1873 Winchester

[bonsai]

HI- I purchased an 1873 Winchester, 38-40. Lucky me the bore was in killer shape, rifle is in 90%, made in 1885. It is somewhat strange though, the thumb guards, trigger, hammer. barrel/magazine holder, fore end grip cap, are all brass colored. Looks like plating, but done well! The barrel is stamped with "Kings Improvement-patiented March 29, 1866,October 26, 1860". (?) Does anyone know what this means?? I was told they were the people that did the upgrade to the rifle????

It also came with a bullet mold, Winchester, 38 cal, says, "pat. Oct.20,1874, Nov 7. 82" Does anyone know of a value on this?????

THANKS FOLKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[swill269]

:o
whatever you paid for it, is it's current value. when someone wants it more than you, it will go up. in the meantime use it and enjoy. it sounds great. ;)
:cool:

[magnomark]

:o I don't know about the"Kings improvement",but that gun is far to valuable to shoot.Just oil it and the molds up good and sit and look at it :lol: ,or find a collector that will pay handsomely for it! <_< :sniper:

[bonsai]

Thanks for the help so far, still hunting for the "Kings Improvement" on the barrel. A buddy stopped by and thought it was a company that did some work for Winchester. uhmm????????????????

Value is as you stated it, whatever one wants to pay. I was looking for a value on the bullet mold.

Can't help but to shoot the 1873, after one heart attack, they all get used now!!!

THANKS for the help!!!!!!!!!

[swill269]

:o
from the blue book of gun values:

1873, 32/20, 38/40, 44/40 iron frame (went steel in '84) the rifles have forarm caps and the carbine had forearm bands. serial # is on lower tang and 720,610 were manufatured 1873-1919. serial #'s after 525,923 are modern firearms. deluxe models, w/casehardened frames will ad 50% to following prices as of printing. (1997)
1873 first model "rifle" #'s 1 - 30,000 aprox. w/sliding thumbprint dust cover on two guides that are integral part of the upper frame, absence of any cal. marking.

*rifle24"bl*****************carbine20"bl*********musket30"bl*
rnd/octg bl************rnd bl w/crv but/sad rg***rnd bl w/27"mag & 3 bl bnds

1200-1700....above average......1400-2000....................1600-2050
800-1200..........average............900-1400.....................1150-1600
400-800........below average.......500-900.......................750-1150
98%= 4350...............................4750........... .................4250
95%= 3550...............................4250........... .................3500
90%= 3050...............................3900........... .................3050
80%= 2475...............................3650........... .................2675
70%= 1975...............................3275........... .................2300
60%= 1750...............................2800........... .................2050

these are the premies, (except for 1 of 100 and 1 of 1000) what do you have? :rolleyes:
:cool:

[surbat6]

The "King's improvement" was a re-design of the old Henry slotted magazine tube which incorporated a loading gate on the right side of the receiver. The Model 1866 was the first Winchester to include this feature, designed by Nelson King.

[bonsai]

I have a 24" barrel, octagon, full length magazine. Sliding cover on rail machined in receiver (3rd model?). Hammer,trigger foreend cap, other pieces brass plated (looks like). Serial number 200793B (last number? letter? hard to read "8" or "B" ??)

I tried to post a pic here, could'nt do it. Anything special I'm missing????

[bonsai]

Surbat6- Was the "Kings Improvement" done by Winchester or an outside firm?? Would this affect the value any???? THANKS

[Old Judge Creek]

Nelson King was Winchester Mgfs chief engineer. It was he who developed the side loading gate and secure the Patent on same. Winchester marketed the rifle as "King's Improvement". Your rifle was made by Winchester and the "Improvement" was "factory".

The color of the metal is the bronze (IIRC) alloy marketed during that time as "Gunmetal". It's what gave the color to the highly prized (by the indians) Yellowboy.

This information is available in almost any Winchester reference book.

That old rifle was made to be shot not looked at. Shoot it !!! The CAS folks use them all the time with the following caveat: The '76 action is a toggle-link action, same as was on the 1860 Henry. It is inherently a weak action, so I wouldn't push the pressures if you are going to shoot it - that means: I would NOT experiment with any smokeless powders. To load the round simply fill the case with FFg Black Powder and set a bullet such that there is NO air space in the case. And DO NOT take my word for this: look it up for yourself to verify that it's true - a wise person will always double check EVERY load.

[bonsai]

Old Judge Creek:

I'm shooting factory loads from Winchester in it now, but that's not BLK powder. Should I limit it to only BLK powder loads???

I was wanting to load some using the factory bullet mold that came with the rifle. I don't know anything about the bullet weight til one pops out! I'll get my hands on loading info before preceeding. Any suggestions would be helpful as the rifle will be used but with care.

I was wanting to lube (Rig) the toggle, which is the easiest side plate to remove?

THANKS for your and everyone's help!

[Old Judge Creek]

The pressure curve on black powder is a sharp, almost straight up and down, spike. This means the pressure max is very close to being contained within the chamber -but not quite. Thus guns made for BP are strongest around the chamber and they could use "relatively"weaker barrels (like the damascus or twisted wire barrels on old BP shotguns). FWIW: BP pressures are also much less than smokeless powder. The pressure curve on smokeless is much more of a parabola. The pressure builds and reaches max partway down the barrel.

I'm 61 years old and have been playing with this stuff for alot of years and I'm convinced that shooting ANY modern loads or smokeless powders - and I do mean ANY - is courting disaster. It's simply a matter of time until you have a blow-up.

For your own safety and for those nearby, PLEASE use only black powder loads. It's all too easy: fill the case with BP and set a lead bullet on top. You can put a wad under the bullet if you desire - just do not leave any air space.

One of the best references available is Mike Venturino's book Shooting Lever Rifles of the Old West.

Regardless, no matter what, PLEASE do not shoot smokeless powder loads in this rifle.

[swill269]

:o
bonsai,
according to the "blue book of gun values" (1997):

3rd model rifle...abv av$500-750...av400-500...blw av300-400... + 50% for case hardened frame.

98%= $3350
95%= $3075
90%= $2400
80%= $1700
70%= $1425
60%= $1250


Gun Digest, "modern gun values" (2003)

this includes 1 of 100 & 1 of 1000 models and case hardened frames across the board average market prices. Gun Digest recommends appraisals before purchases. :eek:

excel:......$4000-$11,000
Vgood:.....$2500-$6000
good:.......$900-$4000

[Old Judge Creek]

Bonsai,
IIRC, the port-side plate was the easiest to get off. Regardless, either plate should come off fairly easy and I doubt stuff's gonna fall out into your hands.

Just go slow, make certain your screwrivers fit the screw heads and don't force anything.

Remember this metal is OLD and tired. And when it was fresh out of the foundry, it wasn't a strong as what we take for granted today.

Keep us posted, will you?

[bonsai]

Thanks for the advice. I've been loading for over a decade and had my share of mistakes (I still have my face!). Think I'll stick with the blk powder.

Have any advice on using the Winchester reloading tool?? (thought it was a bullet mold in my excitment!) Thought I'd try some loading that way also, blk powder ofcourse! Never used one though.

THANKS again for those who posted, it HELPED alot! Marc