I almost believe! (after blaspheming the M16/AR15 for many years)
Now I am real real close to actually shelling out the 850 or so to get an accurate Bushy or so...Because:
1) Inexpensive ammo
2) Available Hicaps at so so prices
3) Pinpoint accuracy
Mostly the accuracy issue, especially if we have an urban meltdown here back east accuracy is important in not shooting good guys in the general mayhem of riot and unrest...
So... the big bugaboo is the reliability issue! Jessica Lynch, Early Vietnam, blah blah blah. I know they fixed some of the original probs, but still... I have always had a black cloud of doubt about these rifles in the back of my mind... BUT
In an urban environment, kept in a truck or trunk or closet, not in a fox hole and sand storm... maybe the AR series is good enough.
So... in an environment like the east coast of the USA, ie high humidity, no sand, etc... how often do you have to realistically clean these rifles? 300 rounds? 500 rounds? 1000 rounds?
How bad does the action get fouled with that sort of system?
i was an infantry soldier for 4 years. belonged to the likes of the mighty 3rd id to the 2nd id in korea.
realistically there is no bullet count. what you should do is a thorough wipe down before every mission (or after) all that entails is opening it up pulling out the bolt an wiping it off well. rub on some more oil. do the chamber an the upper slide area where the cocking lever rides. clan out the insides of the upper an ensure the trigger mech is not dirty with grit an grime. if time run a few patches down the barrel.
best thing too is to get a .50 cal brush. there made of nylon an round. use it too knock off an wipe down the exterior. make sure it is correctly oiled. too much it will jam. not enough it feeds slow.
that should keep you combat effective.
im a firm believer that jessica lynch never fired a round. she probably didnt even have one in the chamber
1) Jessica Lynch and company were part of a maintenance convoy that strayed into an Iraqi ambush - not a rifle company ready at that moment to fight. They probably knew it was wiser to give up there than to go out in a blaze of glory on the spot - therefore an M-16 cannot be blamed for the company's capture.
2) In my entire life I have never heard of an -A1 or higher series AR-15/M-16 that has been properly and periodically cleaned failing in combat. I've pumped a lot of rounds rapidly through my Bushy and never had any jamming problems with the gun - not once.
3) general rules of thumb for AR maintenance - a) clean out and lubricate the gun at the end of every shooting session or every 1000-1500 rounds, whichever comes first. B) cleaning / lubrication / inspection frequency is dependent on ambient climate, humidity, and presence of debris - low conditions, low maintenance, high conditions - high maintenance. Also take preventative measures to protect the gun against ingestion of debris - dont let mags touch the ground - ever, close the ejection port door when carrying or resting rifle. In short, treat the gun as you would a precision piece of machinery becuase it is just that.
4) people praise the AK-47 for its reliability under extreme stress. That's great but one must remember (and I don't mean to offend AK owners when I say this) that the AK-47 is designed from its blueprints up to be a dirt cheap battle rifle for use by a third world conscript who probably can't even read rather than an educated volunteer soldier or militiaman who knows his equipment and demands high standards of performance. Again I not trying to piss off AK owners when I say this; I like AKs. But I do think that the AR-15/M-16 system is better in terms of firepower volume, quality, performance, and, with proper care, reliability.
Originally posted by AR15_Fanatic@Mar 5 2004, 01:06 AM A few things
1) Jessica Lynch and company were part of a maintenance convoy that strayed into an Iraqi ambush - not a rifle company ready at that moment to fight.* They probably knew it was wiser to give up there than to go out in a blaze of glory on the spot - therefore an M-16 cannot be blamed for the company's capture.
I'm sorry to disagree, but I have friends over there that are in different units, some have come home but most are still over there. NONE of them if put in that spot would role over and surrender! NONE of them are not prepared for a fire fight when travelling through hostile areas! NONE of them believe it would be "wiser" to "give up" and be tortured and killed slowely over hours, days, and weeks as a prisoner of war. They'd rather "go out in a blaze of glory" killing as many of the enemy as possible. They ALL know that once in that situation they are going to die if they can't shoot their way out. Geneva convention on POW's, iraq lost their copy... So why surrender and die being turtured by your enemy?
As far as the M16 working/not working over there, from what I've heard first hand from soldiers in Iraq is that NOTHING works right over there with sand in it, and the sand gets into everything.
edit: Sorry my post is off the original topic, but saying our boys and girls over there aren't smart enough to know after the last war over there that prisoners are tortured and killed and therefore give up without a fight really hit a nerve. Give our boys and girls over there some credit will you, they're risking their lives in a desert full of people that hate American, and a few get captured and you turn on them and say stuff like "there probably wasn't a round in the chamber".
I'm sure the fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters of those boys and girls killed in that unit would take you out back and turn you inside out for your comments about their kids surrendering without a fight. They died for this country!
That's all I'm going to say, I have to go cool off.
I hauled one of mine around for two weeks in the extended cab section of the truck. Throwing the Carharts, boots and other things on top of it. Pulled it out, lock and load.....never missed a lick through four thirty round mags. I don't live where there's a lot of sand but mud and dirt are everywhere around here. I'm in the construction side of my business and the clothes can get pretty dirty. Laying on top of the AR, dried mud falling onto and into it made no difference.
Once dropped it going through the woods at the farm. Got some mud and crap in and on it. Wiped it with my shirt and it never failed. I beleive that all of the hoopla is from the early years when there were powder issues and such. That stuff has been taked care of a long time ago.
1) Cleaning the AR, just make it a habit to give a good cleaning everytime you leave the range. It is an easy rifle to clean. If you only shoot 100 or so rounds and you are not in a dirty area, run a swab thru the barrel or a boresnake with some CLP and call it good. Then you can clean every other trip. If you are leaving it in storage for longer than a week or so, clean it then. I know some very good match shooters who enter matches with 50-100 rounds previously fired and do very well, they say there rifle shoots better dirty. Myself, I just clean it at the range when I am done. It's easy. I never know when I am going to the range next. I treat all my rifles this way due to the fact that they cost me money and maintain their value better when treated nicely.
2) Scruffy, I was in an Engineering/Landing Support Unit (USMC) 26 years ago, the M16A2 my primary weapon. I don't discount that those kids over there are brave or that they are willing to fight but I do agree that the Maintenance, Engineering, etc.. Units are not normally ready for firefights ( the combat units should always be ready) and that most of the time they most likely do not have a round in the tube. I have seen them on t.v. without mags in the rifle walking around. It depends on the units and the leaders. I don't think that AR Fanatic was meaning anything disrespectful towards the troops but pointing out that they are not always prepared even though they are in hostile territory. This is not their fault but the fault of the command leadership and training for their MOS.
__________________ "I have no issues with people of all types being here, I do have a problem with the more extreme ends of any spectrum trying to dominate and push out moderates and opposites." Bill Plein
edit: Sorry my post is off the original topic, but saying our boys and girls over there aren't smart enough to know after the last war over there that prisoners are tortured and killed and therefore give up without a fight really hit a nerve.
This is a bit fallacious. I'm sure every man and woman in uniform and on the ground in Iraq knew about Saddam & company's reputation for brutality, murder, death, and torture. All of them knew that those risks existed. And I'm sure - in fact I know - from military acquaintenances that went over there - that EVERYONE was scared going in to this. And to feel so proves that you ARE intelligent and human. I once heard the word "courage" was defined as feeling fear but dealing with it with grace and compose. Given the hell that these poor kids had to endure as "guests" of Saddam, I would say that they indeed lived up to that definition of courage.
On the subject of giving up without a fight - exactly what happened when they were captured, I don't know. I will say that it is possible that they felt so overwhelmed or surrounded by enemy soldiers that a fight did not seem feasible or plausible. It is also possible - and I will explain why I say this - that an order for the unit commander on site was given to the company to surrender. This sounds bizarre and, to some, almost blasphemous, but the said order (it is possible) could have been done in order to save the lives of the men under him/her and to ensure their humane treatment at POWs. The reasoning for this is that if an order to resist and engage had been given, they are outnumbered here and outgunned and if they managed to kill an enemy the following firefight, a strong possibility exists that this kill could incite a fury or blood frenzy in the iraqis which could cause the slaughter of the whole company by the iraqis as an act of vengenance for their fallen comrade. An incident like this occured during WWII when the US lost Wake Island to the Japanese. The marine commander on the island ordered his men to surrender to the invaders (contradictory to USMC doctrine) but in doing so saved his men. In fact Tokyo sent a telegram to the invading Japanese forces ordering that the Americans defending Wake be spared execution for this reason.
Give our boys and girls over there some credit will you, they're risking their lives in a desert full of people that hate American, and a few get captured and you turn on them and say stuff like "there probably wasn't a round in the chamber".
I would not be surprised if EVERY member of PerfectUnion gives these people credit for their heroism. I know I do!
I have a son entering the Army this July. He wants to become an Army Ranger. (I also have two sons in the Air Force.) I have a real personal interrest in this issue. His recruiters have told hime that the Army is extending training so that all recruits will now go to infantry school after basic no matter what their MOS. The Army seems to be migrating towards the long held belief of the Marines. You are infantry first and foremost. When not needed for that, you do what your next primary responsibility is.
Recently I read a book called "The March Up". It follows the 1st Marine Division form Kuwait to Baghdad. One sentence talks of how the soldiers cleaned their weapons at least 5 times oper day. The sargents were relentless about this. I would too no matter what I was carrying. Sand is the enemy of all moving parts. I bet even AK's have died due to poor maitenance.
As for what happened in Iraq, surrender was the only viable option if the wapons were not working. These are reservists. Very little time was "wasted" training outside their dedicated mission. Probably didn't fire their weapons more than once a year if that. This is all changing. I would even hazard a guess that the weapons they had were not up to the quality given to front line troops. Batteries were dead and they could not call for help. Only one soldier seems to have taken any offensive operations. He killed six Iraqi's who were trying to set up a mortar. Even he stated that his weapon was down to single shot operation.
WE THE PEOPLE did not provide adequate training to these people. Before the past few years how many of us referred to the Reserves and National Guard as "weekend warriors". This was not a term of praise. They trained as directed and then were put into a situation which they were not properly trained to deal with.
I still have one question that I have not heard answered. To get into the situation in the first place, they had to take a wrong turn down a road that had a roadblock set up on it. Why didn't the troops manning the roadblock stop them?
I'm a former Marine with the 15thMEU and (before they changed)13thMAU,and I've been all around the world(twice) training in different countries,and I KNOW the AR-15/M16 is a very capable weapon in any climate.....as long as precautions are taken!! In the desert,it is VITAL that the weapon be "sealed" as well as possible from the sand.....that means electrical tape on ALL joints,around trigger,around mag eject on both sides,and all other areas where dust might penetrate....Don't worry about the ability to fire with all that tape on it Cause alot of it will fly off with the first couple shots (hence the use of electrical tape instead of a VERY sticky tape). I've even seen guys take a black plastic trash bag and wrap it with tape all around the weapon,cutting holes for the ejection port,trigger and magwell....this also works well,but is frowned upon by some comands (even though they function perfectly).
But back to the original question!!!
I must confess that I don't perform a "Marine" cleaning on my AR's after every use,as that literly takes DAYS!! But I do try to feild strip them and clean the chamber,bolt carrier group,and bore every or every other time,depending on how much use. I'll perform a "Marine" cleaning maybe once a year.....This has worked for me. I also make sure to lube the carrier group well every time!!
Now my uncle was in Vietnam from '65 to '68 and he told me one day that he never once experienced problems with his M-16A1. He said that his company all got together after going out on patrol and cleaned their guns one at a time. They ran their brushes in from the muzzle instead of the chamber end. They also removed the bolt and washed it in diesel fuel first, then hot water, then dried and oiled it. Now I don't know it that'd work, I don't own an AR, and neither does my uncle, but he has never led me wrong before.
Iíve gotten into the 507th and Jessica Lynch thing to many times already. They were concentrating on their mission, recovering vehicles and ignored their weapons It was only for about thirty hours but too much in that environment. They were not reservists I am in their higher headquarters. The order to surrender was given by a sergeant and they really had no choice. She never fired a round she was in a HMMWV in the back between two soldiers and couldnít have. She does not remember. The HMMWV was hit by some kind of fire and was in a wreck the other four individuals were killed, three instantly and one died in captivity. She was unconscience during her capture. I donít have time to tell the whole story but in general they performed admirably all things considered. Our Service Support troops are traditionally under trained in combat skills, we are trying to fix that. So, back to the subject, If you are going to be in a dust storm the M16 requires a lot of maintenance otherwise it is not bad. I would choose it over all other choices for a battle. I have a bushy and love it. I just clean it every time I get back from the range. There is really no chance you will be in similar circumstances however go get a shaving brush if you are worried, best thing for sand. Also go light on the oil it attracts it.
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One of the best Service Rifle shooters and gunsmiths in the country, Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks, makes it a point to never do more than oil the action and run a patch through the bore just to illustrate the reliability of the system.
I clean after every outing because I can. Why would I treat a nice, expensive rifle that I paid for like a grunt stuck in a mud hole under artillery fire? That's just silly.
Originally posted by BeCoole@Mar 17 2004, 09:17 AM One of the best Service Rifle shooters and gunsmiths in the country, Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks, makes it a point to never do more than oil the action and run a patch through the bore just to illustrate the reliability of the system.
I clean after every outing because I can. Why would I treat a nice, expensive rifle that I paid for like a grunt stuck in a mud hole under artillery fire? That's just silly.
good point! thats why i bought my rifle! i know its a good camping/throw in the truck gun!