Alaskan Bear gun

[Ray P]

I have family travelling up to some dunes in Alaska this summer, and they asked my recommendation for an anti-bear gun for use in serious close encounters with Alaskan Brown Bear (Grizzly). This is a sightseeing trip, not a hunt.

I guess I would advise either a ported Marlin 1895 guide gun in 45-70, or a Remington 870 Express slug gun in 12 g 3" Magnum. I don't think either a 357M or 44M pistol is all that much better than bells and pepper spray, but I wanted to check in here to see if you think I've overlooked alternatives.

[appalacian trapper]

I'd say it depends on what they are going to be doing.

The 357 & 44 are both commonly used up here for bear protection. I carry a 44 simply because it is right there on my hip and easier to keep up with. It leaves your hands free to do other things.

No doubt if I knew I was going to face to face with a griz, I'd prefer to have my 45/70 or 375H&H but it's just too much trouble to lug a rifle around. For someone who isn't use to shooting a big pistol the rifle might be safer, considering accuracy.

[vjager]

Hello,

I am also planning a trip to Alaska/Canada this summer and want to take bear protection with me. I know I can't carry a handgun into Canada, so I'm looking at either a Marlin 45/70 or my friend now says the Marlin 450 would be better. I'm I getting any real additional protection with a 450 that I couldn't get with a hot loaded 45/70 with a hard cored bullet? Or would I even have to hot load the 45/70?

Thanks!

[swill269]

:o
45-70 all the way.

the marlin is a heavy weapon and in 45/70 is even heavier. however for a sure advantage you have multiple rnds, great aim and control to 50yds easy, nowhere near the recoil of a 3"er and a shorter weapon to move around with.

buy it in stainless and if you don't like it after the trip i will buy it from you. promise.
:cool:

[Ray P]

I too looked at the 450 & the 444 Marlin. All in all, the ported 45-70 guidegun is MUCH more available on the used market (at least in my area) than the other two.
And I already know the 45-70 in a ported barrel is controllable for me based on my T/C Contender. No, I wasn't giving the single shot any consideration for an Alaskan trip as a defensive firearm.

You guys are definitely reinforcing my thoughts on recommending the 445-70, and I appreciate the comments on the 3"ption; that is stiff recoil.

[gossman]

I have done some river floats and un-guided flyin's in Alaska. When I am lucky and can find someone who is willing to rough it for a couple of weeks it is the best way to fish. It is also a great way to see bears, sometimes at an uncomfortable close distance. An old sourdough told me if I was planning on taking a handgun to make sure that the sight was filed off so that it would hurt when the doctor pull it out of my a##. The best firearm for a non-hunting Alaska trip in my opinion is a short barreled shotgun, 12 gauge. Load the first round as a slug and then the balance as 00 buck. If you are charged, there will be no third shot. They are fast but every brown bear I have seen in the wild in Alaska has went the other way, maybe because I hadn't a bath in a while? :blink:

[swill269]

:o
45/70 loaded with barnes solid copper 300 gr spitzer will take out anything in north america. if you can muscle a 500 gr bullet it will serve better.
good luck!
:cool:

[magnomark]

:huh: I hunted SE Alaska fotr brownies on admiralty island back in the 80s,at that time I carried a 338 winmag loaded heavy(275gr speer hot cores)and at that time believed that NOTHING in north America could withstand that kind of round.AFTER hunting in alders in the creek bottoms were normal visibility was about 20ft and a long shot was 75 yards I decided my next trip to alaska would be with a 45 cal something(likely a 458 winmag) or a 12 ga riot gun(like alot of the guides carried for backup guns at that time),in recent years I purchased a 45-70 1895 marlin rifle-with the full length barrel and am amazed by the knock down power even with the 405 gr factory bullets that are reduced power for trap door springfields.I have talked with several gunsmiths and they confirm the fact that these new marlin 1895s in 45-70 and 450 are the same action and the 45-70 can be loaded quite heavy if need be-downside,get ready for some RECOIL!I would not hesitate to use a new 1895 in either of these calibers for brown/grizzle bars in Alaska.Just remember that whatever you shoot at a bear functions 110% because bears take it quite personal when you shoot them and want to retaliate against the source/cause of their pain.Don't take the shot unless you can make sure of the kill! :eek: :sniper:

Oh yea-Ray P......................Navy CBs 74-79 CE2

[Ray P]

Thanks all for your great input. Dad's a retired zoologist; so he knows though experience you can't trust bears to do the planned thing when you 'play dead'

With his limited firearm experience though, a handgun, even a 44M, is out. I'm starting to think the 12g is the way for him to go. Now if it were me, I'd want that 1895 guidegun, but I know & like the 45-70 anyway.

Thanks again!

Magnomark: "Semper Gumby!"

[gossman]

A 870 with a 18" slug barrel w/ sights is light, easy to manuver, and easy to pack! Good Luck!! :usa:

Semper Fi 1st Cmbt Eng Battalion Alpha Co.

[Second Wind]

I hate to rain on your parade here fellas, but the most commonly used go to gun used by natives and Inuits in Northern Canada and were talking Polar Bears here is the old Lee Enfield in 303. This is the standard caliber of people who actually face dangerous bear situations in Northern Canada. The 303 has served the British Commonwealth for almost a century in defending their regions and in many wars. Ask an Inuit or Native Canadian what they would rather carry and 303 will always be the answer.

My .02

S/W

[Ray P]

SW:

I am a long-time fan of the .303. I took my first W.T. deer with a sporterized Mk 4. The .303 holds much the same place in Canada that the 30-06 does in the States, and for much the same reason: surplus military rifles were often the most affordable & effective thing available.

I certainly respect the choice of a .303 when made by a skilled hunter, experienced in the use of a bolt rifle, actively pursuing Alaskan bear.

However, I was looking for a weapon to be used, if at all, at close range, as a last resort, by someone inexperienced with firearms.

[Second Wind]

Good point Ray ;)

S/W

[vjager]

Thanks for all the great info.

I decided to go with the Marlin 1895GS, it now only comes in the non-ported barrel type, and I'm having David Clements of Clements Custom Gun Service add a stainless barrel extention for a 6 rd magazine capacity. I would hate to think that I would become a tasty morsel for a Grizz just for lack of not having one or two more rounds available.

I took it out and tried it out at 50 yds with a 300 and 405 grain bullet. I was sore for almost a week. It does have a little action to it.

Thanks again for all the advice.

[sitkablacktail]

I live in Alaska and I carry the 45/70 in a Marlin 1895SS, my hand load is a 350g Interlok with 59 Grains of Varget, I would'nt bother with a tube extion chances are your only going to get one shot. Biggest thing with a lever action is to make sure all your bullets cycle threw the action. I never used Buffalo Bores but I have friends that did and they had problems with cycling, that is just hear say so take it for what it's worth. Bears can be a problem but chances are you won't have any trouble with them just use your head and rember the law of gross tonnage, they are bigger than you and if they want the right of way give it to them. Give them the space they need, we have lots of brown bears around here were I live and never had any problems with them. Just keep your food and cooking away from were you are sleeping and just because a bear is licking your plates in the morning does not give you the right to shoot them, that is the law. You must be in mortal danger or they are trashing your property.

[Mattitude]

I have the Marlin 1895M in 450 Marlin. The gun is nice and short but the recoil is STOUT!! The factory Hornady 350gr. SP ammo is very accurate, but I would recommend a good solid bullet for bears. If anything that I can offer advise-wise is that you practice (with snap-caps) cycling the action as fast as you can. The 45-70 and 450 Marlin actions are loooooong and you don't want to short-stroke the lever in a panic.

[iluv308]

First a bit of background. I own and operate a 300 square mile registered trapline on the Northern B.C./Yukon Border. Big bears are common place and all that I have met there are NOT as scared of me as I am of them (as the old story goes).
I have a military background and have spent 15 years in Law Enforcement. I have also spent time travelling and teaching bear encounter/defense courses with a company called North American Wilderness Training. The company has researched numerous bear situations and my choice for defence is a blend of knowledge, experience and the advice of many oldtimers through the years.

First the DO NOTS:

NO BUCKSHOT, outa shotguns NONE EVER PERIOD....this has proven to be a poor bear stopper many times....maybe with whimpy 200 lb black bear but big bear FORGET IT !!!!

NO 45-70 Factory loads, (the typical remington, winchester and federal 300 and 405 grain 'deer loads') again 200 lb black bear is one thing enraged Grizzly is something else.

And the DOs

GOOD BULLETS:
Good strong well constructed, a bullet that does well on a deer at 200 yards is not always a good bullet on a 500 plus pound enraged monster at 15 yards. I think the new 'bonded' bullets are good. The failsafes seem to shed pedals at close range and act like FMJs.

Good strong loads for the 45-70 guide gun

Good slugs in shotguns not the usual 'foster type'

Have sights on shotguns and rifles....if you are after bear defense only forget about scopes and fancy electronic sights....good irons...peep or open, both have advantages.

Use whatever gives you rapid RELIABLE followup shots. Levers and pumps for most people.....bolts are okay but see my next point..

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.....not from a bench or prone....get up on your hind legs and shoot at oncoming bear targets, even draw your own....research their physical makeup, study and decide where the best place to put your shot is. When you face a charging bear you are going to WAR. You better have the training and tools to go to war, know your enemy, know your weapon, know your abilities people. You need to practice to ensure confidence if and when the time come. Without confidence you will not act boldly and in a life or death encounter you better be prepared on ever level.

The comment on the 303 is I good one. I often carry one for rough use while trail cutting etc. They are cheap here in Canada. A hundred US$ will get you a good one. They can be affected by ice build up on the 'cocking piece' and will often fail to discharge as a result. The #4s have good usable sights also.

I use a Stainless 45-70 Guide gun with handloads, a custom 350 remington 600 and an 870 Remington with rifle sights....A word on shotguns...the most failures on the courses are from the winchester 1200 and 1300 series (Defender) and even the Mossberg 590s have had problems...I stick with Remingtons only now.

If you are travelling in northwest B.C. stop at the Smithers airport just west of Smithers and have a look at the stuffed bear on display....that is your enemy, and he is armed, to the teeth.
Perhaps I take this topic more serious than most but those who have been there will understand...PLEASE don't take this issue less seriously that than you need to. It may only happen to you once and for most never at all....BUT its your BUTT....

[Ivanimal]

I am planning a trip to Alaska in 2005 Iplan on packing my browning gold hunter in 3-1/2 with breineke slugs and my super redhawk in 44 magnum I would be very pleased if these items were dead weight during our fishing trip.

[cma g21]

iluv308,
Do you think a Puma .454 using Buffalo Bore 325 or 360 grain hard cast bullets would be enough gun?

[Bullmoose]

I don't have the load data in front of me but I was getting 2250+fps using a gas check 350 gr bullet out of my 22" bbl Marlin. It is a bench cleaner,ie, it knocked me and everthing else off the bench and the hat off my head. I would think that you don't get too much extra stopping power from that max load and you would best load it back to 2000 or so and maybe have a chance for a follow up shot quick enough to do some good if needed. It was rather accurate too as I remember, but that might be that the last 4-5 years since I shot it has colored my memory some. Of course accuracy is relative and at 20' any gun should do it if you can. I know every load that I used 305-350-405 was capable of keeping the 16" 280 yd dinger ringing like a bell.
Jim

PS: I just remembered: there was a female guide in Alaska that was sold on the 444 Marlin when it first came out. After almost losing herself and a client to a bear she switched to one of the big belted magnums. The 444 gets about 2200fps with the Speer 265. That is not really too far behind the 45/70?? maybe that is why some are going to 416-458s. Who used to say 'carry enough gun?'
Good luck, give the bears the right away and you hopefully you won't need any gun.

[Thebear_78]

I use a Marling 1895GS with ghost rings and a leupold scout scope for bear/moose hunting and backup for bear hunting. I've been using a load of 405gr Rem bulk bullet with 52gr of H322 in starline brass. I haven't chronographed the load yet but its extremely accurate and I'm guessing it at 1700-1800fps, thats plenty for the reming 405gr bullet. If I was after Really big bears I might step up to a stronger bullet like a kodiak 405gr mag or 420gr Heavy cast bullet in the 1800-1900fps range. Probably just stick with the 405gr kodiaks, they hit to almost the same point as the 405 remingtons. Those marlins are great guns for close work on big game.

I also regularly carry a S&W 629 4" 44 mag with 310gr cast loads. I carry it in a chest holster and its always with me, above the waiders, out of the way of the packstraps, and a lot better than a can of bear spray. I do a lot of practicing with my guns for fast draw and rapid shot at 25 and 15 yards. I have been planning on getting a buddy with a remote control car to come out shooting with me, put a ballon on the antena of the car and have him race it at you from 25 yards out, try to shoot the balloon.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid143/p7b1ef6cd32d3afc25d0ec9db6f4796b3/f68e8a7c.jpg