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Old 02-20-2007, 01:31   #1
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Tactical "alternative" to the AR-15

Remington is touting this new tactical pump version of their 7615 rifle as an "alternative sporting arm choice" compared with the AR-15. Not sure exactly in what sense they mean it is an "alternative", but from their word "sporting", I wonder if they mean just for hunting and target shooting applications, not necessarily for true tactical?

In any case, what do you think of this rifle? I like the 10-shot mag, and the idea of a pump as a rapid-fire repeater alternative to a semiauto is interesting, especially if the gun banners gain momentum in Congress. This may be an interesting fallback option, though it wouldn't be my first choice, definitely I wouldn't choose this OVER an AR. I have a hard time believing a Remington semiauto could come anywhere near to an average AR's accuracy.

Model 7615 Tactical Features

  • Unique carbine-style rifle is the perfect alternative sporting arm choice to the AR-15
  • 10-round detachable magazine box
  • Parkerized finish
  • Knoxx® SpecOps™NRS™(Non Recoil Suppressing) stock
  • Standard 7600 synthetic fore-end with sling swivel studs


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Tactical "alternative" to the AR-15-remmy7615.jpg  
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Old 02-20-2007, 12:30   #2
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I got serious about checking this gun out a few months ago when I was looking for a .223, long story short I skipped on it, even after reading a somewhat positive review of it in a magazine.
The gun writer stated that it was intended for police depts where AR's are not allowed and mini's are not favored.
Most everything on the gun functions like their popular shotgun police depts already use. This is why I don't care for it,....pump, aim, shoot, pump, re-aquire target, aim, shoot, pump....etc....not a good scenario for moving targets or fast repeated firing when you consider how fast and easy you can shoot repeatedly with an AR or mini.

If they would have made it a true semi-auto where you just pump once to chamber the first round I would be on board, it uses AR mags, and AR stocks, it could have been a great lil' rifle.

Last edited by Mrblackguns; 02-20-2007 at 12:34.
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Old 02-20-2007, 15:02   #3
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Yeah...no thanks to a pump action .223. Hell, I'd take a bolt action .223 over it just because it would be inheritely more accurate.
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Old 02-20-2007, 17:10   #4
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Volquartsen Evolution?

While not really a tactical choice, I do wish someone would do a first-hand customer review of the Evolution. While pretty pricey and on the heavy side, it does seem to fill a market niche...

https://www.volquartsen.com/vc//page...tems.jsp?id=10


Evolution

01/17/07 Update: We have finally started to ship the Evolution in the .223 caliber. This was a very limited shipment but we are anticipating a much larger shipment within the next few weeks. We apologize for the delays that we have encountered in the production of this rifle. There were a few design changes that were made to enhance both the accuracy and performance of the rifle. The quality of this rifle is second to none in the semi auto centerfire market.


Introducing ... the Volquartsen Evolution, our very first semi-auto, tack driving centerfire rifle. It's a logical next step in our growth and a worthy addition to our line of world class custom firearms.

Like all Volquartsen custom firearms, we designed and manufacture the Evolution right by using our own CNC-machined stainless steel receivers, trigger guard, bolt and other exclusive precision parts as well as our own custom-rifled barrels. In time-tested .223 caliber or hot new .204 Ruger, Evolution is a gas-operated powerhouse that's equally at home on a bench at your favorite range, or on the hunt for western prairie dogs, eastern woodchucks, or all-too universal coyotes. With an Evolution equipped with virtually any AR-15 magazine, you're ready to start making a statement with headshots or x-rings at any distance. Want to see what real centerfire performance is all about? Look for an Evolution at your local gun shop or shooting range. They'll be everywhere soon.

Evolution .204 [VC24EV] Retail Price: $2117.24
Evolution .223 [VC23EV] Retail Price: $2117.24

SPECIFICATIONS FOR VOLQUARTSEN EVOLUTION CENTERFIRE RIFLE
Receiver
Stainless Steel CNC machined receiver features a Picatinny scope mount machined into the top of the receiver for maximum rigidity.

Action
Gas operated semi-auto

Barrel
.223 - Stainless steel 20" barrel (21.5" with optional 32 hole compensator), .204 - Stainless steel 24"

Trigger
CNC machined trigger guard featuring all hardened CNC machined internal components - approximately 3.5 lb. triger pull

Weight
10lbs.

Magazine
One (1) 10-round magazine included. Any AR15 or AR15-style magazine will work with this rifle.

Last edited by stevekaw; 02-20-2007 at 17:14.
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Old 02-20-2007, 17:23   #5
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Steve, agreed this is one interesting looking rifle. I was looking at these recently when I was over at their site to look at their 22 magnum rimfires. They claim its accuracy should be very high, and above all, I like the fact it uses AR mags!!! The price tag is nasty, but let's say for the sake of argument that this thing can shoot sub MOA. Imagine that: a true tack-driving semiauto with unlimited mags, and a robust design. It's a bit on the heavy side, but for a tack driver, I'd pay that "weight tax" happily.

IF I read multiple rave reviews of this thing, and IF I reach a point where I have an annual bonus or tax refund laying around unallocated, I might just grab one. On paper at least, it looks like it could address some of the Mini-14's shortcomings, though it will never fit into the "lightweight carbine" category.

Its main challenge will be, with AR-15's relatively cheap (compared to this gun) and abundant, plus they are every bit as accurate as this thing claims to be, it's going to be a hard sell to think about paying so much more money to get a gun that essentially won't shoot any better than a typical AR. In fact, it occurs to me that unless this thing is EXTREMELY accurate, it'll be competing directly with the target Mini, and that might be a case where the target Mini would win, on price alone! Anyway, this will likely occupy a very small niche market, because your tactical-type people will just shrug and say, "I'll take an AR thank you," and your wood and steel, "guns-are-for-hunting" type of crowd will think it's silly to spend so much for a semiauto when you can have a very deluxe bolt gun (like a Cooper) for a LOWER price. What does that leave? I suppose a few specialty competition and benchrest shooters, depending on how accurate this thing is. You'd have to REALLY love wasting varmints to spend this much for a varmint gun!

Last edited by timlt; 02-20-2007 at 17:32.
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Old 02-20-2007, 18:00   #6
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In regards to the Remington pump .223 rifle , I work with a guy who recently bought one. He says it is very, very accurate. BUT he reloads and is having some major problems with his reloads chambering each time. Believe me, this fella is into reloading and guns big-time so it is not like he is an amateur.
He liked the idea of being able to use AR-15 mags in it, but is ready to sell it now.
Jeff
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Old 02-20-2007, 20:03   #7
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Yeah Rugerman, despite all the interesting efforts going on out there, it always seems to come back to this. For the price, it's hard to beat the accuracy and reliability of the good old AR. Or the class Mini, for that matter.
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Old 02-21-2007, 00:52   #8
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Originally Posted by timlt View Post
For the price, it's hard to beat the accuracy and reliability of the good old AR.
I have to agree with timlt on this one. For those looking for one 223/5.56 weapon I dont think the AR can be beat for the money. You can get the weapon down to the 32" range with a 16" barrel and collapsable stock allowing you the longer range offered by the barrel and the compact size of a CQB weapon. Try that with a Mini-14, that remington pump, or a kel-tec. All this along with the HUGE parts market for the AR and you will have a winner.
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:13   #9
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I had a mini 14, and traded it in on an AR, for the same reason I own 1911's, they are already great weapons, and the parts market is huge for them, they are actual more economical to buy in the long run, because as I found out with my mini, buy the time you have it up to an AR's level the gun that started out cheaper now has more money in it than if you'd just bought an AR instead.
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Old 02-21-2007, 08:34   #10
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Originally Posted by Mrblackguns View Post
I had a mini 14, and traded it in on an AR, for the same reason I own 1911's, they are already great weapons, and the parts market is huge for them, they are actual more economical to buy in the long run, because as I found out with my mini, buy the time you have it up to an AR's level the gun that started out cheaper now has more money in it than if you'd just bought an AR instead.
I hear you, yet I'm really glad that I had the option of buying BOTH a Mini and an AR, because I like them for different reason. Not counting optics, a scout rail. and a new stock (all of which were optional add-ons and not necessary for accurization), I basically spent about $880 to get a brand new Mini, and get it accurized to the point that it can shoot consistent 3 and 4-shot groups of about 1.15". For a brand new AR, which is more accurate out of the box, and has a White Oak upper designed for service rifle matches, and a RR match lower, I paid about $100 more. It's possible to get or build a good AR for less, but for the particular match-quality, more accurate one that I wanted, I had to spend in that range. I'm pleased with the deals I got on both rifles, and I like them both in different shooting situations.

What's interesting to me is, despite all the efforts going on out there to create some viable alternatives, like the Volquartsen in Steve's post, or the Remington I used to start this thread, it seems like companies have a hard time striking a balance among quality, reliability, performance (accuracy), and value, and achieving that total balance better than the AR and the Mini-14 have already done. Though we all have things we'd change about both these rifles if we could, you have to admit, the makers of AR's and the Mini do a LOT of things right, too. There's a reason both guns are so popular.
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:40   #11
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+1, timIt!
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Old 02-21-2007, 11:16   #12
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Originally Posted by timlt View Post
I hear you, yet I'm really glad that I had the option of buying BOTH a Mini and an AR, because I like them for different reason. Not counting optics, a scout rail. and a new stock (all of which were optional add-ons and not necessary for accurization), I basically spent about $880 to get a brand new Mini, and get it accurized to the point that it can shoot consistent 3 and 4-shot groups of about 1.15". For a brand new AR, which is more accurate out of the box, and has a White Oak upper designed for service rifle matches, and a RR match lower, I paid about $100 more. It's possible to get or build a good AR for less, but for the particular match-quality, more accurate one that I wanted, I had to spend in that range. I'm pleased with the deals I got on both rifles, and I like them both in different shooting situations.

What's interesting to me is, despite all the efforts going on out there to create some viable alternatives, like the Volquartsen in Steve's post, or the Remington I used to start this thread, it seems like companies have a hard time striking a balance among quality, reliability, performance (accuracy), and value, and achieving that total balance better than the AR and the Mini-14 have already done. Though we all have things we'd change about both these rifles if we could, you have to admit, the makers of AR's and the Mini do a LOT of things right, too. There's a reason both guns are so popular.
Actually, despite a couple short comings of the Mini's and AR's and AK's, they are next to perfect for what they are.

As a wise man once said, "You can have it quick, have quality, or have it inexpensive. Pick two!"

There's a balance to everything and it is next to impossible to perfect that balance. Those three guns have truly done it.
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:09   #13
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Originally Posted by Rugermann View Post
In regards to the Remington pump .223 rifle , I work with a guy who recently bought one. He says it is very, very accurate. BUT he reloads and is having some major problems with his reloads chambering each time. Believe me, this fella is into reloading and guns big-time so it is not like he is an amateur.
He liked the idea of being able to use AR-15 mags in it, but is ready to sell it now.
Jeff
Tell him to throw his $#$#@^$#^ RCBS dies in the ^%$&%& creek!


BTW, Remington has been making a fine pump action that's very accurate for some time. It's also available in synthetic, for those of you in the mall ninja union! If you prefer a pistol caliber, those have only been around for a century or so. My first .22 was a Winchester 1906, and it's just damn near as fast as a semi-auto.

Last edited by Travis Morgan; 02-21-2007 at 12:13.
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Old 02-21-2007, 13:38   #14
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ahh yes, the ol' carnival shooters...did they use 22 short or standard?

In all fairness I see the rem. carbine as a fine home defense weapon, and the L.E. agencies using the rem. shotgun will find it a very fimiliar weapon, but as far as a serious tactical weapon, it's not even in the ballpark untill they make an actual semi-auto version.

Last edited by Mrblackguns; 02-21-2007 at 13:42.
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Old 02-21-2007, 14:29   #15
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Originally Posted by timlt View Post
Remington is touting this new tactical pump version of their 7615 rifle as an "alternative sporting arm choice" compared with the AR-15. Not sure exactly in what sense they mean it is an "alternative", but from their word "sporting", I wonder if they mean just for hunting and target shooting applications, not necessarily for true tactical?

In any case, what do you think of this rifle? I like the 10-shot mag, and the idea of a pump as a rapid-fire repeater alternative to a semiauto is interesting, especially if the gun banners gain momentum in Congress. This may be an interesting fallback option, though it wouldn't be my first choice, definitely I wouldn't choose this OVER an AR. I have a hard time believing a Remington semiauto could come anywhere near to an average AR's accuracy.

Model 7615 Tactical Features
  • Unique carbine-style rifle is the perfect alternative sporting arm choice to the AR-15
  • 10-round detachable magazine box
  • Parkerized finish
  • Knoxx® SpecOps™NRS™(Non Recoil Suppressing) stock
  • Standard 7600 synthetic fore-end with sling swivel studs
This weapon reeks of things to come ... Cali type P.C. weapons. In fact, S.F.P.D. apparently bought these because the Mini was too military or deadly or something (source: gunrun45). Perhaps it has something to do with the similar controls to the 870s that cops might like? Regardless, I can't see how a pump would ever hold a candle to my Mini or AR. Sure, it's the rifleman, not the rifle. BUT, I could never personally justify the replacement of a semi-auto for a pump in a LE or military situation.

5L
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Old 02-21-2007, 14:33   #16
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The only thing I question is the buttstock configuration. It looks weird with that downward angle. Bill T.
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Old 02-21-2007, 14:51   #17
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Originally Posted by 5legion View Post
This weapon reeks of things to come ... Cali type P.C. weapons. In fact, S.F.P.D. apparently bought these because the Mini was too military or deadly or something (source: gunrun45). Perhaps it has something to do with the similar controls to the 870s that cops might like? Regardless, I can't see how a pump would ever hold a candle to my Mini or AR. Sure, it's the rifleman, not the rifle. BUT, I could never personally justify the replacement of a semi-auto for a pump in a LE or military situation.

5L
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't choose something like this OVER an AR or a Mini for tactical use, given a choice. And I think you're probably right on the 870 connection (I've seen Rem. make that type of connection in their marketing literature for their pump-action stuff before).

The reason I brought this rifle up was, I'm wondering out loud about the hypothetical "worse case" scenario where anti-second amendment rights people and Jim Zumbo get their way with an all-out AWB, and I'm just trying to imagine, in a situation like that, what kinds of rifles might slip under their radar and come up as civilian alternatives?
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Old 02-21-2007, 15:11   #18
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Worst case scenario, it's black with a detachable mag and optional pistol grip, = 3 strikes from the anti's.
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Old 02-21-2007, 15:43   #19
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Originally Posted by Mrblackguns View Post
Worst case scenario, it's black with a detachable mag and optional pistol grip, = 3 strikes from the anti's.
But it's pump action which instantly makes the other three okay.

All that is going to happen if PD's buy this thing is the second they come in contact with some loon with a high cap rifle, they'll just go "Wah! We were out-gunned and I don't know why!"

You know, Wyatt Earp didn't whine and complain about criminals with better rifles than him because he'd just round up a posse, get better guns then the criminals and go kick some ace. Do you think that when six shooters came out the law just said, "Meh...I'll just stick with my single shot black powder pistol." Hell no. The next city official or police official that I hear complaining about being out-gunned when THEY could easily fix it (God knows PD's waste enough money they could afford some patrol rifles), I'm going to find where they live and I'm going to puke on them because that's how sick I am about hearing it all the time!

Here's something for them. It is the world's tiniest violin.
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Old 02-21-2007, 18:57   #20
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Hey Travis,

My buddy at work uses Dillion dies, not RCBS!

Never ASSume dude.

Jeff
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Old 02-21-2007, 23:42   #21
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Originally Posted by rsidner View Post
But it's pump action which instantly makes the other three okay.

All that is going to happen if PD's buy this thing is the second they come in contact with some loon with a high cap rifle, they'll just go "Wah! We were out-gunned and I don't know why!"

You know, Wyatt Earp didn't whine and complain about criminals with better rifles than him because he'd just round up a posse, get better guns then the criminals and go kick some ace. Do you think that when six shooters came out the law just said, "Meh...I'll just stick with my single shot black powder pistol." Hell no. The next city official or police official that I hear complaining about being out-gunned when THEY could easily fix it (God knows PD's waste enough money they could afford some patrol rifles), I'm going to find where they live and I'm going to puke on them because that's how sick I am about hearing it all the time!

Here's something for them. It is the world's tiniest violin.
I love it , LOL......AMEN!......LOL

But seriously do you think the anti-gun lobby will see the black finish, AR mag well, and pistol grip and even know what a pump action is and say it's o.k.? Seriously....what makes the antis so dangerous in part is their unfathomable ignorance.
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Old 02-22-2007, 08:44   #22
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Mr. Blackguns,

They were made in both configurations, and, I think, .22 mag.. Remington DOES make a centerfire semi-auto, which, I'm told, is pretty accurate.

Jeff,

Taking the time to post that definitely make YOu the ass.
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Old 02-22-2007, 09:38   #23
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Originally Posted by Travis Morgan View Post
Mr. Blackguns,

They were made in both configurations, and, I think, .22 mag.. Remington DOES make a centerfire semi-auto, which, I'm told, is pretty accurate.

Jeff,

Taking the time to post that definitely make YOu the ass.
Travis, stop trolling. You are clearly just trying to start arguments. Jeff was correcting an assumption that you made about something that you knew nothing about.
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Old 02-22-2007, 19:15   #24
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Originally Posted by Travis Morgan View Post
Mr. Blackguns,

They were made in both configurations, and, I think, .22 mag.. Remington DOES make a centerfire semi-auto, which, I'm told, is pretty accurate.

Jeff,

Taking the time to post that definitely make YOu the ass.
WHAAAT?
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Old 02-23-2007, 18:17   #25
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since the zumbo fiasco I've spent alot of time on the brady campaign's website, here's a list of the guns they have listed which they want banned
1) all shotguns ( too much chance of a lethal hit at close range)
2) all handguns ( too easy to conseal)
3) the 22 LR (it will supposedly slip through the seams of police body armour)
4) the 30/30 win (on 3 occasions since its introduction in 1892, it has been used 3 times against police in body armour, with the policeman losing his life each time)
5) any cartridge that will penetrate body armour ( this is any caliber suitable for varmint or big game hunting)
6) assault rifles ( any rifle with a detachable mag or a fixed mag which holds 10 rounds or more)
7) sniper rifles (any rifle equipped with a telescopic site which would enable you to hit a target at 100 meters or more)
8) 50 BMG (they can be used to shoot planes down, derail traincars, destroy electric substations)
So if the liberals get they're way we'll be left with the 32/20, 25/20, and the 44/40, don't kid yourself, they want them all
RR
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