55 PM
there needs to be another option.

D. I dunno...

I can wrap my head around almost any idea out there and have confedence about the subject. but when it comes to religion i just dunno... whenever i try and think about it my brain just shuts down and i feel like im in a white void.... whenever i was in church as a little boy it always felt silly. about the only time it never feels silly is if im up in the mountains in the middle of nowhere and try to think about it. Ill do anything and go anywhere with my girlfiend except when she goes to church... I just feel like i would be offending everyone there since i dont have unwaivering faith.

Am i just weird? :blink:
I think that sentiment is extremely common these days. Many people feel somewhat abandoned or betrayed by organized religion.

Here's a fact that I know few people can claim: I attended BOTH Catholic and Hebrew school at the
SAME time. It's a really loooooooong story :D but let me tell you, I got it coming and going. Both sides
were equally abusive.

Basically the issue for me is that organized religion doesn't have much to do with spirituality any more and
a lot to do with going through the motions. The scandals in the Catholic church, the cattiness of Judaism,
blah, blah. It's very numbing.

So, while I do still stick to a faith, I really just try to be a decent human being and hope that that earns me
some points with some higher being.

-Stooxie

stooxie

09-25-2004, 18:16

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:02 PM
No your not just wierd. Most men have the same problem because Christianity has been neutered. The casterated version is called "judeo"christianity. That why the seats are filled with women and fewer men.

They should have a great big pair of casterateing snips like they use on Bulls instead of the cross hanging behind the pulpit.

I tried to add D. I dont know, but Im not smart enough to edit the poll.
Ok, I need some clarification on this one because to me this just sounds anti-semetic and masogynistic.

Please explain to me how that's not the case.

-Stooxie

Bret

09-25-2004, 18:17

I'm sure you'll be forgiven for using the noodle that you've been blessed with.

-Stooxie

Thanks Stooxie,

But to quote a famous Mel Gibson line from one of his lesser known movies;

“Ah cut it out – you’re making me all misty”… ;)

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 18:31

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 26 2004, 01:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 26 2004, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:02 PM
No your not just wierd. Most men have the same problem because Christianity has been neutered.* The casterated version is called "judeo"christianity.* That why the seats are filled with women and fewer men.

* They should have a great big pair of casterateing snips like they use on Bulls instead of the cross hanging behind the pulpit.

I tried to add D. I dont know, but Im not smart enough to edit the poll.
Ok, I need some clarification on this one because to me this just sounds anti-semetic and masogynistic.

Please explain to me how that's not the case.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
Not anti semite. Im just anti anything that is anti-Christ. To define what I mean by that look to 1st John 2:36. 2nd John verse7. The belief that is called "judeo"christianity is rather new. Its not been that long ago that people were just Christians. Now in order to be PC, you have to add the "judeo". Your jumping to the conclusion that Im anti-semetic is a perfect exaple of this. Jews have allways made it clear how they feel about Christ, the Talmud is very clear.

Bret

09-25-2004, 18:41

stooxie

09-25-2004, 18:42

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:31 PM
Not anti semite. Im just anti anything that is anti-Christ. To define what I mean by that look to 1st John 2:36. 2nd John verse7. The belief that is called "judeo"christianity is rather new. Its not been that long ago that people were just Christians. Now in order to be PC, you have to add the "judeo". Your jumping to the conclusion that Im anti-semetic is a perfect exaple of this. Jews have allways made it clear how they feel about Christ, the Talmud is very clear.
Ok, I see. You're saying that this combination is a way to categorize biblical religion without
really referring to either one, and thus not offending anyone.

Are you at least tolerant of other religions or does it fundimentally bug you that not all are
Christian? Actually, you don't have to answer in the interest of not starting a real out-of-control
spiral.

I just want to know that one's being active in his own faith does not have to mean
actively disliking that of others. Because, to me, that is ultimately unamerican.

-Stooxie

kravman4

09-25-2004, 18:42

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 03:58 PM
I dont want to fight, just encourage some thinking. ;)
Sorry if I came off a little hot there...I don't want to fight either, I just really like having spirited debate! ;)

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 19:02

Originally posted by Bret+Sep 26 2004, 01:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bret @ Sep 26 2004, 01:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:31 PM
Not anti semite.* Im just anti anything that is anti-Christ.* To define what I mean by that look to 1st John 2:36. 2nd John verse7.* The belief that is called "judeo"christianity is rather new.* Its not been that long ago that people were just Christians.* Now in order to be PC, you have to add the "judeo". Your jumping to the conclusion that Im anti-semetic is a perfect exaple of this.* Jews have allways made it clear how they feel about Christ, the Talmud is very clear.
Excuse me - what do you mean by this? :o

The Bible & all of the history books I’ve ever read have always told me Judaism predates Christianity? I mean even Jesus was a Jew - wasn’t he?

Please explain? [/b][/quote]
The Hebrew religion does pre-date Christianity. Therewas a captivity that took place in 745 bc in which the ten northern tribes went to ( and many from Judah)assyria. Afte that the House of Judah, which consited of the tribe of Benjiman and the tribe of Judah went into the Baylonian captivity. That did dot leave a vacume in the area known as Judea. Many folk of Cannanite, Edomite( of whom king Herod was one according to scripture) moved in. But because they lived in the area of Judea did not make them Israelites. But they were all referred to as "Jews". In Strong"s the word Jew can mean the following, of the tribe of Judah, or of Judea. Assuming every one in Judea was a Jew, would be like saying everyone in Kentucky is white. Which is not the case.

Was Jesus a Jew? According to scripture he was, as he is from the tribe of Judah. Where all of the Pharisees and Residents of Judea from the 12 tribes of Isreal? No. Christ said "My sheep hear my voice and follow me" Only Israel was ever refered to as sheep in scripture. This is best illustrated by the 1980 Jewish almanac, in the artical entitled "Identiy Crisis" It states in the first paragraph the following: "Strictly speaking, it is incorect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a "Hebrew".

If Herod was the king of judea, and the scripture says he was from an edomite (from Idumea) then there had to be many more there. And you know that Esau/Edom and Jacob had fought from the begining. Edom was also an enemy of God. God puts it like this: "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated"Malachi 1:2-3 For New testement Christians, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated"(Romans 9:13)

Well old Esau/Edom hates God now too, that why Herod wanted to kill him as a baby.

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 19:11

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 26 2004, 01:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 26 2004, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 05:31 PM
Not anti semite. Im just anti anything that is anti-Christ. To define what I mean by that look to 1st John 2:36. 2nd John verse7. The belief that is called "judeo"christianity is rather new. Its not been that long ago that people were just Christians. Now in order to be PC, you have to add the "judeo". Your jumping to the conclusion that Im anti-semetic is a perfect exaple of this. Jews have allways made it clear how they feel about Christ, the Talmud is very clear.
Ok, I see. You're saying that this combination is a way to categorize biblical religion without
really referring to either one, and thus not offending anyone.

Are you at least tolerant of other religions or does it fundimentally bug you that not all are
Christian? Actually, you don't have to answer in the interest of not starting a real out-of-control
spiral.

I just want to know that one's being active in his own faith does not have to mean
actively disliking that of others. Because, to me, that is ultimately unamerican.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
As far as being tolerant of other religions, I have to stick with my King on this one. This is where you become very policicaly incorrect, as did Christ. He said,"no one comes to the Father except though Me" They didnt like it, so they killed him. But He one uped them cause His grave is empty!! Praise be to the Lord.

Not all are His sheep, so you have to be tollerant. But every knee will bow!!!

Oh and its not allways been unamerican, but in todays society have have to like everbody, that is unless that person is a Christian. Then its ok to call him/her whatever you want, pubilicly and in private. Nobody has a problem with that.

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 19:15

Originally posted by kravman4+Sep 26 2004, 01:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kravman4 @ Sep 26 2004, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 03:58 PM
I dont want to fight, just encourage some thinking. ;)
Sorry if I came off a little hot there...I don't want to fight either, I just really like having spirited debate! ;) [/b][/quote]
No problem here. Im just glad to be able to discuss things like this. BTW I love your avatar. Very cool!

stooxie

09-25-2004, 19:53

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 06:11 PM
As far as being tolerant of other religions, I have to stick with my King on this one. This is where you become very policicaly incorrect, as did Christ. He said,"no one comes to the Father except though Me" They didnt like it, so they killed him. But He one uped them cause His grave is empty!! Praise be to the Lord.

Not all are His sheep, so you have to be tollerant. But every knee will bow!!!

Oh and its not allways been unamerican, but in todays society have have to like everbody, that is unless that person is a Christian. Then its ok to call him/her whatever you want, pubilicly and in private. Nobody has a problem with that.
That was a long-winded way of saying "not really," but that's ok.

As for being unamerican, the seperation of church and state may, in fact, not be written in any
of the founding documents but I'm pretty sure religious freedom is still a cornerstone of this
country. I don't think that is some neveau, liberal thinking there.

Since when has Christianity come under such attack from the populous, which is Chirstian anyway?
The gay priest thing? What? If Christianity is coming under attack it is probably due to the markedly
increased levels of proselytizing that seem to acompany events like 9/11.

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 20:04

Originally posted by stooxie+Sep 26 2004, 02:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Sep 26 2004, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 06:11 PM
As far as being tolerant of other religions, I have to stick with my King on this one.* This is where you become very policicaly incorrect, as did Christ.* He said,"no one comes to the Father except though Me"* They didnt like it, so they killed him.* But He one uped them cause His grave is empty!!* Praise be to the Lord.

Not all are His sheep, so you have to be tollerant.* But every knee will bow!!!

Oh and its not allways been unamerican, but in todays society have have to like everbody, that is unless that person is a Christian.* Then its ok to call him/her whatever you want, pubilicly and in private.* Nobody has a problem with that.
That was a long-winded way of saying "not really," but that's ok.

As for being unamerican, the seperation of church and state may, in fact, not be written in any
of the founding documents but I'm pretty sure religious freedom is still a cornerstone of this
country. I don't think that is some neveau, liberal thinking there.

Since when has Christianity come under such attack from the populous, which is Chirstian anyway?
The gay priest thing? What? If Christianity is coming under attack it is probably due to the markedly
increased levels of proselytizing that seem to acompany events like 9/11.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
Did Christ teach freedom of religion? I think so, but I may be wrong. I guess you could say he gave us the choice to be for Him or against Him is freedom, right? He didnt say "it dosnt matter what you believe" did he?

As far as "the gay preist thing" well the Christian bible and the Torah are pretty clear on that. Lev 18:22, Rom1:24, 1Corintians 5:12, and alot more...... You shall know them by their fruits, not because they are fruits. ;)

To answer your question a little more clearly this time. I am not tollerant. Are you tollerant of my entollerance? I am anti anything that is anti-Christ. I dont see how you can be a Christian and not be. Radical you say? Was Christ Radical? Are we not suposed to be like him? You answer this time. :lol:

Edited to add: Every knee will bow, whether you and I are tollerant or not. :D

kravman4

09-25-2004, 20:21

Swordslinger, thanks for the compliment! Here in Ramona, CA, we're being overrun by squirrels, I guess you could say that little guy would be our worst nightmare! :lol:

Anyway, back on topic....

Is anyone else getting a little lost in this debate? Maybe it's just me.... But it seems like we've kind of strayed from the original question. I'd love to jump in on this topic again, but it's a little difficult to determine which post to reply to!

I think one of the first things we should do is define our terms. Too often people debate on a subject but never get down to the real issues because they have failed to define there terms. A good example would be Swordslinger and I. We were both talking about "evolution" but neither of us defined what evolution meant!

So, here are some of the terms I think we should define before we go on in this debate. I'll post my reply to these questions and if you have any other terms you think need to be defined, then post 'em!

1. How do you define "evolution"?
2. What term do you use to refer to the belief that the "days" referred to in Genesis were in fact undetermined lengths of time?
3. Do you believe the whole Bible to be the inspired, flawless word of God? If not, where do you disagree?

Thats all I can think of right now. Maybe this will make the debate a little more focused! ;)

kravman4

09-25-2004, 20:34

Here's my answer to my post:

How do you define evolution?

Evolution is the hypothesis that life came from unliving organisms and evolved to present day man over millions of years.

2. What term do you use to refer to the belief that the "days" referred to in Genesis were in fact undetermined lengths of time?

Framework. This term is also used to describe those who believe that God used evolution to create the world.

Do you believe the whole Bible to be the inspired, flawless word of God? If not, where do you disagree?

Yes! I believe the written Word of God to inspired by the Holy Spirit - containing no flaw.

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 20:34

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 26 2004, 03:21 AM

1. How do you define "evolution"?
2. What term do you use to refer to the belief that the "days" referred to in Genesis were in fact undetermined lengths of time?
3. Do you believe the whole Bible to be the inspired, flawless word of God? If not, where do you disagree?

Thats all I can think of right now. Maybe this will make the debate a little more focused! ;)

It is evident that you are a wise man for makeing this suggestion. ;)

1. How do you define "evolution"? Man from apes
2. What term do you use to refer to the belief that the "days" referred to in Genesis were in fact undetermined lengths of time? Not sure, Could the seven day account be the time it took give Moses the creation account?
3. Do you believe the whole Bible to be the inspired, flawless word of God? If not, where do you disagree? Yes but are men flawless? We must try to trasnslate it from the correct language. Strong's helps but we have to remember that the King James Version was a "government approved" translation of the the day. Just as the New bibles today that do away with the reference to The Blood, call God "father/Mother" and refuses to differenciate between "darkness and light"
Some translation are perverted, really. But they still say "Holy Bible" on the cover of them.

It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter but the glory of kings to search it out. Somewhere in Proverbs? I think. :D

kravman4

09-25-2004, 20:51

I agree with you 100% about the difficulty in finding an accurate translation. I use the NIV which seems to do a good job of translating from the original texts.

The only thing I can say about the people who came up with the translations that pervert the gospel is that I would not want to be in there place on judgment day!

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 20:54

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 26 2004, 03:51 AM

The only thing I can say about the people who came up with the translations that pervert the gospel is that I would not want to be in there place on judgment day!
That deserves a Big Deep manly man AMEN BROTHER!!!!

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 20:56

Ill check back in after church. Time to snooze. Good talking to ya! :D

Swordslinger

09-25-2004, 21:31

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 26 2004, 03:51 AM
I agree with you 100% about the difficulty in finding an accurate translation. I use the NIV which seems to do a good job of translating from the original texts.

The only thing I can say about the people who came up with the translations that pervert the gospel is that I would not want to be in there place on judgment day!
I have a suggestion for you. You can find a parralel bible that has 4 different translations side by side for comparing.

Mine has KJV, which was translated from the massoretic text,

NIV, I think they pulled from several texts,

New American Standard, Lot was translated fron the Septuigent, which at the time of Christ was being used because of the greek language that was in use. My Favorite! There is a Strong's Concordance for that one as well.

The Amplified Version, They too gather from alot of the text and really inhance the meaning of every word. I like it but it hurts my ears :D

I would suggest you get your hands on a copy of the Septuigent. Dont look for it in stores, let me know if your interested. You would be surprized what ole king james left out. Remember, he wrote it so that it would say what he wanted it to, but not change it enough to start a revolt. Kinda like they are doing Guns now, the ole frog in the pot thing.

GreenLantern

09-26-2004, 01:57

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 25 2004, 10:58 AM
After a poll and 34 pages on AR15.com, I was wondering if we have as many here that believe that their ancestors are apes.
Only God knows, if he's out there!

Sniper

09-26-2004, 06:37

THIS IS GOING TO BE A GOOD ONE!!!!

:sniper:

Swordslinger

09-26-2004, 07:53

Originally posted by Sniper@Sep 26 2004, 01:37 PM
THIS IS GOING TO BE A GOOD ONE!!!!

:sniper:
Thats what I thought, people are just not biteing. :lol:

Dorkface

09-26-2004, 22:24

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 25 2004, 07:17 PM
But to quote a famous Mel Gibson line from one of his lesser known movies;

“Ah cut it out – you’re making me all misty”… ;)

isnt that from Payback? :2guns:

Bret

09-27-2004, 06:18

Originally posted by Dorkface+Sep 26 2004, 09:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dorkface @ Sep 26 2004, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 07:17 PM
But to quote a famous Mel Gibson line from one of his lesser known movies;

“Ah cut it out – you’re making me all misty”…* ;)

isnt that from Payback? :2guns:[/b][/quote]
I might not have the "quote" exactly right. But that is the movie.

Movie had a great cast, don't ya think? :2guns:

Metaldoc

09-27-2004, 07:21

To me it takes more faith to believe every living thing in the world evolved from a murky gaseous pool of chemicals. Look at the wonderful, unbelievable diversity. Just stop and really look at this beautiful creation and tell me how you can not see the very handprint of God.

I am not going to get into a long drawn out theological debate. Too much is lost in those. It took many years for me, but once I opened my heart to the Holy Spirit, He entered it and filled me. Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission. His Grace is a gift and it is up to us to accept it.

What verse of what hymn we sing first, what order of service or how the liturgy is read, or on and on is man made bickering. Base your belief on the Bible, the inspired Word and it's Truth.

I will not hammer away at you about what you should believe. I will be glad to tell you why I do if you are interested. To me it is good news to be shared, but if you aren't interested, so be it. I try to live my life as a witness to others.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. He is the Risen Son of God. That is my belief and I shall not waver.

Metaldoc :usa:

Dorkface

09-27-2004, 08:14

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Sep 27 2004, 08:21 AM
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission. His Grace is a gift and it is up to us to accept it.
and that pretty much sums up my feelings on alot of organized religions... it seems like they try to use scare tactic and beat you in to accepting their point of view and then they pass around the collection tray and almost try to link the mount to you give to your being forgiven and make you feel bad if you cant offer very much. maybe things have changed since the many years ive last gone.

it also seems like since the church came to power during the middle ages using said tactics that they decided to keep using them since the middle management up to the pope have gotten power, infulance and lots of money. I've also heard from different places, i dont remember where, that were disscusing all of the different disciples and that they had written their own gospels but then they started talking about the fact that there was never one from jesus himself. and that it was believed that in fact the vatican has it locked up and wont let anyone see it because bascially said that you dont need to go churches and stuff like that inorder to worship. which if it were true would be a direct threat to the churches power. i wish i could remember where i heard or read that because it made alot of sence to me.

Bret:
yeah that was a great movie lol. its one of the few movies where you root for the bad guy because he was betraied by the even badder guys and dirty cops.

stooxie

09-27-2004, 08:29

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Sep 27 2004, 06:21 AM
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission.

Right, that's what people are for.

Crusades, proseletyzing, electing fundimentalist leaders, the list goes on. Millions
of people throughout history have been brutally murdered for not accepting
the Church.

No offense to you, I saw that you said you don't do that, but it does manifest itself is lots of ways.

I hear people all the time saying that this is a religious war (Iraq, etc), and Bush is the only one who get's it and his faith will carry us through, he is a religious leader, etc.

To anyone who isn't Christian it means this country is a total theocracy, and Christians
don't seem to mind that one bit (do they?). After all, the bible justifies it so it's all just doing God's work.

Theocracy IS NOT democracy.

-Stooxie

tri70

09-27-2004, 11:24

Evolution has not been proven yet has it? Even Darwin himself on his death bed said his theory had to many holes and impossibilities. I believe he even converted to Christianity on his death bed. I think I heard of the Law of Thermodynamics were everything breaks down to a lesser form. I believe in Creation for dogs are doing what dogs have always done, along with cats, birds, horses, and monkies.

I also believe that a person can only be truely restore when they have turned to Christ and asked for forgiveness and mercie. I was on a destructive path myself and should have been killed in a motorcycle wreck. I was trying to outrun the police and hit the back of a police car at over 100 mph. God was not thru with me yet though I had plenty of bills and tickets to pay for, I teach sunday school at a First Baptist Church.

I also just read a book "A table in the Presence" a story about the fighting 5th of the 1st battallion entry into Iraq in 2003. If you read this book your hair will tingle with amazement of how God protected them in a fierce battle for one of Sadam's palaces. They only lost 2 soliders in one of the worst battles of the war. A great book, I can't wait to personally speak to one of these soliders.

-tri

Havok

09-27-2004, 11:47

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission.

Not yet, but in the end days he will... make no mistake...

Please people do not get confused into thinking that God is a big cuddly teddy bear... or church...

God had demolished this world before in order to 'browbeat' us into showing our true faith. Take Noah and floods... Soddom and Gamoura ( Sp?) ... Revelations period.

yes, we must invite him in, but he won't just knock.

there is a verse that says " [He] will cause the world to believe a great lie"

now what lie does that mean? who knows?only God. But I have a slight idea it maybe that the lie is
That God is lovey-dovey... and that God accepts gays {He doesn't! Romans 1:26; Corinth I 6:9; Timothy I 1:9, Leviticus 18:22-30, 20:13; Mat 19:4-5; Jude 1:7}
God said, through the Holy Spirit, that the creation took 7 days. So it did.

Evolution occurs all the time, but we are not from apes. We as humans have grown in hieght(overall) in the 1800's average hieght was about 5'6" and now average hieght is around 5'9".
But as far as Apes are, other than having 4 limbs, there is no comparision... if you think that maybe there is, then i ask: Why not sloths too? or Koalas? or monkeys?

-=Brent=-

Bret

09-27-2004, 14:25

Originally posted by Havok@Sep 27 2004, 10:47 AM
Please people do not get confused into thinking that God is a big cuddly teddy bear... or church...

God had demolished this world before in order to 'browbeat' us into showing our true faith. Take Noah and floods... Soddom and Gamoura ( Sp?) ... Revelations period.

yes, we must invite him in, but he won't just knock.

<<SIP>>
-=Brent=-
My grandfather was a Presbyterian Minister. After seminary school he started preaching as a junior pastor in Oklahoma before moving to Pasadena California just before WW2.

With time he eventually he became the Senior Pastor of what would become the largest attended church in that city. In 1969 he retired for health concerns, but continued to write self help books and give sermons & speeches for the remainder of his life. I was lucky enough to attend many of his sermons over the years and upon his death in 1985 came into the position of his personal library and papers.

Along with all of his old books covering everything from textbooks on Greek Grammar to personally autographed works by the likes of Norman Vincent Peale (to name but a few) was all of his “hand written” sermons filed by date. I’ve scanned over them from time to time and thus far have not come across one speech or sermon that consisted of hell & damnation, fire & brimstone nor any reference to a vengeful god.

But should the Lord wish to lay his hand on the earth again – I am not afraid.

stooxie

09-27-2004, 17:02

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 27 2004, 01:25 PM
I’ve scanned over them from time to time and thus far have not come across one speech or sermon that consisted of hell & damnation, fire & brimstone nor any reference to a vengeful god.
Thankyou!!

Let me provide another take on this:

Christian or not, I just can't believe that the point of religion is to live in
fear of God. If you want to believe there are consequences for
being a jerk, great, but I can't picture a God who is just itching to bring
down the hammer on all who do not immediately stop and thank for
lord for not turning him into a grease spot at whim.

You see, what does scare me is that people who are afraid are,
by definition, more apt to do irrational things to aleve the fear. That's
Psyc 101, you don't have to be a phD to know that.

When people fear their God, they can be driven to do things they wouldn't
normally do, like kill. If you twiddle the terror alert every now and again
and keep the public in fear, you have no problems passing things like the
Patriot Act, which by all accounts is a blank check. (And you don't have to
be some bleeding heart liberal to see that.)

I am just trying to highlight that it sure seems to me that a religion that
inspires it's followers to do good does DO much more good than one that
simply scares them sh*tless.

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 20:37

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Sep 27 2004, 02:21 PM
Just stop and really look at this beautiful creation and tell me how you can not see the very handprint of God.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. He is the Risen Son of God. That is my belief and I shall not waver.

Metaldoc :usa:
Words of wisdom there boys. Another BIG, Hearty, MANLY MAN, AMEN BROTHER!!!!!! :D

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 20:45

Originally posted by Havok@Sep 27 2004, 06:47 PM
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We have to invite Him in. He doesn't kick it down and browbeat us into submission.

Not yet, but in the end days he will... make no mistake...

Please people do not get confused into thinking that God is a big cuddly teddy bear... or church...

God had demolished this world before in order to 'browbeat' us into showing our true faith. Take Noah and floods... Soddom and Gamoura ( Sp?) ... Revelations period.

yes, we must invite him in, but he won't just knock.

there is a verse that says " [He] will cause the world to believe a great lie"

now what lie does that mean? who knows?only God. But I have a slight idea it maybe that the lie is
That God is lovey-dovey... and that God accepts gays {He doesn't! Romans 1:26; Corinth I 6:9; Timothy I 1:9, Leviticus 18:22-30, 20:13; Mat 19:4-5; Jude 1:7}
God said, through the Holy Spirit, that the creation took 7 days. So it did.

Evolution occurs all the time, but we are not from apes. We as humans have grown in hieght(overall) in the 1800's average hieght was about 5'6" and now average hieght is around 5'9".
But as far as Apes are, other than having 4 limbs, there is no comparision... if you think that maybe there is, then i ask: Why not sloths too? or Koalas? or monkeys?

-=Brent=-
More words of wisdom spoken by Brent, I believe it is from the Word:

Ecclesiastes 12:13
".....Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 21:07

Originally posted by Havok@Sep 27 2004, 06:47 PM

there is a verse that says " [He] will cause the world to believe a great lie"

now what lie does that mean? who knows?only God. But I have a slight idea it maybe that the lie is
-=Brent=-
2nd Thessalonians 2:10-11
10".....because they did not love the truth so to be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send uopn them a deluding influence, so they might beleive that which is false."

That was NAS and in the notes it say it can be translated "the Lie"

The King James reads:"..God will send upon them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie"

That word delusion is #4106 in Strong's and it means, "decieve". God decieves when we refuse to recieve the truth of salvation. And when He decieves you, you can believe anything. Thats not the goodie two shoes God they teach in the churches today, is it? Any given Sunday you can go into "nearly" any church in the land and hear about how much God loves you, but selodome do we hear about how we ought to love Him.

The Lie, IMHO is the one told in the garden, "ye shall be as gods" But hey, we has a nation have bought into many lies because we "recieved not the truth". Because the truth is so hard to swallow. Truth cost us something, I believe it say somewhere in Proverbs or Ecc. "Buy truth, and do not sell it". Some are not willing to pay the price cause they think "babylon aint so bad". For now they say that anyway. ;)

kravman4

09-27-2004, 21:22

Ok, I don't mean to keep beating this subject to death, but variances in human height, color, eye-color, and what-not from generation to generation is not evolution? Evolution involves genetic change that is passed on from one generation to another. Although the "tall" gene is said to be passed along from generation to generation, when a short person is born, they are not the product of evolution! Rather, the child just received a "short" gene from one of the parents. Hypothetically, evolution could be a fish that "mutates", or has it's genes altered in such a way that it "grows" appendages, but it is not minor deviances from generation to generation.

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 21:25

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 28 2004, 04:22 AM
Ok, I don't mean to keep beating this subject to death,
Thats ok it is the subjrct at hand. :D

kravman4

09-27-2004, 21:29

Originally posted by stooxie@Sep 27 2004, 04:02 PM
Christian or not, I just can't believe that the point of religion is to live in
fear of God. If you want to believe there are consequences for
being a jerk, great, but I can't picture a God who is just itching to bring
down the hammer on all who do not immediately stop and thank for
lord for not turning him into a grease spot at whim.

When the Bible speaks of "the fear of the Lord", it is not speaking of fear as in "fear of the dark". Rather, it is referring to a mixture of reverence, honor, and realization that we serve an all-knowing, all-present, all-powerful God.

No, we Christians don't go around quakin' in our boots, we just realize that all our actions are under the scrutiny of God. You can't hide. You can't run. If you do run, you'll only die tired! ;)

Oh, and BTW, God doesn't turn people into grease-spots just because they disobey his law. :lol: Quite often, the wicked live long, prosperous lives. They receive their temporary reward on this earth, but they receive eternal damnation in hell. God's timing is not our timing. Leave the planning to Him; He can see the big picture! B)

kravman4

09-27-2004, 21:31

Well, I'm gonna hit the sack. I'll probably get a chance to write again tomorrow. TTYL and God bless! (The Christians anyways! ;) :lol: )

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 21:58

Originally posted by kravman4+Sep 28 2004, 04:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kravman4 @ Sep 28 2004, 04:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-stooxie@Sep 27 2004, 04:02 PM
Christian or not, I just can't believe that the point of religion is to live in
fear of God. If you want to believe there are consequences for
being a jerk, great, but I can't picture a God who is just itching to bring
down the hammer on all who do not immediately stop and thank for
lord for not turning him into a grease spot at whim.

When the Bible speaks of "the fear of the Lord", it is not speaking of fear as in "fear of the dark". Rather, it is referring to a mixture of reverence, honor, and realization that we serve an all-knowing, all-present, all-powerful God.

No, we Christians don't go around quakin' in our boots, we just realize that all our actions are under the scrutiny of God. You can't hide. You can't run. If you do run, you'll only die tired! ;)

Oh, and BTW, God doesn't turn people into grease-spots just because they disobey his law. :lol: Quite often, the wicked live long, prosperous lives. They receive their temporary reward on this earth, but they receive eternal damnation in hell. God's timing is not our timing. Leave the planning to Him; He can see the big picture! B) [/b][/quote]
WOW!! :o More words of wisdom!!!

But Scripture does show some "grease spots". :lol: What we are all to forgetful of is that the Bible is a79% national message, and 21% personal. But look at what can happen if there are just ten "rightouse" men in the land!!! So it goes both ways.

Yes we have all seen the wicked prosper, but what we dont see is what happens in his personall life that is hidden from the public eye. I have a personal example of a friend of mine. What happened in his personal life was a tragedy that was worth NONE of his earthly gains.

God does forgive for breaking his law, but the law is no longer for rightousness sake, according to Paul. And according to Christ He came,"not to destroy the law, but to fulfill" The law is still there, just like gravity is a Law of God, one that shows us no predudejust. I know, on 4-28-04 this year I fell from a 16' ladder and it has changed my life. I will be healed, for '"By His strippes we are healed" But I broke the Law of gravity, and it cost me a little. But Ive gained time with my family and with my King, Christ Jesus! Ive had several so called doctors tell me I lucky to be alive, I tell them we are lucky everyday to wake alive, thats why we need to repent and get the books straight before we go to bed every night.

I want to say again that I really appreciate you guys, Ive done some wittnessing in other places that needed it the most(cough)AR15.com(cough) And it tough. The people over there, the Creationist and Chistians of all sorts were waylayed. By the athiest, Darwinist ect... It got ugly, really.

Its nice to knock the dirt off you shoes and come over here speak to folk like you.

For those of you that are His,
May the Lord bless you and keep you,
Make His face shine upon you and be gracious unto you,
May He lift up His countenance upon you, and grant you peace.

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 22:06

Howdy Dorkface!!!

Dorkface

09-27-2004, 22:12

Originally posted by kravman4@Sep 27 2004, 10:29 PM
Quite often, the wicked live long, prosperous lives. They receive their temporary reward on this earth, but they receive eternal damnation in hell. God's timing is not our timing. Leave the planning to Him; He can see the big picture!
hmm... maybe thats why nothing has been easy me or my family. I guess we can only take things as they come and try to be a good person. If there is a God I just hope im doing everything that he sent me here to do...

Dorkface

09-27-2004, 22:13

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 27 2004, 11:06 PM
Howdy Dorkface!!!
Hello. :) :usa:

Swordslinger

09-27-2004, 22:26

Originally posted by tri70@Sep 27 2004, 06:24 PM

I also just read a book "A table in the Presence" a story about the fighting 5th of the 1st battallion entry into Iraq in 2003.
I would like to read that book, There are a great many battle storis that will my your hair stand up. The I thik of is Boers in Southafrica, They had cicled the wagans and there was no hope left but prayer. The Zulu's were on the march, they could be heard for miles. Terrifieing sound they say.

After prayer that decided that if they save there ammo they may, oh wait.....what? The next line came over the hill and thier were thousands. They began to fight and the battle was long, and miraculously the Zulus were beaten back. None of the English Boers was injured, they praised the King Jesus. A few year later, someone had interviewd the one of the chiefs of the Zulu raiders, and he was asked,"how was it possible for the Boers to push back such a large army of your best warriors? The chief replied, " It wasnt the Boers shooting from the wagons that did all of the damage, It was the Boers in the clouds, shooting from the clouds"

He will prepare a table for us in the midst of our enemies, for sure.

jszy

09-27-2004, 23:21

some real good minds at work here.... you're all proving the question by just debating...

swordslinger- "man from apes" isn't an encompassing definition of "evolution" however it is somewhere near an example of what "they" would have you accept as "fact". It has to be drawn back to irreducible complexity, and apart from that, just how did LIFE emerge from nonlife?

Theoretically it is possible, for random molecules to come together by chance into a self-replicating sequence of amino acids. About as possible as taking dumptruck full of individual typewritten individual letters, dumping them out on the ground and having them fall in the exact text of the Encyclopedia Britannica with no typos. (One misplaced letter would invalidate the individual result..., try again!) Theoretically possible, yes, but not in the time frame that we humans understand as "TIME" from the beginning of the universe (another BIG ???)

There are a bunch of elite super braniacs out there who were fully convinced that the entire existence of everything was due to mere chance. The smarter they got (are getting, and it's taken a thousand years or so) the more they are forced to accept that life, the universe, and everything, is the way it is because it was DESIGNED to be that way. Now they are finding that when they publish their conclusive data of design, they are losing their big important university jobs.

I think part of God's plan is to have humanity finally reach a level of knowledge about our surroundings where we can finally say, THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR THIS ALL TO HAPPEN, EXCEPT THAT SOMEONE WANTED IT!

So, evolution? Yes, sort of, but only because He set it up that way! Creation, in the literal 7 days of Genesis? Yes, sort of, because that's the best translation we have of what the author understood to have happened. God's hand is constantly at work in what He created. It would be silly to think He took a "week" to make this then just decided to leave it alone and not pay attention any more. None of us would take a great deal of time and effort to, say, build a great homestead and not continually work on it and tweak things to keep it in the condition we want it to be. Or, write a giant wonderful software program and not revise and fix and patch and tweak this and that over and over and over. After all, it says we were made in His image(I would include the nonphysical parts of us too...)

well, haven't typed this much in many moons. And to think, I was just stopping by to find out about aftermarket magazines.... :)

Goeth27

09-27-2004, 23:56

i have yet to find in the bible the part about dinasours, which we all know were here.

tri70

09-28-2004, 05:36

Look in the book of Job when they talk of the behemoth, a very large creature and sounds bigger than an elephant.

Bret

09-28-2004, 06:29

Originally posted by Goeth27@Sep 27 2004, 10:56 PM
i have yet to find in the bible the part about dinasours, which we all know were here.
Thats is an easy one to explain. Here is how it was once explained to me by one “non-denominational” pastor.

"He actually tried to tell me that all of the scientific evidence dug up to date that proved the existence of Dinosaurs or other prehistoric evolutionary life forms was just a hoax brought about by the Devil." :blink:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Bret

09-28-2004, 06:40

Originally posted by tri70@Sep 28 2004, 04:36 AM
Look in the book of Job when they talk of the behemoth, a very large creature and sounds bigger than an elephant.
Not challenging you or saying you are wrong only that I went to Dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com). When I plugged in “Behemoth” here is what I got back.

be•he•moth (b -h m th, b -m th)
n.
1. Something enormous in size or power.
2. often Behemoth A huge animal, possibly the hippopotamus, described in the Bible.

#2 is kind'a interesting, don't ya think?

All I'm saying is that a "Behemoth" it don't sound like a T-rex or a raptor to me. :D

:beer:

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 07:20

Originally posted by Goeth27@Sep 28 2004, 06:56 AM
i have yet to find in the bible the part about dinasours, which we all know were here.
The Dinosaur thing is one reason I believe the earth is much, much older than 6 thousand years. And like I said, many good men that otherwise wouls believe are turned away from the gospel because of the non-sense that they teach.

In the King James, Gen 1:28, It says of man,.."Be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth and subdue it..."

The word subdue in Strong's is #3533 and means to " Conquer..." The best I can tell from the context the word, "replenish" mean to .."replenish" it is the same hebrew word used in the story of the flood. #4390

That indicates that there was a creation of sorts that was here before. I guess I will get flamed by my bretheren now? :(

2 gun

09-28-2004, 08:52

Something I didn't see mentioned is what type of evelution.There are two theoretical types the first is MICRO and it is a science fact with things like some Iguanas being able to live in salt water when there cousins can't or a type of bird that may differ a little from the same kind of bird in another enviroment.The second kind of Evolution is only THEORETICAL it is called MACRO. It basically means big changes like ape to man, dinosaur to bird this type has never been witnessed in history only treroised . The Problem with Evolution is many people like those that make school text books will tell you evolution is real proven and reputable without separating the two kinds of evelution.This is no accident this is a purposeful omission done with the intent of disproving Creation the Bible and furthering the Earth type religions. This is also the reason most Christians are so upset about the subject.
Imagine if I took the Proven law of gravity and said I have a theory that if society doesn't loose weight we will get so heavy the earth will fall out of orbit, Sounds stupid I know. Lets also say I call the theory of gravity. Then lets say in 100 years a group of ultra lean veggians start telling everyone (The proven theory of gravity will destroy the world if we don't all become veggians.) This is how the truth is turned to support an unproven theroy.I am amazed at how far this theory has gone given it's total absences in fossil records and DNA testing. What This type of Evolution teaching does for me is proves there are those what want to recreate our society to a liberal Wica type of tree huggers.

tri70

09-28-2004, 09:02

They have found dinosaur and human footprints fossilized together in the some rock! You do not hear of it main stream media because this blows the million yrd dino theory out the window. Carbon is not accurate at all, +/- 1 million yrs on this item, +/- 1000 years with this item?? In the China history books they talk of a dino type dragon creature in 400 a.d.

I did find a reference for the dino like creature in the book of Job
Job 40 behemoth (http://www.justbible.com/Chapters/B18C040.htm)

this sounds like a very big creature big than anything we have running around today.

-tri

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 09:09

Originally posted by 2 gun@Sep 28 2004, 03:52 PM
The Problem with Evolution is many people like those that make school text books will tell you evolution is real proven and reputable without separating the two kinds of evelution.
Very True!! Christians need to realize that we have enemies that walk on two legs and are here for the sole purpose to "kill, steal, and destroy" I have a book in my possesion,(on loan now) that was writen by a man named Wichell. That book was a text book in the mid-1800s. The title? "Man, and then Adam, The Pre-Adamites."

Our history is being stolen and replaced by Humanist/Communist. Yeah, Ive got my tin fiol hat on. I believe what The King has to say on this matter. We allway say "they are doing this","They are doing that". Its time we figured out who the "theys" are.

Thanks for letting me rant, but when it come to text books that are causeing His little ones to stumble, I hold the same position as Christ. The millstone is needed!!!!

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 09:31

Originally posted by tri70@Sep 28 2004, 04:02 PM
They have found dinosaur and human footprints fossilized together in the some rock! You do not hear of it main stream media because this blows the million yrd dino theory out the window. Carbon is not accurate at all, +/- 1 million yrs on this item, +/- 1000 years with this item?? In the China history books they talk of a dino type dragon creature in 400 a.d.

I did find a reference for the dino like creature in the book of Job
Job 40 behemoth (http://www.justbible.com/Chapters/B18C040.htm)

this sounds like a very big creature big than anything we have running around today.

-tri
Sounds like a Brontosaures(me caint speell :lol:) dosnt it?

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

AR15_Fanatic

09-28-2004, 10:20

Whatever happened to saying "I DON'T KNOW!" Why is that so hard for Christians to say? Insteand, they blinly go forward with tte same tired stories bout God making the world in 6 days - exactly six 24-hr periods - then resting on the seventh, Adam, Eve, the Snake, Cain, Abel, and so on.......Well, because the Bible says so. But so what? This Bible is a religious, not a scientific and very vaguely historical document, and trying to use it as such is fruitless and somewhat dangerous to the health of society. One need only to look at the Balkans, Northern Ireland and the middle east to see how much of a failure that a fanatical theocracy. And lets not leave the Christians out of this. The Spanish Inquision (which incidentally was NOTHING compared to the Protestant witch hunts of the era). The Crusades killed millions of Muslims in a quest to establish a european hold of the Holy Land all "For the glory of God" - Everyone's apparent justification for genocide for self- or political gain.

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 10:32

Originally posted by AR15_Fanatic@Sep 28 2004, 05:20 PM
Whatever happened to saying "I DON'T KNOW!" Why is that so hard for Christians to say? Insteand, they blinly go forward with tte same tired stories bout God making the world in 6 days - exactly six 24-hr periods - then resting on the seventh, Adam, Eve, the Snake, Cain, Abel, and so on.......Well, because the Bible says so.
If your referring to my previous posts, you should go back and read. If you are referring to the stuff taught in the mainstream churches, Amen. :lol: If you talking about the scientist, "who hath said in his heart, " there is no God" then Amen to that too. :lol:

There will be a day when all is revealled and EVERY knee will bow.

cjgemm

09-28-2004, 10:55

another measurement?

light years (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html)

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 11:11

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 28 2004, 05:55 PM
another measurement?

light years (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html)
That reminds me of church hynm that I just read about. Speaking of "light years", how did the writer of this church hynm comprehend the term "light years" in the 1700s?

And have the bright immensities
Received our risen Lord,

Where light-years frame the Pleiades
And point Orion's sword?

Do flaming suns his footsteps trace
Through corridors sublime,

The Lord of interstellar space
And Conqueror of time?

The heaven that hides Him from our sight
Knows neither near nor far:

An altar candle sheds its light
As surely as a star;

And where His loving people meet
To share the gift divine,

There stands He with unhurrying feet,
And Heaven's splendors shine.

Rhetorical Questions:

What are the bright immensities?

How did Handel know about light-years? In the mid-1700s????

Why did Handel(the writer of the hynm, call Jesus Christ, "The Lord of interstellar space and conquer of time?"

A heaven 'that knows neither near nor far'.
Something else to think about. :lol: Thinking is good, not enough of it is done today.

stooxie

09-28-2004, 11:28

Originally posted by AR15_Fanatic@Sep 28 2004, 09:20 AM
Whatever happened to saying "I DON'T KNOW!" Why is that so hard for Christians to say? Insteand, they blinly go forward with tte same tired stories bout God making the world in 6 days - exactly six 24-hr periods - then resting on the seventh, Adam, Eve, the Snake, Cain, Abel, and so on.......Well, because the Bible says so. But so what? This Bible is a religious, not a scientific and very vaguely historical document, and trying to use it as such is fruitless and somewhat dangerous to the health of society. One need only to look at the Balkans, Northern Ireland and the middle east to see how much of a failure that a fanatical theocracy. And lets not leave the Christians out of this. The Spanish Inquision (which incidentally was NOTHING compared to the Protestant witch hunts of the era). The Crusades killed millions of Muslims in a quest to establish a european hold of the Holy Land all "For the glory of God" - Everyone's apparent justification for genocide for self- or political gain.
Now THAT's what I give an Amen to.

It's because of fear, and really fear of death. If I do the right thing I'll be taken
care of in the afterlife. It's the basis of every religion. Take the fear away and
what's left?

Now, the way I see it, there is one HUGE body of evidence to support that and it
is exacltly what many of these posts keep saying. Every time you question the
bible or an extreme believe their one response is "Well you'll pay by rotting in
hell" or "When the messiah comes, all will be judged." Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Also, I've asked very religious people point blank "Well, what about man's
responsiblity to his fellow man, and being a good person?"

Those people get confused and say "But it's not about your interaction with
other people, it's about your relationship with God." And there you have it, the
ULTIMATE excuse for all earthly corruption. I'm good with God so I must
be ok.

When I see people saying things like "I listen to my King and glory be to
him!" I see a second part that noone ever includes which is a much
quieter "Did you hear that, God? You're not going to send me to hell
are you? Phew!"

I wish people would put a tenth as much energy into being decent human
beings as they do into getting into heaven.

-Stooxie

cjgemm

09-28-2004, 12:25

How did Handel know about light-years? In the mid-1700s????

Did he know about all 18,000,000,000 of them?

AR15_Fanatic

09-28-2004, 12:27

It's because of fear, and really fear of death. If I do the right thing I'll be taken
care of in the afterlife. It's the basis of every religion. Take the fear away and
what's left?

Now, the way I see it, there is one HUGE body of evidence to support that and it
is exacltly what many of these posts keep saying. Every time you question the
bible or an extreme believe their one response is "Well you'll pay by rotting in
hell" or "When the messiah comes, all will be judged." Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Also, I've asked very religious people point blank "Well, what about man's
responsiblity to his fellow man, and being a good person?"

Those people get confused and say "But it's not about your interaction with
other people, it's about your relationship with God." And there you have it, the
ULTIMATE excuse for all earthly corruption. I'm good with God so I must
be ok.

When I see people saying things like "I listen to my King and glory be to
him!" I see a second part that noone ever includes which is a much
quieter "Did you hear that, God? You're not going to send me to hell
are you? Phew!"

I wish people would put a tenth as much energy into being decent human
beings as they do into getting into heaven.

-Stooxie

There is a lot to be said about this. This is used to discourage any questioning of religious teachings - after all who would risk eternal damnation by speaking against this? And for you religious fanatics out there, I AM NOT AN AGENT OF SATAN TRYING TO LEAD YOU ASTRAY! Actually, I can't see anything wrong with what Jesus taught people and his followers. The problem is this. Religion (and, but not limited to, Christianity) attracts people who want to boss others around and it gives them a justification to do so. Ever wonder why they like the term for a follower of Christ to be a "sheep"? Sheep never question authority, do whatever they are told, cannot think for themselves and have no mind other than the collective - they'll even EAT themselves to death if not stopped! We're not sheep, we're human beings! Contrary to popular belief, you WONT GO TO HELL IF YOU QUESTION WHAT YOUR PASTOR TOLD YOU IN CHURCH! AND YOU WON'T IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT! But these people cannot deal with it!

This kind or religious peer pressure is very powerful. After all how many lives have been lost from everything from an innocent passerby attending a service at a cult to brainwashed people hijacking airplanes to be used as suicide cruise missiles against the WTC? And all because at the core we seem to need some kind of constant in our lives and evey one of their questions about life or their purpose answered right NOW! And the thing is, what if ther IS no answer? "Everything is meaningless!, the teacher says.....". So said King Solomon in Ecclesiastes in the Bible. And so worrying about all this stuff is useless. Maybe we should just eat, drink, and be merry (another biblical quote from Eccleasties), and not worry so much about where we all came from? I believe in God but if, in fact, life evolved from an Amoeba, I'm not phased by it. And what happens if you die and, in fact, there is no afterlife. Nobody can scientifically prove that one exists (though I have faith that it does). Do you realize how much time and enerey from your life was then wasted worrying about a threat that did not exist? How many more good things could you have done with that time and how much better you would have felt if that time had not been wasted WORRYING and being AFRAID!

Dorkface

09-28-2004, 14:08

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 28 2004, 11:55 AM
another measurement?

light years (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html)
um... a light year is a measurement of distance not time....

as for the hynm maybe he was using light years to mean good years or something. a time of happyness or something.

Goeth27

09-28-2004, 14:18

see, if dinasours never existed i would beleive in creation, but why does the bible not state anything about dinasours specifically, or spend much time on something so big? It's all unclear to me still maybe because im young, but until dino's don't exist or the bible says something about them specifically and not something that could get mixed with a elephant or any reptile, im not too sure what to beleive at this point, everything points to eloluvtion in my eyes.

tinman

09-28-2004, 14:18

As usual relegion becomes a very touchy subject. Simple christianity joins people while relegion seperates. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does creationism. There are too many unanswered questions, missing links and contradictions of the first two laws of nature. Namely that a living organism cannot derive from non-living.
science does prove creationism
Science also proves the probability of one single cell developing through evolution to be the equivalent of putting a blind man in the sahara desert , and having him pull out the same randomly placed grain of sand three times. I have the mathamatical equation somewhere for this.
I would rather believe something documented and proven such as the Bible. inspired by God and maybe a little contaminated by man.
The day I die, the only thing that would have really mattered are relationships. Relationships with family,friends,community and most importantly God.
If I didnt know this to be true then I would find evolution to be appealing. I would have no one to answer to, at least until the day I died.

cooter

09-28-2004, 14:36

maybe the reason that dinosaures arnt talked about in the bible is that God had a reason not to tell us? :huh:

Taquito971

09-28-2004, 14:40

Originally posted by Goeth27@Sep 28 2004, 01:18 PM
see, if dinasours never existed i would beleive in creation, but why does the bible not state anything about dinasours specifically, or spend much time on something so big? It's all unclear to me still maybe because im young, but until dino's don't exist or the bible says something about them specifically and not something that could get mixed with a elephant or any reptile, im not too sure what to beleive at this point, everything points to eloluvtion in my eyes.
Dinosaurs always kind of intrigued me. My wife was raised in Sunday school and private Christian schools and even attends a Christian college so I trust her point of view on religious aspects. She was looking for an answer for me and came up with this website:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

You may find it interesting.

Brian

tinman

09-28-2004, 15:29

Im sensing some confusion between natural selection and evolution. Dinosaurs existed and were created by God. Larger ones died due to overeating, disease and were not able to adapt to a changing envronment. All a part of natural selection.
Evolutionists make a giant step and go from the improbability of lifeless mass creating a live organism by chance to natural selection.
So did man come from an ape? God created man, man sinned, was ashamed and knew he was naked. Apes dont know what sin is for they are not created in Gods image, they have no shame(ever been to a zoo?) Are naked and proud of it.
It would be easier to be an ape with no responsabilities like taking care of the garden of eden or taking care of Gods creation. A person has to be ape to think that man came from an ape. Thats my story and Im stick-in to it.

Havok

09-28-2004, 16:28

A person has to be ape to think that man came from an ape. Thats my story and Im stick-in to it.

LOL AMEN....... ! :beer:

cjgemm

09-28-2004, 17:10

QUOTE (cjgemm @ Sep 28 2004, 11:55 AM)
another measurement?

light years

um... a light year is a measurement of distance not time....

as for the hynm maybe he was using light years to mean good years or something. a time of happyness or something.

A light year is a constant. @ the speed of light it would take an X amount of time to tavel a certain distance. ie light from the most distant object astronomers can see took 18,000,000,000 years to get here. d=rt

tinman

09-28-2004, 17:18

I find loose comments like"I believe in God" to be misleading. Remember that Lucifer(the evil one) was cast out of heaven. He too believes in God. So The question remains "Have you accepted salvation through grace?"
There seems to be an attack on organized relegion. I know that sitting in church on sundays doesnt doesnt make me anymore of a christian than sitting in the garage makes me a car. But quite often you will find me there, for that is where I can take advantage of the inspiration of others. Sounds like some have attended some churches that suffer from religiosity, find another.

Swordslinger

09-28-2004, 17:37

Originally posted by Dorkface+Sep 28 2004, 09:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dorkface @ Sep 28 2004, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-cjgemm@Sep 28 2004, 11:55 AM
another measurement?

light years (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/guidry/violence/lightspeed.html)
um... a light year is a measurement of distance not time....

as for the hynm maybe he was using light years to mean good years or something. a time of happyness or something. [/b][/quote]
Yeah but what caught my eye was that term in conjuction with"interstellar space"

Not that its inspired, just intereresting.

As far as why didnt he mention 18,00000000000000000000 or what ever? Heck I dont know. But I do know that people who believe in the "theory" want EXACT, ROCK SOLID, Undeniable proof, when they do not have enough proof themselves to get past the label of "theory".

What many people dont realize is that some people ," just aint gona get it" Ethier because it is not time for for them yet, they are just to darned "stiff necked", or maybe just maybe, Christ dosnt want them to get it.

Mark Chapter 4:11-12
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

We as Christians have the command to teach and explain the gospel plan of salvation. But we are also told that at some point we need to knock the dust off of our shoes and move on.

Sometimes argueing religion with a non-beliver is like wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it. :lol: And sometimes it pays off. Remember, it is only a remnant they will be saved. But He will save anyone that obeys, everybody just wont. Once you have been told to gospel plan, the responsibility becomes yours. There will no longer be the excuse, "but I didnt know".

He is a great,merciful, forgiving and a wrathfull God. The same yesterday, today and forever.

2 gun

09-28-2004, 20:42

Atrocities where done in the name of all religions even in the name of non-religous religions.Hitler,Gangas Kon, Stollin,as far back as history will date atrocities have been done. The reasion isn't religion but the following of a mad man. Sometimes that madman is religious and sometimes not. As a Christian I am taught to do unto others as I want to be done it's not just a saying but a way of life. I am strengthened from my beliefs I have never tried to convert someone to Christ out of fear if someone does this they are either uneducated in the Bible or practicing a false religion. I will also never tell them God Is love and everything they do is OK because that is not the truth and if someone tells you different the to are either uneducated in the Bible or in a fall religion . Christ freed me from my sin and guides me even when I don't listen He also gives me peace in life not because I know I will have an after life but because I know my life here has a purpose and I have a perfect friend here to stand at my side no matter the challenge.

I stand ready on the bridge and fear nothing, I am comforted in knowing I have done all things in Christ name and in that I am well satisfied.

The lord God has appointed my time to die and nothing I can do will change that. So then why should I fear the enemy for if it is my time I will die well believing in Christ.

Does this sound like men who want you to be afraid with them?

jszy

09-28-2004, 21:59

cjgemm you are flat wrong. A light-year is a measurement of distance as was ponited out to you before. It is the distance light travels (through a vaccuum) in a year.

What if all life "evolved" from an amoeba, so what? That's fine, but the EVOLUTION question must go back further, what did the amoeba "evolve" from? LIFE from NONLIFE is the ultimate evolutionary quandary... The probability of it happening (it takes a book to explain it... look up a book called "The Case for a Creator", it's a good one.) by chance is as close to impossible as you can get.

In human understanding of our surroundings, it's perfectly clear that there were dinosaurs around long before people ever were. Why is that contradictory to Christianity? God clearly has a sense of humor and many of our human attributes (curiosity, frustration, willingness to "remodel" things, on and on) are surely weak reflections of His attributes. So dinosaurs were here before us, so what? He had dinos making a go of it here on earth for a while, they didn't really work out, so He got rid of most of them and started in on a new project. Anyone remember BASIC, COBOL, DOS, ??

The whole "Evolution vs Creation" argument is not a "Christians vs Everyone Else" battle. It's a Creator vs noncreator argument. Only when we move forward to the understanding of Trinity does it involve Christianity. Keep it at the basic level and make progress. When you make progress on this issue and keep an open mind about things, the only logical conclusion is that life is DESIGNED, not a random collection of atoms that all of a sudden have a heartbeat. (or whatever)

Occam's razor, irreducible complexity, Cambrian explosion. The only reason the debate still rages is because the braniacs REFUSE to accept the most logical conclusion. If you were walking through the desert and came upon a hillside covered in rocks and sand, and saw that a bunch of rocks were arranged in letters that spelled out "KILROY WAS HERE", would you stand there and wonder "Golly-gee, I wonder how those rocks all just ended up forming themselves into those letters???" or would you stand there and wonder "Why did Kilroy come all the way out here to spell his name in rocks?"

cjgemm

09-29-2004, 04:29

cjgemm you are flat wrong. A light-year is a measurement of distance as was ponited out to you before. It is the distance light travels (through a vaccuum) in a year.

Dist=Rate X Time

Thank you for re-inforcing what I said.

Knowing that the frutherest star we can see is 18B light years away, wouldn't it be safe to say that there was at least 18B years for that light to reach us?

kravman4

09-29-2004, 06:26

Knowing that the frutherest star we can see is 18B light years away, wouldn't it be safe to say that there was at least 18B years for that light to reach us?

This can be a tough one to wrestle with, but here's how I view it. I believe that God created the world ~8,000 years ago. He made "the heavens" (the stars and other celestial beings) at the same time. Why would God have made stars that people wouldn't have been able to see for 18 billion years? I think God made the stars and the light in between so that the inhabitants of earth could see the stars he had created. No sense in making stars we'd never see! (Unless of course he made them purely for His own enjoyment)

Taquito,

Your wife stumbled on a gold mine. Answers in Genesis is full of practical information supporting "Intelligent Design". I've been a subscriber to their newsletter (magazine) for many years....they're excellent reading material! If you like, pm me with your address and I'll send you a copy.

Taquito971

09-29-2004, 06:36

On the stars issue. My wife made an excellent point last night when we were discussing this on the road. Basically, it is my wife's view that God created earth already matured. He made Adam a man, not a child. He made trees that were already full grown so that Adam could eat the fruit. He made animals already matured, rather than needing constant care. Why not make the stars visible and everything else?

Brian

cjgemm

09-29-2004, 07:02

Taquito971

09-29-2004, 07:34

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 29 2004, 06:02 AM
Why not?

Show me the proof.
Proof of what?

Brian

Swordslinger

09-29-2004, 07:42

Originally posted by jszy@Sep 29 2004, 04:59 AM
cjgemm you are flat wrong. A light-year is a measurement of distance as was ponited out to you before. It is the distance light travels (through a vaccuum) in a year.

What if all life "evolved" from an amoeba, so what? That's fine, but the EVOLUTION question must go back further, what did the amoeba "evolve" from? LIFE from NONLIFE is the ultimate evolutionary quandary... The probability of it happening (it takes a book to explain it... look up a book called "The Case for a Creator", it's a good one.) by chance is as close to impossible as you can get.

In human understanding of our surroundings, it's perfectly clear that there were dinosaurs around long before people ever were. Why is that contradictory to Christianity? God clearly has a sense of humor and many of our human attributes (curiosity, frustration, willingness to "remodel" things, on and on) are surely weak reflections of His attributes. So dinosaurs were here before us, so what? He had dinos making a go of it here on earth for a while, they didn't really work out, so He got rid of most of them and started in on a new project. Anyone remember BASIC, COBOL, DOS, ??

The whole "Evolution vs Creation" argument is not a "Christians vs Everyone Else" battle. It's a Creator vs noncreator argument. Only when we move forward to the understanding of Trinity does it involve Christianity. Keep it at the basic level and make progress. When you make progress on this issue and keep an open mind about things, the only logical conclusion is that life is DESIGNED, not a random collection of atoms that all of a sudden have a heartbeat. (or whatever)

Occam's razor, irreducible complexity, Cambrian explosion. The only reason the debate still rages is because the braniacs REFUSE to accept the most logical conclusion. If you were walking through the desert and came upon a hillside covered in rocks and sand, and saw that a bunch of rocks were arranged in letters that spelled out "KILROY WAS HERE", would you stand there and wonder "Golly-gee, I wonder how those rocks all just ended up forming themselves into those letters???" or would you stand there and wonder "Why did Kilroy come all the way out here to spell his name in rocks?"
I bebelive it is desribed by the intelegencia as the "uncaused first cause". Something started it. ;)

Swordslinger

09-29-2004, 07:52

Originally posted by 2 gun@Sep 29 2004, 03:42 AM
Christ freed me from my sin and guides me even when I don't listen He also gives me peace in life not because I know I will have an after life but because I know my life here has a purpose and I have a perfect friend here to stand at my side no matter the challenge.

I stand ready on the bridge and fear nothing, I am comforted in knowing I have done all things in Christ name and in that I am well satisfied.

The lord God has appointed my time to die and nothing I can do will change that. So then why should I fear the enemy for if it is my time I will die well believing in Christ.

WOW!!!! :D Truth!!! Listen up "ye blind guides", that gag on a gnat and swallow a bowling ball.

A very good wittness for The King.

tri70

09-29-2004, 10:00

Here is another link about the human footprints with the dinosaur footprints.
footprints (http://members.aol.com/paluxy2/wilker5.htm) There is alot of debate on this and is study by creationist science. The Bible tells us that Adam named all the beast and birds. To find footprints and human bones with the dinos is very interesting to think about. I did a search on the dino footprints and seen this is in Glendale, TX. Maybe if someone is close they can go check it out.

-tri

Dorkface

09-29-2004, 13:24

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 29 2004, 05:29 AM
cjgemm you are flat wrong. A light-year is a measurement of distance as was ponited out to you before. It is the distance light travels (through a vaccuum) in a year.

Dist=Rate X Time

Thank you for re-inforcing what I said.

Knowing that the frutherest star we can see is 18B light years away, wouldn't it be safe to say that there was at least 18B years for that light to reach us?
ok using the formula you have there DISTANCE = rate X time. a light year is always used to discribe distance or advancement. IE "Captain we are 10 light years away from vulcan". or "Their reaseach is lightyears ahead of us" which means they are futher along. If you flip the equation around to TIME = distance x rate that means you are going somewhere. you never hear anyone say "I need to get to bed, i have to be at work in a couple of miles" or " theirs only a few feet left before the ref calls a delay of game". when someone talkes about how long it has talken light to get to the earth from a star it seems like its a measurement of time. but its not. its just easier to say vega is one light year away vs vega is 1039887632487912345798123498789236 miles away. sorta like scientific notation.

This can be a tough one to wrestle with, but here's how I view it. I believe that God created the world ~8,000 years ago. He made "the heavens" (the stars and other celestial beings) at the same time. Why would God have made stars that people wouldn't have been able to see for 18 billion years? I think God made the stars and the light in between so that the inhabitants of earth could see the stars he had created. No sense in making stars we'd never see! (Unless of course he made them purely for His own enjoyment)

what if God created them for life on other planets in other galaxeys to look at? hmm... what if god did create this planet 8000 years ago, BUT what if he made the entire universe aswell as other galexies and life forms before he made this one? sorta like adding on to your house or something like that.

does everyone here believe that humans are the only "intelegent" life out there?

cjgemm

09-29-2004, 13:44

If you flip the equation around to TIME = distance x rate that means you are going somewhere.

It dosen't work that way.

D=R X T

R=D/T

T=D/R

If you could travel @ 186,000 miles per/sec, it would take you 18B years to get to the furterest star from our sun.

You can travel 60 MPH in your car and if you had to go 60 miles it would take you 60 minutes to get there.

Swordslinger

09-29-2004, 13:55

Originally posted by Dorkface@Sep 29 2004, 08:24 PM

does everyone here believe that humans are the only "intelegent" life out there?
I certainly dont. Scripture does not address it directly, but there are some refferences that have been implicated by some as examples of space craft. The "chariot of fire" that is mentioned can easily be interpreted as "millstone" according to Strong's Hebrew Concordance. A millstone is round, which correlates whith cave drawings and other thing that refer to what we have called,"flying saucers". Ezekiel's wheel is another good example.

That will surely draw flames from my brothers in Christ, but I said it anyway. Not that I would be the one to know, but all will be revealed in time.

kravman4

09-29-2004, 22:09

That will surely draw flames from my brothers in Christ, but I said it anyway. Not that I would be the one to know, but all will be revealed in time.

Probably only from the Mormons (of which I am not). ;) :D

On the stars issue. My wife made an excellent point last night when we were discussing this on the road. Basically, it is my wife's view that God created earth already matured. He made Adam a man, not a child. He made trees that were already full grown so that Adam could eat the fruit. He made animals already matured, rather than needing constant care. Why not make the stars visible and everything else?

Another excellent point!

swill269

09-29-2004, 22:18

:o
what was our appendix for? it evolved from something to nothing. ;)
:cool:

gossman

09-29-2004, 23:11

Swill, the appendix was made to keep the beemer payments for the docs from lapsing. :o

Goeth27

09-29-2004, 23:19

i blame Bush.

j/k

Bret

09-30-2004, 06:18

Nope! The truth is that the appendix (not unlike the dinosaurs) is just another part of the huge elaborate plot by the Devil to confuse us. ;)

But if you must know – I blame Kerry! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 06:37

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 29 2004, 09:18 PM
:o
what was our appendix for? it evolved from something to nothing. ;)
:cool:
There is a school of thougth that says that is where some of the toxins that are pulled from your other organs go to. Which is why when/if it ruptures there are significant problems. It's only theory at this point though.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v...i1/appendix.asp (http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i1/appendix.asp)

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/...n1_appendix.asp (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/v3n1_appendix.asp)

And just to support it with a scientific reference:
http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cf...tID=3&topicID=3 (http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=0002A56A-62A5-1C72-9EB7809EC588F2D7&catID=3&topicID=3)

Just because the media say it isn't good for anything doesn't mean it isn't useful.
Brian

swill269

09-30-2004, 06:52

:o
gossman,
you win, hands down, a new beemer is on it's way to you. :lol: how is that new marlin treating you? are you ready to get rid of it yet? :lol:

taquito971,
it ruptures from infection. it was used back when we ate food raw with bones, dirt, and other extreme roughage. the appendix was like a second stomach for the real rough stuff. as time passed we learned to cook and wash our food and lost the need for such an organ. a few more centuries and it may be all gone. :eek:

the 2 creation mag articles do not seem to be written by doctors and the 3rd one is by a vet. all articles are speculation with no proof and the theory is admittedly not widely accepted by the professional community. the fact that the apes have a very similar organ while the other animals have something not, is also more of an evolutionary example than creation.
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 07:00

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 30 2004, 05:52 AM
taquito971,
it ruptures from infection. it was used back when we ate food raw with bones, dirt, and other extreme roughage. the appendix was like a second stomach for the real rough stuff. as time passed we learned to cook and wash our food and lost the need for such an organ. a few more centuries and it maybe all gone. :eek:
:cool:
You speak so matter-of-factly, were you there? Because that's not what the scientists say. Did you even check out the links?

Brian

cjgemm

09-30-2004, 07:10

You speak so matter-of-factly, were you there? Because that's not what the scientists say. Did you even check out the links?

Now you want proof where none is to be had.

swill269

09-30-2004, 07:26

:o
taquito971,
you rushed me on your rebuttal, yes i read the links. ;)
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 07:31

Originally posted by cjgemm@Sep 30 2004, 06:10 AM
You speak so matter-of-factly, were you there? Because that's not what the scientists say. Did you even check out the links?

Now you want proof where non is to be had.
Realistically, there is no proof on either side. Scientists do believe that the appendix does have a use today. People who believe it is an ancient organ no longer used argue that it has been "pressed" into this duty due to an inactivity with it's primary function. Doesn't make much sense to me but you can make your own judgements. Above all else though, to state as fact that the appendix is no longer used is wrong. Across the board it is understood that the appendix does something. The debate comes in where we decide if it is performing it's designed function or a function it randomly started performing.

Brian

swill269

09-30-2004, 07:57

:o
you mean it evolved into something else, or it recreated itself?
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 08:15

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 30 2004, 06:57 AM
:o
you mean it evolved into something else, or it recreated itself?
:cool:
No, I'm saying, and scientists tend to agree, that the appendix is an organ that is used in your immune system to absorb toxins in your body. It is my belief that it has always performed this function. My previous post was for information and stated what others, like yourself, believe happened. This process(your process, of it being something, then changing to something else entirely different) doesn't make sense to me.

Brian

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 08:19

Where do think the toxins come from that causes the apendix to blow? From the crap we call food today!! Someone recently did a study that proved that the cardboard box contains a greater food value, than the contents of cereal. These FAT people that you see around are actualy starving to death. They keep eating because their brains is telling them they need more nutrients, but its not in the food! Just Fat! You used to have to go to the circus to see a fat person.

And did you know that there have been studies in to the tonsils, (another so called "vistigule" organ) that show that men who have had tonsils removed have a highy probability to be "efeminant"? And women that have had them removed have a higher likleyhood of being less maternal, or more "masculine" than those that still have them?

We are told in Scripture to not be involved in usury,(intrest) and to let the land rest every seven years. Because of usury the farmer has to farm his land every year from fence to fence(the Word tell us that the edges are to be left) in order to keep from looseing his farm. As a result the top soil is depelted and the food has no nutritional value. Then because the soil is ruined, he has to use chemicals to fertilize the ground, hence the toxins. The Scripture aslo tells us NOT to used hybrid seeds, but since the farmer has to make his payment to the banker, he uses whatever means nesesary to have higher yields. The hybrid plants do not have the natural abilty to replell insects and he has to use more chemicals to keep the bugs off.

Your grandfathers owned there homes, today thats a rarity. Oh, and for you fellas that think since your home is paid off, that you"own" it. Miss your property tax payment a coulple years in a row and you will find out who the real "owner" is.

All of this and more from violateing ONE of God's laws. BUt thats OK, the churches teach that the Law has been done away with. But, The King said, " Think not that I come to destroy the Law"...." but to fulfill" That last time I checked "fulfill" did not mean to do away with.

Boys, we got ourselves in a mess. The sheep had better wake up!!

swill269

09-30-2004, 08:29

:o
i would say it is doing nothing because if it is removed there is no change in the rest of the body's funtions. no chemical or physical difference with or without. the example in the article referring to the removal of the womb requires some hormones to stabilize the body's funtions. removal of the gall bladder & pancreas require medication. tonsils don't seem to do much for us either. :eek:
:cool:

P.S. swordslinger, where can i read or get the info you have on the tonsils?

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 08:31

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 30 2004, 03:29 PM
:o
i would say it is doing nothing because if it is removed there is no change in the rest of the body's funtions. no chemical or physical difference with or without. the example in the article referring to the removal of the womb requires some hormones to stabilize the body's funtions. removal of the gall bladder & pancreas require medication. tonsils don't seem to do much for us either. :eek:
:cool:
".....professing to be wise, they became..." well you know the rest. ;)

swill269

09-30-2004, 08:35

:o
no i don't know the rest; tell me.
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 08:45

The tonsils are believed to help fight infection in the early years of life. Removing them now doesn't make much of a difference other than surgery (removing body parts is no longer deemed a good thing) because they are not performing a function any longer.

This website (http://www.geocities.com/gcalla1/appendix.htm) gives a good reason why we shouldn't run out and remove our appendixes. The best argument I pulled from it was that we can operate with out one lung, without a kidney, or even arms and legs. But should we run out and have them removed?

Brian

swill269

09-30-2004, 08:56

:o
yeah, i like the original parts to stay put too.
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 09:07

Then why run out and have your appendix removed? Especially when discoveries suggest that removal of the appendix causes tumors to develop?

Brian

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 09:09

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Sep 30 2004, 07:31 AM
".....professing to be wise, they became..." well you know the rest. ;)
Look it up.

Professing to be wise, they became fools. Romans 1:22

Brian

swill269

09-30-2004, 09:54

:o
swordslinger, taquito971,
well; at present we can say that goes both ways. i knew the rest, i was waiting for the swordslinging preacher to tell me.

basically you both are calling me the fool when you have less proof to justify. the bible also says you send your soul to the bottom pits of hell when you call someone a fool. it is also refered to as judging.

where i have questioned your belief; you have inferred i am a fool. why? :eek: is it my picture? :lol:
:cool:

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 10:25

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 30 2004, 04:54 PM
:o
swordslinger, taquito971,
well; at present we can say that goes both ways. i knew the rest, i was waiting for the swordslinging preacher to tell me.

basically you both are calling me the fool when you have less proof to justify. the bible also says you send your soul to the bottom pits of hell when you call someone a fool. it is also refered to as judging.

where i have questioned your belief; you have inferred i am a fool. why? :eek: is it my picture? :lol:
:cool:
I didnt call you a fool! The Scripture says that of the one who "says in his heart, there is no God" If you believe that then God is the one calling you a fool, not me.

Oh, and I am not a "preacher" and I do not prescribe to the creation teaching that the mainstream churches.

But I do love my Lord, and do not say in my heart that there "is no God".

I was not even refering to you, just the studies that you quoted.

OK?

PS I like your picture! :lol:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 10:29

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 30 2004, 08:54 AM
:o
swordslinger, taquito971,
well; at present we can say that goes both ways. i knew the rest, i was waiting for the swordslinging preacher to tell me.

basically you both are calling me the fool when you have less proof to justify. the bible also says you send your soul to the bottom pits of hell when you call someone a fool. it is also refered to as judging.

where i have questioned your belief; you have inferred i am a fool. why? :eek: is it my picture? :lol:
:cool:
I merely finished the quote. I didn't call you a fool, I only referenced the quote swordslinger started. You said you didn't know the rest. I didn't know you already knew it.

Brian

swill269

09-30-2004, 10:46

:o
see; both of you argued that i said you "called" me a fool. i specifically said "inferred". you can not take a sentence out of context to argue the point in your defence. it is like going to play a basketball game in a football uniform. yes it is a ball sport, but an entirely different game. :unsure:
:cool:

i said basicaly you are calling me a fool.

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 10:51

Originally posted by swill269@Sep 30 2004, 05:46 PM
:o
see; both of you argued that i said you "called" me a fool.* i specifically said "inferred".* you can not take a sentence out of context to argue the point in your defence.* it is like going to play a basketball game in a football uniform.* yes it is a ball sport, but an entirely different game. :unsure:
:cool:

i said basicaly you are calling me a fool.
I have nothing to defend myself from, in this debate. But I will say your debateing-FU is strong. But, if you believe you are a fool, or are offended by the Word, perhaps your heart is trying to tell you something. Maybe not, I dont know.

But I still LIKE your picture. :lol:

PS. You also "inferred" that we "inferred" You were a fool. Get this thing back into context.

swill269

09-30-2004, 11:26

:o
swordslinger,
no i'm not a fool nor do i feel like one. i am not offended by being called one or inferred to as one. i merely wish to debate.

taquito971,
you are right; your text does not infer nor call me a fool. i made an assumption based on very little fact. you were just helping swordslinger finish his. sorry, my apologies. :beer:
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 12:12

No worries.

Back to the original debate though, I think it's fair to say that all of our current organs have a use. It can be debated what the use is, whether the use is still useful(in the case of tonsils) or if it was it's intended function(such as the appendix). I still believe that our ancestors are people, and more and more of today's scholars feel this way too. I find it odd that if we evolved from some prehistoric creature that we have not found "transitional" human remains. And lots of them? Not one or two random assemblies of fragments and reconstructed bones but entire civilizations? This is by far the most confusing for me. Maybe you have some insight on this.

Brian

swill269

09-30-2004, 13:26

:o
taquito971,
we have just begun to search. we are still finding new dinasaurs every day.

we are also proving the "big bang" theory to be more true every day. the theory of "strings" has opened up a whole new concept of us living in an eleven dimension world instead of three. so far every attempt to disprove the theory has failed and only served to strengthen it (nova, GPTV). :eek:
:cool:

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 14:46

What parts of the "Big Bang Theory" are being proven today? Dinosaurs don't prove evolution. I'm talking about man. Where are the prehistoric creatures that finally evolved into humans? Where are the ancient civilizations that would have supported these ape men? Why is it so hard to find this so called "missing link" sapien? Finding new dinosaurs only proves existence of dinosaurs. Which the Bible already makes some references to.

Brian

Goeth27

09-30-2004, 15:27

Originally posted by Taquito971@Sep 30 2004, 03:46 PM
What parts of the "Big Bang Theory" are being proven today? Dinosaurs don't prove evolution. I'm talking about man. Where are the prehistoric creatures that finally evolved into humans? Where are the ancient civilizations that would have supported these ape men? Why is it so hard to find this so called "missing link" sapien? Finding new dinosaurs only proves existence of dinosaurs. Which the Bible already makes some references to.

Brian
well i thought god made earth and its only 6 thousand years old when dinasours date back to millions of years.

Taquito971

09-30-2004, 15:33

Originally posted by Goeth27@Sep 30 2004, 02:27 PM
well i thought god made earth and its only 6 thousand years old when dinasours date back to millions of years.
Today's methods of proving age are sketchy at best. Carbon dating processes are deemed flawed by even the most adamant evolutionists. Here, check this out:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/c...rbon_dating.asp (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp) And here:
http://www.kecirohomeschool.com/carbondating.htm This one is neat because it talks about all of the fragments found to have been part of some ancient human civilization:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7234/evolution.html

Carbon dating is only capable of measuring thousands of years, beyond that it isn't accurate enough to measure by.

Brian

gossman

09-30-2004, 15:57

swill, it's your picture! :lol:

swill269

09-30-2004, 17:12

:o
taquito971,
Dinosaurs don't prove evolution.
no they don't, and we have thousands of different types and have not begun to scratch the surface. why should we have the missing link right now. we are still looking and getting a little closer all the while.

Carbon dating is only capable of measuring thousands of years, beyond that it isn't accurate enough to measure by.
hell man what's a few thousand years in 10 or 20 million. it would be like giving your age in seconds instead of years (what's a few seconds in your life).

actually, the big bang theory (bbt) is a gimme in most scientific circles. however just like some do not believe man has really stood on the moon , there are some who doubt the bbt. who cares, when all is said and done and written in stone, someone will still say "bull $hi+". like i said in another post, i will extract what i can from a source and progress farther ahead. i do not wish to digress back into archaic ways of thinking or behaving. the new world has more to offer than the old. :samurai: :trooper: :lol:
:cool:

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 18:30

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 1 2004, 12:12 AM
:o
taquito971,
Dinosaurs don't prove evolution.
no they don't, and we have thousands of different types and have not begun to scratch the surface. why should we have the missing link right now. we are still looking and getting a little closer all the while.

Carbon dating is only capable of measuring thousands of years, beyond that it isn't accurate enough to measure by.
hell man what's a few thousand years in 10 or 20 million. it would be like giving your age in seconds instead of years (what's a few seconds in your life).

actually, the big bang theory (bbt) is a gimme in most scientific circles. however just like some do not believe man has really stood on the moon , there are some who doubt the bbt. who cares, when all is said and done and written in stone, someone will still say "bull $hi+". like i said in another post, i will extract what i can from a source and progress farther ahead. i do not wish to digress back into archaic ways of thinking or behaving. the new world has more to offer than the old. :samurai: :trooper: :lol:
:cool:
You are right! Most are just not going to "get it". :D

Mark Chapter 4:11-12
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

swill269

09-30-2004, 19:58

:o
swordslinger,
if i understand you correctly; you are using scriptures which parallel my philosophy.

do not think of me as anti religious; but i think of the new testament as a soap opera of life. it covers virtually every aspect of life as explained by jesus and his followers with heavy religious/commitment overtones. the new testament is a cross between legend and myth; still designed for better living through god.

i can live the bible life and not believe in any god. so can you. you chose to have a god for your life, but it makes nobody better than anyone else. nor does it give one the right to convert all souls at will. the laying on of hands or spirit without the full consent of the recipient is a personal violation IMHO.

i have a philosophy not a religion. i am not committed to my philosophy; i can add and subtract from it as my knowledge grows and my needs require, and still remain a civil, peaceful, respectful human being.
:cool:

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 20:17

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 1 2004, 02:58 AM
:o
swordslinger,
if i understand you correctly; you are using scriptures which parallel my philosophy.

do not think of me as anti religious; but i think of the new testament as a soap opera of life. it covers virtually every aspect of life as explained by jesus and his followers with heavy religious/commitment overtones. the new testament is a cross between legend and myth; still designed for better living through god.

i can live the bible life and not believe in any god. so can you. you chose to have a god for your life, but it makes nobody better than anyone else. nor does it give one the right to convert all souls at will. the laying on of hands or spirit without the full consent of the recipient is a personal violation IMHO.

i have a philosophy not a religion. i am not committed to my philosophy; i can add and subtract from it as my knowledge grows and my needs require, and still remain a civil, peaceful, respectful human being.
:cool:
Oh no!! :o You got me all wrong. I believe once you give wittness to someone if they refuse you, dust offf you feet and move on. You know the scripture, you can probaly tell me where it is. Im too lazy to look it up. :D I do not believe that everyone will be converted, nor did Christ teach that. But I do believe every knee will bow. ;)

Those are my beliefs, that bothers some people, because they too have the Law written on their hearts. Hebrews 8:8. Thats why they struggle so much, its an internal battle, they, like Jacob are wrestling with God. They know what science teaches about the age of the earth, and they know the mainstream churches teach non-sense. Science and the Word of God, do not contradict. But, truth is not free, The Word says "Buy truth and do not sell it" Know the truth has some drawbacks. It will get you kicked out of most churches. :( Not like I would know though. ;)

No we dont agree, but this would be a boreing place if we did, right? :D

swill269

09-30-2004, 20:56

:o
swordslinger,
my younger brother spent his life from 12 to 48 years old living for christianity. he earn a masters in theology from RICE. he was assigned a church in which the pastor had just retired. after a few months in service he made the statement similar toI believe once you give wittness to someone if they refuse you, dust offf you feet and move on.

well two weeks later just before my brother started the sermon; the elders of the church stood up and boldly announced they were moving their letter to a sister church. their reason was they were not following a preacher who would not persist in testifying until the soul was saved/converted. they extended the offer to leave to everyone else and left.

this left my brother a bit confused as it should. he began to talk to me about it knowing my beliefs on the subject. what could i say, i told you so; not hardly. his faith is now personal between him and his god. you would never know he was a preacher until you ask him about religion. there is no place in a church for him anymore. but he sure comes in handy for researching christianity, translating greek and hebrew text, looking up scriptures, etc.

we see each other more now than we did when we lived together as kids with mom. this gives me the impression organized religion does more harm than good.
:cool:

Dorkface

09-30-2004, 22:00

ya know your guys last posts pretty much sum up my feelings on everything. I dont like the people who go out and try to strong arm you into believeing their religion and i also think a persons relationship with god is personal and doesnt matter if it happens under a church roof. it also seems i might be in the same position as Jacob but as i dont have a bible handy i dunno. would you mind helping me out with that one swordslinger? I've found this whole thread intersting and i always like finding out more information on subjects. :usa: :beer: :ar15:

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 22:09

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 1 2004, 03:56 AM
:o
swordslinger,
my younger brother spent his life from 12 to 48 years old living for christianity. he earn a masters in theology from RICE. he was assigned a church in which the pastor had just retired. after a few months in service he made the statement similar toI believe once you give wittness to someone if they refuse you, dust offf you feet and move on.

well two weeks later just before my brother started the sermon; the elders of the church stood up and boldly announced they were moving their letter to a sister church. their reason was they were not following a preacher who would not persist in testifying until the soul was saved/converted. they extended the offer to leave to everyone else and left.

this left my brother a bit confused as it should. he began to talk to me about it knowing my beliefs on the subject. what could i say, i told you so; not hardly. his faith is now personal between him and his god. you would never know he was a preacher until you ask him about religion. there is no place in a church for him anymore. but he sure comes in handy for researching christianity, translating greek and hebrew text, looking up scriptures, etc.

we see each other more now than we did when we lived together as kids with mom. this gives me the impression organized religion does more harm than good.
:cool:
Yeah, it is a shame. Churchianity has become that way. The message is a masculine one, but in losts of churches the elderettes are the ones running the show. The preacher teaches from the above verse, and at the dinner table Mrs. Elderette dosnt like it because its so harsh. (insert girly voice here :D ) I do not think that preachers should intrap themselves by becomeing"employed" and getting on the "retirement program". When you do that, then you have to teach what the elders and elderettes want them to teach. Or as Trump would say, "Your Fired!" Paul set a good example, "made tents". In other words, he did not rely on the church to feed him, at first.

I will pray for your brother as this must have been devestating to him, Be carefull not to direct him away from his Lord, he may resent you later on. Just some friendly advice.

An old preacher told me once, that you should not preach unless you absolutly can not stand to do anything but preach. The Word teaches us: "Be not many of you teachers, as you shall incur stricter judgement" I believe that comes from God, and from the so called "bretheren".

Christians need to" step outside the box" so to speak and seek the truth concerning this "(6 day creation, everyone decended(evolved) from Adam, the flood was world wide, Noah's son populate the planet, and similar nonsense" Not to mention the dinos on the boat theory) and they will see awhole new gift that has been given to them. But, It will NOT boad well for the mainstream "judeo" churchianity, once people learn the truth. Poeple are a little funnie when lie too. Thats why punishment for false prophets were so severe.

By teaching litterally from the sections that require figurative, and figurative from what should be litteral, denying what right in front of their nose in regards to science, they have ran many of good men such as yourself away.

Churches (mainstream) have a list of things that are "verboten" to speak of. If they do they loose there tax exempt status. The government wants to make sure the churches do not have the effect that the Clergy did during the Revolutionary War. As a matter of fact, King George ordered all of the Preachers rounded up and replaced with Ipiscaple priest. He did that about the time He came for all the shot, powder,muskets and those who posesed them.

Preachers today create what Karl Marx said was an "Opiate to the people" Marx, Lennin, Stolin didnt mind those kind of churches. But the ones that taught the TRUTH about whos Kingdom and how it should be run. Those ole boy were expendable.

It is obvious to me that you are a good man, Im not gonna knock my Rocky's together just yet. IM if you want some of the non mainstream teachings. I promise that if I send you some tapes and such, that you wont hear from me again, dont even have to send them back unless you want to. No, Im not trying to cram any of the "creationist" stuff down ya. But I will take my time to compile it in a manner that you can grasp the teaching. You will find many of us think much more scietifficaly than most of the other churches out there.

Let me know, and I would like your brother first name, for prayer, if you will.

Can you find me a "Swordslinging Preacher" Avatar :D

As long as it dosnt look like your baby picture you used for yours. :lol:

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 22:27

Originally posted by Dorkface@Oct 1 2004, 05:00 AM
ya know your guys last posts pretty much sum up my feelings on everything. I dont like the people who go out and try to strong arm you into believeing their religion and i also think a persons relationship with god is personal and doesnt matter if it happens under a church roof. it also seems i might be in the same position as Jacob but as i dont have a bible handy i dunno. would you mind helping me out with that one swordslinger? I've found this whole thread intersting and i always like finding out more information on subjects. :usa: :beer: :ar15:
http://www.justbible.com/index.htm

This is a great source that someone posted back when they were arguing about dinosaurs. :lol:

I love it!! I just saved it to my fravorites and boom its there. It great if your a dummy like me, :huh: I can just type in the words that I think are in the verse and it will seach the whole thing. COOOOOOOOOL ! B)

As you can tell, Im easily impressed. ;)

Hope this works for ya. Let me know if I can help.

Swordslinger

09-30-2004, 23:08

nighty-nite You boys stay up to late for Me!!

God Bless & say your prayers. :D

swill269

09-30-2004, 23:10

:o
swordslinger,
my job is not to convert but befriend. my brother (Paul) is more in touch with me than ever before. i avoided him to keep the conflict down and not be an influence on my neice.

my non-mainstream teachings are just that, not gospel. i benefit from buddhism and enlightenment through understanding cause and effect is a better teacher for me. it teaches me i am responsibile for my actions, nobody else.

this is the best i can do on short notice.

Taquito971

10-01-2004, 06:59

Dorkface's comment above got me thinking. I'm not trying to convert anyone here. This isn't the place for such things in my opinion. I'm discussing evolution and creation. Somehow it keeps coming back to church but that isn't(or maybe wasn't) the intended discussion. I have a feeling it's reverting back to church because no one can debate the Evolution and Creation theory any more. I'm not going to debate Church on this board because it hurts too many feelings. Am I missing something?

Brian

Metaldoc

10-01-2004, 07:40

Brian
I sense and feel your frustration on this. But when you discuss Creation or Evolution it comes down to matters of faith and belief in God or rejection thereof. And talking about God leads to discussions of church. And as we see here, there are a great many divurgent views on the church. There is just no way that you are going to have complete agreement here.

Swordslinger

Jesus tells us that if we take up His cross, we will be persecuted on His behalf. It is obvious that is indeed the case. You are taking the heat here. Any of us that take a stand for Him feel the immediate results. Most mainstream churches today have wandered far from the truth of His teachings. They are watering everything down to appease members in an effort to get more. The philosophy has evolved into tell people what they want to hear.

I know there is much I don't know and understand, but I am searching and learning. We have His Promise that if we study the Word and look for His truth, we will find it. That is the problem. How many of us actually spend a significant amount of time in studying His Word. Is it too boring ? More fun elsewhere? There is little on TV worth watching anymore and we all know very little truth about anything is found on the airwaves. The more I study the Word, the stronger my faith becomes. Yeah, detractors say the Bible can be interpreted any way you want it. I disagree. If you study with an open heart, it will impart its truths. Some will have hearts that will not open.

This has been debated here at length. As the Bible says, "shake the dust off your sandals and move on". And so I am.... but I will walk with the Lord.

Metaldoc :usa:

Taquito971

10-01-2004, 10:19

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Oct 1 2004, 06:40 AM
Brian
I sense and feel your frustration on this. But when you discuss Creation or Evolution it comes down to matters of faith and belief in God or rejection thereof. And talking about God leads to discussions of church. And as we see here, there are a great many divurgent views on the church. There is just no way that you are going to have complete agreement here.
Thanks for the kind words Metaldoc. I think I'm going to step out of the rest of this conversation. I enjoyed the discussion on Evolution and Creation but I'm not up for debating my Lord or the church. I'm quite certain I'd take it personally and I don't want to put anyone in that posistion.

See you guys in the Mini-14 forum.

Brian

Swordslinger

10-01-2004, 10:32

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Oct 1 2004, 02:40 PM
Brian
I sense and feel your frustration on this. But when you discuss Creation or Evolution it comes down to matters of faith and belief in God or rejection thereof. And talking about God leads to discussions of church. And as we see here, there are a great many divurgent views on the church. There is just no way that you are going to have complete agreement here.

Swordslinger

Jesus tells us that if we take up His cross, we will be persecuted on His behalf. It is obvious that is indeed the case. You are taking the heat here. Any of us that take a stand for Him feel the immediate results. Most mainstream churches today have wandered far from the truth of His teachings. They are watering everything down to appease members in an effort to get more. The philosophy has evolved into tell people what they want to hear.

I know there is much I don't know and understand, but I am searching and learning. We have His Promise that if we study the Word and look for His truth, we will find it. That is the problem. How many of us actually spend a significant amount of time in studying His Word. Is it too boring ? More fun elsewhere? There is little on TV worth watching anymore and we all know very little truth about anything is found on the airwaves. The more I study the Word, the stronger my faith becomes. Yeah, detractors say the Bible can be interpreted any way you want it. I disagree. If you study with an open heart, it will impart its truths. Some will have hearts that will not open.

This has been debated here at length. As the Bible says, "shake the dust off your sandals and move on". And so I am.... but I will walk with the Lord.

Metaldoc :usa:
The spiritual wisdom of some here is astounding!!!! Another big Amen to the Metaldoc!!!

"It is obvious that is indeed the case. You are taking the heat here."
No! I have taken no heat at all compared to some of my brethren today. The people who really were persecuted were the early Christians. But, dont think for a minute that Christians are not persecuted today.

"Most mainstream churches today have wandered far from the truth of His teachings. They are watering everything down to appease members in an effort to get more. The philosophy has evolved into tell people what they want to hear. "

Sad, but again true!

"I know there is much I don't know and understand, but I am searching and learning."

Seek and ye shall find!! True!! Some people dont look.

"Some will have hearts that will not open."

True, the Word bares it out in the afore mentioned scriptures.

"This has been debated here at length. As the Bible says, "shake the dust off your sandals and move on". And so I am.... but I will walk with the Lord."

A BIG,DEEP, Manly, man, AMEN!!!

Glory be to God!!!

Swordslinger

10-01-2004, 21:39

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 1 2004, 06:10 AM
:o
swordslinger,
my job is not to convert but befriend. my brother (Paul) is more in touch with me than ever before. i avoided him to keep the conflict down and not be an influence on my neice.

my non-mainstream teachings are just that, not gospel. i benefit from buddhism and enlightenment through understanding cause and effect is a better teacher for me. it teaches me i am responsibile for my actions, nobody else.

this is the best i can do on short notice.
Thanks!!! I file that one. Im looking for a "Swordslinging Preacher" Litteraly! :lol:

THanks, Prayers sent for Paul, tell him to hang in there and build tents. But, to only preach if he can not stand not to.

cabdmd

10-01-2004, 21:47

Wow there sure is a lot of posts for this topic. I usually don't go here, but I couldn't resist this topic.

If anyone is a evolutionist you have more faith than a I do. Even from Darwin to Crick the conclusion is that evolution is a bankrupt thesis. If one considers the 'eye', that organ system has to function completely from the beginning. There is no way the concept of vision can evolve little by little. Likewise, look at anything that has complexity. There has to be a creator behind the design. It is true with machinery and no less true with a living organism.

The fact is that people so want to disavow God that they will invent anything to supplant Him. All I can say is you can deny gravity all you want, but if you jump off the roof you will see that your opinion doesn't matter.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phl 2:10,11

The question is: are you going to bow in praise and adoration or not.

Dorkface

10-01-2004, 21:58

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 1 2004, 07:59 AM
Dorkface's comment above got me thinking.
whoa thats scary. especially since i couldnt make that bible site work to find out what wasup with jacob lol. i tried every trick in my book and it didnt work lol. :beer:

cabdmd

10-01-2004, 22:05

dorkface, what was your question or what were you looking to find?

Swordslinger

10-02-2004, 09:53

Originally posted by Dorkface+Oct 2 2004, 04:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dorkface @ Oct 2 2004, 04:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Taquito971@Oct 1 2004, 07:59 AM
Dorkface's comment above got me thinking.
whoa thats scary. especially since i couldnt make that bible site work to find out what wasup with jacob lol. i tried every trick in my book and it didnt work lol. :beer: [/b][/quote]
Dorkface,

I got in without a hitch on the KJV website. I was referreing to the story of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of the Lord. He thought it was his enemy, his brother Esau/Edom, but in fact it was God. Im no intelictual by any means, :blink: as some here enjoy pointing out. But what I was getting at, is we sometimes "wrestle" with these new "revelations" that science has offered us, but God, who has written His law on our hearts(Hebrews8:8), is telling us that something is not right. The "Big Bang THEORY" is basicaly saying that if a book factory blew up, the is a high likelyhood that a full set of Encycopedias would land in a stack, bound and glued, in order, indexed, and a library index card would be there right on top waiting to be filed. Or if a HomeCenter exploded the result would be a subdivision.

It just dont pan out! I aint buying it! :blink: Told you I was no intelectual, ;) but according to God's Word, I aint no fool either! :lol:

kravman4

10-02-2004, 16:51

is gives me the impression organized religion does more harm than good.

"Organized religion" (in the form of Christianity) brought us out of the dark ages.

Laws forbidding murder, stealing, and rape; what do you think they are based upon? Our Founding Fathers were not Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim, they were Christian!

Now, I will completely agree with you that some churches tend to cause a gap to form between all other "non-Christian" relations. These churches are doing more harm than good. When he walked this earth, Jesus had fellowship with publicans, tax-collectors, and other "sinners" of that day. Churches should be equipping their members to engage their world and culture and make a positive impact for Christ.

Don't take your brother's example and assume that all churches are like that....they aren't.

AR15_Fanatic

10-02-2004, 18:30

"Organized religion" (in the form of Christianity) brought us out of the dark ages.

Uh, actually Christianity, in the form of Catholicism, kept us IN the Dark Ages. And the Protestants of that era wern't much better, either. It was a return to the classical sciences, mathematics, architecture, physics (not to mention the end of fearing such things as instruments of Satan) and art in The Rennisance that pulled us out of the Dark Ages. The printing press and subsequent education of the general public greatly helped as well.

Laws forbidding murder, stealing, and rape; what do you think they are based upon?

While it is true that these were strictly forbidden by the Torah and Pentateuch (Jewish form of the Old Testament), virtually every culture in the world forbids these acts, religiously based or not.

Our Founding Fathers were not Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim, they were Christian!

Many were, but not all. Franklin, Jefferson and others were more Deists than anything else.

Swordslinger

10-02-2004, 18:48

Originally posted by AR15_Fanatic@Oct 3 2004, 01:30 AM
[QUOTE

Many were, but not all. Franklin, Jefferson and others were more Deists than anything else.
Yeah old Tom did write a "bible" translation that excluded all of the works of Christ.

That dosnt mean a thing to belivers in Christ that worship Him.

Krav is right, not all Christian Churches are the same. As a matter of fact, most Churches are NOT Christian, but some watered down, hippy-dog, love child, love everybody, be obedient to your masters cult instituted by those in high authority. True Christianity, "turned the world up-side down". Where would that put the people on top? On the bottom!! Ceaser would have loved this thing we call "christianity" today. Be obedient, pay your taxes, enslave your children, keep your religion inside the "four walls", do not resist authority, ect.. If Christianity was what they teach today, why would Ceaser want to get rid of it? All he would have to do is "count the money" coming in from these places.

cabdmd

10-02-2004, 20:08

These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the *Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:14

kravman4

10-02-2004, 20:28

Good point cabdmd.

nagalfar

10-02-2004, 20:40

Swordslinger said;True Christianity, "turned the world up-side down" That is the work of men and not Christianity, you can not blame the religion for what men do with it, and use it to do, Islam is a great example.

:usa:

kravman4

10-02-2004, 20:45

Uh, actually Christianity, in the form of Catholicism, kept us IN the Dark Ages.* And the Protestants of that era wern't much better, either.

First point: The Dark Ages was not brought on by Christianity, rather a distorted form of Christianity (when the Christian faith is distorted to such a degree as it was in the dark ages, it can no longer be considered Christianity).

Second point: Catholicism is not Christianity. When I go door to door evangelizing and I ask a Catholic (unknown to me at the time) if they are a Christian, they almost always say "No, I'm a catholic." The crux of the Christian faith is that Jesus Christ died on the cross as a sacrafice for the sins of His people. This sacrafice is sufficient. Most Catholics don't believe Christ's sacrafice is sufficient. The believe they must do good deeds, be baptized, etc in order to enter heaven. This difference in doctrine makes Catholicism quite different from Christianity.

It was a return to the classical sciences, mathematics, architecture, physics (not to mention the end of fearing such things as instruments of Satan) and art in The Rennisance that pulled us out of the Dark Ages.* The printing press and subsequent education of the general public greatly helped as well.

It is true that the Renaissance played a large role in pulling countries such as Italy and Greece out of the dark ages, but eastern Europe, especially England, enjoyed a return to the sciences that was largely based on scripture. The founders of modern science - Galileo, Kepler, and Newton - all were Christians.

You mentioned the printing press helped pull us out of the dark ages; what was the first book the Johann Gutenberg printed with his new press? The Gutenberg Bible of course!

While it is true that these were strictly forbidden by the Torah and Pentateuch (Jewish form of the Old Testament), virtually every culture in the world forbids these acts, religiously based or not.

Quite true. But our nation wasn't founded in buddhism, hinduism, shintoism, or islam, was it? Our nations laws were based on the Ten Commandments of the Bible.

Were some signers of our Constitution not Christian? We know for a fact that a small number of the signers weren't Christian. Does that mean we weren't a Christian nation? Nope. Just means a few weren't Christian. The majority were.

Swordslinger

10-02-2004, 21:49

Originally posted by nagalfar@Oct 3 2004, 03:40 AM
Swordslinger said;True Christianity, "turned the world up-side down" That is the work of men and not Christianity, you can not blame the religion for what men do with it, and use it to do, Islam is a great example.

:usa:
I was quoteing from Scripture about how the authorities felt at the time.

Acts 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

When the evil are on top, Id say it was good timing.

My point was, If Christianity was then as it is now, why would the authorities mind? They could have appointed their leaders in the church and made a bundle without switching to geiko. :D

Swordslinger

10-02-2004, 21:50

Originally posted by cabdmd@Oct 3 2004, 03:08 AM
These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the *Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:14
Ditto!!! Perfect positioning in this post for that Scripture. :D

I would also like to add that I am among so very wise Christian Soldiers here, much, much smarter than myself. I am very pleased at the post count and hits on the topic. Some very serious Christian wittnessing has taken place. And if only one came away and thought, "Im I doing the right thing?" "Should I seek the Lord and His plan for my salvation?" Then praise the Lord!!!

To those that are His
May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May make His face shine upon you and be gracious unto you.
May He lift His countenence upon you, and grant you peace.
In the name of Jesus Christ, our ONLY King!!!! May He come quickly!! :)

Dorkface

10-02-2004, 22:44

Originally posted by Swordslinger+Oct 2 2004, 10:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Oct 2 2004, 10:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Dorkface@Oct 2 2004, 04:58 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Taquito971@Oct 1 2004, 07:59 AM
Dorkface's comment above got me thinking.
whoa thats scary. especially since i couldnt make that bible site work to find out what wasup with jacob lol. i tried every trick in my book and it didnt work lol. :beer:
Dorkface,

I got in without a hitch on the KJV website. I was referreing to the story of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of the Lord. He thought it was his enemy, his brother Esau/Edom, but in fact it was God. Im no intelictual by any means, :blink: as some here enjoy pointing out. But what I was getting at, is we sometimes "wrestle" with these new "revelations" that science has offered us, but God, who has written His law on our hearts(Hebrews8:8), is telling us that something is not right. The "Big Bang THEORY" is basicaly saying that if a book factory blew up, the is a high likelyhood that a full set of Encycopedias would land in a stack, bound and glued, in order, indexed, and a library index card would be there right on top waiting to be filed. Or if a HomeCenter exploded the result would be a subdivision.

It just dont pan out! I aint buying it! :blink: Told you I was no intelectual, ;) but according to God's Word, I aint no fool either! :lol: [/b][/quote]
i guess i was trying to literal of a search i guess. i didnt know enough about the passage to find it... which seems backward but the search function just does word matching. ohwell. thanks for your help though. and dont worry i believe your smarter and wiser then i am lol.

cabdmd

10-02-2004, 23:28

swordslinger, when I first read your moniker, I didn't realize what sword you meant!

I heard a quote tonight that was
"You only have one life to live, and if lived right then one is all you need."

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The Judgment Seat of Christ
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Those who trust in the Lord for their salvation at death are immediately present with the Lord. There is another judgement for the unsaved. It is the decision of the unsaved that condemns them not God, but He is just and the consequence of that rejection is separation from Him forever.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

We can't bring anything to the table; He has done it all.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8,9

The gospel of John is written that we might believe.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His *own, and His *own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1,10-13

(His own in this passage refers to the Jews) This isn't to say that all rejected Him. There where many who did receive, but as a nation they didn't.

The passage of Jesus and the man blind from birth in John 9 where the Pharisees are questioning the man who received his sight reads.

24 So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, "Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner."
25 He answered and said, "Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see."

The Pharisees would not acknowledge Jesus as the sson of God, but they couldn't reject this man's testamony. Read it for yourself, receive Jesus as Lord and Savior and let God give you your own testamony.

Swordslinger

10-03-2004, 11:35

[QUOTE=cabdmd,Oct 3 2004, 06:28 AM] swordslinger, when I first read your moniker, I didn't realize what sword you meant!

I heard a quote tonight that was
"You only have one life to live, and if lived right then one is all you need."

Ahh.. But whats really important is whether or not you live again. The quote from above did not come from me. It is the complete antithesis of what I believe.

Thanks for your words, you seem to know the Word very well. However the Gospel plan of Salvation is very clear. Allthogh there are many things in scripture that require searching, the things that are most important are there on the surface
1st Timothy 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

However, some things are to be seached out. Salvation though, is very, very clear!

The Sword of the Word is the most powerful weapon in the world. To be used to rightly divide the truth.

cabdmd

10-03-2004, 12:38

I am very pleased at the post count and hits on the topic. Some very serious Christian wittnessing has taken place. And if only one came away and thought, "Im I doing the right thing?" "Should I seek the Lord and His plan for my salvation?" Then praise the Lord!!!
Amen to that. I pray also that God would soften some hearts here to see the truth. Pilate asked "What is truth?" when Jesus was standing right in front of him.

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.John 17:17
Jesus is the Truth and the Word.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So if you hear His voice, don't harden your hearts, but answer the call.
Truth or Consequences, there is the turth and there are consequences. You can be Biblically right or Biblically left, and you don't want to be left behind.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

He saved us, not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5

What a concept, because He loves us He offers us as a gift a new life, a new heart. We only need to receive. All that we have ever done is forgiven, old things are passed away, all things are become new. Praise God

jszy

10-03-2004, 22:05

BBT is not-so-slowly becoming less and less acceptable as a "beginning of time / universe" answer. Even Stephen Hawking, one of the most brilliant minds regarding this, and a former fervent "banger," is changing his opinion. Strings are fine, AFTER there is already a universe.

zero-time is the same in BBT as it is in evolution.... ya can't get something from nothing. Our most powerful human minds do not seem to be capable of understanding that. According to the laws of the universe as we know them, you can't get a universe to bang out of a pure nothingness,,, any more than you can get life to appear out of nonlife. The reason this argument keeps going is because lots of brainiacs refuse to put God in the equation... They can not come up with any answers as to WHAT sparked the beginning of the universe, or what lit off a living system, but fercryinoutloud IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING OTHER THAN A CREATOR!!

Things would be popping up all over the durn place if that was so. It ain't so difficult to accept.

Taquito971

10-04-2004, 08:06

Originally posted by jszy@Oct 3 2004, 09:05 PM
The reason this argument keeps going is because lots of brainiacs refuse to put God in the equation
Perfect! That is the problem with society today. Today's generation refuse to put God in the equation. Excellent post jszy!

Brian

Swordslinger

10-04-2004, 09:37

Originally posted by jszy@Oct 4 2004, 05:05 AM
.... ya can't get something from nothing.
That reminds me of another story that has been used as an illustration, I will tell it as I remember it.

The scientist of earth had come together and decided they no longer had a need for God. They called upon Him to let him know that they were smart enough to run things on thier own, and He could go along on His merry way. They exclaimed that they could now build their own human, without God's help.

The Lord said, "OK, but before I go, shall we have a liitle freindly contest to make sure you are up the task at hand" They proudly insisted that they did not need Him, and said, "sure, what ever little "game" you have in mind, we are confident we will win."

The Lord said, "let us make it simple then, we will start by makeing a man."

The "inteligencia" said, "OK! let us gather some dirt."

The Lord said, "Woh! Woh! Woh! , hold on there a minute "smart" boy. You go get your own dirt."

:lol:

Swordslinger

10-04-2004, 16:56

Oh! I forgot to add. WOW!! 12 Pages :o

swill269

10-06-2004, 06:16

:o
jszy,
.... ya can't get something from nothing.

where did your god come from then?
:cool:

stooxie

10-06-2004, 08:01

Originally posted by Taquito971+Oct 4 2004, 07:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taquito971 @ Oct 4 2004, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jszy@Oct 3 2004, 09:05 PM
The reason this argument keeps going is because lots of brainiacs refuse to put God in the equation
Perfect! That is the problem with society today. Today's generation refuse to put God in the equation. Excellent post jszy!

Brian [/b][/quote]
You really think so? You think the problems with kids today is lack of religion?

How many gangbagers do you see (interviewed on TV, in papers, etc) have crosses
hanging on their necks? A LOT.

How many jerk kids go to temple or church every weekend? A LOT

How many people ignore the positive messages of religion (like love your neighboor)
and walk away with the negative ones (like kill the infidel)? A LOT

I think it's not LACK of religion but that fact that organized religion has NOTHING to do with
spirituality and being a good person.

Heck, it's been posted right here on this board, that Catholism ain't Christianity because it
requires such hogwash as "doing good deeds."

I love it! Maybe if you put REASON and EDUCATION into the equation instead of just religion
people might have a CLUE about how to live.

Perfect example: teaching abstinance rather than safe sex. Totally insane. Religion just expects
you to deny every urge in your teenage body, for fear of God of course, and just abstain. What
about those who don't? Well, there's no point in giving them the tools they need to deal with
the situation because they are just going to rot in hell anyway. THEN, we can vote against
ALL the welfare laws that will take care of YOUR ABSTINANCE ONLY WELFARE BABIES.
Then, when they grow up to be gang bangers we can say it's because THEY DON"T HAVE
RELIGION.

Nice circle, eh?

-Stooxie

Metaldoc

10-06-2004, 08:16

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Revelation 22:13

The above comes straight from the Almighty Himself. It is His Word.
You have to take it on faith. Just as some take evolution on faith. They are poking holes in all the evolution theories every day as more is learned. It's not hard to find the info if you are willing to look for it.

But don't worry, the day is coming when all will be revealed to us. Just don't let it be too late for you.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not on your own understanding.
Proverbs 3:5

Don't you know? Haven't you heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, does not get weary? That His understanding is uncomprehensible to us? Isaiah 40:28

Metaldoc

Taquito971

10-06-2004, 08:47

Originally posted by stooxie+Oct 6 2004, 07:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Oct 6 2004, 07:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 4 2004, 07:06 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-jszy@Oct 3 2004, 09:05 PM
The reason this argument keeps going is because lots of brainiacs refuse to put God in the equation
Perfect! That is the problem with society today. Today's generation refuse to put God in the equation. Excellent post jszy!

Brian
You really think so? You think the problems with kids today is lack of religion?

How many gangbagers do you see (interviewed on TV, in papers, etc) have crosses
hanging on their necks? A LOT.

How many jerk kids go to temple or church every weekend? A LOT

How many people ignore the positive messages of religion (like love your neighboor)
and walk away with the negative ones (like kill the infidel)? A LOT

I think it's not LACK of religion but that fact that organized religion has NOTHING to do with
spirituality and being a good person.

Heck, it's been posted right here on this board, that Catholism ain't Christianity because it
requires such hogwash as "doing good deeds."

I love it! Maybe if you put REASON and EDUCATION into the equation instead of just religion
people might have a CLUE about how to live.

Perfect example: teaching abstinance rather than safe sex. Totally insane. Religion just expects
you to deny every urge in your teenage body, for fear of God of course, and just abstain. What
about those who don't? Well, there's no point in giving them the tools they need to deal with
the situation because they are just going to rot in hell anyway. THEN, we can vote against
ALL the welfare laws that will take care of YOUR ABSTINANCE ONLY WELFARE BABIES.
Then, when they grow up to be gang bangers we can say it's because THEY DON"T HAVE
RELIGION.

Nice circle, eh?

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
Just because some gangbanger wears a cross on his neck doesn't make him a Christian, or even religious. It's jewelry. It means nothing.

Just because you go to church doesn't make you religious, it doesn't make you a good person, it doesn't mean you walk with God. This is very simple.

If you IGNORE the messages given by God how can you expect to blame religion for people's problems?

Call it what you wish but abstaining from sex is not that difficult. Teaching "safe sex" is what is causing alot of the problems in the first place. Unwanted children, born out of wedlock, being treated poorly at home because mommy and some guy were having safe sex and whatever contraceptive they were using didn't work.

You have some odd ways of looking at things Stooxie. Good luck to you.

Brian

2 gun

10-06-2004, 09:01

One theory I heard of and tend to believe is that God /Heaven is not three dimensional he is perhaps fourth dimensional or perhaps 10000 dimensional l . It was explained to me like this. Lets say there is a two dimensional being here on earth and we can see him and interact with him .and lets say he can see us and interact with us.now lets say both beings are on a High table looking over the edge and we tell the two diminutional being , to stop or he will fall. he has no idea what we are talking about because to him he only sees a line where the edge is not the actual drop off because as a two dimensional being he sees in two dimensions and is oblivious to the third dimension . Just as we cannot comprehend another dimension because we are limited to three dimensions. For us to say there can be no more than three dimensions is very limited thinking. Then could it be posable that our place in the next dimension is determined by what we do or do not do here in this one. Could it be at least posable that the next dimension is governed by a being that determines where we are place in that dimension.

It amazes me that beings here now say what GOD I see no GOD or heaven therefore they must not exist all the while stepping closer and closer to the edge.

stooxie

10-06-2004, 09:19

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 6 2004, 07:47 AM
Just because some gangbanger wears a cross on his neck doesn't make him a Christian, or even religious. It's jewelry. It means nothing.

Just because you go to church doesn't make you religious, it doesn't make you a good person, it doesn't mean you walk with God. This is very simple.

If you IGNORE the messages given by God how can you expect to blame religion for people's problems?

Call it what you wish but abstaining from sex is not that difficult. Teaching "safe sex" is what is causing alot of the problems in the first place. Unwanted children, born out of wedlock, being treated poorly at home because mommy and some guy were having safe sex and whatever contraceptive they were using didn't work.

You have some odd ways of looking at things Stooxie. Good luck to you.

Brian
You're right that going through the motions does not mean you have religion. I am just pointing
out that I think religion is failing the kids rather than the kids are failing religion.

However, I promise you that teaching kids about safe sex is not causing all the problems today.
Listen closely to a little secret: people have sex. <insert blood curdling scream here>

So, let's teach people to use a freakin condom and maybe the welfare babies won't be there.

Think I'm pulling this out of my hind quarters? How about this.

My cousin-in-law is a Born Again Christian. They surely teach only abstinance. Well, the
young one didn't abstain. It's a funny thing about human physilogy that women's
resistance is lowest when their ovulating. But why teach them the devil's knowledge?

Anyway, now at 17 my cousin-in-law is pregnant. Her Christian school kicked her out
because, hey, the last thing a single mother needs is an education. I guess the Lord,
and Uncle Sam, will provide.

You want to talk about poking holes in arguments? I'll go all day long on this one.

One simple fact: education is always preferable to ignorance.

-Stooxie

Taquito971

10-06-2004, 10:27

You can't argue that abstinence causes people to have sex. Saying sex is ok, is what causes people to have sex. Think of it like this. Driving a car is dangerous. Many people die in cars. If you stay at home your chances of death as the result of an automobile accident are none. If you teach people to drive safely they will still run the risk of dying. It's simple. Abstinence will not cause people to have sex. A false notion of "safe sex" will cause people to have sex. It's safe right? If you wear a condom your chances are less, not none, of creating a pregnancy. If you abstain, you'll get no pregnancies. Guaranteed.

Brian

swill269

10-06-2004, 13:27

:o
taquito971,
If you stay at home your chances of death as the result of an automobile accident are none.
you are not thinking about what you are saying. automobiles come in and get you sleeping, eating, playing, etc. :eek:
:cool:

Taquito971

10-06-2004, 13:45

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 6 2004, 12:27 PM
:o
taquito971,
If you stay at home your chances of death as the result of an automobile accident are none.
you are not thinking about what you are saying. automobiles come in and get you sleeping, eating, playing, etc. :eek:
:cool:
I'm not sure I'm following your thought process here. Are you saying that an automobile is going to drive through my house and injure me while I'm at home?

Brian

swill269

10-06-2004, 19:33

:o
taquito971,
i'm saying it could happen. your saying it can't happen. pick another analogy! :confused:
:cool:

tri70

10-06-2004, 20:27

stooxie, abstain is not that hard for us married guys!! :lol:
I think it is what we are being educated on like Taquito said, the only safe sex is no sex. Handing out condoms says its ok have fun, but they don't like condoms and roll the dice. Everyone also knows about condoms like they know about religion. We can learn alot about reading God's word, I just found one that seems to fall between the cracks of us good Christians. Mark 12:29-33 referring to the greatest commandment and I have been guilty of not loving my neighbor enough. It says that loving you neighbor is more important than all of the burnt offerings and sacrifices. I know I have failed at this one but I pray everyday to be a better wittness which is at times very trying and other times very easy.

-God bless tri :usa:

Swordslinger

10-06-2004, 21:09

Originally posted by stooxie@Oct 6 2004, 04:19 PM
I think religion is failing the kids rather than the kids are failing religion.

On this point, we agree! :)

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 06:34

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 6 2004, 06:33 PM
:o
taquito971,
i'm saying it could happen. your saying it can't happen. pick another analogy! :confused:
:cool:
You are nitpicking. I think you got the point. YOU CAN'T GET PREGNANT IF YOU DON'T HAVE SEX. YOU CAN GET PREGNANT IF YOU DO. THE ONLY SAFE SEX IS NO SEX.

Make sense now?

Brian

stooxie

10-07-2004, 06:42

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 6 2004, 07:27 PM
stooxie, abstain is not that hard for us married guys!! :lol:
I think it is what we are being educated on like Taquito said, the only safe sex is no sex. Handing out condoms says its ok have fun, but they don't like condoms and roll the dice. Everyone also knows about condoms like they know about religion. We can learn alot about reading God's word, I just found one that seems to fall between the cracks of us good Christians. Mark 12:29-33 referring to the greatest commandment and I have been guilty of not loving my neighbor enough. It says that loving you neighbor is more important than all of the burnt offerings and sacrifices. I know I have failed at this one but I pray everyday to be a better wittness which is at times very trying and other times very easy.

-God bless tri :usa:
I understand what your saying and from a logical standpoint it is certainly true that no sex is the safest sex.

The problem with this is that if teens do have sex abstinance training does not provide the tools they need to deal with it.

Yeah, I guess it's a tough problem but I still think arming kids with knowledge is better than just instilling fear (of God). Teens are rebelious and teaching fear doesn't work. The best you can do is beat into them that teenagers only trail white rabbits in fertility and the moment they drop their pants, POW, a baby.

If you just teach abstinance, they won't understand that. They will think "Well, look how long it took Ralph's parents to have a kid, there's no way it can happen to me one time." Maybe they'll think if they pray it won't happen.

The other really wierd thing that a Catholic friend of mine brings up is the whole no-condom thing. She says "It's strange that we teach kids not to have sex but also teach them not to use a condom. If they are going to break one rule, they might as well do themselves a favor and break them both."

She's totally correct. This is how religion fails our kids. It's hard for them to digest all the mixed messages and succeed.

-Stooxie

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 06:45

I don't agree. Maybe church is failing our kids, but our kids are failing religion.

Brian

stooxie

10-07-2004, 06:50

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 7 2004, 05:34 AM
You are nitpicking. I think you got the point. YOU CAN'T GET PREGNANT IF YOU DON'T HAVE SEX. YOU CAN GET PREGNANT IF YOU DO. THE ONLY SAFE SEX IS NO SEX.

Make sense now?

Brian
Taquito,

No rational person will deny that.

Now go and watch over all 500 million horny-as-hell teens in the world and make sure they don't do it. Make sure that they are perfect and never screw up, for they walk in the path of the rightious.

The funny thing is the Christianity works against kids at so many levels here.

1. Don't have sex
2. Don't teach about safe sex, no need, right?
3. If they DO get pregnant, no abortion
4. Their lives are over

THEN people tell themselves "Well, it was all God's plan." It's totally defeatist.

Teach kids that they HAVE control, they HAVE the power to affect their own lives and MAYBE THEY WILL.

-Stooxie

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 06:56

I know plenty of people for whom this has worked. It's made for some very happy people.

The bible doesn't address this "safe sex" because it shouldn't. I learned all I need to know about this alleged "safe sex" in school. As early as 5th grade. Far earlier than necessary. Even if children who have babies don't get an abortion they could put the child up for adoption. There is a long waiting list for people who can't have children to get a baby.

Their lives are not over. I'm not perfect. I sinned, and my girlfriend and I had sex. She got pregnant, she didn't get an abortion. I have a son, and we are married. My life isn't over. Her life isn't over. I have a good job, and I have a house, and two cars, and apple pie. All is well.

Brian

swill269

10-07-2004, 07:06

:o
PARENTS fail the kids, don't blame it on any social group. damned folks can't manage their kids want to blame everyone else for their mistakes. just like "corporate america" has been laying off/retiring some of the worlds most talented employes for the last 15 years because of "THEIR" mismanagement.

it is time the real problems stand up and take the resposibility.
:cool:

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 07:12

I completely agree with that. Parent's are to blame the most. And ultimately I place all the blame on them. Paren't should rely on religion to help them, and as a foundation(notice I said religion, not church) having faith with good moral rules and a solid backing will inevitably make for better people. But parent's are the backbone.

Brian

swill269

10-07-2004, 07:16

:o
taquito,
you are wrong again, artificial insemination has no sex acts involved and the republicans proved clinton had "sex" but there is no way monica could have gotten pregers (safe sex).

i am not nitpicking; you are confusing. :confused:
:cool:

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 07:43

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 7 2004, 06:16 AM
:o
taquito,
you are wrong again, artificial insemination has no sex acts involved and the republicans proved clinton had "sex" but there is no way monica could have gotten pregers (safe sex).

i am not nitpicking; you are confusing. :confused:
:cool:
I feel like I'm talking to a four year old. I knew I should have stayed out of this. I'm taking this far to personally.

With artificial insemination you must do things that are not normally done. This isn't a normal process and isn't sex. You are right about that. You know exactly what I am talking about. If you wan't to condone sex between minors go ahead. It's the beginning of the end. "Safe sex" will get you babies. Oral sex is only the beginning. Keep in mind though, that even with oral sex you can pass diseases, not a desireable process in my lifestyle. Go for it, tell your kids to have sex all they want as long as they use a condom. But then don't go and blame religion for "failing" your kids when you find out your son got a girl pregnant or, if it's your own daughter who's gotten pregnant. Maybe this "safe sex" should extend to your wives as well. It's safe right? It's just fun. No problems there.

Brian

stooxie

10-07-2004, 07:51

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 7 2004, 05:56 AM
My life isn't over. Her life isn't over. I have a good job, and I have a house, and two cars, and apple pie. All is well.

Brian
Brian,

Ok, so you ignored it all, did what you wanted and you're still good? I imagine you are
still planning on getting into heaven given that you have found the right path.

I ask you then, where is the real consequence? What price did you pay for not following the scripture to the letter? Goose egg.

This is a big problem I have with all this. Gosh, you are saying here what kids shouldn't do, you DID it, and all is well? Where do I sign up??

Now tell me THAT doesn't encourage kids to just do what they want. Hey, I can screw around now, drink, have fun, steal, whatever. At about 30, when I'm tired, I'll take the name of Jeses and all will be forgiven.

My whole in-law family is like that. They were total criminals in their youth, but it's
alllllllllllllll good now that they found Jesus.

-Stooxie

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 07:55

You'd think so. But it has to be genuine. Humans are sinners. God knows that. You ask for forgiveness. If it's genuine, Jesus will forgive you. It's impossible to be perfect. Sin has been around since the beginning of man(remember Genesis?) It's how you deal with it that matters.

I should mention I'm not Catholic. I'm Christian. Things are different when you are Catholic. I've not grasped all the differences though. And I won't pretend I to know either.

Brian

stooxie

10-07-2004, 08:00

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 7 2004, 06:43 AM
Go for it, tell your kids to have sex all they want as long as they use a condom. But then don't go and blame religion for "failing" your kids when you find out your son got a girl pregnant or, if it's your own daughter who's gotten pregnant. Maybe this "safe sex" should extend to your wives as well. It's safe right? It's just fun. No problems there.
Hey, you're taking this to the extreme. I haven't seen any posts here saying that kids should engage in every bacchanalian delight at every opportunity.

What I am trying to say is that when self-control fails, as it does every now and again, I'd like to know that my kids have a CLUE about how their bodies work so they can make INTELLIGENT choices.

Sure, you can argue that the decision to have pre-marital sex already eliminates the intelligence factor but that is purely a sociological standpoint. If my kid ignores me and has sex, I at least want her smart enough to use protection. If my kid ignores me and plays with fireworks, she better be smart enough not to hold the damn thing in her hand.

Here's another little trick:

I can TEACH my kids about things like this WITHOUT necessarily condoning it. I can say "don't have sex because you'll get pregnant. Comdoms CAN be used to prevent this but they have to be used properly, etc, etc." Or, I can say "Fireworks are fun but very dangerous. People hold them in their hands and don't realize how powerful they are. Then they blow their hands off."

See? I don't say "Sweetie, I know you have no self-control so here's a box of condoms. Now go break some hearts!"

I think this is better than saying "Don't have sex because... well, the Lord says no." It leaves too much to the imagination, especially for something so irresistable.

-Stooxie

stooxie

10-07-2004, 08:05

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 7 2004, 06:55 AM
You'd think so. But it has to be genuine. Humans are sinners. God knows that. You ask for forgiveness. If it's genuine, Jesus will forgive you. It's impossible to be perfect. Sin has been around since the beginning of man(remember Genesis?) It's how you deal with it that matters.

I should mention I'm not Catholic. I'm Christian. Things are different when you are Catholic. I've not grasped all the differences though. And I won't pretend I to know either.

Brian
If you're genuine about anything it's good.

The problem is that people too often use it all as a get-out-of-hell-free card. If I genuinely regret leading a life of crime for the last 40 years, well, I'm forgiven.

That's why I like the idea of Karma. Everything you do adds or subtracts from your grand total. That way if your a total bastard you can't just go to church every Sunday and it's ok. Similarly, if you do your best every day and are a good person, maybe you can be forgiven for an occasional slip up.

-Stooxie

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 08:23

I agree, I took it to the extreme. Swill's really making it tough for me to get my point across. He knows exactly what I'm saying but still takes it to the extreme. I went with it this time. And maybe once more....

I appreciate you being calm and collected Stooxie. You are far more realistic than Swill in my opinion.

Stooxie, are you religious? Because your comment about being forgiven for a slip up makes me think you are. If there isn't a God, why would we need to be forgiven? And you call it karma, I call it God's love. If you are a good person, and do your best to follow the 10 commandments, and slip up or make a mistake. He'll forgive you, just ask him to. If you are genuine(and I'm not convinced that some rapper, who kills four people, and makes millions and spends it all on himself is genuine) he'll forgive you. He's a loving God. Not a vengeful God.

Brian

Swordslinger

10-07-2004, 09:06

Originally posted by stooxie+Oct 7 2004, 01:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Oct 7 2004, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Taquito971@Oct 7 2004, 05:34 AM
You are nitpicking.* I think you got the point.* YOU CAN'T GET PREGNANT IF YOU DON'T HAVE SEX.* YOU CAN GET PREGNANT IF YOU DO.* THE ONLY SAFE SEX IS NO SEX.

Make sense now?

Brian
Taquito,

No rational person will deny that.

Now go and watch over all 500 million horny-as-hell teens in the world and make sure they don't do it. [/b][/quote]
That is as absurd as you going around makeing sure they are all wearing rubbers!

Children can be taught to obstain until mariage, and they will have a healthier mariage at that.

Children can also be taught to obey their parents. I think if dogs can be trained, so can children.

The double standard that so called "men" teach is one of the biggest causes. They tell the girls to wait until mariage, they tell their sons to "conquer", and sow his wild oats. Ive got news for ya, what comes around, goes around.

That the one of the biggest problems that I have with the "evolution" doctrine taught in schools today. They teach that we are all animals and its ok to behave as such. The result is teenagers running around like a bunch of dogs in heat!!!

Ask them why teenage pregnacy is rampant? "Oh, we need to teach Johny and Suzy, how to put on a rubber."

This is a perfect example of what Christ said about causeing a "little one to stumble". And the "millstone" in needed!!!

A word of warning to you fellas that teach your sons to "conquer" and "get you some". Not all Fathers will tollerate it, rubbers or no rubbers. And many who have not been neutered by the "system" or the "church" will hold YOU accountable for YOUR children!!

CAVEAT!!!

stooxie

10-07-2004, 09:49

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Oct 7 2004, 08:06 AM
That is as absurd as you going around makeing sure they are all wearing rubbers!

Children can be taught to obstain until mariage, and they will have a healthier mariage at that.

Children can also be taught to obey their parents. I think if dogs can be trained, so can children.

Yes, this is true.

However, as I said previously, it's about empowering kids to make as good a choice as they can. I am going to give my kids the tools they need to avoid stupid things like unwanted pregnancy. I am not just going to hold up the bibe and say "You see this? Now don't have sex."

Personally I think all the misdirected sexual frustration is what causes a lot of problems. Do I need to remind you all of the gay and pediphile priests? How many gay and pediphile scandals have you heard from religious leaders who are ALLOWED to have sex and relationships, like Rabbi's?

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

10-07-2004, 10:00

Originally posted by stooxie@Oct 7 2004, 04:49 PM
Do I need to remind you all of the gay and pediphile priests? How many gay and pediphile scandals have you heard from religious leaders who are ALLOWED to have sex and relationships, like Rabbi's?

-Stooxie
Stooxie,

You said you went to Hebrew school, right? Look up these references from the Talmud would ya? And post them.

Sanhedrine 54b :o

Yebamoth 59a :huh:

I DO NOT condone Catholic perverts, anymore than Jewish, or Protestant Perverts!!!

Perverts come in all flavors and they use religion to get to children"millstone anyone?"

Some religions condone it.

stooxie

10-07-2004, 10:04

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Oct 7 2004, 08:06 AM
A word of warning to you fellas that teach your sons to "conquer" and "get you some". Not all Fathers will tollerate it, rubbers or no rubbers. And many who have not been neutered by the "system" or the "church" will hold YOU accountable for YOUR children!!
I agree with this (except for the church parts).

However, telling boys to go out an conquer is a message that comes in many different forms.

Do you tell your son (if you have one) that any man that challenges him should be "corrected"? Do you tell him to be the head of his class? Do you tell him that if he takes the Lord then he is better than those that don't?

Trust me, boys will get the all ideas from plenty of other places.

-Stooxie

swill269

10-07-2004, 10:10

:o
taquito,
my good man, i do not wish to go to extremes with you, just explain to you that you must say things properly, in context, if you want people to understand your message. :beer:

kids get horny and if parents can't get the point across that disease and pregnancy are a real downer at that age and responsibility has to start somewhere; then they have failed as parents at sex 101. ;)

i also must criticize you for I should mention I'm not Catholic. I'm Christian. catholics are christians as they recognize christ, however some like martin luther protested the catholic ceremony and became another strain of christian (protestant). the christian religion is so thin and so far apart they do not even recognize one of their own. :ph34r: which christian are you? :eek:

i am not making fun of you and i respect your love for your god, however i am using you as an example of the majority of christians philosophy. "my version" is the one and all else are doomed to eternal misery.

your heart is all right, exercise your noggin a little more. :beer:

swordslinger,
you took the words right out of my mouth. believe me you do not have to know a god to know that. however if you can speak the "truth"; in the name of god, tarzan, bush or whom ever, then is it not the truth that counts and not the source? :beer:
:cool:

tri70

10-07-2004, 12:02

The Old Testament has plenty of figures with multiple wives and concubines, David and Solomon yet they were blessed by God. In the New Testment, Paul had this to say, vigins and wifes (http://www.justbible.com/biblesearch.asp?bwords=virgin&bwhere=new)

-tri

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 12:50

Bah, I'm sick of this. I promise, I won't come back this time. Seeing you guys rip God up is killing me.

Brian

Swordslinger

10-07-2004, 14:15

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 7 2004, 02:16 PM
:o
taquito,
you are wrong again, artificial insemination has no sex acts involved and the republicans proved clinton had "sex" but there is no way monica could have gotten pregers (safe sex).

i am not nitpicking; you are confusing. :confused:
:cool:
Im sure they both checked each others medical background to make sure it was (safe sex).

Or were you just "inferring" that it was (safe sex) because she couldnt get "preggers" by giveing BJ?

"Safe Sex" does not just include "preggers", it also has to do with disease, some that kill, some that that just make you wish you were dead.

Swordslinger

10-07-2004, 14:23

Originally posted by Taquito971+Oct 7 2004, 02:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taquito971 @ Oct 7 2004, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-swill269@Oct 7 2004, 06:16 AM
:o
taquito,
you are wrong again, artificial insemination has no sex acts involved and the republicans proved clinton had "sex" but there is no way monica could have gotten pregers (safe sex).

i am not nitpicking; you are confusing. :confused:
:cool:
I feel like I'm talking to a four year old. I knew I should have stayed out of this. I'm taking this far to personally.

With artificial insemination you must do things that are not normally done. This isn't a normal process and isn't sex. You are right about that. You know exactly what I am talking about. If you wan't to condone sex between minors go ahead. It's the beginning of the end. "Safe sex" will get you babies. Oral sex is only the beginning. Keep in mind though, that even with oral sex you can pass diseases, not a desireable process in my lifestyle. Go for it, tell your kids to have sex all they want as long as they use a condom. But then don't go and blame religion for "failing" your kids when you find out your son got a girl pregnant or, if it's your own daughter who's gotten pregnant. Maybe this "safe sex" should extend to your wives as well. It's safe right? It's just fun. No problems there.

Brian [/b][/quote]
You make a very good point.

Most of the people that are argueing "safe sex" is oral sex are probably not telling their daughters the same thing.

swill269

10-07-2004, 14:29

:o
see taquito,
if you use your noggin you can catch the "voo doo" man. don't go away, i apologize for being irritating to you.

you got me swordslinger, i failed to see and deal with the whole pic myself. :lol: i failed to consider clinton or monica may be diseased. :lol:
:beer: :cool:

Swordslinger

10-07-2004, 14:36

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 7 2004, 09:29 PM
:o
see taquito,
if you use your noggin you can catch the "voo doo" man. don't go away, i apologize for being irritating to you.

you got me swordslinger, i failed to see and deal with the whole pic myself. :lol: i failed to consider clinton or monica may be diseased. :lol:
:beer: :cool:
POO-POO :D

Where is that ignore button? :lol: Im not going to start withyour "four year old" non-sense. You know what I meant as well as Taquito. You "inferred" oral sex was as you put it "(Safe Sex)" Your "fu" grows weak. :lol:

swill269

10-07-2004, 15:28

:o
that is right, i failed to think about passing disease via oral sex. unless oral sex means just talking about it. :lol:
:cool:

Taquito971

10-07-2004, 15:43

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 7 2004, 01:29 PM
:o
see taquito,
if you use your noggin you can catch the "voo doo" man. don't go away, i apologize for being irritating to you.
Al right al right. You know I can't stay out of it anyways. But only because you asked so nicely ;)

It's driving me nuts though. I argue a point, to the point where it is undeniable, then you agree, with me, and still say it's bad. I just don't get it.

Brian

swill269

10-07-2004, 18:13

:o
taquito,
you made your point very well and did not need a "for example". :beer: then when you did use one it was not a fool proof example. even if you were to stay on the moon you could possibly be in an auto accident with the moon buggie. if you went to a desert island you could not logically be struck by a car though. i picked on you a little too hard and for no real good reason other than for you to see your choice of words/examples could have been better.

your point was well taken and as you see i failed to think through a statement i made and it bit me. :lol:

the mighty sword of the slinger hath cut deep,
the scar will serve as a reminder to look before i leap. :samurai:

sorry i pi$$ed you off.
steve

stooxie

10-07-2004, 19:38

Originally posted by Swordslinger+Oct 7 2004, 09:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Oct 7 2004, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-stooxie@Oct 7 2004, 04:49 PM
Do I need to remind you all of the gay and pediphile priests? How many gay and pediphile scandals have you heard from religious leaders who are ALLOWED to have sex and relationships, like Rabbi's?

-Stooxie
Stooxie,

You said you went to Hebrew school, right? Look up these references from the Talmud would ya? And post them.

Sanhedrine 54b :o

Yebamoth 59a :huh:

I DO NOT condone Catholic perverts, anymore than Jewish, or Protestant Perverts!!!

Perverts come in all flavors and they use religion to get to children"millstone anyone?"

Some religions condone it. [/b][/quote]
I wouldn't take those stories to heart any more than I would any other. I don't need a bunch of contradicting parables to tell me how to be a good human being. I think it's pretty damn obvious how to be a good human being yet noone ever things for themselves. We need someone else to dictate.

Remember I said BOTH hebrew and catholic schools were equally demonstrative in their lack of values.

I'm not saying that any religion condones perversion, and I know Catholics are extremely upset over these incidents.

What I meant to say by bringing up that issue was the when you place too many restrictions on people all they can do is fail.

-Stooxie

stooxie

10-07-2004, 20:26

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 7 2004, 11:50 AM
Bah, I'm sick of this. I promise, I won't come back this time. Seeing you guys rip God up is killing me.

Brian
To make a distinction I am not ripping God, I am taking great exception with how people decide to follow God.

I find that people take whatever verses from the bible that suit their needs at a given time. There are so many , and they are so vague and some are so contradictory that really you can take it all to mean whatever you like.

That's why I keep saying that if people spent HALF the time THINKING about what it means to be a decent person as opposed to waiting for something else to clue them in the world would be a better place.

It's very simple: I want a religion that teaches doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do not because your going to be smitten if you don't. I don't live my life in fear. If you do, enjoy. Just don't tell me that you don't live in fear on account of following the Lord (Jesus, whoever) because there are 100 posts here that clearly show that fear is the #1 motivator.

How many posts end in this:

"Just you wait, His final judgement will come and all will be revealed."

Fear.

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

10-07-2004, 22:52

Originally posted by Swordslinger+Oct 7 2004, 05:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Swordslinger @ Oct 7 2004, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-stooxie@Oct 7 2004, 04:49 PM
Do I need to remind you all of the gay and pediphile priests? How many gay and pediphile scandals have you heard from religious leaders who are ALLOWED to have sex and relationships, like Rabbi's?

-Stooxie
Stooxie,

You said you went to Hebrew school, right? Look up these references from the Talmud would ya? And post them.

Sanhedrine 54b :o

Yebamoth 59a :huh:

I DO NOT condone Catholic perverts, anymore than Jewish, or Protestant Perverts!!!

Perverts come in all flavors and they use religion to get to children"millstone anyone?"

Some religions condone it. [/b][/quote]
Stooxie! Hey Stooxie! You there? :o Can you find these or should I? They refer to others of which you mentioned. :lol:

stooxie

10-08-2004, 04:43

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Oct 7 2004, 09:52 PM
Stooxie! Hey Stooxie! You there? :o Can you find these or should I? They refer to others of which you mentioned. :lol:
There's no way I am going to win in a "My scripture can beat up your scripture" contest :) . It's irrelevant anyway because that's not the tool I use to run my life.

Plus, you think they teach Talmud at hebrew school? Come on. All they teach there is how to chant better and faster than your fellow classmates.

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

10-08-2004, 08:22

Originally posted by stooxie+Oct 8 2004, 11:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Oct 8 2004, 11:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Oct 7 2004, 09:52 PM
Stooxie!* Hey Stooxie!* You there? :o* Can you find these or should I?* They refer to others of which you mentioned. :lol:
There's no way I am going to win in a "My scripture can beat up your scripture" contest :) . It's irrelevant anyway because that's not the tool I use to run my life.

Plus, you think they teach Talmud at hebrew school? Come on. All they teach there is how to chant better and faster than your fellow classmates.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]

I thought maybe you had a copy of the Soninco 1961 addition of the Babylonian Talmud laying around, if you do, page 57 is interesting too, near the end in my copy.
For anyone interested, do a google. :P, I have, and its quite interesting to say the least.

tri70

10-08-2004, 09:49

I'm going to change the direction a little to give thought about animals and humans. I don't believe animals to posess the capability to do evil acts. Not that they won't protect themselves or their home from harm or being eaten. But they don't roam the Earth looking for things or animals to destoy. We are separated by thoughts of good and evil. Animals do the same thing they have always done since they were created.

another one open topic under creation or evolution or both.
I enjoy the good debating that goes on here! I hope I don't affend but provide a good insite for my wittness in Christ.

-tri :usa:

stooxie

10-08-2004, 10:36

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 8 2004, 08:49 AM
I'm going to change the direction a little to give thought about animals and humans. I don't believe animals to posess the capability to do evil acts. Not that they won't protect themselves or their home from harm or being eaten. But they don't roam the Earth looking for things or animals to destoy. We are separated by thoughts of good and evil. Animals do the same thing they have always done since they were created.

another one open topic under creation or evolution or both.
I enjoy the good debating that goes on here! I hope I don't affend but provide a good insite for my wittness in Christ.

-tri :usa:
Sounds good to me.

-Stooxie

swill269

10-08-2004, 10:51

:o
tri70,
first what does an animal think is mean and cruel or do they? we think a cat killing and playing with a little bird is cruel; what about the cats view? ;)
:cool:

Swordslinger

10-08-2004, 12:38

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 8 2004, 04:49 PM
I'm going to change the direction a little to give thought about animals and humans. I don't believe animals to posess the capability to do evil acts. Not that they won't protect themselves or their home from harm or being eaten. But they don't roam the Earth looking for things or animals to destoy. We are separated by thoughts of good and evil. Animals do the same thing they have always done since they were created.

another one open topic under creation or evolution or both.
I enjoy the good debating that goes on here! I hope I don't affend but provide a good insite for my wittness in Christ.

-tri :usa:
Good point. It is clear that we differ greatly from animals. Some do anyway.

tri70

10-08-2004, 12:55

A cat killing a bird or mouse is instinct of survival but not an act of evil. All animals act out of need to survive "eat or be eaten". Evil would be something of a human trait which it is easy to act on sometimes but we constantly fight our will and try to do good.

-tri :usa:

swill269

10-08-2004, 16:11

:o
I don't believe animals to posess the capability to do evil acts.

what about dogs that kill children? :eek:
:cool:

tri70

10-08-2004, 16:17

I've only been bit by dogs in there own yard, defending their territory. I still don't believe it was evil intent. ;)

-tri :usa:

Swordslinger

10-08-2004, 16:37

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 8 2004, 11:17 PM
I've only been bit by dogs in there own yard, defending their territory. I still don't believe it was evil intent. ;)

-tri :usa:
Dogs can be bred to have advanced survival as well as preditory traits. But, for that matter so can people. It all comes down to training.

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Some people are trained from a very young age to be immoral. They dont call it television "PROGRAMING" for nothin, ya know. ;)

Just as "they" daily train them that if they are Christian, they are evil. Read between the lines in movies for children and you will see what Im speaking of.

I also agree that it is different from evil, but if you believe in evolution, as it is being taught, that Dommer was just a throw back from his prehistoric ancestors.

swill269

10-08-2004, 16:37

:o
tri70,
would you call it a bad temper or evil? what do you call the dog fights/cock fights, do they become evil? :huh:
:cool:

tri70

10-08-2004, 16:57

I think they are doing what they have done since day one, they fight for domanance, "top dog runs the pack", and the "cock of the walk" get the hens for breeding. I still beleive instinct that is being abuse by the evil intent of humans.

-tri :usa:

Swordslinger

10-08-2004, 17:17

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 8 2004, 11:57 PM
I think they are doing what they have done since day one, they fight for domanance, "top dog runs the pack", and the "cock of the walk" get the hens for breeding. I still beleive instinct that is being abuse by the evil intent of humans.

-tri :usa:
Its a trap!! He's trying to get you to admit to "natural selection". ;)

swill269

10-08-2004, 18:21

:o
i stayed up last night to watch the christian/creation program on one of the christian networks. the host was quoting from a recently published creation book.

his "world famous" professors, physicists, astronomers, archeologists, etc., which where quoted for the book; are not. they work in small schools, some christian colleges and other private colleges. they are virtual unknowns.

accordingly; god stretched the heavens at creation and the flood. because of the inner and outer radius differences the heavens stretched much farther and faster than the core (earth). the inside rotates slower in speed than the outside of a ball or wheel. this is how the light years of distance between us and stars, galaxies and other universes is explained. because they believe in einstien's theory of relativity; light, time and space are locked together and move as one, the earth is 6000 years old while things farther away are older because they traveled so far , so fast when god stretched the heavens.

they say the soil layers here, which are full of artifacts/fossils, are only a few hundred years old each. they have no faith in carbon dating because it is flawed with annual carbon level fluctuations (only on items more than 6000 yr old.) when a known 2000 yr old item is carbon dated around jesus time, it is accurate enough to accept.

it appears to me they have taken facts, myths and author's liberty, to denounce evolution. in order to believe this; carbon dating must be completely ignored and "earth" must be the center of all universes, galaxies and stars.

nearly 40 yrs ago at&t confirmed the universe was expanding via the doppler effect. the given positions of stars 40 yrs ago have changed as predicted by the BBT. this also proved the earth is not the center of all light, time and space.

i can not confirm this; but i have been told by theologians, the book is cataloged as fiction. (please correct me if i'm wrong) i have also been told the book was not written by anyone with a degree in any of the above mentioned sciences. (again i do not know this to be fact.)

that's my .0002 cents worth.
:cool:

Swordslinger

10-08-2004, 19:00

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 9 2004, 01:21 AM
:o
i stayed up last night to watch the christian/creation program on one of the christian networks. the host was quoting from a recently published creation book.

his "world famous" professors, physicists, astronomers, archeologists, etc., which where quoted for the book; are not. they work in small schools, some christian colleges and other private colleges. they are virtual unknowns.

accordingly; god stretched the heavens at creation and the flood. because of the inner and outer radius differences the heavens stretched much farther and faster than the core (earth). the inside rotates slower in speed than the outside of a ball or wheel. this is how the light years of distance between us and stars, galaxies and other universes is explained. because they believe in einstien's theory of relativity; light, time and space are locked together and move as one, the earth is 6000 years old while things farther away are older because they traveled so far , so fast when god stretched the heavens.

they say the soil layers here, which are full of artifacts/fossils, are only a few hundred years old each. they have no faith in carbon dating because it is flawed with annual carbon level fluctuations (only on items more than 6000 yr old.) when a known 2000 yr old item is carbon dated around jesus time, it is accurate enough to accept.

it appears to me they have taken facts, myths and author's liberty, to denounce evolution. in order to believe this; carbon dating must be completely ignored and "earth" must be the center of all universes, galaxies and stars.

nearly 40 yrs ago at&t confirmed the universe was expanding via the doppler effect. the given positions of stars 40 yrs ago have changed as predicted by the BBT. this also proved the earth is not the center of all light, time and space.

i can not confirm this; but i have been told by theologians, the book is cataloged as fiction. (please correct me if i'm wrong) i have also been told the book was not written by anyone with a degree in any of the above mentioned sciences. (again i do not know this to be fact.)

that's my .0002 cents worth.
:cool:
I will have to agree with you, but the mainstream "creationist" have some thing to hide. Why? To protect their tax exempt status. It is obvious that the earth is older than six thousand years, it is obvious that all men did not come from Adam, it is obvious that all men did not "evolve"( and that is the only way you can describe it) from Noah's three sons because of there enviroment, it is obvious that Canann was not cursed into a black man, wheww!

Many Christians will flame me for what I have said. All I can say is that I have been booted out of bigger and better churches than this one. :lol: :D Fact is, if your church is NOT being persecuted, you should review their teachings. <_< And by persecution, I dont mean folks not speaking to you in the grocery store. :P

And! And it is obvious that there was and is a Creator involved. I believe that the God of the Christian Bible is that Creator, and He came to us in Flesh, and died for our sins. There was a reason for it, if you study it out.

Do I believe that you must believe as I? No!
Do I belive that you have a right to believe in whatever "god" you desire? Yes! Do I believe that my God will make every knee bow? Yes!
Do I believe that you can worship whatevery "god" you wish and still make it to the prize? No! And I wouldnt be much of a Christian if I did.

My point is this, if you do not believe the mainstream creationist doctrine taught in the churches today, there are things that make sense. You will be surprized at what you have missed.

Swill,

Your allright. :D

The Spirit wittnesses to me that you are in search of answers.

Man, my fingers are sore. :(

tri70

10-08-2004, 19:12

If you read the book of Isaiah, if you don't mind me posting a Bible verse and some scripture, just for conversation. Lucifer was second in command next to God himself but became vain and wanted to ascend higher than God. Here is the link on Isaiah chapt 14 Isaiah 14 (http://www.justbible.com/Chapters/b23C014.htm#V12), he was cast down before nations. I have not figured out the nations it refers to because Lucifer was and angel then cast down to become the devil, this takes place before the fall of man in the garden of Eden. It still interesting to read about Babalon being broken and Israel being strengthened by strangers, maybe the US.

interesting for talk, swill?

-tri

swill269

10-08-2004, 19:40

:o
tri70,
interesting for talk, swill?
sure, i would not hang out here if i was not interested. :beer:

there is also a religion which believes the new testement is written by satan and that jesus was he (archangel). the earth was hell and he was cast out by the overwhelming refusal of him by mankind.

the bible teaches suffering, sacrificing, humbling, tithing, abstinence, sobriety, etc. these are not natural ways for man to live. however; being weak and being told the meak would inherit the earth, there were and still are followers.

this theory has been around at least 40 yrs, that is when i became aware of it.

swordslinger,
The Spirit wittnesses to me that you are in search of answers.
always man, always! :beer: you can never learn or know too much. ;)
:cool:

BlenderWizard

10-10-2004, 08:12

Originally posted by Bret@Sep 25 2004, 09:49 AM
IMHO – If the earth was created in 7 days.

Who can truly say what is a day in the in the eyes of the Lord.

My $0.2
Exactly, as our "days" are based on our position relative to the sun. I know some people who think Earth is only like 6000 years old, but was created to look very very old. WTF is that about?

BlenderWizard

10-10-2004, 08:19

Originally posted by Bret+Sep 25 2004, 02:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bret @ Sep 25 2004, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by stooxie@Sep 25 2004, 11:18 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 09:49 AM
IMHO – If the earth was created in 7 days.

Who can truly say what is a day in the in the eyes of the Lord.

My $0.2
Now that's about the smartest thing I've ever heard on the subject.

-Stooxie
Thanks, but please don't misunderstand me. I actually voted for Both.

Mainly because I’m just of the opinion that it’s a bit arrogant of us to think that we can fully comprehend “time” from the Lord’s perspective.

That said – I understand that I could be wrong, but I tend to think that as long as it might seem to us that we are here on earth. It is probably but a millisecond (conceptually speaking) to a celestial deity. Especially one that was here before time began and will remain so - long after this little speck of dirt we call earth is so much cosmic dust.

Kind of a deep subject I know. Please forgive me if I offended anybody. But that’s just how I feel on the subject. I guess the only way we will ever know for sure is when we are standing before St. Peter at the Pearly Gates.

Until that "TIME" (pardon the pun) - God Bless the USA!
:usa: [/b][/quote]
I believe "time" is a creation of man to help us sort things out

Taquito971

10-10-2004, 08:54

Originally posted by BlenderWizard+Oct 10 2004, 07:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlenderWizard @ Oct 10 2004, 07:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 09:49 AM
IMHO – If the earth was created in 7 days.

Who can truly say what is a day in the in the eyes of the Lord.

My $0.2
Exactly, as our "days" are based on our position relative to the sun. I know some people who think Earth is only like 6000 years old, but was created to look very very old. WTF is that about? [/b][/quote]
To create an environment where all of the plants and animals had already been mature. If they weren't you would not have been able to expect the animals to survive. I mean, they need nutrients from mature plants, animals need nutrients when they are young to help them grow. If they weren't already mature, how could be expect them to live beyond starvation time?

"If you denounce one part of the bible, then where does it stop?"

Brian

stooxie

10-10-2004, 11:18

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 10 2004, 07:54 AM
"If you denounce one part of the bible, then where does it stop?"

Brian
I dunno, sanity?

How about this one:

Deut. 21:18-21

The streets would be red with the blood of our children if you believe this one. There is NO person on earth that does not denounce, either implicitly or explicitly, some part of the bible.

If you don't like the word "denounce," pick one that makes you feel less guilty.

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

10-10-2004, 12:37

Originally posted by stooxie+Oct 10 2004, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Oct 10 2004, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Taquito971@Oct 10 2004, 07:54 AM
"If you denounce one part of the bible, then where does it stop?"

Brian
I dunno, sanity?

How about this one:

Deut. 21:18-21

The streets would be red with the blood of our children if you believe this one. There is NO person on earth that does not denounce, either implicitly or explicitly, some part of the bible.

If you don't like the word "denounce," pick one that makes you feel less guilty.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
This certainly would take care of the school shootings and murders, rape, and sodomy commited by teenagers, wouldnt it? ;) Maybe God knew what He was talking about? ;)

According to scripture, Numbers 14:29 I believe, People under the age of 20 were not held acountable for there deeds. All those under twenty at the time of the nations cowardice, went into the land of the Cannanites. ALL of those 20 and over died in the wilderness with exception of Joshua and Caleb, who feared not the Cannanites.

It is clear that these "rebelous, stuborn, drunkards, and gluttons" are over the age of twenty. If, If you care to search out the truth.

I didnt look this up so if anyone does, please post the correct references.

stooxie

10-10-2004, 12:43

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Oct 10 2004, 11:37 AM
It is clear that these "rebelous, stuborn, drunkards, and gluttons" are over the age of twenty. If, If you care to search out the truth.

I didnt look this up so if anyone does, please post the correct references.
I cannot believe what I am hearing. Again, pick and choose when and what to
believe.

How many people here have said that they found God after being an alcoholic or
being into drugs, or otherwise questionable lifestyle? Were you over 20? If
so, you should have been executed. NO SECOND CHANCES.

What the heck does being over 20 have to do with it? Do you duty and
start stoning people, including your OWN children.

I repeat: people take the bible literally when they like (for example the anti-gay
stuff) and they "interpret" what they like (i.e. this)

-Stooxie

BlenderWizard

10-10-2004, 14:42

How about someone find me EXACTLY what was originally written (translated to English of course) and we can all just shut up. Not our current iteration of the bible, but exactly what the original authors of the books wrote.

Swordslinger

10-10-2004, 14:45

Originally posted by stooxie+Oct 10 2004, 07:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Oct 10 2004, 07:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Oct 10 2004, 11:37 AM
It is clear that these "rebelous, stuborn, drunkards, and gluttons"* are over the age of twenty.* If, If you care to search out the truth.

I didnt look this up so if anyone does, please post the correct references.

How many people here have said that they found God after being an alcoholic or
being into drugs, or otherwise questionable lifestyle? Were you over 20? If
so, you should have been executed. NO SECOND CHANCES.

What the heck does being over 20 have to do with it? I repeat: people take the bible literally when they like (for example the anti-gay
stuff) and they "interpret" what they like (i.e. this)

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
Ahhh. Thats what the Blood of Christ is for. But you must apply it to your life.Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

That "for the remission of sins" is the same greek phrase used in Acts 2:38.
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Some do pick and choose, but Christ said in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

For those that quote Paul and say, "but the Law is done away..." often leave off the end of that statement, "for rightousness sake". Romans 10:44

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." If we think that Christ death on the cross took trichenosis out of pigs flesh, we are wrong. If we think that Christ death means we can ignore the 7th year land rest, we are wrong. Just look at whats happening to the top soil and the endangered species. ALL can be traced back to our disobeying His Law. That is the part of The Message that relates to health and prosperity, no longer for rightousness as before.

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

There are 35 New Testement Scripture that are for the Law still being valid. There are 27 that have been used to say the Law is done away. You cant do that. The ones that claim to be for the Ten Comandments and agaist the Law dont jive. The WHOLE Bible is harmanized for those who care to study and not just swallow what some preacher tells you.

The Law is clear on adultry, kiddnaping, homosexuality, and a whole host of others. But Christ died that we might be released from sin,...should we chose to apply the Blood.

Hebrews 9:
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Your just upset that pointed out your arguement for stoneing little kids is full of holes. What does it have to do with being twenty you ask? People over twenty are not children.

Believe what you want stoox, you just cant say,"Lord, I didnt know" anymore. The ball is in your court, what you do with your life is up to you.

stooxie

10-10-2004, 15:07

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Oct 10 2004, 01:45 PM
Your just upset that pointed out your arguement for stoneing little kids is full of holes. What does it have to do with being twenty you ask? People over twenty are not children.
I'm not upset and actually you are corroberating my point very nicely. :)

The bible does need to be studied as a whole so people can see which points
are softened and which are repealed in later chapters.

However, I see lots of singular quotes all the time to justify actions that are
certainly not condoned after all.

Herein lies the exact problem. People, doing what people do, are apt to
take singular verses as the only word and miss things that might negate
or qualify them.

:beer:

-Stooxie

Swordslinger

10-10-2004, 15:11

Originally posted by stooxie@Oct 10 2004, 10:07 PM

take singular verses as the only word and miss things that might negate
or qualify them.

:beer:

-Stooxie
Again we agree!!! :o Stooxie, you and I are on a roll!!! :lol: Im running out of fingers and toes to count the things that we agree on. :o

There is hope for me yet!!! :lol:

Swordslinger

10-10-2004, 15:36

Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Oct 10 2004, 09:42 PM
How about someone find me EXACTLY what was originally written (translated to English of course) and we can all just shut up.* Not our current iteration of the bible, but exactly what the original authors of the books wrote.
There are many aids that will help you. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance( and boy is it Exhautive :o ) will help. It has every word and meaning translated from the Greek in the New Testement, and from the Hebrew in the Old Testement. Young's Litteral Concordance is another. There are many translations out there, you have to remember that the King James Version was the "government approved" translation of the day. And it is translated from the masoretic text.

The New American Standard is a very good translation, and the Old Testement part were largely translated from the Septuegent, which was the greek translation that was around at the time of Christ. You can still get the Septuegent, its very interesting and many of the text that are missing in modern translations are there in black and white.

You can also find the meaning from some of the stories by looking outside the books that were pick to be called "the Bible" Such as the book of Jasher, which is mentioned twice in scripture.

The most important things to learn and know from the Word are right there for all to see, and very easy to understand.

1st Timothy 2:4
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

But some thing are hidden and need to be "searched out"

Proverbs 25:2
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter"

Beware of comentaries. Some are good, some are not. Many twist scripture to promote a certain doctrine. We can all be accused of that, so I do not know if it is intentional, or just regurgetating what they have been taught. I really dont like being told what something means, when I can search it out myself. Besides, The Spirit reaveals things to you along your walk, and you may get truths from a certain scripture that the "comentator" did not.

I dont think this is the answer you were looking for, but the something moved me to stick it on here for all those that choose to "search out". :)

Mannlicher

10-10-2004, 16:53

Evolution IS Creation. Simple as that.

swill269

10-10-2004, 17:12

:o
the old testament was written in hebrew, the new in greek originally. it was written very vague and with the intent that all could benefit from reading it. it is a compilation of all things man encounters in life (soap opera if you will). it is a text book about how to live a "good" life while here so as not worry about being punished in an after life. :ph34r:

simply put; do unto others.......... ;)

make love, not war. :beer: :eek:
:cool:

Swordslinger

10-10-2004, 18:12

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 11 2004, 12:12 AM

make love, not war. :beer: :eek:
:cool:
"man" You forgot the "man". Let me fix it for you,

"make love, not war.....man" :lol:

BlenderWizard

10-10-2004, 18:37

Originally posted by Taquito971+Oct 10 2004, 07:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taquito971 @ Oct 10 2004, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Oct 10 2004, 07:12 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Bret@Sep 25 2004, 09:49 AM
IMHO – If the earth was created in 7 days.

Who can truly say what is a day in the in the eyes of the Lord.

My $0.2
Exactly, as our "days" are based on our position relative to the sun. I know some people who think Earth is only like 6000 years old, but was created to look very very old. WTF is that about?
To create an environment where all of the plants and animals had already been mature. If they weren't you would not have been able to expect the animals to survive. I mean, they need nutrients from mature plants, animals need nutrients when they are young to help them grow. If they weren't already mature, how could be expect them to live beyond starvation time?

"If you denounce one part of the bible, then where does it stop?"

Brian [/b][/quote]
So you're saying you think the Earth is only about 6000 years old? Then, why don't you tell me about fossils and other such things?

swill269

10-10-2004, 21:37

:o
swordslinger,

COOL MAN! FAR HEAVY!

would this fit your picture of a updated "swordslinger" preacher man extreme?
:cool:

Taquito971

10-10-2004, 22:41

Originally posted by BlenderWizard@Oct 10 2004, 05:37 PM
So you're saying you think the Earth is only about 6000 years old? Then, why don't you tell me about fossils and other such things?
Did you know that when we carbon date things we don't even carbon date the objects found? We carbon date the dirt and rock it's found *in*? In the cases where we have carbon dated the fossil itself we have found radically different results? Results that actually re-enforce Creation and not evolution? Results much closer the 6,000 or so years estimated by the bible?

Brian

Taquito971

10-10-2004, 22:44

Originally posted by stooxie+Oct 10 2004, 10:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Oct 10 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Taquito971@Oct 10 2004, 07:54 AM
"If you denounce one part of the bible, then where does it stop?"

Brian
I dunno, sanity?

How about this one:

Deut. 21:18-21

The streets would be red with the blood of our children if you believe this one. There is NO person on earth that does not denounce, either implicitly or explicitly, some part of the bible.

If you don't like the word "denounce," pick one that makes you feel less guilty.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
Fair enough. I have to say, I feel that if we went with this action. We wouldn't have near as many problems as we do. I for one, would never have been subject to such punishment. And if that were the end result to young adults who didn't behave there would be far less misbehavers.

As for God and the age of accountability. Your scripture didn't match Swordslinger. Further research shows that there is no age of accountability. Common sense and logic have to kick in. When does your child know better and when does he not? As a parent you have to make the decision.

Brian

Swordslinger

10-10-2004, 23:15

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 11 2004, 04:37 AM
:o
swordslinger,

COOL MAN! FAR HEAVY!

would this fit your picture of a updated "swordslinger" preacher man extreme?
:cool:
That even looks like me, well the hair cut anyway. :lol:

Swordslinger

10-10-2004, 23:24

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 11 2004, 05:44 AM
[

As for God and the age of accountability.* Your scripture didn't match Swordslinger.* Further research shows that there is no age of accountability.
Numbers 14:29? Ahhh. Let me look it up....here.

29" Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me."
Those that were over twenty were held accountable, those that were under twenty were not. Thats why Ive never grabed to the infant/child baptsm thing. But I could be wrong.

If you can show me from scripture that there is no age of accountability, or a different age, please post it, so I can mark it in my Sword. I dont recall any, and please dont say 12 because that not a Christian teaching.

If Im wrong it wont be the first time, nor the last :lol:

I have allways looked for a second wittness and thought I had found one as that was also the minimun age allowed for warfare. Please dont make me look that one up too.

stooxie

10-11-2004, 05:31

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Oct 10 2004, 10:24 PM
Numbers 14:29? Ahhh. Let me look it up....here.

29" Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me."
Those that were over twenty were held accountable, those that were under twenty were not. Thats why Ive never grabed to the infant/child baptsm thing. But I could be wrong.
Ok, but here's something I don't understand.

How can you just string completely independent versus together from totally
different chapters? Is not this the same thing that people complain about when
"the liberal media" takes things out of context, i.e. Michael Moore strining together
quotes and facts to paint what may be a very different story from reality?
(Don't get hung up on the analogy :P )

To me, it's quite a leap to apply that verse to the previous one.

-Stooxie