mini-14 accuracy problem

[firedog03]

I took out my stainless mini saturday, and i fired 5 rounds from it. all 5 rounds were about 3 inches high at aprx. 35 yards, i have never had this happen. After i went and looked at the board, i couldnt beleive it. so i went back and loaded 5 more rounds, they everyone hit inside the 1"x1" square i had drawn on the board. I have never had this happen, what could be the reason behind it? I always thought a cold barrel would be more accurate, at least from all my experiences, especially with the mini's. I got to thinking today, there is a possibility i didnt clean it after my last time of shooting it, which is very rare for me to NOT clean after shooting it. could it have had some kind of buildup or something that after it got heated up and cleaned out, it helped?? I dont know, but it puzzled me...any thoughts? I was using wolf 55gr HP, (i think thats what it was, i know it was wolf HPs, but the gr's is what im not sure about)

[rutro]

Hey firedog03 sounds like you've got it zeroed to a warm barrel.

[tri70]

My mini will hit high after a cleaning and using a bore conditioner, then settles down after 5 shots.

-tri

[cajungeo]

I sometimes get careless, but I keep a range log. I can look back and trouble shoot shooting problems. With Iron sights I shoot at 6:00 to the bull, with a scope cross hairs are dead on.

3" @ 35 yds translates to 8-9" high at 100 yds. I would try again only make sure if it was cleaned or not cold barrel or not, same ammo same POA on target etc. My mini groups better after first 5 rnds. For hunting a hunter has to know where his first shot will hit. It may be all he gets.

BTW I'm moving this topic to the Accruacy section for a better fit.

[scruffy]

That is odd. Alot of rifles with oil in the bore will shoot high for a couple to few rounds, but not usually a dirty barrel. Many barrels have a cold POI (point of impact) and warm/hot POI, but usually the cold POI is lower, not higher. Like the others said it's time for another trip to the range and see if your cold POI and warm POI are the same. If it's different, one thing I'd do is follow Cajun's directions in the sticky note on how to regap the gas block. If the stock is torquing on the gas block inturn torquing on the barrel your cold and warm POI's are going to shift. Following his directions make regapping the gas block, making sure it's not twisting on the stock when you retighten it, a very easy process.

Also, was this with a scope or peep sight? If it was a scope some of it could be because of parralax. Rifle scopes without an AO (adjustible objective lens) are usually set with a paralax of 100 yards, meaning when you pull your cheek off the stock and move your eye around a bit the cross airs stay on a target 100 yards away. With closer or farther targets moving your eye results in the cross airs wonding around the target.

That said, most scope won't wonder 3" in any one direction, so that's probably not your problem, but I mention it because parallax can create or enhance "problems" in your grouping or sighting in that we blame on the gun when it's actually our shooting form that's at fault. I've had it happen to me, and friends, where we'll be shooting at 50 yards and get somewhat large groups. We'd fight the rifle for awhile only to find that when we moved the target to 100 yards we'd get the same or smaller groups, which shouldn't be the case. Mathmatics says that your 100 yard group should be double your 50 yard group. So why were our 50 yard groups large? Parallax and our shooting form. It was usually because we didn't have the scope mounted correctly and weren't getting the proper and very important consistant "cheek weld". Moving the scope forward or back and often times adding a cheek pad or lower rings fixed the problem.

It's kind of like archery, you want to pull that string back the same time every time and have your face touch the string in the same place everytime for consistant sighting. With my bow I've been practicing grabbing the bow the exact same way every time and pulling back and placing my index finger tip in the corner of my mouth the same way every time. Many people install a "kisser" on the string that when you pull the string back touches the corner of your mouth (I'm going to get one). Every time you pull the string back you know you have a consistant draw from one to the next. Shooting a rifle is the same, you need a consistantly good form to shoot good consistantly.

I've even played with the idea of making some kind of "kisser" to put on my rifle stocks. Stick it on the stock so everytime I put my face against the stock it fits in the corner of my mouth so I know I'm consistently shouldering the rifle and looking at the same spot through the scope every time. The more consistant your form, the more consistant the shots.

Anyway, got a little off subject there. But I'd recommend testing your rifle where the parallax is set (100 yards). Like cajun said 3" at 35 yards is 9" at 100 yards, so you should be able to see the difference very easy, assuming there's something with the rifle that is causing the shift. If there is no shift at 100 yards I'd suspect shooting form/parallax, scope mounting, etc. You may need a cheek pad, move the scope forward or back, or make a "kisser" for the stock.

The good news, the only way to solve this mystery is to :ar15: !!!

Later,
scruffy

[tri70]

That "kisser" idea sounds like a good one, scruffy. I think I'll try to rig one also, I go a compound bow last year from a pawn shop for $50 it came with a hard case and 14 arrows, quiver and release. The whole package was marked down from $200, I got a block of styrafoam to practice with.

-tri

[magnomark]

:huh: Hi firedog;Ive beenreading everyones posts and have to agree with most of the variables that they have posted need to be checked,now here is one more that I have personally experienced.....When you were shooting at your targets did you have the foreend of the stock supported at the end near the gas block-or near the reciever in front of the magazine? And could you have possibly changed support areas on the stock between shot strings 1&2?I have run into problems with a choate synthetic stock being flexible enough to allow for changing the harmonics of the barrel and raising the POI by supporting the stock out near the gas block.And one more point of interest to make note of:DO NOT support the barrel in front of the gas block(on the barrel) when firing from a rest,as this will change the POI when shooting under any other condition-because it changes the barrel harmonics due to pressure from the bottom,etc and the dampening effect(not allowing the barrel to"whip" and vibrate freely).BTW- the same holds true for those "clothes pin" type bi-pods,they change the POI if attached to the barrel!
<_< :sniper:

[rutro]

Well firedog03 have we got ya confused yet? That just about covers everything that could possibly have caused what you experanced at the range. Scruffy you realy should put you a kisser on the mini. That's exactly why I build my own cheek rests for my BC Folders. Once I determine the height and legnth I build it and once it's ready to install I spend some time just doing cheek-ups until when I shoulder it I'm in that perfect spot, then with the free hand I put a finger right at the place the corner of my mouth contacts the stock, that is the front of my cheek peice. Once it's set up then it's just normal and goes right to that spot every time. It helped me a lot. Especialy since I used to be left eye dominant, had to change that when I got the Ranch Rifle since I got tired of breathing that old bad gas every once and a while.

[kkina]

Originally posted by scruffy@Aug 26 2004, 06:47 AM
Many barrels have a cold POI (point of impact) and warm/hot POI, but usually the cold POI is lower, not higher.
The cold POI on my Mini is definitely higher. Of course, this is with a barrel strut attached, not sure if that makes a difference or not.

[guncats]

maybe the barrel gets hot and extends, but the strut remain the same so the top part ( barrel) push forward and bend the muzzle down? that might explain why the hot shots are lower.

[kkina]

Hmm, that's quite possible. I do notice that the effect of barrel temperature on POI was much more pronounced without the strut, which seemed to change in rather direct proportion to the degree of barrel heating. With the strut I ususally get 2 cold bbl shots, then everything settles down. With extreme rapid fire the POI will once again begin to shift, but grudgingly so, and returns quickly to initial POA. I think the strut just keeps the barrel more stabilized.