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Old 08-27-2012, 08:42   #1
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Check this out, I'm confused..

Sooo as some of you may or may not know me, I have been around on some of the different boards asking questions and posting replies. Specially to this AR board. Well some of you may know not long ago I bought a BCM Bolt and a couple Pmags. Well Finally after all this time I have a finished product of a AR. BCM Charging handle, BCM Bolt, and BCM guts inside my Windham weaponary lower. Windham upper, quad railed, forward grip, XTM quad rail covers, Magpul B A D lever, the full works. SO yesterday, finally was test day. I took my AR out to the range I have behind my house and I was excited to put her to the test.

Problem,
Fired about 2 rounds and the SOB jammed, Cleared it Chambered new round.
Fired 1 round double feed. Now I am angry, I finish out the mag with continuous jam and double feed problem. Took her apart on the range, switched bolts replaced the BCM bolt with the Windham bolt that came stock. Dumped rounds out of the PMAGS and put them in standard GI mags. Magged dumped 2 magazines without a single failure.

Question,
Does this soung more like, new pmags too much tension and forcing double feed and jamming problem, or does this sound more like a BOLT problem?

Additional Information,
I would like as much detail with your replies as possible. I am a fast responder, I have no problem giving more in dept detail if need be. Thanks in advance.

-Dustin
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Old 08-27-2012, 14:05   #2
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What exactly are experiencing when you say it jammed?
When you say double feed, do you mean it tried to chamber two rounds or fired two rounds with one pull of the trigger?
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Old 08-27-2012, 17:22   #3
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Originally Posted by woodstock View Post
What exactly are experiencing when you say it jammed?
When you say double feed, do you mean it tried to chamber two rounds or fired two rounds with one pull of the trigger?
Problem #1[[[ Prior service, Double feed is a term we use to say two rounds are trying to chamber, and because this happens a round lodges into the star causing the bolt to not slide fully forward. Dropping mag, pulling bolt to rear clears this problem, but still a problem. By saying Jam, the term I used is actually false, not true at all. ]]]

***(Jams are expected, but not particularly with me, I run a tight ship with all my fire arms, I THOROUGHLY clean my weapons of all gunk, and properly oil them. Even so SPORTS is a term we used to clear this pesky problem).*** <-- Just thought I would add that. Military term most people don't know about, that should be a known term with all AR type weapons. Google

What I should of said is, here is a example since it happened multiple times.

Problem #2[[[ I fire a round, it ejects clean. Next round tries to chamber and it doesn't fully chamber, and bolt does not go all the way forward. If I pull the bolt back a tad, and when I say tad we're talking a very small movement (just enough to take the tension off), the round falls into place as it is suppose to.

Some rounds chamber. Some don't, they go about almost all the way in and stick about a quarter of a inch the way out without fully going into the chamber. ]]]

Hope this cleared it up, Glad you caught that, bad terminology on my part.

EDIT:

Thought I would add this in case I am in the bed when somebody replies and was curious on the condition of the products.

PMAGS;
Brand Spanking NEW!;
Never even put rounds through the AR using them. Let them sit fully loaded (30 rounds) over 2 weeks before using them, trying to break some of the tension down.

BCM Bolt;
Brand Spanking NEW!;
All BCM Bolts are subject to a quality test before shipping, testing their products before sending them to the consumer. However this is the first time I ran this BCM bolt in this weapon.
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Last edited by Dustinc10181; 08-27-2012 at 17:56. Reason: forgot a little bit of detail
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Old 08-27-2012, 17:46   #4
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If your wondering "This dude writes way to much". It is because I add detail in all my problems not looking for just a detailed answer, but because people do read what we post on the forums. I not only look to fix my problem but hopefully help others with theirs. So I apologize ahead for the long post, but I look out for my fellow Perfect Union goers!
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Old 08-27-2012, 18:36   #5
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Are you using the same bolt that came with it and just switching it between the two carriers or is the BCM a complete bolt and carrier?
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Old 08-27-2012, 21:40   #6
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Dustin. Go over to AR15.com and get on the INDUSTRY part of the ar15 forum, go
down to WINDHAM and ask their gunsmith Erik. Or call them at 855 808 1888 and
ask for Erik Winter
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Old 08-28-2012, 06:10   #7
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Insert the BCM bolt using the GI mags, then try the Magpul mags, then try the same process with the Windham bolt. you should have the item causing the problem narrowed down by then.

Does the upper have M4 feed ramps? Is it Chambered for .223 or 5.56? What charging handle are you using and what weight buffer do you have? Are you running a Full Auto BCG or a Semi-Auto BCG?

After shooting BCM bolts in my BCM, LMT and RRA uppers without a single failure I seriously doubt it's the BCM bolt, I also doubt that the Magpul mags are causing your problem.....soooo, my guess is that the Windham rifle is not mil-spec and the slight differences in dimensions and fit could be affecting the operation.....just a guess based on your issues....and how you described them.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:47   #8
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Originally Posted by Gunzilla View Post
Insert the BCM bolt using the GI mags, then try the Magpul mags, then try the same process with the Windham bolt. you should have the item causing the problem narrowed down by then.

Does the upper have M4 feed ramps? Is it Chambered for .223 or 5.56? What charging handle are you using and what weight buffer do you have? Are you running a Full Auto BCG or a Semi-Auto BCG
I am running a complete Bolt Carrier Group from BCM, .223 and 5.56 are similar yet not identical.

The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues. While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity.

So its not the ammo, M4 feed ramps - yes I have. M4 barrel.
Full auto BCG but no matter they can be used in semi rifles without a problem. The Buffer, the stock buffer / spring in Windhams weapons. I am running BCM Mod 4 Charging Handle
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:49   #9
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Yes I need to run one bolt with GI Mags, then the other. Then use with PMAGS and switch bolts. I ran out of ammo this day and decided to look on here for cause or maybe why. But guess ill have to.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:22   #10
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Well, my thinking was to try the Windham bolt in the BCM carrier and see if you still have a problem. It could be that the BCM bolt itself is not matching up properly to your Windham chamber. At any rate, if you swap the bolts, in other words use the BCM bolt carrier with the Windham bolt and have no problems, then you have ruled out the carrier and narrowed it down to the bolt itself.
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Old 08-28-2012, 13:06   #11
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Originally Posted by woodstock View Post
Well, my thinking was to try the Windham bolt in the BCM carrier and see if you still have a problem. It could be that the BCM bolt itself is not matching up properly to your Windham chamber. At any rate, if you swap the bolts, in other words use the BCM bolt carrier with the Windham bolt and have no problems, then you have ruled out the carrier and narrowed it down to the bolt itself.
Ahhhhhh ok ok I see what your saying, hmm good thinking there woodstock, ill be sure to give that a try. Seems like a great idea.
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Old 08-28-2012, 14:10   #12
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Originally Posted by Dustinc10181 View Post
I am running a complete Bolt Carrier Group from BCM, .223 and 5.56 are similar yet not identical.

The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues. While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity.

So its not the ammo, M4 feed ramps - yes I have. M4 barrel.
Full auto BCG but no matter they can be used in semi rifles without a problem. The Buffer, the stock buffer / spring in Windhams weapons. I am running BCM Mod 4 Charging Handle
First off, I didn't need a lesson in 'ammo', 'chambers' or 'BCGs' I simply asked you what yours was chamber in and if you had a full auto carrier and a semi auto carrier...and what buffer you have. IT CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Second, what weight buffer you are running could be a factor if your buffer is too light you could be getting bolt bounce based again on what BCG you are running. Bolt bounce can, in some cases, jar an extra round out of the magazine thus you'd be getting 2 rounds trying to load at once.....like you are getting.

You say that it works fine with the Windham BCG but fails with the BCM BCG, my guess is you have a Windham semi-auto BCG and the heavier BCM carrier is not working with your Windham buffer. You may need a H2 buffer to slow your bolt down and prevent the bolt bounce I mentioned.

You have a number of parts that are reliant on each other for proper operation, if one is not matched up with the rest you are going to have issues.
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Old 08-28-2012, 14:51   #13
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You may need a H2 buffer to slow your bolt down and prevent the bolt bounce I mentioned.
I'm sorry but will have to disagree on that note. The heavier bolt carrier should slow the cycling of the bcg down already. Normally if you run a lighter bolt, you need to run a heavier spring to slow down the cyclic rate of the bolt.
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Old 08-28-2012, 16:21   #14
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Originally Posted by Gunzilla View Post
First off, I didn't need a lesson in 'ammo', 'chambers' or 'BCGs' I simply asked you what yours was chamber in and if you had a full auto carrier and a semi auto carrier...and what buffer you have. IT CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
If you didn't need a lesson, then you would know it wouldn't be a factor at all. It might be chambered for 5.56 but 223 would be just the same thing, less grain less pow, with cheaper primers and lighter brass. Unless I am trying to run 5.56 in .223 then that would be a whole set of another problems. So the ammo wouldn't matter one bit in this situation.

As I said in previous post its a AUTO BCG, and as I said its WINDHAMS STOCK BUFFER. .223 rem 55 grain ammo (BRASS) Yes the WINDHAM bolt is semi

ALSO AS I SAID BEFORE, I ran details for others who might be having the same problem, to help them get information on it as well. I am glad you are taking the time to help and your opinions are greatly appreciated.

However what you stated in your last post, DOES make sense to me. Except I am with woodstock on that one part, the BCG bolt should slow the cycle rate down already

SO LATEST UPDATE--------

I am switching the bolts on the Bolt Carrier Groups and going to run them that way and see if there is a issue.

After I run them with different Mags to see if the issue still presents itself

At that time IF STILL there is a issue, I might just try switching whole buffer assembly from windham to BCM, might be the problem. As Gunzilla stated, they are made for one another to run properly and me mixing the parts may be causing the issue.
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Old 09-04-2012, 20:16   #15
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Originally Posted by Antman View Post
Dustin. Go over to AR15.com and get on the INDUSTRY part of the ar15 forum, go
down to WINDHAM and ask their gunsmith Erik. Or call them at 855 808 1888 and
ask for Erik Winter
Dustin, as I said above! He's sure to know what's wrong. I have used him before. FREE!
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