Evolution, Creation, or Both?

[stooxie]

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 10 2004, 09:44 PM
Fair enough. I have to say, I feel that if we went with this action. We wouldn't have near as many problems as we do. I for one, would never have been subject to such punishment. And if that were the end result to young adults who didn't behave there would be far less misbehavers.

As for God and the age of accountability. Your scripture didn't match Swordslinger. Further research shows that there is no age of accountability. Common sense and logic have to kick in. When does your child know better and when does he not? As a parent you have to make the decision.

Brian
The second part sounds great to me! Wow, common sense and logic, how about that? :beer:

As for the first part, well, I think all the people saying that better think about it for a second.
If I understand, this is very much how it is with Muslim extremists. Did your brother steal a
camel? Slice his throat. Did your wife lift her skirt one inch to avoid a puddle? Blow her
brains out. There are cultures that do this and I'm sure we all consider them quite monstrous.

This verse talks about a FATHER and his SON. I mean, think of any time your kid has ****ed
you off or if you ****ed off your father. The bible says that if you are stubbon, and a
glutton drunkard, blah, blah, you qualify. Now, let's see here... that makes you a...
senior in highschool, perhaps? Maybe a college frat boy?

Now imagine that Daddio finds you in the Phi Beta Delta house, lying there in a nice
afterglow with a beer in one hand and your arm wrapped around a pretty sorority
girl (I'm sure NONE of you good Christians ever did this). Now imagine Daddio
says "Son, I've told you 3 times now to quit these Friday night parties and just do
your studies."

So Daddio pulls out his .45, racks a round in the chamber and, knowing in his heart that
he is doing God's work, puts a nice round through your temple.

Extreme? I dunno, it's right there in black and white, and several folks on this thread have
commented on the benefits of this approach. Jeeze, it would be like freakin' Slaghterhouse 6
if people didn't doubt the bible.

-Stooxie

[Metaldoc]

Originally posted by stooxie@Oct 11 2004, 07:31 AM


How can you just string completely independent versus together from totally different chapters?

-Stooxie
The Bible is God's instruction book for life. In any course of instruction previous references are given in order to clarify a topic or give a different perspective on it.

I am extending an invitation to you in particular, Stooxie, and also Swill, Swordslinger, and all the rest of you following this thread, regardless of your beliefs, to take a few moments to hit this link. It takes just a few short minutes and you will note there are many random selected verses all driving home the same very important thing.

http://www.bittybitznpieces.com/FathersLoveLetter~.htm

I feel the Spirit working here. I admire all of you for the gentlemanly way this discussion has progressed. There is nothing wrong with searching for answers and hungering to understand.

Metaldoc

[stooxie]

Originally posted by Metaldoc@Oct 11 2004, 05:11 AM
I am extending an invitation to you in particular, Stooxie, and also Swill, Swordslinger, and all the rest of you following this thread, regardless of your beliefs, to take a few moments to hit this link. It takes just a few short minutes and you will note there are many random selected verses all driving home the same very important thing.

http://www.bittybitznpieces.com/FathersLoveLetter~.htm

Metaldoc,

Thank you for the link, I read the whole thing and found it very
uplifting.

Things like that are clearly the best side of religion and faith. That
is what I mean by being inspired to do good as opposed to scared
from doing bad.

The genesis (ha!) of a lot of the "doubt" in these posts came about
from the fear mongering. If all religion was as pure an expression of
love and kindness as this, I think we would all be much better
believers.

-Stooxie

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by stooxie+Oct 11 2004, 12:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Oct 11 2004, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swordslinger@Oct 10 2004, 10:24 PM
Numbers 14:29?* Ahhh.* Let me look it up....here.


29" Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me."
* Those that were over twenty were held accountable, those that were under twenty were not.* Thats why Ive never grabed to the infant/child baptsm thing.* But I could be wrong.
Ok, but here's something I don't understand.

How can you just string completely independent versus together from totally
different chapters? Is not this the same thing that people complain about when
"the liberal media" takes things out of context, i.e. Michael Moore strining together
quotes and facts to paint what may be a very different story from reality?
(Don't get hung up on the analogy :P )

To me, it's quite a leap to apply that verse to the previous one.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
Huh???? Please explain. Different context? Ill be the first to admit that I dont know every thing, but where did I take this out of context? This IS the same verse, Number 14:29. The only one I didnt look up is the one about being 20 or older to go to war.

Please explain??? I know Im simple and easy to confuse, :blink: sorry. <_<

Edited to add: Im going to have to look that up again to make sure I didnt accidently stick two together... Hang on...Numbers 14:29 reads as follows from the King James:

29 "Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me."

New American StandardNumbers 14:29 "your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me."


Ferrar Fenton Translation:
Numbers 14:29"...in this desert thier corpes shall fall with all their officers and rulers, from the age of twenty years and upwards,...."

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by Metaldoc+Oct 11 2004, 01:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Metaldoc @ Oct 11 2004, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-stooxie@Oct 11 2004, 07:31 AM


How can you just string completely independent versus together from totally different chapters?

-Stooxie
The Bible is God's instruction book for life. In any course of instruction previous references are given in order to clarify a topic or give a different perspective on it.

I am extending an invitation to you in particular, Stooxie, and also Swill, Swordslinger, and all the rest of you following this thread, regardless of your beliefs, to take a few moments to hit this link. It takes just a few short minutes and you will note there are many random selected verses all driving home the same very important thing.

http://www.bittybitznpieces.com/FathersLoveLetter~.htm

I feel the Spirit working here. I admire all of you for the gentlemanly way this discussion has progressed. There is nothing wrong with searching for answers and hungering to understand.

Metaldoc [/b][/quote]
Metaldoc,

Thank you. :D

[Swordslinger]

Well this has all got me thinking, I thought I read this somewhere, and here it is.

It is interesting to note that in the Ferrar Fenton translation of the Bible, the creation units were called “ages” rather than “days.”

This man did his translation work in the late 1800s, and published the "Holy Bible in Mordern English" in 1906. I have found it to be an enlightening translation, look and see for your self. It is online at:

www.ferrarfenton.com (http://www.ferrarfenton.com)

And futher study into the King James, the Hebrew word used for "day" in Genesis 1 is #3117( in Strong's and the very first word in the explanation of the definition is "age".

I see where old Ferrar got it now. :lol:

[Taquito971]

It's amazing what different translations do to the verses. I looked up the NIV version and got a different feeling. One that relates more to those who are counted in the census. The KJV leaves out the census part and merely references the above 20 part. Interesting.

Brian

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by Taquito971@Oct 11 2004, 05:29 PM
It's amazing what different translations do to the verses.
Your are very correct. Thats why if you really want to know for yourself, the study aids such as Strong's, Young's, and other lexicons are important.

It is interesting to note that if you use Strong's concordance, the deffinition of most translations are there, taken from the Hebrew. The one that really get in my craw are the "politicaly correct" versions, that delete the refernces to The Blood, call The Lord,"Father/Mother", or just plain "Mother". Deletes refference to sins that are now deemed "acceptable" by the mainstream. And countless other perversions.

In todays perverted society, the "leavening of the lump" has reached into the church house doors and right into the Bible itself. But we must remember:

Proverbs 25:2 " It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

But, we live in a LAZY, sound bite, sort of society. Not many people have the drive to do such studies.

In most translations, the salvation plan is there. Thats where the walk begins. Those who are apart from Christ, and do not have the Spirit leading them in thier studies will not get the truths that someone being lead by the Spirit will recieve.

[Metaldoc]

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Oct 11 2004, 12:44 PM


Proverbs 25:2 " It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

But, we live in a LAZY, sound bite, sort of society. Not many people have the drive to do such studies.

In most translations, the salvation plan is there. Thats where the walk begins. Those who are apart from Christ, and do not have the Spirit leading them in thier studies will not get the truths that someone being lead by the Spirit will recieve.
You pretty much summed up the whole thing right there.

Metaldoc

[tri70]

I found a site that has many different bible translations to use, you can reference by a keywords or a passage, I used "angels" on this page.bible gateway (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?SearchType=AND&language=english&searchpage=0&search=angels&version=NIV)

-tri

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 11 2004, 08:31 PM
I found a site that has many different bible translations to use, you can reference by a keywords or a passage, I used "angels" on this page.bible gateway (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?SearchType=AND&language=english&searchpage=0&search=angels&version=NIV)

-tri
Yeah, I found that one looking for NASV. Thanks!!!! Lots of good stuff, I wander if there is a Strong's Concordance online?

[swill269]

:o
metaldoc,
as you said and i have said in this post or another; the bible (and most all other religious text) is a book of "life". it was written loosly so as not to be convincing, but persuasive and encouraging. some have decided it is absolute, some use it as a guideline and others refuse it all together.

this love letter is exactly that. forgive the comparison if it is offensive, but the flower children/hippies followed this doctrine and they were persecuted too. they varied in degree of practice as in all religeions. ;)

swordslinger,
i think what stooxie is trying to say is; some of the passages are used out of context as originally written for the bible. for example: a big bossomed woman could have been described as her "cups runneth over". :eek:; i took the lesson from here and "pondered it in my heart forever".(luke 2:19) all are passages and all are used correctly (in context), but not in relation to the bible. so passages read from the bible and used in relation to another scripture of a nonrelate status is viewed as poetic justice or author's rights. stooxie and i don't appreciate christian extremists :lol: using scripture out of biblical context because it is confusing when debating. :confused: i don't know if you are being poetic or literal. i prefer poetic, it fits better all around. :beer:
:cool:

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 11 2004, 11:55 PM
:o
stooxie and i don't appreciate christian extremists :lol: using scripture out of biblical context because it is confusing when debating. :confused: i don't know if you are being poetic or literal. i prefer poetic, it fits better all around. :beer:
:cool:
Im still waiting for someone to show what I used out of context. Its is obvious that some of us WILL NOT agree with the other, under any circumstance. But, when someone makes an accusation of useing scripture out of context, you should be able to back it up. As I said, maybe Im wrong, Im willing to learn. :blink: Just show me where I made the mistake. Is that asking too much? :unsure:

As for me being a Christian extremist, I would like to correct you sir.....












Im a Right wing, Radical, Christian Extremist!!! :lol: Get it right will ya? :lol:

And thank you. Thats the nicest thing that has been said to me all day. :D :lol: :P


Just kidding, Im really quite moderate :rolleyes: <whistles and walks away>

[swill269]

:o
swordslinger,

yes sir, right sir!

here is where stooxie might be better than me. i do not have the random access knowledge of the scriptures.

like i said, they are not out of context literaly, they are applicable to the point being referrenced, but not actually used in the "holy" context as when it was applied in the bible. sort of a semantics thingy but not really. :( sort of a liberty one might take with the bible to make a point but use the "words" of a scripture which were originally written with a somewhat different meaning than you are applying to it. :blink:

any better, man?
:cool:

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 12 2004, 01:01 AM
:o
swordslinger,

yes sir, right sir!

here is where stooxie might be better than me. i do not have the random access knowledge of the scriptures.

like i said, they are not out of context literaly, they are applicable to the point being referrenced, but not actually used in the "holy" context as when it was applied in the bible. sort of a semantics thingy but not really. :( sort of a liberty one might take with the bible to make a point but use the "words" of a scripture which were originally written with a somewhat different meaning than you are applying to it. :blink:

any better, man?
:cool:
Swill, when I grow up a want to be a masterbater........oops... a master-d-bater just like you!!! :lol:

Just Kidding!!

[stooxie]

Originally posted by swill269@Oct 11 2004, 03:55 PM
i think what stooxie is trying to say is; some of the passages are used out of context as originally written for the bible.
Right, but to address Swordslinger's reply there is a strict qualification here.

No, I don't think SS (that's you, Swordslinger :lol: ) has used anything necessarily out
of context however in the hands of the layman I think it happens all the time. As we said
earlier it's fine to drop verse but you better know where else in the bible they may be
revisited.

What I do find strange the is patchwork strings that people weave to tell a whole story.
One verse followed by a verse from 5 books prior followed by one 6 books hence followed
by one 3 books earlier followed by one 7 books later.

That to me feels like cutting letters out of a magazine to make a ransom note.
It just seems that it is possible to say anything you want by picking out various
phrases out of tens of thousands.

-Stooxie

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by stooxie+Oct 12 2004, 01:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stooxie @ Oct 12 2004, 01:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-swill269@Oct 11 2004, 03:55 PM
i think what stooxie is trying to say is; some of the passages are used out of context as originally written for the bible.
Right, but to address Swordslinger's reply there is a strict qualification here.

No, I don't think SS (that's you, Swordslinger :lol: ) has used anything necessarily out
of context however in the hands of the layman I think it happens all the time. As we said
earlier it's fine to drop verse but you better know where else in the bible they may be
revisited.

What I do find strange the is patchwork strings that people weave to tell a whole story.
One verse followed by a verse from 5 books prior followed by one 6 books hence followed
by one 3 books earlier followed by one 7 books later.

That to me feels like cutting letters out of a magazine to make a ransom note.
It just seems that it is possible to say anything you want by picking out various
phrases out of tens of thousands.

-Stooxie [/b][/quote]
But with any book, Law, History ect... if you ask a question about a certain part of the history(for example), you cant possibly expect to understand without knowing the beinging of the story.

Did that make sense....? Oh well

That is where many, many denomanations cause frustration within the ranks and essentialy run good, strong, inteligent men away. The foundation upon which thier faith is based is found in Genesis. If you weaken that foundation by useing politicaly correct non-sense, rather than the cold, hard, sometimes unpaletable truth, what you get is what we have today.

An Old Preacher once told me that if you preach "sermon-ettes" what you will get is "Christian-etts" :lol:

I did not get the meaning of that at the time, but as I grow older, I can go into almost any church, anywhere and the seats are filled with women. Because the message that is being taught for the most part is "femenine" in nature. The truth is a rather "masculine" message.

[tri70]

I know I am guilty of taking passages out of context now and then, this new site I found will show all the places in the Bible that a word or phrase is used. I don't think Swordslinger was trying to decieve or take out of context, many books in the Bible will have very similar topics and phrases and can be confusing. I looked up silver the other day on this site and found some of good sayings in Proverbs.
Proverbs and silver (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=silver&SearchType=ONE_WORD&SearchWholeWords=&language=english&version=NIV&searchpage=8&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&SearchAsLink=) Proverbs is one of the books of knowledge.

-tri :usa:

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 12 2004, 02:19 AM
I know I am guilty of taking passages out of context now and then, this new site I found will show all the places in the Bible that a word or phrase is used. I don't think Swordslinger was trying to decieve or take out of context, many books in the Bible will have very similar topics and phrases and can be confusing. I looked up silver the other day on this site and found some of good sayings in Proverbs.
Proverbs and silver (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=silver&SearchType=ONE_WORD&SearchWholeWords=&language=english&version=NIV&searchpage=8&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&SearchAsLink=) Proverbs is one of the books of knowledge.

-tri :usa:
ahhhh...Silver... Real Money!! That is an interesting subject in and of its self.

No, I certainly was not trying to decieve, and I believe my point about the age of accountability is valid. I was just shareing what I believe the Spirit has given to me.

I never saw the point in child/infant baptism, simply due to the child/infant not being able to understand: belief, Confession of Christ as Lord, Repentance (simply put a change of heart), and the "why" of imersion in water.

[tri70]

The baptism is water is a symbolic act that John the Baptist did to show that you have a change of heart "born again" if you will. baptism (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on). Even Jesus was baptized by John and he was God!!

-tri :usa:

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 12 2004, 12:21 PM
The baptism is water is a symbolic act that John the Baptist did to show that you have a change of heart "born again" if you will. baptism (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on). Even Jesus was baptized by John and he was God!!

-tri :usa:
Ahh... Buts thats another thread. But entertain yourself with this thought. Many Churches teach that "believe" only. But what does the Bible say about it? Yes, Ive heard all of the wrangleing, and read many, many writings by men trying to make difficult the simple. The simple, most impotant recepie that is found in my sig line.


Flame on "bretheren" But I really do think thats for another thread.

[tri70]

It is interesting that the old testament talks about being saved thru "faith". And new testament is both, Jesus never baptized anyone but would heal their afflictions and change their hearts. Alot of "be healed and sin no more" which is an act of faith.

more to think about, -tri

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by tri70@Oct 12 2004, 06:29 PM
It is interesting that the old testament talks about being saved thru "faith".* And new testament is both, Jesus never baptized anyone but would heal their afflictions and change their hearts.* Alot of "be healed and sin no more" which is an act of faith.

more to think about, -tri
All required. See the recipe. The "faith" only doctrine does away with the other requirements. <_< If you believe that you have to negate the scriptures that teach that it is required. Examples:
Matthew 7:22 " Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
They believed, they called Him Lord. The Word said, even Satan believes.
They were even able to cast out demons, and perform miracles. That takes faith, does it not?

But, there was something missing.

The Word teaches that we should obey ALL of the requirements.

John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

There are many scriptures to back up the above. But since Baptism is in question, I list more of these to get the whole point.

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Its impotant to note that the "for remission of sins" is the exact same greek phrase used in Matthew 26:28 by The Master.)

Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Mark 16:16" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

1st Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."


John 3:23" And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized." ( Not much water needed for sprinkling/pouring)

Strong’s Deffinition from the greek is as follows:

907" baptizo bap-tid'-zo from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash. "

This is one of another out of the mainstream teachings that needs to be discussed among believers, but please, please, brother start another thread on this subject. ;)

PUUURTTY PLEEEEEASE? :lol:


Edited to add: If you dont read these for yourself, or if you rely on some preacher to tell you what to think about this subject, please do not respond. If you do read them, and still do not agree, then flame away. :D This is in no way an attack on my Bretheren that beieve as such, just a plea from a fellow Christian to be like the "Bereans"
Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

[Havok]

SwordSlinger- You are my man.

Everyone else- Why is it so hard? This is your life, so is it easier to go the easier path, and perhaps pay for it later? I choose to do everything I can to make God happy with me and my life, that way, if its too much, Oh Well! i already earned my A+........


Think of it as extra credit.

-= Brent =-

P.S. swordslinger, this wasn't to ignore your quotes, only to simplify them for those who may argue the Word, I attempt to appeal to them with logic.

[Swordslinger]

Originally posted by Havok@Oct 13 2004, 02:40 PM
SwordSlinger- You are my man.

Everyone else- Why is it so hard? This is your life, so is it easier to go the easier path, and perhaps pay for it later? I choose to do everything I can to make God happy with me and my life, that way, if its too much, Oh Well! i already earned my A+........


Think of it as extra credit.

-= Brent =-

P.S. swordslinger, this wasn't to ignore your quotes, only to simplify them for those who may argue the Word, I attempt to appeal to them with logic.
Thank You!! :D

As far as the repentance part goes, I have to do that daily. :(

Cause Im a bad, bad, man.

[Metaldoc]

Originally posted by Swordslinger@Oct 13 2004, 10:30 AM


As far as the repentance part goes, I have to do that daily. :(

Cause Im a bad, bad, man.
Aren't we all. Thanks be to God for His Mercy and Grace.

Keep up the good fight Swordslinger.... you are an inspiration to many of us.

Metaldoc

[Swordslinger]

This pretty much sums me up.

I am in no way equating myself to Apostle Paul, who was a much, much better man than myself. Apparantly, he stuggled with the same things as recorded in Romans chapter 7, for a good study read chapter 8 on your own.


19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. "

As I said above, for the "Rest of the story" see chapter 8.

Singed: The Swordslinging Sinner.

[Swordslinger]

This was given to me by a Friend, a brother in Christ tonite, and since we are off topic, but on the right topic, I thought I would share it with my brethren, here goes:


That's something we will always struggle with. I like this analogy my pastor uses sometimes: (So that you will know Swordslinger did NOT come up with this illustration)

"A man is walking down a muddy road. As he walks along in the dark, he stumbles, falls, and becomes covered with mud. Standing up, he starts walking toward a street lamp cleaning himself off as he goes. However, because he is walking towards the street lamp, he begins to see how dirty he really is. No matter how hard he tries to clean himself off, the closer he gets to the light, the more dirt he sees."

The man would be us in our journey as Christians, The dirt would be our sin, and the lamp would be Christ. I though it was a great analogy of how we see more and more of our shortcomings as we become closer to Christ. "

God bless!

John


Thats a gem, a light that needs to be above the basket.

Thanks John.
I have rule, the first time I use someones illustration, I give them credit. After that, I keep my mouth shut so people will think I have the noodle to come up with such. :D

[kravman4]

Lol, the credit doesn't belong to me...I got that one from my pastor. :D