swill's curios/relic

[swill269]

:eek:
i love this gun. :blink: it is a #4 mk1 enfield with a 21" navy arms 45-70 barrel. it is advertised to carry three rnds in the mag, but it will hold & feed five rnds perfectly. :eek: the rifle was constructed by gibbs rifle co. and retailed for $384. i added the leupold vx II 1-4x20 and an extra recoil pad. :lol: by reaming the barrel to 45-90 i can make it a "45-70 magnum" and shoot both. :cannon: the magazine will hold a 45-90 case with 500 gr bullet seated to a COL of 3" - 3.05". see article @ www.chuckhawks.com/gibbs_summit.htm. this thing will knock out anything on four legs in north america :eek:
:cool: :usa: :beer:

[Pdaddy]

Nice Swill ;)
Maaan are you moving that HArris bipod around on all youre guns :D :D :D

Marcus

[swill269]

:lol:
yes, that is what is so nice about it, one size fits all. :blink:
:cool: :usa: :beer:

[Swede]

That is one sweet rifle. B) Does it kick much shooting .45-90?

[swill269]

:o
i have not tried the 45/90 load, but the pmc 350 gr flat nose goes about 2025 fps and i did not get the recoil effect i thought i would. :eek: i have another 45/70 which kills my shoulder after 3 rnds. :cannon: it seems about like my rem 700 30/06 with 180 gr bullet. :cool: :usa: :beer:

[Sniper]

magazine will hold a 45-90 case with 500 gr bullet seated to a COL of 3" - 3.05"

What is "COL"? <_< Good lookin' rifle!! :beer: :beer:

:sniper:

[mbott]

COL = Cartridge Overall Length

--
Mike

[Sniper]

Ok. I've always heard it OAL. Same thing.

[Zydeco76]

I would'nt wanna be a critters in swill's swamp.

[swill269]

:o
sniper,

i thought COL meant collective overall length :lol: i wrote it word for word from the article.

this rifle has been one major pain in the butt. mostly due to gibb's poor smithing. the receiver was not cut to accept the extended travel of the extractor over the big ole rim on the 45-70 case. the extractor was also too big to chamber a round even after cutting the reciever for it. when i tried to close the bolt, the extractor over sprung it's spring and collapsed it. once the spring collapsed it fell out and was lost in the swamp forever. gibbs says they test fire every weapon (not). they did offer to fix it under warranty but hunting season was starting in two weeks (they did not have spare parts either). <_< i rush ordered two springs and a spare extractor from MARSTAR CANADA (very nice people w/good SMLE parts inventory). i used my "dremel" to relieve the reciever to accept the extractor travel and resize my extractor. i added a tiny spot of j b chem weld to hold the extractor spring tight in the bolt.

the machining on the upper part of the reciever where a scope mount must be installed was so out of square, it left the scope about 1/8" to the right of center line down the barrel, with a view approx. 10 degrees off center to the left and 15 degrees high. i used some jeweler's files and a small piece of .008 feeler gauge to shim it up square. when you look through a 1X scope lens you can see over half of the barrel (not hard to tell if it is aligned w/barrel).

i bought 3 boxes of PMC "silver line" ammo @ $19+ ea. and 52 of the 60 rnds had been crushed slightly during seating and crimping, making them hard to chamber by hand and almost impossible from the magazine. once fire formed the cases were a little easier to extract. all of my hand loads chambered perfectly.

i bought this weapon off of the net and had never held an enfield, much less owned or shot one. it is comfortable, not too heavy (sporterized carbine, 41"), nice short bolt lockup, VERY accurate with every load i tried. however i HATE the way the the hammer is charged by pushing VERY hard on the bolt to actually cock it while chambering a round. rem. 700 is more my style (effortless).

the barrel is from NAVY ARMS and is far superior to the enfield reciever's fit, finish and metallurgy. :( the reciver looks like pot metal but when you tool it you see it is only external pitting and not porous all the way through. "brits" don't do steel worth a $#*$^%$&^%*(TITANIC).

if i had it all to do over again? :confused: YES!, i would. for $385 it is a great deal and far less involved than accurizing a mini 14. a one inch group of 5 shots @ 50 yds is very good considering the bullet is nearly a 1/2" in diameter already. i have some good hand loads and 300 gr BARNES spitzers (go farther on the same powder charge as 300 gr FNHP's).

both of my 45-70's have 22" barrels w/1:22 twist so 2400 fps is about all this big bullet can stand at that rate. BUT..... a ruger # 1 with a 26" barrel and 1:14 twist will take it over 2600 fps. AND..... the 300 gr spitzer w/114.0 gr of 4064 in 460 weatherby, and a 1:10 twist will make better than 3000 fps through a 24" barrel (range 300+ yd). very nice big bore varmint rifle! :eek: :cannon: :D


:cool: :usa: :beer:

[djl4570]

I have seen these advertised. A bolt action 45-70 is an interesting concept but front locking bolt action rifles that can accomodate the large rim are not common. One of the factors that limited accuracy of the Lee Enfield was the rear lock up of the bolt. This rear locking lug allows the receiver to flex during firing. I suspect this would more of a problem in 45-70 because the bullets are so much heavier. I would be cautious with stiff loads and go no higher than the lever gun section in the loading manuals.

Another benefit that you may get by opening up the chamber to 45-90 is that the rifle will chamber 45-70 cartridges loaded with long nose bullets. My single shots have a very short throat and will not chamber a long nose bullet.

The best ultra high strength 45-70's were built on Siamese mausers which you could buy back in the seventies for about $60.00. I wish my crystal ball had told me to buy some back then. In 15 years I think I've seen two or three Siamese mausers at gun shows. I know a smith who said he's interested in converting one.

[swill269]

:o
djl4570,

i have an old h & r shikari from the 70's. it looks a lot like the handi rifle today but it is 1:22 twist and the handi is 1:20. the handi handles the faster loads better for accuracy than my slow twist. the enfield is 1:22 also and neither rifle likes anything much faster than 2300 fps in a 300 gr. i have some barnes 250 gr "X" bullets but have not loaded them yet.

i am looking to get away from imr 4198 because of it's shape. it does not measure well and i was wondering if you had a recomendation for replacement. i like the burn rate very well but need a smaller better shaped powder.

:cool: :usa: :beer:

[djl4570]

Originally posted by swill269@Jan 1 2004, 04:58 PM
:o
i am looking to get away from imr 4198 because of it's shape. it does not measure well and i was wondering if you had a recomendation for replacement. i like the burn rate very well but need a smaller better shaped powder.

Given that you like 4198; I would give H322 a shot. It is a short cut extruded powder that is slower burning but meters a lot more smoothly better than 4198. H335 is a ball powder that meters like water.

Look in the Hodgdon #27 and Lyman #48 manuals to compare these loads with the Marlin 1895 section.


I found this on the Hodgdon site. If it's safe in a trapdoor it should be OK in your rifle. You'll need the manual to get the Marlin 1895 section with lists higher pressure loads. These are max loads so reduce 5% and work back up.
45-70 GOVERNMENT (TRAPDOOR RIFLE)
CASE: WINCHESTER - BBL: 24" - PR: CCI 200 - 300 GR. SIE HP - COL: 2.525"
VARGET 63.0 C 2020 23,800 CUP
H335 63.5 2143 27,400 CUP
H4895 62.0 C 1974 21,000 CUP
BENCHMARK 63.5 C 2113 27,400 CUP
H322 60.0 2142 28,000 CUP
H4198 55.0 2221 27,600 CUP

[swill269]

:o
djl4570,

thanx for the data!

if you get a chance take a look at Ron Card's article on the gibbs summit @:

www.chuckhawks.com/gibbs_summit.htm

sorry i can't do links yet.

:cool: :usa: :beer:

[djl4570]

The SMLE is still a rear lock up. Very hot "Ruger #1" loads may cause receiver flex and distort the accuracy as well as being unpleasant to shoot.

You can punish yourself with the midrange "Marlin 1895" loads in Hodgdon #27 and in Lyman #48.

That being said given the strength of the action described in that link you should try some of the 500g Hornady (http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/795411) available from various online vendors.

[swill269]

:o
sad to say but the smle is a cluggy rifle at best. :( it shoar ain't no REM 700. :eek:

i like the potential of the 460 weatherby w/250 gr barnes "X" bullets. :D

:cool: :usa: :beer:

[swill269]

:o
hey djl4570,

i just traded my old 70's erra H&R shikari (45/70) for a new H&R "Buffalo Hunter". :rolleyes: will this weapon stand up to some hotter loads? :( i found some H4198 small extruded powder, they say it measures better. i also bought some H335, it might like the longer (32") barrel :eek: 300 gr jacketed ammo is all i will use in it. ;)

can you give me any pointers, i know nothing about the weapon except it has a 1:20 twist. thats is a little faster than most @ 1:22.

Thanks in advance.

:cool: :usa: :beer: :cannon: :blink:

[djl4570]

Is that the single shot break action with the peep sight? I cannot say for certain what kind of hot loads it would take. The loads I posted above from the Hodgdon site are safe in a Trapdoor which is considered the least strong of all the 45-70's. These should be OK in any 45-70. Loads from the starting charge side of the Marlin lever action section (Hodgdon #27 or Lyman #48) might be OK; but remember the following: It is a reproduction of a black powder rifle, That cartridge with ~50g of smokeless is only a about four to six inches from your face, and there is no receiver between you and the chamber. :-) Be safe.

Does H&R have a website; maybe they offer some handloading tips or ammo tips. There are some extra hot factory 45-70 loads available intended for the Marlin guide gun. If the manufacturer says these are OK then you know the relative strength of the action.

H335 was a disappointment for me in 45-70. It is a fine ball powder that meters like water but grain for grain takes up less volume in the case. I didn't want to add enough powder to get the loading density I think it needed for good accuracy. Shiloh's are expensive and it would be embarrasing to explosively disassemble one with a handload. H335 might work better in your SMLE. For me the short grain extruded powders (H322, H4895 and Varget) give better loading density with lighter charges. In my experience high loading density has correlated with accuracy more often than not. Right now I'm working with Varget and have no reasons to change.

I loaded some excellent loads for the Marlin 1895 with 4198 and 300g JHPs I bought in bulk. Let my older brother shoot them the first time he ever shot a 45-70. The look on his face was one of the best Kodak moments I've ever seen.

Didn't someone make a cock on open kit for the SMLE? Check with Numrich.

All I can think of for now.

[swill269]

:o
thanks djl4570,

the buffalo classic is just a long barreled handi-rifle with a fancy stock & forend. the barrels are interchangable and range from .17 - 450 marlin. h&r says it will shoot any factory loads on the market today. it is advertised to optimize the large loads because of the long barrel.

i found a buffalo gun forum on a black powder bbs. this gun shoots smokeless & black powder both very well per the forum. out of all the single shot big bores popular today this is the cheapest and one of the best. they range from $450 - $2700. mine lists for $449 and i got it for $349 less $175 trade-in for my old h&r (it was $79 NIB in 1973). the buffalo was speacial ordered and won't be here til tuesday; then i'm headed to the swamp to zero it and maybe bag a hog (open season on hogs in GA).

i appreciate the dialog on the 45-70. there are not too many 45-70 shooters here. i have spent the last 2 weeks just studying load data to narrow my testing time and expence.

Thanx again.