Real World AK47 Group size

[280man]

Can a Romanian SAR be somehow tuned to produce consistent 2" groups with iron sites? Is this realistic? What do they shoot out of the box? Come on now feller's tell the truth on this one! heh heh heh. Seriously 2" is fine by me, but over 6 is not. My mini 14 shoots 5" groups out of the box with irons or scope or anything else, that is what it does with any and every ammo I put through it. Haven't tuned it yet in any way. thinking of getting an SAR but accuracy is the question.

[Corpsie]

I was sighting in my SAR1 using Wolf Bimetal Softpoints with 154 grains of powder at 25 yards & I got a 1.5" group. (would be about a 6" group at 100yards )

The large source of scatter is mainly due to my lack of shooting experience.

I just got 1000 rounds of Wolf Bimetal hollow points with 122 grains of powder. Hopefully I can shoot with that a bit better.

[Flak 2]

My SAR3's in 223 outshoot my Mini 14's with open sites. Group size is'nt affected as much on the SAR3 when the barrel gets hot either.

[boogeyman]

The SAR 1 I have will come close 2" @ 50. I can hit a 3" magnum pistol spinner consistantly.I cracked it with a slug last year so why not finish the job with an AK :D

[quadfan]

First of all....you must be a little :confused: to even try to group AK47's!!!

They hold 30+ rds for a REASON!!! Spray.... and Pray!!! Point and shoot till the bad guy falls down!!!
The thing the AK has going for it,is that it WILL work!!! No matter what!!! Pretty much anything can be done to them (within reason) and they will still function! What more can you ask from a battlefield implement?
Can you hit a cantelope at 30 paces? Good Enough!!! ;) :D :D

[Flak 2]

Thats true everyone pretty much uses the AK for the bullet hose it is.

About the only accuracy stuff I've seen was Red Star Arms sponsered a fellow that shot A modified 223 Vepr in NRA matches. They used to have all the info and mods on their web page. The guy smoked quite a few AR15 shooters and did very well at matches.

I've heard of some pretty good results out of 308 Vepr's as well. I would think handloading in 223 or 308 with an AK type rifle would yield the best results.

The AR rifles are just more accurate by their design. It's very rare an AR15 is'nt capable of 3 MOA with surplus ammo.

[boogeyman]

I plan to hunt the Adoirondacks for deer the fall with my AK so groups were in order. I don't want to track a wounded deer around mountains.

[halfMOA]

If your lucky mabye, but not on a consistant baisis. My SAR-1 can put every bullet up to 3-30rounders through a 5 inch cake plate at 100m. This is done as fast as I can get the dot on the plate about a 1.2-1.5 shots a second from a sandbag.I have a Russian 1X PKA red dot on the siderail, stoned the trigger sear and hammer for better trigger pull, and added a
AK-74 type brake. Im sure if you take your gun and cut a 11 degree crown on the barrell, and a good trigger and practice then you should get tight enough groups. This gun is no M1A. But it does its job well. what more could you ask for. I out shoot much more expinsive VEPR and Poly-Tech's and they get ****ed when I tell them that it is a SAR.

[DocWagon]

I've also been considering an AK or an AR, and found this ammo comparison that's really interesting for group size for AK-47s with different ammo.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=54&t=56018

[boogeyman]

Thanks for the ammo overview! I can keep all 30 in a 6" or so group @ 100 yards with wolf,i'll try with the Barnul when I get some.

[DocWagon]

I took my Romanian SAR-1 to the range today and remembered to take the 10 round mag so it would fit on my rifle rest. The 50 yard range was full, so I used the 30 yard range. I had several 3 shot groups in the 1.5" range. However, I also had some fliers that opened some of the groups up to 4" on occasion. This was using Barnaul HP.

I think I'm going to replace the trigger before too much longer. The pull just doesn't seem consistent with the stock set up.

[halfMOA]

have you ground down the disconnector so it doesn't contact the trigger and slap it when the bolt is cycling? Or does yours not have that annoying trigger slap? Just stone the edges up a bit and polish them and it works wonders for the trigger break. Try not to change any angles though. A SAR just needs to be rubbed the right way to get it on par with guns twice as expensive. It is just as accurate as the best ones on the market. I finished my stock with that sprayable truck bed liner, and it is tough. Id like to pick up a SAR-3 because of the better quality ammo that is out there. I guess I should do it before too long. They could ban them tomorrow.... so support the NRA and write your congressman. and God bless America.

[guncats]

my mini-30 gets 1.5-2" group consistantly, 5-shot 100yd, after a little tuning.
But, only with cheetah ammo, and cheetah doesn't make any hp or sp rounds at all. so can't hunt with it. :unsure:

Have fun.

[DocWagon]

Originally posted by halfMOA@Nov 7 2003, 03:46 AM
have you ground down the disconnector so it doesn't contact the trigger and slap it when the bolt is cycling? Or does yours not have that annoying trigger slap? Just stone the edges up a bit and polish them and it works wonders for the trigger break. Try not to change any angles though. A SAR just needs to be rubbed the right way to get it on par with guns twice as expensive. It is just as accurate as the best ones on the market. I finished my stock with that sprayable truck bed liner, and it is tough. Id like to pick up a SAR-3 because of the better quality ammo that is out there. I guess I should do it before too long. They could ban them tomorrow.... so support the NRA and write your congressman. and God bless America.
I've never noticed trigger slap with mine, so I guess I may have just gotten lucky in that respect. The furniture is also a lot better looking than a lot of them I've seen. It just doesn't seem to break consistentlty

http://www.geocities.com/docwagon1776/SAR_magazine.jpg

[geoman]

There is nothing my ak47 cant do at 100 yards! opps except group anything other than all inside the circle. wolf makes a nice 122 hp that is very consistant.

[nagalfar]

There is only one honest way to check group size.. and thats to lock the weapon being tested in to a rifle vise.. and use a number of brands and weights of ammo, there are so many variables.. but thinking you can listen to someone who is shooting tight or off the paper groups using any other method will only be as good as the man using the weapon, the ammo and conditions he is shooting in.. then add individual weapon specs, and shooters exp. with the rifle being tested.. and you have about 10K of different variables.. I know it dont help much.. but it is none the less fact..

[ppro]

Nagalfar
I think he was asking about real world accuracy....which naturally includes all the variables such as the shooter etc.

The one thing I have found that makes the biggest difference with the AK (sar 1 etc) is the ammunition.

I have three of SAR 1's and all tend to shoot the run of the mill cheap ammo as good as the ammo is cheap.....period.

If you pull down any of the com bloc ammunition you will find much more variation in component weight and powder weight variation than you will find with most average U.S. made ammo....

With most weapons, and the AK is no exception....tuned handloads produce very good results so long as the weapon is without problems per say.

My real world accuracy runs about 1 1/2 to 2 inches at 100 yds for my Sar1's....with handloads....without working at it.

For the sake of discussion...go look at the AR 15.com site related to handloading....lots of tests and development.

Go look on the average AK site...very little or no load development.

Don't blame the weapon.....for the most part...they shoot very well. read: accurately......but not with most of the junk people feed them.

My SUPER VEPR is the same design as my SAR 1 and easily shoots 1/2" regularly.

My Saigas (again ak pattern)....shoot very well.....as in 1" for the .308 and 1/2 to 3/4 for the .223........but not with junk Russian or com bloc ammo....not ever.

There is nothing in the design of the AK that really precludes good accuracy....or they wouldn't have bothered with the SVD.......

IT MAY BE THE NUT BEHIND THE WHEEL, OR THE AMMO....:)

Paul

[ARCHERS]

iron sights at 50 yrds with my SAR1 hmmm. im sure i could do it once :rolleyes:
no really i think 3" with open sights is doable. i know it can be done with a scope. at 50 yrds with my 4x24 side mount scope i eat the center out of a 100 yrd rifle target with 30 rounds. i just have to keep myself calm so i dont lose it and empty the thing :rapid: . i think the ak gets a bad rep for its accuracy because no one really takes the time to settle down and fire the thing to get 2" groups.