Location: Democratic People's Republic of Fail-i-fornia
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by TacticalGenius
Not to sound flippant, but,how do you think you gain said "prior experience"? You gotta start by building the uppers and lowers yourself, that's how. By your logic, I shouldn't change my own oil since I'm not ASE certified. Why do I change my oil and build my AR's? Because I am smarter than a 2-year old, can read and follow instructions and have patience to do the job right because I know that if I do mess up, I suffer the consequences, I also have the right tools to do so.
It isn't as scary and complicated as folks make it out to be. I feel they surround building an AR with a negative stigma beacause they don't truly understand the platform, it's intracacies and how it works What people don't know scares them. Building helps with that and by building, you can repair your firearm if a part fails because you have the knowledge from the build and the tools to do so.
TG
Changing your own oil won't result in anything horrible happening as long as you remove the old oil and replace it with fresh oil. Worst that could happen is you cook your engine and you're out of a vehicle.
Incorrectly torquing an AR15 barrel could result in improper headspacing and cause you to lose a hand, arm, or life. I've seen several build videos on Youtube where someone just hand tightens an AR15 barrel and says "looks good to me!" and starts slinging lead down range. This isn't gradual and something you can control like avoiding a car accident, when that first round goes off, there's no time to jump behind some sandbags.
I'm not saying don't attempt anything ever. But one thing that concerns me is no one ever links someone a guide on how to do any of this properly, they just give them the go ahead and tell them to start shopping around for an upper, a barrel, and an armor's wrench.
If you go into this thinking that it's as easy as changing your oil, you're asking for trouble.
Torque Values:
Compensator (Flash Suppressor) - 15 to 20 Ft. Lbs.
Barrel Nut - 30 Ft. lbs. Minimum, not to exceed 80 Ft. Lbs. to align the next slot in the barrel nut.
Carrier Key Screws - 35 INCH pounds to 40 INCH pounds.
Lower Receiver Extension (Buffer Tube)
Rifle - 35 to 39 Ft. Lbs.
Carbine - Tighten the locking nut to 40 INCH pounds plus or minus 2 INCH pounds.
Incorrectly torquing an AR15 barrel could result in improper headspacing and cause you to lose a hand, arm, or life. I've seen several build videos on Youtube where someone just hand tightens an AR15 barrel and says "looks good to me!" and starts slinging lead down range. This isn't gradual and something you can control like avoiding a car accident, when that first round goes off, there's no time to jump behind some sandbags.
But one thing that concerns me is no one ever links someone a guide on how to do any of this properly, they just give them the go ahead and tell them to start shopping around for an upper, a barrel, and an armor's wrench.
If you go into this thinking that it's as easy as changing your oil, you're asking for trouble.
Torque Values:
Compensator (Flash Suppressor) - 15 to 20 Ft. Lbs.
Barrel Nut - 30 Ft. lbs. Minimum, not to exceed 80 Ft. Lbs. to align the next slot in the barrel nut.
Carrier Key Screws - 35 INCH pounds to 40 INCH pounds.
Lower Receiver Extension (Buffer Tube)
Rifle - 35 to 39 Ft. Lbs.
Carbine - Tighten the locking nut to 40 INCH pounds plus or minus 2 INCH pounds.
- Firstly, Youtube has tons of dipsh**s that post anything because they can. They obviously don't understand consequences, don't have a shred of sense, and can't read. Yes, I agree, you can't just slap this rifle together and be good to go. But follwing instructions and taking your time, you can do it yourself and be good to go. I wouldn't hesitate to trust my families life or my life to the rifles I assemble. This is because I wasn't afraid of the unknown. I embraced it and researched how to build the rifle correctly, bought the parts to do so and took my time building them while watching and pausing the video to catch up the point in the build the video was on. Then after completing the build, I checked the headspace with the proper gages.
- As far as no one ever referring folks to a good place to go for information on how to build these rifles, check out this thread... Barrel Length help? Third post, second paragraph near the bottom. Or you can get the AGI video on how to assemble an AR15 like I did.
- I never said it is as easy as changing your oil. I was simply illustrating a point about your logic of discouraging people from assembling their own ARs. Still, building the AR is pretty damn easy, and thanks to all the torque specs you provided and the links I suggested to go to for quality instructions, people can now do it correctly the first time and safely.
Without question, if I were going to go for low price, I'd not build it myself.
There are certain things with building that could result in a rifle that does not function properly. Even if it were not your fault for building it wrong, the fact that you put the collection of parts together yourself could possibly leave you out of luck in trying to get something fixed under warranty should it be necessary.
For example. . say you have a bolt problem. . . first you'd have to figure out what the problem was (was it your lower parts construction, is it a gas problem, is it a barrel issue, or is it your bolt assembly ? ) Then send the bolt back to the mfg. . . . but have them say . . "oh, but how do you know its the bolt and not the gas system . .? "
If you get a full rifle, just send it back to the manufacturer and tell them it doesn't work and to fix it.
Ok - all of this said, I will state that I've built rifles myself and it is a fun hobby. I enjoy figuring out all the parts and from whom etc. . and then going through the assembly. There is something gratifying about building a good one that you designed and that works and shoots great !
I would not get the S&W M&P Sport rifle. Because it lacks some key features and I'd be ok to pay a little more and get a full fledged rifle.
If I wanted a cheap one, it'd be the DPMS Oracle for $675.
My other AR's I mentioned btw are a Daniel Defense and Pre-ban Bushmaster Vmatch.
I actually am thinking about the Oracle and going to throw a Magpul MOE handguard and stock on to pretty it up.
Location: Democratic People's Republic of Fail-i-fornia
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by ohioboy
Without question, if I were going to go for low price, I'd not build it myself.
There are certain things with building that could result in a rifle that does not function properly. Even if it were not your fault for building it wrong, the fact that you put the collection of parts together yourself could possibly leave you out of luck in trying to get something fixed under warranty should it be necessary.
For example. . say you have a bolt problem. . . first you'd have to figure out what the problem was (was it your lower parts construction, is it a gas problem, is it a barrel issue, or is it your bolt assembly ? ) Then send the bolt back to the mfg. . . . but have them say . . "oh, but how do you know its the bolt and not the gas system . .? "
If you get a full rifle, just send it back to the manufacturer and tell them it doesn't work and to fix it.
Ok - all of this said, I will state that I've built rifles myself and it is a fun hobby. I enjoy figuring out all the parts and from whom etc. . and then going through the assembly. There is something gratifying about building a good one that you designed and that works and shoots great !
I would not get the S&W M&P Sport rifle. Because it lacks some key features and I'd be ok to pay a little more and get a full fledged rifle.
If I wanted a cheap one, it'd be the DPMS Oracle for $675.
My other AR's I mentioned btw are a Daniel Defense and Pre-ban Bushmaster Vmatch.
I actually am thinking about the Oracle and going to throw a Magpul MOE handguard and stock on to pretty it up.
This is a very valid point that I hadn't even considered. Especially considering if you're looking to save money by building an AR15 yourself, if you hit an unexpected snag with it's operation due to a part with a defect or what have you, you will inevitably spend more money than expected either trying to diagnose the problem by replacing the parts, or sending it to a shop that will work on it for a fee compared to a company, say Bushmaster or DPMS who have some form of warranty on their rifles.
I personally would never encourage someone to assemble an upper themselves. By that I mean the attaching of a barrel to an upper receiver. Unless you have the proper tools and knowledge, you're asking for it to go bang in your face.
Granted all this can be found online but there is no replacement for prior experience and with things that go bang, there may not be any lessons learned if they have to stick you in the ground.
Other than that, if you can find a barreled upper receiver, everything else should be pretty safe.
You took what I said out of context. If you try to build an AR-15 with cheap parts in order to come in cheaper than a manufacturer rifle, you're gonna end up with a crappy rifle. Considering you can get a M&P so cheap, it's going to be darned difficult to build a quality rifle from scratch for less - especially if it's the first time you've built one. When you start building one, costs can quickly get out of hand. I spent about $400 more than I'd planned when I built mine, and that's not even counting optics and mounts.
The S&W M&P 15 Sport is a great rifle for the money. They can be had for $550-$600. They do have some things "Missing"
1. No Dust cover
2. No forward assist
3. The Trigger guard is a part of the lower not pinned in.
4. The barrel does not have the M203 cutout on it.
But for the money the thing is very accurate and I have yet to have one FTF or malfunction with mine.
Building a rifle is always a low cost option as well you need to include the cost of the specialty tools you will need to buy as well.
I bought my S&W M&P Sport for $685. Then I added my goodies fom MagPul and couldn't be happier with the final product.
I have rebarreled several hundred M-16s in my time. As long as you have the tools, knowledge and some patience, it's not rocket science.
IMO DIY is the only way to go (or custom order, which is far more expensive) in order to get exactly what you want.
I have never gotten around to building my own AR because every time I do, it gets ugly. Tacticool does not interest me (got a mini-14 for that)...I want to build something along these lines, and it ain't cheap:
I purchased my "new frontier lower" from my local gun shop for 74.00
surplus ammo upper w/kit 59.00
UTG mil spec stock w/buffer spring 50.00
brownells xm117 flash hider 16.00
cggn lower parts kit 50.00
surplus ammo hbar 16 inch 1:8 barrel 99.00
free float carbine handgaurd (midway) 35.00
surplus ammo gas tube 12.00
surplus ammo picattiny gas block .750 dia. 22.00
still need complete bcg and sights.
some of these things where ordered at diiferent times so include about 50.00 dollars in shipping..( order parts all at same time to save on shipping I would have saved another 70.00 dollars if i had)
and surplus ammo is pretty busy it took 9 days to get my stuff so be patient.
Qoute: THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH A LITTLE SHOOTING...AS LONG AS THE RIGHT PEOPLE GET SHOT!
if you follow all the procedures on how to install a barrel check head space and so forth, what else could go wrong for it to go Bang? unless it had something blocking the barrel? but even a noob would have noticed it?
I recently bought a Del-ton Echo 316/MOE for $749. For the coin its alot of gun. I have a couple hundred rounds thru mine and its very accurate and so far 100% reliable. It came with one pmag but since then I have bought 4 more. Check it out.
Well lets start with a build...You will need approx..$250+ in tools...If you are going to build one gun it isn`t worth it to spend this money...if you think you will build 3 guns then it starts being worth it to buy the tools...
Second if you purchase your upper separate from buying your lower even with the same companies parts you could end up with the upper and lower parts being loose...you will have to buy parts to try to make the 2 parts fit tight...this happens a lot.. and the place where you buy the parts are not responsible for it..it`s hit or miss and just a fact of life..
As far as building from scratch anyone with simple talent for building things can do it ..Youtube has a series of videos that take you through every single part you install. There's no secrets...and you don`t have to be a gunsmith to do it...you are just assembling parts that already are made to fit together....
Lastly if you purchase parts from many different manufactures and put them together..you will have whats called a "Franken gun" a name some have attached to guns made up from all kinds of different parts...If you ever end up selling it most will not be interested in purchasing it....so a resale will be low....
If you are looking for a entry level AR`s then wait for a sale on the gun you like and buy the whole gun finished...there will be little to no sayings for building it..Then as time goes by you can upgrade the parts you learn you want to have...No matter what you think now in the future you will change your mind and want to add things or even sell the one you have to get something else...and if you have a entry level gun from a well known Mfg. it will be easy to sell...
Another thing there are a lot of AR`s out there you can find some really excellent condition guns reasonable...I purchased a $1200 name brand gun for $600 total in like new cond....
This thread is not dead yet?? I'm just going to say it, as I have said it before. CHEAP and GOOD QUALITY can NOT be used in the same sentence. If you want a GOOD QUALITY AR, your going to be raking out some doe.
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. - AL
Well lets start with a build...You will need approx..$250+ in tools...If you are going to build one gun it isn`t worth it to spend this money...if you think you will build 3 guns then it starts being worth it to buy the tools...
Yup.... As you said in the rest of your post JIM, sometimes you can find a deal.
__________________
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. - AL
I have to disagree with those who say that if you build it yourself it will be crap, or you are better off to bite the bullet and buy one off the rack.
I don't think anyone has said that building your own rifle will result in a crap rifle. What they're saying is that following the idea of "the cheapest you can build a rifle" will probably result in a "crap rifle". My contention is that it's no more cost-effective (and if you want quality parts, it costs MORE) to build your own than to buy a reasonable quality cookie cutter gun.
My contention is that it's no more cost-effective (and if you want quality parts, it costs MORE) to build your own than to buy a reasonable quality cookie cutter gun.
Generally speaking, I have to agree with jsimmons' statement above.
You see, I've built a good share of AR-15's using quality components. And, at the end of the build, the end-product generally comes out to be just as pricey (if not more expensive) as if I bought an AR-15 off the shelf from my LGS. Believe me, I've added up every cent, including the price of every component, plus any shipping and/or sales tax.
Now, I must say that I have the satisfaction of building something myself, which I can heavily customize from the get-go. And, there is nothing better than seeing a plan come to fruition, especially when you're punching holes into the same hole at 50 yards. Let's face it; some things you cannot put a price tag on. And, that's why I will ONLY build vs. buy.
But, that approach is not for everyone. And, I respect and understand that.
Now, if you're looking to build an AR-15, your most economical route is to go with a rifle kit from a particular manufacturer.
Some of the the most economical rifle kits are from DPMS and Del-Ton. I personally think the DPMS Oracle ($519) and DPMS Sportical ($499) kits offer a great value for an entry-level AR-15 that still allows you to grow with and modify over time.
Del-Ton offers kits with varied configurations all at the same price ($470). Quality levels are decent-to-good (my father got one of these kits) and the upper half comes pre-assembled. So, it's a good choice if you're just getting into building your first AR-15.
With either of the aforementioned rifle kits you just need a lower receiver, which you can usually pick-up for anywhere between $75-$150+.
So, when all is said and done, you could be looking at building a full AR-15 for around $600-$700. And, that's a good amount of money saved which you can then throw into a good scope/optic.
Now, one thing to remember is that most rifle kits only include a front sight. They do not generally include a rear sight. So, if you're going to shoot with irons, or have the option to have a BUIS, you'll need to factor a rear sight into your overall cost of the build.
Again, when all is said and done, you'll probably be close to the price tag of a completely assembled rifle you purchase from your LGS. But, there are some who just want to build an AR-15. So, knowing what rifle kits are a good deal is probably valuable info to share.
In fact, if I built another "Econo-AR", I'd just go with one of the rifle kits I mention above.
So I am fairly new to this, but am extremely interested in building an AR. What I am looking for is 3 fold. One one hand I want something good for hunting, but I also want to build it to where it would double as being good for home defense and as an investment. Could anyone point me in a good direction?
So I am fairly new to this, but am extremely interested in building an AR. What I am looking for is 3 fold. One one hand I want something good for hunting, but I also want to build it to where it would double as being good for home defense and as an investment. Could anyone point me in a good direction?
Thanks!
Right now just about any AR is a good investment. If you are planning to build you better do it quickly before the parts supply dries up.
Surplus Arms and Ammo, Palmetto State Armory, Bravo Company, Stag Arms (to name a few) all have good prices on basically the same parts. Just different roll marks.
Surplus Arms and Ammo, Palmetto State Armory, Bravo Company, Stag Arms (to name a few) all have good prices on basically the same parts. Just different roll marks.
Ok sweet. Ill look into those. Hey Woodstock, are you located in Woodstock? If so, I am pretty close to you. It would be cool to get some pointers. I don't think I am able to send pms here yet.
No, that's just an old nick name from my time in the military. I am actually about 7mi from downtown Athens. I have a Nicholson address. Where you at?
Oh, well that makes sense, kinda far though. I am pretty much between Marietta and Woodstock. I can probably figure it out. I'm doing some extensive research, just like firsthand wisdom better. It seems like everything is sold out right now, what do you guys think is the likely hood of another ban occurring?
Be glad to help in any way I can. I think it is probably 50-50 right now as far as a ban goes but I try to be optimistic. I think many have decided it's a foregone conclusion. We have the Republican majority in the house as well as a number of pro gun dems. I personally think that the only way it will happen is if BO signs an executive order and then I'm not sure it would stand up to Supreme Court scrutiny. Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. There kind of like ass holes, everyone has one and most of them stink.
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