30/30 improved martini

[wharf]

[FONT=Arial]gday people,I own a bsa martini 30/30 improved.Its a new toy ,ive had mixed reactions from people at the range.some tell me to rebarrel because the pressure will be high.others have said it will be fine,and that my 222k rimmed has more pressure.if anyone has any suggested loads i would appreciate it.thanks :angry:

[Blackwater]

Wharf, you don't say what model Martini you have - the large ones or a little Cadet - but here's some general info.

Take a std. case and fill it to the case mouth with the powder you plan to use. Do this several times, and average your results. Then use a near max. load for the STANDARD .30/30 to fireform your cases. When you have the fireformed cases, with minimal taper and shoulder blown forward and sharpened in angle, again fill a new, fireformed case with the same powder you used for the std. cases. Average the results of several of these in the improved case. Now, just divide the wt. of the powder from the std. case into the wt. of powder in the improved case, and you have a percentage INCREASE of the powder room. Reduce that % of increase by 10 to 20% to give yourself a bit of "working room" for the sake of safety. In other words, if you get an increase of 18% in powder holding capacity, reduce that by 1.8%, which will give you a reasonable charge increase of 16.2% (18% less 1.8% is 16.2%, right?). Then just add 16.2% to the max. listed load for the std. .30/30, and you ought not get into trouble. I use this method for my .35 Whelen Ackley Imp., and I'm probably a little conservative in my loading, but I'm STILL getting some fine performance.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS DOES NOT - - - I REPEAT *N*O*T* WORK - - - WITH BALL POWDERS! BALL POWDERS ARE DESIGNED TO WORK WITHIN MORE NARROW LIMITS THAN EXTRUDED TYPE POWDERS, AND BURN DIFFERNTLY, SO DO NOT USE THIS TECHNIQUE WITH BALL POWDERS.

For ball powders, find a case that's very close to your .30/30 Imp.'s powder carrying capacity and you MIGHT be O.K. if you take data FROM THE SAME SOURCE (different sources - Horn., Sierra, etc., use different criteria to develop their data, so using data from one and data from another is mixing apples and oranges - don't do it!) for the .30/30 and the .300 Savage, you can then figure what % the powder capacity of your Imp. is in relation to the loads of the .30/30 std. and the .300 Savage, and just load to that proportional mid-point. For instance, let's say you find the max load for the std. .30/30 is 44 gr., and the max load from the same info source for the .300 Savage is 50 gr. Then let's say a case fulls of that powder in the std. .30/30 case, the Imp. case, and the .300 case is, respectively 48, 54 and 56 gr., then your 54 gr. charge wt. of your Imp. is 75% of the way from the std. .30/30 to the .300 Savage. (there's 6 gr. increase going from the std. .30/30 to the Imp. and 8 gr. in going from the std. .30/30 to the .300)

Then, find the max loads for the .30/30 with that powder, and the max load with that powder in the .300. Let's say those loads are, 42 gr. and 47 gr. There's a difference of 5 gr., right? Then we take 75% of the DIFFERENCE between the loads, which is 5 gr., and your max load with the Imp. should be 42 gr. (the std. .30/30 load) PLUS 75% of the DIFFERNECE between the std. .30/30 and the .300, and 75% of that 5 gr. difference is 3 3.4 gr., or let's just say 3.7 gr.

That would make your Imp.'s max. load 42 gr. plus 3.7 gr., or 45.7 gr. Make sense? The 45.7 gr. charge is 75% of the way BETWEEN the charge of the std. .30/30 and the .300. Therefore, the respective max. charges for THAT powder ONLY, in the 3 cases are: 42 gr. with the std. .30/30, 45.7 gr. with the Imp., and 47 gr. with the .300.

If you are not FULLY and COMPLETELY 100% comfortable with this explanation, DO NOT USE IT! Reloading CAN be DANGEROUS, and only an abject fool uses data or processes he doesn't completely understand and feel totally comfortable with.

Also, those old Martinis are NOT made of modern steels, and are more prone to have flaws in the steels, so only a fool - again - abuses these fine old guns by loading them hot.

You WILL get LESS velocity from your Imp. case if you load std. .30/30 loads in your Imp. cases. Same amt. of powder in a larger case simply can't produce as high a pressure as when it's confined in a smaller space. Make sense? How much???? Depends on powder, powder type, the specifics of the size differences, and lots of other stuff. It's all relative, and if you can't figure out ratios, or if you don't want to accept the differences in the way ball powders and extruded powders burn, then DON'T USE ANY OF THIS.

Reloadin' ain't child's play, and it CAN be DANGEROUS. You've got a good caliber, and in a single shot like you have, you can also use pointed bullets, which even further improve the results of the caliber down range. Pointy bullets will give even the std. .30/30 enough of an edge - IF the bullets are properly constructed - to make the ol' Thutty Thutty into a passable 300 yd. "deer gun" when used by the right hands. Pointy bullets in a .30/30 will surprise most onlookers. Add the extra velocity of the Imp. case to it, and you get a darned decent hunting rifle. Just don't abuse it with "hot loads." There's really no need anyway. If you want 1% more velocity, get 2 yds. closer to that 200 yd. deer. I bet it won't be difficult.

Martinis are neat guns. The .30/30's really a neat and highly underestimated caliber. The Ackley or other "Improved" versions are even more of the same. I think you've got a very neat gun there, and it ought to be hunted and loaded at it is. Spending money for a std. barrel just doesn't make sense at all. Just work with this info, or buzz me over at the Church of the Painful Truth if you don't get a response from me. I don't get over here very often.

Like I said, I use this technique with my .35 Whelen Ackley Imp., and once you understand how it works, it's really not difficult at all. Just be DANG sure you REMEMBER that BALL powders have ONE rule and the extruded powders A WHOLE 'NOTHER set of rules. Let me know if I can be of further help.

BTW, I'm envious of your gun! Have fun with it.

[wharf]

thanks for the info blackwater,your explanation helped me a great deal.my martini is a small .310 cadet which has been reamed for 3030 imp.I have had a gunsmith I trust look at the gun and he suggested I keep velocity down around 2300/2400 fps.the powders I use are australian made ADI powders,extruded rifle powder.I prefer to use them because they are not really tempeture affected.I wasnt really looking for this calibre rifle but the price was hard to go past(150 dollars aust).the fact I can load pointed bullets is what sold me,my main use will be hunting feral pigs,roos and any foxes or wild dogs that get in front of it.Ill keep you posted on the groupings I get out of it.thanks again mate........

[Blackwater]

Wharf, sorry to take so long to get back here. Only so much time, and so many places to "spend" it, ya' know???

Anyway, I'm glad it was of some use. Those little Cadet actions are supposed to be - I hear, at lest - stronger than they "ought" to be, but that poses its own peculiar danger. When you've got an action that's got a thin range between "will" and "won't" take the pressure, you really have to be judicious about loading for it.

Those nearly straight sided imp. rounds don't show pressures as quickly as more tapered rounds will. I've also heard factory reps quoted as saying that if they release primers that won't stand 70,000 psi without cratering or blowing, folks clammor and rant about "soft primers." Add all this together, and - now that I'm older and not "10 feet tall, bulletproof and immortal" anymore - I tend to find the point at which the load is "fine" a lot quicker than I used to. :)

If you ever want to get rid of that rifle, waltz on over to the Church of the Painful Truth forum and grab me by the collar. Sounds like a neat rifle. I envy you.

I think if it were my own rifle, I'd try the Nosler 125 gr. Ballistic Tips in it for smaller deer-sized species, and 150 gr. pointed whatevers for everything else that might run larger. In a .30/30 imp., I'd probably quit at about 2600 -2650 fps. I think that would be doable with the more efficient powders in that case, but that's just a guess. I'm not familiar with the Aussie powders, but I'd go with something the equivalent of no faster than our American 3031, and likely no slower than our 4320 or 4064. With some powders being more dense than other, more "traditional" type powders, it's possible a slower powder might be useful. Some of the Vihtavuori powders come to mind. I've used their N-540 and N-550 in my Whelen Ack. Imp., and the expansion ratio for that ought to be somewhat similar, at least, to the .30/30 Imp.

Like a man once said, though, "Ain't no way to know 'till you try." Just use caution and a chrono and you'll do fine, I think.

Very neat rifle you've got there. Enjoy!